-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
- Start date
- Status
Yea, last time I was UU laddering Heavy Offense was plain awesome. The main problem HO in UU has is the lack of a reliable lead. The only "good" lead seemed to be DS SR Memento Uxie. When I ran HO in UU, I led with Sashed SD Scyther, so I bypassed SR for 6 sweepers which worked amazingly well (Scyther 6-0ed so many people it was amazing). For interest, my team was randomly thrown together (Scyther/Drapion/Blaziken/Feraligatr/Leafeon (or Sceptile, depended on my mood)/Kabutops.) It was way too easy to remove the opponents bulky water and sweep... Any ideas on how to run special HO in UU?
@ GEC: I'm gonna try it today :x
@ GEC: I'm gonna try it today :x
Well, I have never run special HO in UU but it could be great with Nasty Plot Mismagius now. I would imagine the most important part of a special HO team in UU would have to be Toxicroak, since it's the only special attacker that can get STAB on a special Fighting move, and use it to OHKO/2HKO (depending on Focus Blast/HP Fighting) Chansey, allowing guys like Houndoom and LO NP Mismagius to sweep. It can also take out Milotic/Registeel as well, which gives some special Pokemon trouble with their high defensive stats.
What.
This is your opinion and nothing else. Omit it.
It is not about being right or wrong in any one instance with prediction, but rather maximizing long term edge. Some battlers rely on using a superior team, but some are only winning players due to prediction. Being wrong does not necessarily mean an inferior prediction. For a superior battler, it is usually short term variance.
Yes, some guessing is involved, but the word implies randomization. Any battler with long term success would recognise that prediction is much more than that.
It is mistaken to focus upon chance. To not roll the die, to not take that 55-45 shot is to settle for mediocrity. Recognizing situations where you have an edge, and taking a gamble when the odds are in your favour is all part of becoming a better battler. As stated already in this thread, much of this depends upon continuous risk/reward analysis. It is OK to lose sometimes.
regarding UU HO!
my physical HO team that started off as a SD gimmick works strangely well so I fixed it up a little and called it a team (although it has a massive weak to SB Yanmega lol)
mesprit @ tanga berry
sd absol @ LO
sd toxicroak @ LO
sd venusaur @ leftovers
sd kabutops @ LO
sd ursaring @ leftovers
I was too lazy to find a better lead than mesprit (whose moveset is currently SR ice beam psychic magic coat I believe) so there it is. lots of the pokemon share similar counters, each of the common counters is again easy setup bait for another pokemon, and Ursaring is a cool status absorber (especially wow).
I used a heavily specially-based frail offensive team just to play around with HGSS changes like NP Missy and I found it just got bowled over by fast and strong attackers (like espeon, ambipom to an extent, swellow, etc). whereas physical UU HO has tons of priority to work with to deal w/ scarfers and fast stuff, how does special HO cope?
my physical HO team that started off as a SD gimmick works strangely well so I fixed it up a little and called it a team (although it has a massive weak to SB Yanmega lol)
mesprit @ tanga berry
sd absol @ LO
sd toxicroak @ LO
sd venusaur @ leftovers
sd kabutops @ LO
sd ursaring @ leftovers
I was too lazy to find a better lead than mesprit (whose moveset is currently SR ice beam psychic magic coat I believe) so there it is. lots of the pokemon share similar counters, each of the common counters is again easy setup bait for another pokemon, and Ursaring is a cool status absorber (especially wow).
I used a heavily specially-based frail offensive team just to play around with HGSS changes like NP Missy and I found it just got bowled over by fast and strong attackers (like espeon, ambipom to an extent, swellow, etc). whereas physical UU HO has tons of priority to work with to deal w/ scarfers and fast stuff, how does special HO cope?
Actually, if anything I would expect UU special HO to benefit from Yanmega's departure, since enemy Speed Boost Yanmegas are one of the biggest problems you face. Or at least, they are for me- maybe people with better luck not getting flinched by Air Slash don't have trouble with them.
I agree that Toxicroak is of critical importance, not just for NP Focus Blasts, but also so you have some way of living against Rain Dance teams. Beyond that, I think some of the best candidates that set up are Mismagius (obviously), Houndoom, Espeon, possibly Charge Beam Manectric, maybe even some crazy stuff like Growth Roserade until she's banished to OU.
