Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

[Sudo]

it's not weak to electric and blissey and zapdos are not good counters, i blissey switches in on seed flare and gets a special defense fall, it's killed by air slash flinch plus another seed flare, and if zapdosswitches in on seed flare it's easily killed by hp ice after the sp. def drop

Yeah, I forgot that Grass resists Electric, but it's also weak to poison, of all things. ;P

I could theorymon right back that Shaymin misses the Seed Flare when Blissey switches in, then get's OHKO'd by Blissey's Ice Beam when it misses the next turn with Air Slash. You see how this won't get us anywhere? :\

The major issue I have with people voting Skymin as an uber is that they proclaim that the luck it gets is unbearable, but they unable to answer the few questions I posted previously: what is too much luck? Why can we justify banning Skymin's luck (which mainly involves flinching) when there are still so many luck factors running rampant in our OU metagame? If eliminating luck the path to stabilizing OU, why haven't we done so already?

 

[lilyhollow]

not only is there a line that we need to define between what is/is not "too much luck," but it's a process in itself to decide whether Skymin is actually the "luckiest" pokemon in the game in the first place. Togekiss or Machamp being more luck-based than Skymin wouldn't be that surprising to me, particularly Togekiss, who has better defenses and support moves that arguably makes switching in counters who can reliably work around its luck more difficult.

You can't just say "85% hit rate? 80% activation rate? 60% flinch rate? so much luck!!!!" because maybe Skymin gets less chances on average to actually pull anything off with any of those statistics than a number of pokemon.

I'm not even saying that "there are definitely some pokemon who are probably more luck-based than Skymin." We do need more theory, though, if we want to say "Skymin is Uber because it is too luck-based." or just a more refined argument in general =/

 

[petrie911]

With all the talk of counters, here's an analysis of proposed Skymin counters--Crobat, Registeel, Regice, Dragonite, Tentacruel, Blissey, Heatran, Zapdos. All percentages are the chance of the pokemon surviving assuming worst-case scenario.

NOTE: all calcs assume Timid, 252sA/252Sp/4HP Skymin holding Leftovers

342HP/218At/186Df/339sA/186sD/388Sp

Crobat (100% except for HP Ice)
Skymin's Air Slash against 4HP/252sD Crobat: 34.5%-40.6% (59.5%-65.6% with Stealth Rock)
Skymin's Air Slash against 0HP/0sD Crobat: 45.5%-53.5% (70.5%-78.5% with Stealth Rock)
Crobat's 0At Brave Bird against Skymin: 88.7%-104.4% (Crobat takes anywhere from 1/3-1/4 of its health in recoil) (112 At EVs guarantees the kill)

So a particularly specially bulky Crobat can switch in on Skymin, kill it with Brave Bird, then Roost off the damage. A somewhat specialized counter, but perfectly functional. However, it will fail if Skymin has HP Ice and Crobat comes in on it.

Registeel (94%)
Looking at Max/Min (Max/Max) Registeel, we have
Earth Power--36.6%-43.0% (28.3%-33.2%)
Seed Flare--18.2%-21.4% (14%-16.5%)
Air Slash--11.5%-13.5% (8.89%-10.46%)

Meanwhile, Ice Punch does 64.6% minimum back to Skymin, so Skymin needs an obscene number of flinches to live through any Registeel with sDef investment. To beat a min atk Registeel, it needs at least 5 flinches (6%)

Regice (81%)
Assuming Max/Min Regice
Seed Flare--28.2%-33.1%
Air Slash--16.7%-19.7%
Earth Power--17.8%-21.0%

Regice's min satk Ice Beam has a chance of OHKOing Max/Max Skymin, so it's safe to say it's an OHKO for all practical purposes.

Even with Stealth Rock, Seed Flare cannot 2HKO Regice. Best case scenario, in which Regice comes in on Seed Flare and Stealth Rock is down, Skymin needs 2-4 flinches (about 19% overall) to KO Regice.

