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Stop Using Him! (Dragonite Discussion)
- Thread starter RaikouLover
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Great thread RL, when i first started out on my shoddy days, i always used the DD-nite on the analysis, but with adamant, and everyone would get sooo pissed calling me a noob after i Ohko'ed their forretres or skarmory, and I never got what the difference is...until now. So thanks for answering that question :)
yeah, but you don't take the spatk drop, I run ice beam, thunderbolt, draco meteor, wish, if you ice beam the salamence/dragonite/etc you can stay in to draco meteor what ever comes next
While I can't disagree with you, I believe in the post what I am trying to explain is that Dragonite IS physically bulkier than Salamence on the Bulky Dragon Dance set because it is less susceptable to revenge kills. That Scizor switching in to BP you after you killed something is going to hit your Salamence that you just posted quite a bit harder than it will Dragonite. This is a misconception about Intimidate. It is NOT a permanant defense boost, hence why I never mentioned that Dragonite should be switching in on and countering physical threats and why I specifically said to remove countering Lucario / fighters from the equation. But in terms of overall defensive bulk, Dragonite is still bulkier than Salamence and there is no disputing that. Intimidate is a one-time thing to allow Salamence to switch in easier, that is all.
WOOT!!!! Clericnite owns RaikouLover!! Thanks for introducing me to it. It really helps me out when that damned Rotom burns my Metagross. I'm thinking of even putting it in for Latias (since Latias has no place in my team anyway). Really a nice thread. I'm happy that there are so many other Dragonite fans who prefer bulky setups over high-stat-sweeps. But it's so hard to choose which set to use!!
The point I made is that if Draco Meteor won't OHKO, Ice Beam won't either.
It certainly is, but many times you don't count on your late-game sweeper to be constantly switching into threats... Yes, Salamence can scare off Heracross / Lucario, etc. But normally you don't ask a DD Salamence to counter these threats unless its absolutely necessary.
he said unless it is packing draco meteor, cause dragon pulse won't 0hko, but ice beam will, and obviously so will draco meteor
I like MixNite the best. I almost never consider MixMence over it anymore. Not only because it's got Superpower, but because it's just more unexpected (imagine an OU threat like Dragonite being unexpected), has better SpD and is physically bulkier minus Intimidate.
I've been trying a SubPunch and SubRoost set to...minor success. Oh well ;(
I've been trying a SubPunch and SubRoost set to...minor success. Oh well ;(
When talking about surviving revenge kills, it is interesting that giving that dragonite 80 defense evs in addition to it's hp evs give it just over an 18% chance at surviving an adamant, max attack, LO mamoswine ice shard. Of course, 18% is still very low, and it has to be at full health, but a chance to survive such an attach at all is certainly something that is impressive.
Salamence takes about 18% more from scizor bullet punches with minimum investments.
Looking at the bulky sets, after moving salamence's 11 extra attack points over to defense, cb scizor would do 49%-57.8% to salamence and about 45%-53% to dragonite.
They don't have leftovers, so both will be 2hkoed, but it does suggest a much better ability to resist being revenge killed in such a manner.
From max attack LO luke extreme speed:
Salamence (with the extra attack evs moved to defense): 33.5-39.6%
Dragonite: 30.9-36.1%
With dragonite it would be a little less investment, if you ignore life orb, to push that to a 4hko.
Only testing would reveal how important these numbers are, but the difference doesn't appear all to great, although there may be a lot of situations in which the differene could make a large impact. Especially in regards to a pokemon with recovery (roost).
A few months ago, At lee's suggestion, I ran the following moveset late game (ie once ice beamers and steels were handled):
Dragon dance, outrage, roost, safeguard.
Hopefully Lee will come on with the EV's used, but this set was hideous once it got in. Safeguard plagued many twavers that thought they could just walk in and ruin your day at the last minute.
Safeguard is pretty sweet in a time where status is everywhere.
Dragon dance, outrage, roost, safeguard.
Hopefully Lee will come on with the EV's used, but this set was hideous once it got in. Safeguard plagued many twavers that thought they could just walk in and ruin your day at the last minute.
Safeguard is pretty sweet in a time where status is everywhere.
Wow, a whole thread devoted to Dragonite. This is Pkmn heaven.
Over lots of testing and experimenting I've learned that a way to make similiar Pokemon differ stat wise is to focus on their unique stat. For instance, we max Salamence's attack and speed because it has higher stats there. Now if we bring Dragonite's SpD above that Salamence possesses, then we have something that Salamence cannot do. People make Dragonite an inferior Salamence but focusing on things Salamence does better.
I've been abusing SubLiechiNite for a few weeks now, and it is doing simply amazing. Watch as Rotoms, Celebis, and even some Heatran struggle to break your substitutes. Finding a great EV spread for that set is difficult however.
Also, the support set should really be seeing more use. People say status healing moves like Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are useless in this fast paced metagame, but that's because they are using it on the wrong Pokemon. It is expected on Blissey, and sometimes even on Celebi. The foe won't expect you to use a support move and thus will not question switching in their counter. They have no clue what your doing.
Also, Dragonite has a 67% chance to OHKO max HP / Def Skarmory with CB Fire Punch, while CB Mence has only a 5% chance, factoring in Stealth Rock and Leftovers.
