How to Beat Stall-Discussion

[Scofield]

I'm getting different calcs

Damage: 175 - 206
Damage: 59.73% - 70.31%

So with rocks, maybe a layer of spikes and a turn of sandstorm, ape is dead, all pretty reasonable I think. Even if ape gets in the attack, LO damage kills it, if ape dies, Latias has done its job.

 

[Stathakis]

Ok Stathakis CursePert is a bad example for beating stall. On the otherhand the 3 pokemon you suggested are actually walled by different things on stall teams. So can you not be so flippant because i find it quite offensive.

ie.
Swords Dance Lucario

walled by Gyarados without stone edge
walled by Gliscor without Ice Punch
walled by Celebi and Rotom without crunch

Swords Dance Infernape
Walled by Swampert and Hippowdon
Starmie and Latias

Dragon Dance Mence
cant Dragon Dance against Swampert or Hippowdon
Outrage is tanked by skarmory and with SR and Confusion/LO and sandstrom it is not going to be around for long.

congrats, your stall team can bring down one pokemon. too bad there are 5 others...

please, all sdape needs to do to sweep is get swampert or hippo to take like 20% damage. with luke, his "counters" need to take similar amounts. and with these guys being countered by the same stuff, they'll be lucky to have 20% left, let alone take only 20%. so before you "take offense" to what I"m saying, consider that it's actually correct. and as for all you other people saying "well what about teams that aren't stall," it holds true that things like ddmence will run through any type of team, not just stall.

like I said, there are just too many different offensive things that can do too much damage for stall to be effective. if you want stall to be effective, you have to beat everything, and by beating everything you stretch yourself to the point where in reality a focused team beats you without having to even predict at all.

edit: i still cant believe the op thinks that lucario and infernape can't beat stall. raikoulover and reyscarface are right about everything in their posts. rl actually has some really good stuff in his post, you guys should all read it multiple times. having a plan and keeping a cool head is what it's all about.

 

[locoghoul]

I'd say any taunt set up sweeper wins stall (DD Gyara, DD Tar)
Breloom and RestSuicune beats stall too

 

[Earthworm]

If you want to beat stall you have to keep your team hidden as well as you can because if they know what you have then it is much more easy to predict and play around your sweepers. Play style is just as important as the specific team members which have been outlined here. I have the most trouble with teams that have annoying special sweepers, U-Turn Scizor, and Stealth Rock that can predict every Blissey switch and rack up damage on the Pokemon that resist the U-turn. Clefable is also a huge pain and I usually have to PP stall it to beat it which isn't very possible against the CM version.

Keeping Spikes and Stealth Rock off the field is very important so you should make sure you have ways to threaten or remove the Pokemon that use them or use a Starmie with Rapid Spin (I'm not really a fan of the Life Orb Rapid Spinner version and I usually laugh when someone uses it against me but if you want to stay offensive it is an option) because Stall teams often can't switch anything other than Blissey in on Starmie safely, and Blissey poses little to no threat to it.

It is important to remain on the offensive the whole time and keep the pressure up otherwise a stall team will just set up or recover HP. If you can't keep pressure up it will be incredibly difficult to break stall.

Empoleon leads with Surf, Grass Knot, and Stealth Rock are in particular incredibly annoying for stall, as are Azelf leads but they are expected so they may not be as effective.

Random stuff like Mixed Metagross and other Mixed sweepers are very good at breaking stall. Calm Mind passing to Pokemon like Gengar is also very effective. Toxic Spikes and other residual damage is really effective as someone already mentioned.

Flygon variants can be annoying (Scarf is usually not as effective as Choice Band or Life Orb) because Spikes does nothing and Stealth Rock does almost nothing to it. Trappers like Magnezone, Tyranitar, and Dugtrio are useful for removing walls.

If you're playing stall and you want to beat stall it shouldn't be hard to win if you have a Rapid Spinner that can force Rotom out like Starmie or Payback Forretress. If you can fit a Tyranitar on your team you can always try Pursuiting it too. Stall vs Stall is basically about getting Spikes and Stealth Rock up and keeping them up and then possibly PP stall. For the purposes of beating other Stall teams as well as keeping the almost everpresent Stealth Rock off the field I use two Rapid Spinners on my stall team.

 

[animenagai]

There are too many people looking for stupid specifics in this thread. Does lucario beat stall? Not always, well what about ape? Maybe if I use mixmence with lucario stall will be easy to beat.