Dragonite (bulky versions are 100% except for HP Ice)
Dragonite is a guaranteed counter if it does not come in on a double sDef drop. if it does, it needs either 140 sDef EVs and a +sDef nature or 248 sDef EVs and a neutral nature. Those EVs can be moved into HP, but it will take more total EVs. With a neutral nature and 252 HP EVs, you still need 52 sDef EVs to guarantee the lack of KO. Both of those are assuming leftovers. It cannot counter any version with HP Ice. Dragonite's Ice Beam is an easy OHKO, but even a max attack Outrage (barely) fails to OHKO. Thus, BulkyNite should make a good Skymin counter.

Tentacruel (67.5% with Clear Body)
Assuming Max/Max Tentacruel
Seed Flare--32.9%-38.7%
Air Slash--20.8%-24.5%
Earth Power--33.1%-39.0%

Tentacruel's Ice Beam does 86% minimum to Skymin.

If Tenta comes in on a double sDef drop, it cannot counter. Clear Body negates this, but it then cannot deal with Leech Seed. Without the double sDef drop, Skymin needs to flinch twice (32.5%) to guarantee the kill.

Blissey (81%)
Assuming 252Df/176sA/80sD Calm
Seed Flare--19.1%-22.5%
-2 Seed Flare--37.8%-44.4%
Air slash--12.1%-14.2%
-2 Air Slash--23.8%-28.0%

With those sA EVs, Blissey's Ice Beam is a guaranteed OHKO. If Blissey comes in on a double sDef drop, Skymin needs 2 flinches to win. If there isn't a double sDef drop, Skymin needs at least 7 flinches to win. Overall, the odds of Skymin beating Blissey is 19%

Heatran (not a counter)
Heatran cannot come in on Earth Power or Substitute. It works as a check, and can certainly outspeed and OHKO, but it has trouble switching in.

Zapdos (100% with Scarf, 85% without except for HP Ice)
Assuming Max/Max
Seed Flare--18.9%-22.2%
-2 Seed Flare--37.4%-44.0%
Air Slash--11.9%-14.0%
-2 Air Slash--23.5%-27.7%
HP Ice--29.7%-35.0%
-2 HP Ice--58.6%-68.9%

Zapdos's own HP Ice is an OHKO.

If Zapdos comes in on a double sdef drop, Skymin needs 2 flinches to beat Zapdos. If Zapdos does not come in on a double sdef drop, Skymin needs far too many flinches to be significant. With HP Ice, Zapdos is not a reliable counter. Scarf Zapdos is always a counter.

Lastly, it should be noted that CB Scizor does at most 71% with Bullet Punch. Thus, no Scizor cannot switch in safely on Seed Flare's double sdef drop. Skarmory has a nice set of resistances for this but also has issues with the double sDef drop. Metagross does even less than Scizor with Bullet Punch and really doesn't like Earth Power. These are all checks, but not exactly counters. Any Scarfed sweeper or base 130er that isn't OHKO'd by Skymin's attacks and can OHKO it back is a counter.

 

[Sudo]

Great post about Skymin's counters petrie911, but I do want to point out one mistake:

Lastly, it should be noted that CB Scizor does at most 71% with Bullet Punch. Thus, no Scizor cannot switch in safely on Seed Flare's double sdef drop. Skarmory has a nice set of resistances for this but also has issues with the double sDef drop. Metagross can reach the all-important 75% bullet punch point but doesn't like Earth Power. These are all checks, but not exactly counters. Any Scarfed sweeper or base 130er that isn't OHKO'd by Skymin's attacks and can OHKO it back is a counter.

CB Scizor has both STAB and Technician with Bullet Punch, coupled together with a 130 Attack stat, so I was surprised to read that it would hurt less than CB Metagross, whose base Attack stat is only 5 points higher.

Max Atk CB Metagross used Bullet Punch against Min/Min Skymin:
169 - 199 HP (54.52% - 64.19%)

Max Atk CB Scizor used Bullet Punch against Min/Min Skymin:
246 - 291 HP (79.35% - 93.87%)

Otherwise a good job, everything else seems to be in order. Another potential counter would be Cresselia, Levitate makes it immune to most entry hazards in addition to Skymin's Earth Power, and it has Calm Mind, Moonlight, Light Screen, and Ice Beam to put a damper on Skymin's parade.