Also, it's worth noting that, though lacking any SpAtk boosters (save perhaps Petaya or Blaze boost), Blaziken can run Agility (which is often useful in HO teams) and does 97.97% - 115.74% to Clefable with LO Focus Blast, ~75% minimum to 252/252+ Registeel with LO Fire Blast (i.e. obviously kills with Blaze up), and at least manages ~50% minimum vs. 252/252+ Chansey.
I've not yet found a solid answer to all the priority in the format, however. Mismagius handles Fake Out/Mach Punch/Quick Attack, Blaziken takes Bullet Punches if necessary, Toxicroak/Blaziken take Sucker Punches, Sceptile and Toxicroak can take Aqua Jets... but when teams spam priority, back it up with Swords Dance, or have users with multiple priorities (hi Hitmontop), they pose a real and possibly fatal threat to fast/frail special HO teams that don't have Yanmega as a tool.
I haven't really done much experimentation yet, but I wonder if perhaps the answer is to just suck it up and sacrifice pure offensive capabilities for bulk. Calm Mind Mesprit, Calm Mind Entei (!!), or Growth Venusaur (!!!) are somewhat off-the-board picks that might still solve the problem. Or, maybe that's going too far, and the real answer is just to run screen support and hope for the best.
I agree that Toxicroak is of critical importance, not just for NP Focus Blasts, but also so you have some way of living against Rain Dance teams. Beyond that, I think some of the best candidates that set up are Mismagius (obviously), Houndoom, Espeon, possibly Charge Beam Manectric, maybe even some crazy stuff like Growth Roserade until she's banished to OU.
Also, it's worth noting that, though lacking any SpAtk boosters (save perhaps Petaya or Blaze boost), Blaziken can run Agility (which is often useful in HO teams) and does 97.97% - 115.74% to Clefable with LO Focus Blast, ~75% minimum to 252/252+ Registeel with LO Fire Blast (i.e. obviously kills with Blaze up), and at least manages ~50% minimum vs. 252/252+ Chansey.
I've not yet found a solid answer to all the priority in the format, however. Mismagius handles Fake Out/Mach Punch/Quick Attack, Blaziken takes Bullet Punches if necessary, Toxicroak/Blaziken take Sucker Punches, Sceptile and Toxicroak can take Aqua Jets... but when teams spam priority, back it up with Swords Dance, or have users with multiple priorities (hi Hitmontop), they pose a real and possibly fatal threat to fast/frail special HO teams that don't have Yanmega as a tool.
I haven't really done much experimentation yet, but I wonder if perhaps the answer is to just suck it up and sacrifice pure offensive capabilities for bulk. Calm Mind Mesprit, Calm Mind Entei (!!), or Growth Venusaur (!!!) are somewhat off-the-board picks that might still solve the problem. Or, maybe that's going too far, and the real answer is just to run screen support and hope for the best.
Special HO for UU is probably the easiet one, there are a number of SpA attackers that can bypass dedicated special walls. Here are a few off the top of my head:
- Nasty Plot Houndoom
- Nasty Plot Mismagius
- Nasty Plot Jynx
- Nasty Plot Toxicroak
- Specs Sceptile
- Life Orb Roserade
To be honest, for UU I found that the best way to build a HO team was to do something like this:
Step 1: Pick an SR lead. I prefer bulky hard hitters, such as Regirock or Donphan.
Step 2: Get 2-ish absurdly powerful Choice users, such as Yanma or Azumarill, or both. I prefer one fast and frail one and one bulky slower one.
Step 3: Get 2-ish absurdly powerful Life Orb attackers with utility moves to deal with specific problems, and they need good resistances for switch-ins. This is more complicated and hard to explain, but I mean Pokemon like Honchkrow (Roost/Sucker Punch/Brave Bird/Superpower works wonders), Roserade (Sleep Powder/SBomb/Leaf Storm/Synthesis), and even Blaziken (Superpower/Fire Blast/HP Electric or Grass/Vacuum Wave). Priority and Utility are needed for HO as "Oh Shit! buttons".
Step 4: Fast and Frail set up sweeper! This includes NP Missy, CM LO Espeon, SD Drapion, SB Yanmega. There are quite a few options. Make sure you pick something that fits in with the rest of your team (like don't use CM Espeon or Yanmega if you don't have a way to remove Chansey).