NO.

Read what stat has said. The only true general way to beating stall with an offensive/balanced team is to somehow get rid of the counters that stops your designated poke from sweeping, then proceeding with the sweep. You have to keep in mind that your opponent is not completely stupid and that just because you have machamp, it doesn't mean that blissey's gonna die and that empoleon's gonna sweep.

Here's something I posted that pretty much killed another thread :P.

Let me draw out the types of ways an offensive team can pull this strategy off, at least to my knowledge:

1. Soften and sweep. Have two offensive threats that are countered by the same thing. Use one of them to weaken the counter into KO range, often at the price of your own guy then sweep with the other once the flood gates are open. eg. double dragon strategy or what you see on stathakis' greek RMT.

2. Trap and sweep. By trap I mean stuff like magnezone, duggy or pursuit. Once you trap the counter and kill it, you're free to reak havac. eg. maggy-dragon strategy (refresh latias works well), dugtrio-empoleon.

3. Lure and sweep. A lure is something that attracts a certain counter only to take it out. TAY used his expert belt metagross to take out stuff like gyara, swampert and latias by faking a scarfed, physical set. Ape then sweeps (his one doesn't have grass knot). A simpler version may be gengar with explosion and empoleon (takes out bliss, the rest is gravy).

4. A combination of (some of) these strats.

If you look at what I just said, I think it's pretty clear that a good offensive team is more than mindless clicking. You need to have a good gameplan in your head and know how to pull it off.

You'll at least want 2 members of your team to be devoted to this strategy. These threats must of course be pretty offensive in nature as it has to be able to deal some damage. In turn, it becomes much harder to find good counters on your team for everything, which leaves you more vulnerable to certain threats.

If you're facing a stall team, you better hope that your strategy pulls through. If say you want to kill skarm with specs mence, then sweep with latias, if the guy switches in a bliss instead and sees through your plan, it becomes much harder to win. In that sense, stall has more breathing room, because their strategy is easier to pull off.

Hope that helped. Overloading your team mindlessly with wall breakers doesn't necessarily help you against stall. That's a myth and a misconception. They need to have some sort of strategic synergy with it.

 

[y2zipper]

Beating stall is all about taking advantage of opportunities. You don't necessarily have to keep entry hazards off the field, but it helps not to have to deal with Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock every single game you play.

I've played a few stall teams and this is what I've seen...

Against most stall teams, you're going to get a general idea what you'll be able to sweep your opponent with early in the game. The reason for this is that you're opponent will want to set up spikes, and toxic spikes, and SR. Setting all that stuff up takes time, so you'll have an opportunity here to bring in a stat-up sweeper just to see what you're opponent will counter it with, then you can set up that or something similar.

 

[iKitsune]

Thanks a load for your contributions.
I completely agree with a lot of you and my OP was not designed to say that these are the only tactics/pokemon capable of beating stall. Im sorry if that was not explained.

If anyone can explain why stall is consistently at the top of the leaderboard when "it is so easy to beat" im looking at you Stath. That would be great.

 

[wildfire393]

Here's another Stall-breaker for you:

Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry/Leftovers
252 Attack - 252 Speed - 6 HP - Jolly/Adamant
Dragon Dance
Taunt
Stone Edge
Aqua Tail / Fire Punch / Earthquake

Stone Edge + Aqua Tail gets the same stall-clearing coverage that Bulky Gyara does, only with a resistance to Skarmory's flying STAB, making it even easier to set up on (you can take pretty much nothing even from Brave Bird, meaning with leftovers you can go to +6 if he's dumb enough to let you). A +1 Aqua Tail also 2HKOs Hippowdon, meaning as long as the Hippo is at least weakened, he can't stop your sweep either. A different move could be used in that last slot if you have something to take down hippowdon (a lead that can KO it when they wouldn't expect works nicely. I like Specs Celebi for this). Fire Punch is worth mention mostly for being able to annihilate Forretress, who can otherwise hinder you a little if he shows up. Keep in mind that Fire/Rock is walled by Swampert, however. Babiri berry, if you chose to run it, will let you live a Gyro Ball at +2, however, making it less important to have Fire Punch.
The item and nature choice come down to how good you want this to be against aggressive teams. Jolly is required to outspeed common aggressive threats like Starmie, Azelf, Gengar, and Latias, all of whom can end your sweep, but Adamant is better against Stall, where every bit of extra damage matters. Similarly, Babiri Berry is primarily to destroy Scizor (who is OHKOd on the rocks with a +1 Stone Edge), while Leftovers increases the number of things he can set up on against Stall.