 

[petrie911]

Great post about Skymin's counters petrie911, but I do want to point out one mistake:



CB Scizor has both STAB and Technician with Bullet Punch, coupled together with a 130 Attack stat, so I was surprised to read that it would hurt less than CB Metagross, whose base Attack stat is only 5 points higher.

Max Atk CB Metagross used Bullet Punch against Min/Min Skymin:
169 - 199 HP (54.52% - 64.19%)

Max Atk CB Scizor used Bullet Punch against Min/Min Skymin:
246 - 291 HP (79.35% - 93.87%)

Otherwise a good job, everything else seems to be in order. Another potential counter would be Cresselia, Levitate makes it immune to most entry hazards in addition to Skymin's Earth Power, and it has Calm Mind, Moonlight, Light Screen, and Ice Beam to put a damper on Skymin's parade.

D'oh...yeah, somehow I factored Technician in when calculating Scizor's damage and then forgot about it. But I'm not sure about your calculations. 0Df Skymin has 186 defense. I'm getting only 206-243 HP from Scizor's bullet punch. You seem to have forgotten that "min def" Skymin still has a 31 def IV.

Cresselia has it a bit harder than Blissey. She can easily OHKO Skymin with Ice Beam like Blissey (they have the same base satk), but she has half the base HP and slightly less base sdef. If she comes in on the double sDef drop, a second Seed Flare will likely KO, and certainly will if sandstorm is in play. Without the double sDef drop, Shaymin needs only 3 Flinches. This makes Cressy barely a 50% counter if she comes in on Seed Flare. She can work as another check, especially if you can get her in on Earth Power, but there's a bit more risk there.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Confirming that Petrie's calculations are correct. CB Scizor does 71% max.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Another potential counter would be Cresselia, Levitate makes it immune to most entry hazards in addition to Skymin's Earth Power, and it has Calm Mind, Moonlight, Light Screen, and Ice Beam to put a damper on Skymin's parade.

Cress still has to worry about the 68% chance from Seed Flare, though--even Rest Talk versions.

Timid 252 Skymin's Seed Flare vs. Calm 252 HP / 56 SpD Cress:

129-153 damage
29.05-34.46%

after -2 SpD:

258-304 damage
58.11-68.47%

That Cress's Ice Beam in retaliation does 79.77-95.01% to 0 HP Skymin.

So Rest Talk Cress could have a hard time switching in on Seed Flare.

Standard CMCress can OHKO with Ice Beam, but she will be 2HKO'd if Seed Flare gets the SpD drop. She will have an even harder time switching in on Seed Flare.

Nonetheless, I would consider Cress to be a good check if she wins the prediction war upon switching in. She's been a good-enough check for me.



Also, one little note on Heatran coming in on Substitute:

I haven't seen too many Substitute Skymin for some reason, but the ones I see most are SubSeeders with Air Slash and Seed Flare (instead of Earth Power like they probably should be; I would use that, anyway). ScarfTran can force them out with little trouble.

Just because we can (and probably should) assume that each Substitute Skymin will have Earth Power does not automatically mean that that is the case.

 

[petrie911]

the majority of those cannot counter a skymin that has life orb or choice specs/scarf the only skymin that runs leftovers is the subseeder

Life Orb Skymin looses health very quickly, especially if Sandstorm is in play, and probably won't have Sub, making it easier to take out with Prioirity. Specs and Scarf Skymin have issues with SR, and being locked into one move isn't very helpful. Especially when your main attacks are Grass, Flying, and Ground, all of which have common resisters in OU.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

the new requirements are a rating of at least 1655 and a deviation of at most 65

When you say 'Rating', do you mean 'Conservative Rating Estimate' ?

Also, how do you lower your deviation?

 

[Legacy Raider]

No, although this has been stressed so many times before, I'll clarify it one more time.

Let x be your maximum rating.
Let y be your minimum rating.

In order to vote, your rating average must be at keast 1655,
i.e. (x+y)/2 > 1654

Your deviation - half the difference between your maximum and minimum rating - must be less than or equal to 65,
i.e. (x-y)/2 < 66

LR.