The strategy is simple: Set up Stealth Rock and nuke the shit out of the opponents team with your Choice / LO Pokemon. After your opponent's team is weakened, you can send in your set-up sweeper and finish them off.
It can get a little more complicated then that, but I really do think offensive and defensive synergy is important, not just spamming set-up sweepers. Spamming powerful attackers with set up sweepers finishing the job is what I've had the most success with in UU.
Step 1: Pick an SR lead. I prefer bulky hard hitters, such as Regirock or Donphan.
Step 2: Get 2-ish absurdly powerful Choice users, such as Yanma or Azumarill, or both. I prefer one fast and frail one and one bulky slower one.
Step 3: Get 2-ish absurdly powerful Life Orb attackers with utility moves to deal with specific problems, and they need good resistances for switch-ins. This is more complicated and hard to explain, but I mean Pokemon like Honchkrow (Roost/Sucker Punch/Brave Bird/Superpower works wonders), Roserade (Sleep Powder/SBomb/Leaf Storm/Synthesis), and even Blaziken (Superpower/Fire Blast/HP Electric or Grass/Vacuum Wave). Priority and Utility are needed for HO as "Oh Shit! buttons".
Step 4: Fast and Frail set up sweeper! This includes NP Missy, CM LO Espeon, SD Drapion, SB Yanmega. There are quite a few options. Make sure you pick something that fits in with the rest of your team (like don't use CM Espeon or Yanmega if you don't have a way to remove Chansey).
The strategy is simple: Set up Stealth Rock and nuke the shit out of the opponents team with your Choice / LO Pokemon. After your opponent's team is weakened, you can send in your set-up sweeper and finish them off.
It can get a little more complicated then that, but I really do think offensive and defensive synergy is important, not just spamming set-up sweepers. Spamming powerful attackers with set up sweepers finishing the job is what I've had the most success with in UU.
@ McGraw, that was Stathakis' writing so I'm not going to remove it. Talk with him about it.
My most recent heavy offense team for UU was...
Lead Arcanine, since it does shitloads of damage and toxics bulky waters and rocks tat tend to switch in and piss me off.
Jolly LO Ambipom - With Low Kick, it sweeps hard now, and with its high speed and Technician Payback, plus immunity to Shadow Ball, it acts as a great Plotmagius check.
Specs Lens Yanmega - Need I say more? Specs Lens Yanmega is horseshit powerful and requires somewhere around nil in the way of prediction. Walls? What are those?
Choice Band Aggron - CB Head Smash hits bullshit hard, and there's a solid amount of stuff it can switch into. Probably the member I would replace the most. Might drop in Azumarill in its place since it's powerful as all get out and still solidly bulky, plus it provides priority.
Nasty Plot 3 Attack Mismagius - Such a ridiculously effective sweeper. It can set up on most walls and destroy them. I use Thunderbolt and HP Fighting to beat Milotic as well as Chansey. Might switch to HP Ground, though.
Swords Dance Venusaur - Now that it gets Power Whip, it just does SO much damage. I've contemplated using Outrage over Sleep Powder because Altaria is a huge, huge dick to my team.
Lead Arcanine, since it does shitloads of damage and toxics bulky waters and rocks tat tend to switch in and piss me off.
Jolly LO Ambipom - With Low Kick, it sweeps hard now, and with its high speed and Technician Payback, plus immunity to Shadow Ball, it acts as a great Plotmagius check.
Specs Lens Yanmega - Need I say more? Specs Lens Yanmega is horseshit powerful and requires somewhere around nil in the way of prediction. Walls? What are those?
Choice Band Aggron - CB Head Smash hits bullshit hard, and there's a solid amount of stuff it can switch into. Probably the member I would replace the most. Might drop in Azumarill in its place since it's powerful as all get out and still solidly bulky, plus it provides priority.
Nasty Plot 3 Attack Mismagius - Such a ridiculously effective sweeper. It can set up on most walls and destroy them. I use Thunderbolt and HP Fighting to beat Milotic as well as Chansey. Might switch to HP Ground, though.