If you can get rid of Stealth Rock (Starmie support) then Dragonite can survive many Ice Beams from bulky waters, something that Salamence cannot do. This helps greatly to eliminate said threats. Speaking of Dragonite's bulk, a lot of people seem to forget Dragonite actually has more Def. It can survive a CB Bullet Punch from a revenge killing Scizor with more HP than Salamence.
EDIT: I'm going to have some Liechi filled logs soon, like tomorrow.
Over lots of testing and experimenting I've learned that a way to make similiar Pokemon differ stat wise is to focus on their unique stat. For instance, we max Salamence's attack and speed because it has higher stats there. Now if we bring Dragonite's SpD above that Salamence possesses, then we have something that Salamence cannot do. People make Dragonite an inferior Salamence but focusing on things Salamence does better.
I've been abusing SubLiechiNite for a few weeks now, and it is doing simply amazing. Watch as Rotoms, Celebis, and even some Heatran struggle to break your substitutes. Finding a great EV spread for that set is difficult however.
Also, the support set should really be seeing more use. People say status healing moves like Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are useless in this fast paced metagame, but that's because they are using it on the wrong Pokemon. It is expected on Blissey, and sometimes even on Celebi. The foe won't expect you to use a support move and thus will not question switching in their counter. They have no clue what your doing.
Also, Dragonite has a 67% chance to OHKO max HP / Def Skarmory with CB Fire Punch, while CB Mence has only a 5% chance, factoring in Stealth Rock and Leftovers.
If you can get rid of Stealth Rock (Starmie support) then Dragonite can survive many Ice Beams from bulky waters, something that Salamence cannot do. This helps greatly to eliminate said threats. Speaking of Dragonite's bulk, a lot of people seem to forget Dragonite actually has more Def. It can survive a CB Bullet Punch from a revenge killing Scizor with more HP than Salamence.
EDIT: I'm going to have some Liechi filled logs soon, like tomorrow.
Good summary of everything Dragonite does RL.
. . . though, getting a heal-bell dragonite with good IVs is pretty impossible in real life. freaking shoddy :/
. . . though, getting a heal-bell dragonite with good IVs is pretty impossible in real life. freaking shoddy :/
The thing is, Salamence w/ no defensive investment are actually OHKOed by CB Bullet Punch after Stealth Rock.
Actually, Life Orb +1 Bullet Punch OHKO's Salamence after Stealth Rock. CB Bullet Punch only does 59.21% - 69.79%.
This is a fantastic treatment of a complex and underdiscussed subject, the differences between Dragonite and Salamence. Properly speaking, this thread is technically about two Pokemon, not just one, so I don't see that as being a problem, at least by the letter of the law. I am curious to see how Dragonite will manage against the sudden onslaught of Latias in OU; perhaps this thread will help to keep Dragonite used.
Well recently I have been using the Cleric set, although with the standard analysis spread as I have no idea when it comes to defensive EVs, although I may try the extra speed for those Rotom-A. Dragonite is seriously amazing with Heal Bell. I would rather have my sweeper be something like Lucario anyways, resists Stealth Rock, has priority, and OHKOs steel types after a SD. I prefer to leave Salamence at home and bring out Scizor + Lucario + Nite.
Being the moronic pokemon player I was, I deleted by Careful Heal Bell Dragonite when I restarted to get Espeon > Jolteon in XD. I hope it didn't have good IVs...
Being the moronic pokemon player I was, I deleted by Careful Heal Bell Dragonite when I restarted to get Espeon > Jolteon in XD. I hope it didn't have good IVs...
Is there any hope for Dragonite as a lead? Inner Focus means no worrying about Fake Out, and although he lacks Reflect, he certainly has Life Screen, and to a somewhat lesser extent Safegaurd and Mist.
Nice thread Erik, you clearly busted your ass on it, so I commend you for that.
Dragonite is a really fun poke to use, primarily for Safeguard. As short as it lasts, this move is a godsend when you are sending in a Scizor or Lucario to set up and don't want a Thunder wave or Will o Wisp to break your mood. not to mention it's useful for Dragonite itself, as it just makes sweeping a whole lot safer.
Dragonite is a really fun poke to use, primarily for Safeguard. As short as it lasts, this move is a godsend when you are sending in a Scizor or Lucario to set up and don't want a Thunder wave or Will o Wisp to break your mood. not to mention it's useful for Dragonite itself, as it just makes sweeping a whole lot safer.
IMO Mix-nite only beats mix-mence in two aspects: It can OHKO blissey and tyranitar, otherwise I would much rather use salamence. From your article it seems like Dragonite fares better against stall then salamence, but Salamence is better against offensive teams, due to speed.
Great Article RaikouLover, I'm expecting dragonite usage to raise.
Great Article RaikouLover, I'm expecting dragonite usage to raise.
I have to agree that MixNite is an awesome wall breaker. Not getting locked into outrage is significant with all the steels running around, not to mention CB bullet punch, ice shard, fast pokemon, choice scarfers... unless it's extreme late game, chances are MixMence dies after using outrage. Dragonite can knock off Blissey, then Draco Meteor that Hippowdon that comes in, or switch out of that Azelf.
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