 

[sbc]

Just some numbers to throw out there for y'all.

In the month that Shaymin-S was number 10, we have:
1. Heatran
2. Scizor
4. Zapdos
5. Blissey

I believe all of this is a result of a metagame with signs of compounding around Shaymin-S in order to stop it, even if Shaymin-S itself is not used as much as they are. More Heatran than ever before are using +Speed natures with Scarves, Scizor is a good pokemon in its own right and packs a powerful priority hit against Shaymin-S, Zapdos is a counter if it switches in while SR isn't up, and we can discuss over and over again but I believe Blissey's rise in popularity once more is due to Shaymin-S. Hell, in August, Zapdos was sitting way down at 23!

I wouldn't say that those usages have come around due to Skymin. Most Heatran were already scarfed since it is more or less the best revenge killer in the game, +Spe nature is mainly due to Skymin but more due to hype than anything. It's not as if Timid was non-existent on scarftran anyway.

Blissey is up there due to Zapdos getting Heatwave and being able to run HP Grass instead of HP Ice, making Swampert and Magnezone less able to stop it and meaning that random LO Zapdos are running around which pretty much need Blissey to stop it raping. Offensive Suicune is beastly also which has lead to Blissey being used more as has Garchomp's banning opening the door for Jirachi and Heatran.

Scizor checking Skymin is more coincidental, Bullet Punch means it can check and huge lot of things and is obviously a great all round pokemon.

If anything, the top 5 is centralised around itself rather than skymin.

 

[Objection]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, but (practically) anything with Ice Shard can revenge kill Skymin unless it has a substitute up, and even then some pokemon with Ice Shard won't be OHKO'd by Air Slash or Seed Flare.
This is just from experience and is not backed up by damage calcs, but one pokemon suited to the job is Weavile.

 

[Imran]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, but (practically) anything with Ice Shard can revenge kill Skymin unless it has a substitute up, and even then some pokemon with Ice Shard won't be OHKO'd by Air Slash or Seed Flare.
This is just from experience and is not backed up by damage calcs, but one pokemon suited to the job is Weavile.

The same applies to Rayquaza, your point?

 

[Zephiel]

Haha, good luck trying to switch that counter in to stop Wobbuffet! Or does every member of the team carry Taunt+Trick+a sleep move?

By countering I assumed that a pokemon would switch in after Wobbuffet killed something.

Shaymin doesn't rely on luck to be good; the luck is rather an extra bonus, much like Sand Veil on Garchomp. If Shaymin-S didn't have Serene Grace, I doubt Shaymin would seriously be considered for Ubers.

You can't possibly believe that. Without Serene Grace, Skymin would be nowhere near as common, maybe as less than half as common and I'm sure it would go to about the top 30.

Completely incorrect. Seed Flare has a 80% chance to decrease SpD and 60% to flinch (not factoring misses). Coupled with Shaymin's speed, special attack and Substitute, he has the perfect potential to abuse it.

Sand Veil on Garchomp and Shaymin-S's Serene Grace are completely different things. One is only accuracy (it doesn't even work while Sand Stream isn't active) - while one is the whole way in which the pokemon works. Sand Veil didn't influence Garchomp that much - Shaymin-S is a completely different pokemon thanks to Serene Grace (not completely different but I hope you got what I meant).

However it is rather frail, has a 4x weakness to Ice and 2x weakness to Electric, Fire, and Rock (all of which are among the most used types in OU), loses 25% of its health switching into Stealth Rock, is easily picked off by most priority moves, and actually has solid counters in Blissey, Zapdos, and Regice, two of which are already in the high echelon of OU. Scarf Heatran works just as fine with a careful switch in.

The advantages outweigh the disadvantages. We have discussed this before. A Shaymin-S can make a rookie beat a pro, simply because of the luck factor.

A Shaymin-S doesn't encourage skill, but encourages luck, which we do not look for in this metagame.