@iKitsune: Stall is widely considered more resilient than Aggressive teams. When playing Aggressive versus Aggressive, one misprediction can result in your single counter to one of their set-up sweepers being taken down, and then you lose to that Pokemon. With stall, though, there are generally 2-3 counters for just about any Pokemon, affording them a little more leeway with their moves and a little more forgiveness for misplays. Additionally, many teams are just not equipped to destroy Stall, affording them basically instant wins.

 

[thetorsoboy]

There are too many people looking for stupid specifics in this thread. Does lucario beat stall? Not always, well what about ape? Maybe if I use mixmence with lucario stall will be easy to beat.

I really agree with this here. There's just so many combinations of things that a lot of it is just hoping that your opponent doesn't come with something that totally sucks for you. (Of course, you still have to prepare the best you can)

I've also noticed that when I can't break a stall with sweepers, sometimes you can by out-stalling. Toxic's really nice for breaking stalls as it usually ruins a lot of things that don't carry rest. Sub + Toxic + Recovery Move + STAB is a really good way to break walls. (Articuno comes to mind here, although that would be in nUU, because of its major Stealth Rocks weakness)

Out-stalling does get pretty boring, but it usually works given you have the right moves and such.

 

[Friar]

Something else I would say is that running a predominantly physical team usually has good success against stall. Even when you try to overload your team with special attackers, Blissey [especially wishbliss] can usually take the heat. However, there isnt a physical Blissey, and that can be exploited.

The idea of having a plan, which has been discussed earlier, cannot be stressed enough. You really need to plan plays a few in advance so you can think out how you are going to break that vital link in the stall team's core. This is made significantly easier because stall teams rarely make predictions, so usually is you can execute your plan you will come out on top.

 

[Mrobinson587]

Clefable in general is stall's worst enemy. It should be on the list, since magic guard makes the main point of stall useless and it can Trick, Encore, Softboiled, CM, Cosmic Power, Belly Drum ect.

... Knock off as well


I use clefable on every team to aid me in getting rid of stall I use a lead clefable that runs encore trick (usually flame orb) knock off and stealth rock or counter.

Offensively mixed metagross is one of the best stall breakers around. I used to run one back when Obi's stall team was around and people were copy pasting it. I should be able to take down at least 3 stall pokes if you play it right. Watch out for rotoms overheat though

 

[y2zipper]

Thanks a load for your contributions.
I completely agree with a lot of you and my OP was not designed to say that these are the only tactics/pokemon capable of beating stall. Im sorry if that was not explained.

If anyone can explain why stall is consistently at the top of the leaderboard when "it is so easy to beat" im looking at you Stath. That would be great.

It isn't necessarily easy to beat. I don't think anyone said that. There's a great post about this by rl in another thread. Here ya go...

The reason why stall is more consistently successful is based on my favorite analogy. If you watch college basketball, Roy Williams is the head basketball coach of the University of North Carolina, and he models his entire coaching strategy on what he dubs, "The Tiger Woods" approach. The strategy is to create as many possessions as possible because over time, the skill difference becomes more apparent with more opportunities. Since he always has the best talent, he believes that creating more possessions will give him more opportunities to win. When asked about his philosophy he says, "If you play Tiger Woods in one whole of golf, you can get a whole-in-one, or shoot the best hole of your life and beat him. But if you play him in 18 holes, you won't get lucky. He is going to bet you EVERY time." As a result, Roy Williams is the third most winningst active basketball coach today by percentage (so yeah, it works!).

Pokemon works the same way, unfortunately. When battling with an offensive team yesterday, we all know that you cannot let the opponent set up or you lose. Well, my +1 / + 1 Gyarados encounters his Gyarados, which comes in at 75% thanks to Stealth Rock. He Intimidates me obviously, but I can still kill him with Stone Edge. I Stone Edge and miss, and he Dragon Dances. It turns out we were both Adamant, max speed. From there, he wins the speed tie and OHKOs me with Stone Edge. Now, I'm facing a +1 / +1 Gyarados that my team is not equipped to handle at that point in the match. Through no fault of my own, or no skill on his part, he ended up sweeping my team and winning the match. Instances like this happen quite commonly with offensive teams, hence why many would disagree with the notion that stall teams are hurt more by hax. Bullshit. Offensive teams despise hax, because less "possessions" equals more opportunity for a game-breaking hax to ruin the game.