Swords Dance Venusaur - Now that it gets Power Whip, it just does SO much damage. I've contemplated using Outrage over Sleep Powder because Altaria is a huge, huge dick to my team.
I feel I haven't contributed much to this thread as I should have, so I'm going to post some stuff.
UU Heavy Offense sounds easier for some reason, but I'm horrible at UU, soon to learn it though for st9. The walls in UU aren't as defensive (Chansey lol) and waters like Milotic seem more easily taken care of. Thoughts on this guys?
UU Heavy Offense sounds easier for some reason, but I'm horrible at UU, soon to learn it though for st9. The walls in UU aren't as defensive (Chansey lol) and waters like Milotic seem more easily taken care of. Thoughts on this guys?
HO is nice. Specially in UU.
I run a team with:
Armaldo lead-base 125 attack, Stealth Rock, ROCK BLAST to break any annoying sub, Rapid Spin to get rid of the rocks... takes nothing from Fake Out Ambipom which it seems that it's everyone's favorite lead.
LO Kangaskhan- pretty nce. Great movepool, Scrappy makes ReturnQuake combo resisted by only Solrock/Lunatone, priority attack... begs to differ from Tauros.
LO Venusaur- absorbs Toxic, counters Milotic, good typing. It is a special one though, Roserade is faster does more damage but Venusaur can switch in more easily.
Sunny Day Arcanine: Sunny Day boosts his Fire Blast and Morning Sun while Solarbeam hits water pokes hard. Grab a Flash Fire boost and you're set to pwn. Sunny Day also cleans the field of any annoying Hail/Sandstorm/Rain Dance.
Bulk Up Hitmontop: Bulk Up with Top is easy to gather, and Mach Punch gives him a good strong priority attack... or two.
DD LO Whiscash: sincerely, i don't know what the hell Whiscash is doing in my team lol. Too lazy to take him off the team.
I don't know if that's a HO team or more of a balanced team. But everyone is set to do as much damage as possible.
I run a team with:
Armaldo lead-base 125 attack, Stealth Rock, ROCK BLAST to break any annoying sub, Rapid Spin to get rid of the rocks... takes nothing from Fake Out Ambipom which it seems that it's everyone's favorite lead.
LO Kangaskhan- pretty nce. Great movepool, Scrappy makes ReturnQuake combo resisted by only Solrock/Lunatone, priority attack... begs to differ from Tauros.
LO Venusaur- absorbs Toxic, counters Milotic, good typing. It is a special one though, Roserade is faster does more damage but Venusaur can switch in more easily.
Sunny Day Arcanine: Sunny Day boosts his Fire Blast and Morning Sun while Solarbeam hits water pokes hard. Grab a Flash Fire boost and you're set to pwn. Sunny Day also cleans the field of any annoying Hail/Sandstorm/Rain Dance.
Bulk Up Hitmontop: Bulk Up with Top is easy to gather, and Mach Punch gives him a good strong priority attack... or two.
DD LO Whiscash: sincerely, i don't know what the hell Whiscash is doing in my team lol. Too lazy to take him off the team.
I don't know if that's a HO team or more of a balanced team. But everyone is set to do as much damage as possible.
If it was me, I would be worried about running a hyper offensive team without Stealth Rock given its incredible usefulness at ensuring so many KOs that would otherwise ruin you offensive momentum. That is why offensive teams I have used in the past run either something like a suicide Dugtrio or a max Attack exploding Regi.
If anything, Yanmega should be the one you next replace instead of Aggron because, well, it won't be available much longer.
Also, something I've noticed when battling heavy offense is that those that are not running a Steel type of some sort are often extremely vulnerable to my Gastrodon / Linoone combo. This is because most rely on some kind of strong priority to deal with fast sweepers that have set up, and Linoone pretty much throws that concept out of the window. With Gastrodon's amazing typing and bulk, it is not hard to survive the 1-2 turns needed even against very heavy offense.
I didn't know this was the RMT section guys! Lol, just kidding. I'm compelled to make a special heavy offense team with Uxie, Roserade, Blaziken, Milotic, Croagunk or whatever it is, and Mismagius. I think that sounds good, but I fail at UU as I previously stated.
As someone completely new to HO, being the standard guy I am with the (Suicide SR Lead, Physical Sweeper, Special Sweeper, Revenge Killer, Utility, End Game Sweeper) team set up, I tested the team stated in the OP.