No one can do anything about luck. It comes and goes. Hell, the entire metagame is centered around luck; the only real skills in competitive battling as it is include making a team, and how efficiently you can execute that team's strategy in battle, through prediction and knowledge of the popular sets.

You can do something about luck. OHKO and Evasion moves are banned for that reason. Hopefully Shaymin-S will be too.

That is extremely important.. you underestimate the importance of that. Luck isn't as important as you say it is, but Shaymin-S encourages luck and increases it, thereby decreasing skill.

You can't control what team you're going to face (unless you're playing against yourself, haha), which could potentially contain a team that 100% counters your own! By allowing things like critical hits, fluctuating accuracy, flinch (heh), and the chance of not moving due to paralysis, how can the community ban a pokemon that abuses these things to its advantage? How can it ban anything to satisfy this "quota" of reducing luck? How much luck is too much? If the community really was striving to eliminate luck from the game, all of these factors would've been abolished by now. It's like giving a child toys, but forbidding the child to play with them.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44433

Aldaron's thread to get rid of all hax. That has all been discussed here.

Instead of banning moves and banning pokemon, you think that we would have banned critical hits and paralysis, freeze, etc. That's changing the script of the fucking game. No, that's not playing Pokemon, that's something else, which I doubt we will ever do.

Just because some of the best players think it's uber doesn't necessarily make it so, as documented throughout history..

You should have realised from the "since you value the best players so much" part that it was merely a reply to him, and not what I think.

 

[Objection]

The same applies to Rayquaza, your point?

Rayquaza has more power and more freedom of choice in his movepool. Can Skymin viably run any attacking moves besides Seed Flare and Air Slash? Rayquaza kills ice types with Overheat or Fire Blast.

 

[KingFresh]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, but (practically) anything with Ice Shard can revenge kill Skymin unless it has a substitute up, and even then some pokemon with Ice Shard won't be OHKO'd by Air Slash or Seed Flare.
This is just from experience and is not backed up by damage calcs, but one pokemon suited to the job is Weavile.

So, you're going to send in someone like Mamoswine and Weavile to Ice shard Skymin, to take a hit? When switching around, your Ice sharder will eventually die. Skymin simply goes to heatran which is common, then peck away at your "Skymin counter" and then rape the rest of your team.

Skymin/Tyranitar/Heatran/Zapdos/Lucario/Blissey OR Rotom OR Salamence

This is pretty much "Team Standard" nowadays. Look at how many free switches you get in that team, and 4x resists? Skymin plays a big part in this since it's switches always get great damage or set up great positions for its team.

I know every team can be countered, but the odds against Skymin are highly in Skymin's favor. In addition to Skymin being an untamed beast on its own, imagine in the hands of a good player that protects it often?

It's been proven that Skymin is a bit too powerful for OU and relies way too much on luck and the odds are in favor during those luck situations. You can't even compare SuperLuck + Night Slash or whatever else there is unless you make scope lens an accessible item. No comparison whatsoever, that argument is voided completely.

 

[Imran]

Rayquaza has more power and more freedom of choice in his movepool. Can Skymin viably run any attacking moves besides Seed Flare and Air Slash? Rayquaza kills ice types with Overheat or Fire Blast.

Well first of all how is it going to Overheat if its being hit by a priority move, second of all yes, Rayquaza is UBER as it has a wider movepool, it can also ExtremeSpeed slower Ice Sharders. Moving onto your main point, Skymin easily runs Earth Power and HP Ice which is all the coverage we needed. We banned Garchomp who 95% of the time was running EQ / SD / OR / FB so why do we give a damn about how many moves Skymin can viably use. Note also that Skymin can utilise Sub and Leech Seed to deal with some of it's "counters" As for common Ice Sharders none can switch into Skymin safely.

 

[Bologo]

The advantages outweigh the disadvantages. We have discussed this before. A Shaymin-S can make a rookie beat a pro, simply because of the luck factor.

So can lots of pokemon. Also, are pros supposed to magically win every single match? Are rookies supposed to lose every match? Another thing, when two pros of equal skill face each other, what's going to be the deciding factor? It's most likely going to be luck, so why is this luck factor a bad thing?