So in conclusion, my theory going back to this principle is that stall creates consistency because a more skilled player using stall will always beat a player with a considerably less amount of skill, therefore common stall users like IPL can overcome hax at the top of the ladder so regularly. In offensive teams, you really can lose to a player you have no business losing to by shear luck.

I don't think anyone sums it up better than that.

 

[Stathakis]

If anyone can explain why stall is consistently at the top of the leaderboard when "it is so easy to beat" im looking at you Stath. That would be great.

the average person doesn't know how to build teams that can beat stall. therefore it is very easy to ladder with stall if you know what you're doing. I know for a fact that IPL uses offense in a lot of tourneys, mainly because stall is not as good against good players as it is against average players. so let me rephrase my sentence. "if you are a good offensive player then you can beat stall teams without dedicating whole team slots to things like mixtar that only work vs. stall"

happy?

 

[iKitsune]

happy?

Delighted

 

[JLei2k]

the average person doesn't know how to build teams that can beat stall. therefore it is very easy to ladder with stall if you know what you're doing. I know for a fact that IPL uses offense in a lot of tourneys, mainly because stall is not as good against good players as it is against average players. so let me rephrase my sentence. "if you are a good offensive player then you can beat stall teams without dedicating whole team slots to things like mixtar that only work vs. stall"

happy?

Perfectly put. The average ladderer can't beat stall played by a good player therefore stall produces amazing win rates because of its consistency when played on ladder which is the way to get high on the ladder. The "average" stall team used in a tournament would most likely not get very far because of the better players you will face know how to build offensive/ bulky offensive teams with a plan to beat them.

 

[Zach]

the average person doesn't know how to build teams that can beat stall. therefore it is very easy to ladder with stall if you know what you're doing. I know for a fact that IPL uses offense in a lot of tourneys, mainly because stall is not as good against good players as it is against average players. so let me rephrase my sentence. "if you are a good offensive player then you can beat stall teams without dedicating whole team slots to things like mixtar that only work vs. stall"

happy?

That still leaves defensive and balanced teams to go, which are more easily beaten by the likes of MixTar, but I see what you're saying

 

[pkmn1000]

For me i use this set to break walls

salamence@life orb
naive 252 spd/52atk/200sp atk

hydro pump
fire blast
brick brick
outrage/crunch
Hp for hippowdon/gliscor/any other rocks/ground or heatran that try to wall sala.
fire blast for tangrowth bronzong and meta. bb for tyranitar and blissey outrage for anything else and crunch for cressy.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

the average person doesn't know how to build teams that can beat stall. therefore it is very easy to ladder with stall if you know what you're doing. I know for a fact that IPL uses offense in a lot of tourneys, mainly because stall is not as good against good players as it is against average players. so let me rephrase my sentence. "if you are a good offensive player then you can beat stall teams without dedicating whole team slots to things like mixtar that only work vs. stall"

I'm not trying to nitpick or be an ass but are you implying that the so-called top-rated players playing stall only succeed with that playstyle due to beating up on "inferior" players? Granted, the Shoddy matchup system can be crappy, but I can't imagine climbing up the ladder without facing a fair number of above-average players.

The higher frequency of stall teams on the ladder compared to tourney play is probably explained by the "reliability" of stall in an environment with lots and lots of matches. At least moreso than the quality of players in ladder play vs tourney play IMO.

I do agree that a well made offensive team shouldn't have to resort to a Clefable-like silver bullet to deal with and win against stall teams.

 

[Stathakis]

The higher frequency of stall teams on the ladder compared to tourney play is probably explained by the "reliability" of stall in an environment with lots and lots of matches. At least moreso than the quality of players in ladder play vs tourney play IMO.

while it is true that stall is used more on the ladder due to its consistency, if every player on the ladder was a top-tier player, stall wouldn't dominate the top of the ladder. it's really a combination of what you said and what I said. in no way am I saying that the top-rated players are only there because they beat inferior players. I'm sure the same players would be at the top of the ladder even if the intelligence of the average ladderer was higher. However, a well-built stall team loses to a well-built offense team, so yes, less stall would be seen at the top of the ladder if everyone else was better. err, maybe I am saying that the top players are there because they beat lesser players with stall. basically combine what you said and what I said and that's why stall is at the top of the ladder.

 

[LoveDensity]

All in all, well said about stall, EW.