A Shaymin-S doesn't encourage skill, but encourages luck, which we do not look for in this metagame.

Ok, I'm sorry, but have you not been paying attention to the slippery slope that this statement causes? It's only been said several times throughout the entire thread.

Serene Grace Togekiss encourages luck, let's ban that. Jirachi encourages luck, let's ban that. Brightpowder and King's Rock encourage luck, let's ban those. Dunsparce encourages luck, let's ban that. Serene Grace Blissey encourages luck, let's ban that. Super Luck Absol encourages luck, let's ban that. Super Luck Honchkrow encourages luck, let's ban that. All moves with additional effects encourage luck, let's ban those. All moves with a high crit ratio encourage luck, let's go ahead and ban all of those.

How do you know we only encourage skill in this metagame anyway? Can you prove this? Why haven't we banned all of the above things if the metagame only encourages skill?

EDIT: I know what you're thinking, Skymin "abuses luck better than all of those things". I personally find that to be untrue. If you've ever tried something like an Iron Head Jirachi or an Air Slash Togekiss, you would know that those things are obscenely hard to kill with their defenses, and the 57% and 60% flinch rate on each of their moves (factoring in accuracy). Jirachi also has a billion resistances to go with his flinching ability and the defenses to abuse them, and a great 100 base Speed.

 

[Zephiel]

So can lots of pokemon. Also, are pros supposed to magically win every single match? Are rookies supposed to lose every match? Another thing, when two pros of equal skill face each other, what's going to be the deciding factor? It's most likely going to be luck, so why is this luck factor a bad thing?

The one with more skill should naturally win a battle, you can't deny this.

The luck factor I'm talking about is the one which Shaymin-S brings. Pros of exactly equal skill battling is naturally very rare. Shaymin-S doesn't require much skill to use and it can wreck teams with luck. A rookie can beat a pro simply because of Shaymin-S. Do we really want a metagame like that?

Serene Grace Togekiss encourages luck, let's ban that. Jirachi encourages luck, let's ban that. Brightpowder and King's Rock encourage luck, let's ban those. Dunsparce encourages luck, let's ban that. Serene Grace Blissey encourages luck, let's ban that. Super Luck Absol encourages luck, let's ban that. Super Luck Honchkrow encourages luck, let's ban that. All moves with additional effects encourage luck, let's ban those. All moves with a high crit ratio encourage luck, let's go ahead and ban all of those.

I've said many times that Shaymin-S abuses luck much better than any of those, because it has the perfect capabilities to do so, I'm sure many people agree with me on this. What you mentioned aren't as game breaking as Shaymin-S.

How do you know we only encourage skill in this metagame anyway?

Hahahahaha.

Why haven't we banned all of the above things if the metagame only encourages skill?

Perhaps because they're not as game breaking as Shaymin-S?

 

[lilyhollow]

A rookie can beat a pro simply because of Shaymin-S. Do we really want a metagame like that?

Nope. Thank God I haven't heard anyone actually complain about this actually happening, any more than I've heard complaints of crit/miss "hax."

I've said many times that Shaymin-S abuses luck much better than any of those, because it has the perfect capabilities to do so, I'm sure many people agree with me on this. What you mentioned aren't as game breaking as Shaymin-S.

Obviously you need to explain why and stop throwing around random statements as if they're somehow common knowledge.

 

[scorchedsky]

So where do you draw the line? Iron Head Jirachi isn't gamebreaking, but Skymin is? Choice Scarf Togekiss isn't gamebreaking, but Skymin is? Doesn't that sound like drawing an arbitrary line with no reason other than you think it's "gamebreaking?" How should we, as a community, define gamebreaking? I don't think we should just say "Skymin is too good, but Jirachi and Togekiss aren't," because then why isn't Skymin #1 in weighted usage? Jirachi and Togekiss use combined is actually greater than Skymin usage, by the way.

 

[Bologo]

Hahahahaha.

Oh yeah, very funny. Why don't you go and look in the analyses? You'll see that there are pokemon who have sets that abuse luck. Eg. The Evasion set for Cacturne. Why is this allowed on the analysis, if in fact, the metagame is ONLY based on skill?