Keeping Spikes and Stealth Rock off the field is very important so you should make sure you have ways to threaten or remove the Pokemon that use them or use a Starmie with Rapid Spin (I'm not really a fan of the Life Orb Rapid Spinner version and I usually laugh when someone uses it against me but if you want to stay offensive it is an option) because Stall teams often can't switch anything other than Blissey in on Starmie safely, and Blissey poses little to no threat to it.

I find that Rapid Spinners are very good safeties for success to beat Stall. It builds a pressure on the Stall user and if the layers of Spikes/SR are gone, it would be a pain again to set it back up. If anyone can build a team with two Spinners...particularly Payback Forrey and Starmie would be a general pain for all teams since teams are geared to get their "rocks" up.

 

[Stathakis]

imo spinners are a waste of space that could be used better, when all you need is good offensive synergy to beat stall most of the time, why get the extra backup that is largely useless in most battles. two spinners on anything but a stall team (to beat other stall teams) is preposterous.

 

[LoveDensity]

imo spinners are a waste of space that could be used better, when all you need is good offensive synergy to beat stall most of the time, why get the extra backup that is largely useless in most battles. two spinners on anything but a stall team (to beat other stall teams) is preposterous.

Well, thats what i meant though really: two spinners in a stall team works good. Although, Starmie is a good balanced threat and Forrey is a good defensive threat. I can see a team use those "best" two spinners in a balanced defensive team. All the team has to do is put pressure.

 

[Darkmalice]

I've did the Dugtrio update, and I can confidently say taht Dugtrio is an excellent weapon against stall teams.

Sure, most members of a stall team will have no problem against the mole (I'll laugh if Dugtrio beats Hippowdon). But there are two very common Pokemon on stall teams that Dugtrio loves to trap. Blissey, as you would all know. Dugtrio Earthquake's does 53.61% - 63.29% damage to 0 HP / 252 Def Calm Blissey (standard). So once Blissey loses about 45% of her HP (about 50% in Sandstorm), Dugtrio can eliminate her. And just in case you're wondering, 80 SpA Blissey's Ice Beam will only 2HKO Dugtrio. If Blissey gets Tricked a Choice item, you'll have no problems switching Dugtrio in safely (but it's arguable that she's dead weight with a Choice item).

The other common stall member that Dugtrio traps, and one that Dugtrio has an even easier time against, is Tentacruel. Any time Tentacruel uses Toxic Spikes or Rapid Spin (which are generally its first move) is a free turn to send in Dugtrio and proceed with an easy OHKO. Tentacruel can't even attempt to stall with Wish + Protect.


What's the joy of having these two members removed? First off, your opponent may have lost access to the moves Toxic Spikes,
Rapid Spin, Wish, and Aromtherapy, all of which are important moves for stall teams (the first two are crucial). Celebi is perhaps the Pokemon most benefited from the absence of Toxic Spikes, as it can just Recover off Spikes damage, and HP Fire + Leech Seed will beat Skarmory and many other common Stall Pokemon.

Special sweepers will now have a much easier time finishing off the rest of the stall team. Who's left on the team that doesn't enjoy taking Heatran's Fire Blast. Any special sweeper will benefit with at least one of those two Pokemon removed - Latias, Gengar, Zapdos, even Specs Salamence. Of course, my two examples assume your opponent doesn't have Latias. However, you should always pair up Dugtrio with Tyranitar to comfortably remove the Eon Pokemon, and set up the Sandstorm that Dugtrio adores.

 

[yysame]

I feel a team with a spinner and some solid wall breakers will do fine against stall, though some good predictions are required as well.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Banded Tyranitar + DDGyara is a good combination for breaking stall. The most potent threats to a DDGyara sweep are Zapdos, Jolteon, Cresselia, and Rotom-h.

Zapdos: Forced out, since Stone Edge is an OHKO.
Jolteon: Banded Pursuit always OHKOs a switching Jolteon. Jolteon is screwed, but most stall teams don't use it.
Cresselia: Pursuit OHKOs a switching one, and all Cresselia can do is Thunder Wave Tyranitar.
Rotom-h: It's a prediction game. Pursuit OHKOs a switching one, but it can also stay in to burn you. Even so, it won't be able to counter Gyarados afterward.

Due to the way stall teams tend to try to cover everything, a stall team will often lack two counters to DDGyara, which lets it sweep once the Gyarados counter is removed. I am currently using these two on a somewhat successful team on Shoddy.