Perhaps because they're not as game breaking as Shaymin-S?

Define "gamebreaking". From what I've seen, the metagame hasn't been "broken" in any way by Shaymin-S's presence, and I've been testing the thing from the very beginning of Platinum. It may be another threat to look out for, and I agree that it is a good pokemon, I'm just not convinced that it's uber. I mean, look at the other suspects. They don't have nearly as many disadvantages as Skymin compared to their advantages. They don't find it obscenely hard to come in again if they get forced out. They don't find it difficult to kill a pokemon if they don't have luck on their side (or defend against strong hits for defense-oriented suspects), etc, etc.

 

[Zephiel]

Okay, several people trying to counter what I say. This is going to make the thread worse, so I probably won't reply after this.

Obviously you need to explain why and stop throwing around random statements as if they're somehow common knowledge.

Because they are? Anyone with a good knowledge of Pokemon should be able to answer this question.

Shaymin can make 101 HP Substitutes, has Seed Flare, Air Slash, incredible speed, all perfectly abused.

Togekiss doesn't have any of that except Air Slash and it's speed is too low.

Jirachi doesn't have any of that except the Substitutes and it can't use the Substitutes as well as Shaymin-S.

No one uses Serene Grace Blissey.

Dunsparce is extremely slow and weak.

Absol and Honchkrow have Super Luck which in my opinion is not as good as Serene Grace (I can't comment on these well since I have never used them).

Banning moves would be outrageous to the other pokemon.

Oh yeah, very funny. Why don't you go and look in the analyses? You'll see that there are pokemon who have sets that abuse luck. Eg. The Evasion set for Cacturne. Why is this allowed on the analysis, if in fact, the metagame is ONLY based on skill?

You said "encourage", not based on. The metagame is clearly a little based on luck, with CH moves and all.

Define "gamebreaking". From what I've seen, the metagame hasn't been "broken" in any way by Shaymin-S's presence, and I've been testing the thing from the very beginning of Platinum. It may be another threat to look out for, and I agree that it is a good pokemon, I'm just not convinced that it's uber. I mean, look at the other suspects. They don't have nearly as many disadvantages as Skymin compared to their advantages. They don't find it obscenely hard to come in again if they get forced out. They don't find it difficult to kill a pokemon if they don't have luck on their side (or defend against strong hits for defense-oriented suspects), etc, etc.

I said as gamebreaking, by the way, I didn't say gamebreaking.

To be perfectly honest, I've noticed that Shaymin-S is a matter of personal opinion. Some people find it easy to deal with, some people find it hard to deal with. While I find it's dependence on luck hard to deal with, you seem to find it easy. I actually found Deoxys-S quite easy to deal with!

I also got quite high on the ladder with Seed Flare and Air Slash, you may not have had the same story.

They don't find it obscenely hard to come in again if they get forced out.

I disagree here. Stealth Rock is preventable (albeit common) and ground, water, fighting moves are really common. Prediction is also useful. It can also heal itself with Leech Seed. I've found it quite easy to get in.

 

[lilyhollow]

so Shaymin has a handful of options, "Togekiss and Jirachi don't have any of those specific moves so they're not as 'gamebreaking' whelp gotta go!!"

if I said "Togekiss has Thunderwave good defenses and two healing moves, Shaymin doesnt' have any of that!!!" it'd make my argument seem pretty nice too.

 

[the_artic_one]

I've said many times that Shaymin-S abuses luck much better than any of those, because it has the perfect capabilities to do so, I'm sure many people agree with me on this. What you mentioned aren't as game breaking as Shaymin-S.

No, shaymin has worse capabilities to abuse them, it's so fragile that it's very likely to die if it fails to flinch or if air slash misses.

When going for a hax based strategy, speed is irrelevant since Jirachi and Togekiss can use body slam/thunderwave to not only destroy the speed advantage, but also to make it even harder for the opponent to attack.

I've been 6-0'd by haxkiss and haxjirachi in the past because the one or two attacks that actually went off during the fight didn't OHKO them, this has never happened to me with skymin.