AMAZING RESULTS! I completely love HO and will be playing with it a lot in the future, and I want to thank sprinkles for bringing it to my attention, as I was gravitating more and more to the ever popular Bulky Offensive team.
I'm actually already creating my own HO team as I type this post, and thought I should post and let you guys know.
OH! Forgot to mention, this was in OU, thought I should say so because of all the UU HO discussion going on.
AMAZING RESULTS! I completely love HO and will be playing with it a lot in the future, and I want to thank sprinkles for bringing it to my attention, as I was gravitating more and more to the ever popular Bulky Offensive team.
I'm actually already creating my own HO team as I type this post, and thought I should post and let you guys know.
OH! Forgot to mention, this was in OU, thought I should say so because of all the UU HO discussion going on.
Thanks I3east! I'm glad to be inspiring people. I myself am an avid bulky offense team, but I do enjoy heavy offense too. It is quite effective when played properly.
any team is effective when played properly ._.
I have a question regarding long term thinking and multiple win conditions. In the early game when little of the opponent's team is known, do you just randomly select and try a win condition and adjust on the fly if that win condition doesn't work? Or is there a method to deciding which Pokemon to bring out first after setting up rocks, screens, etc.?
I think this is very important in actually getting wins. They've always showed you their lead. You know if you got rocks or they did. You also know wich pokemon are generally the best at attacking first.
Even if you're some kind of super genius at calculating odds, and manage to figure out that in your current situation you have a 55% chance of success and a 45% chance of failure, that's still a pretty shitty situation to be in. HO tries to minimize the amount of times you find yourself having to rely on those kinds of odds
I cede, it is my opinion. ill tell sprinkles to take it out or whatever
those who need to predict to win should obviously not use teams that play down prediction in games, then. there's nothing wrong with prediction except that it allows a chance to lose. some of us prefer for there not to be a chance of failure.
while it can be argued that prediction is much more than that (and that's an argument for a different thread), it is pretty much accepted that there is some guessing involved. the less guessing you have to do, the less chances there are of you guessing wrong.
I am a little bit confused as to what you mean. if you have an edge, why take a chance and maybe put the match away, maybe blow your edge, when you can just build on that edge and win without any chances taken? how does winning without dice rolls imply mediocrity? personally, if I can win without taking chances, I'm going to. a win is a win, and the less chances there are of a win not happening, the better. though I suppose if you want to have things be out of your hands and have a "better than mediocre" win sometimes but lose sometimes, then whatever.
that sounds more to me like settling for mediocrity than "not guessing" but whatever
not "randomly." there are certain things that are harder to wall than others, so it makes sense that you'd bring them out earlier since the walls will be weaker after dealing with them. for instance, if I had an agiligross on a team and he had an oppertunity to come in for free in the early game, I would think twice before sending him in, simply because stalk wow rotom walls him without taking too much damage, so even if you sac him you're not getting much compensation (and if you dont sac him you risk. things like ddmence that are harder to wall make for better early game stuff. of course every game is different and you should use whatever information you have to make smart choices.
Sorry, reading this thread backwards and I thought this was inadequately answered. If half your team kills Blissey (and if you don't have 3 guys who kill her, I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong), then they really do have to choose between losing all their monsters or bringing in Blissey to be slaughtered. Against Blisseys heavily EV'd in Special Defense (i.e. good ones), the "just keep attacking" plan really doesn't work; I think Blissey is unique among walls in being able to boast this. However, it is easy to run a ton of pokes that both do their job killing things in general, and also make Blissey go away when called upon.
Gengar, as noted in the Greek RMT, almost always lures Bliss, and otherwise really does just dismantle people. Heatran can also come in easily on Fire Blasts, Bullet Punches or other sucky choiced moves and start killing things until Blissey shows up. Heatran also has the benefit of being able to fake people out extremely hard, with something like Sub + LO + Explosion. For some reason, people never seem to expect the Explosion from SubTran. Further, you can scout them with Sub until you feel really confident that you'll explode successfully. Azelf and Infernape also kill Blissey no problem. Even Starmie can run Pain Split now, which is really comparable to Recover in its ability to let you regain HP lost to LO, except it also means Blissey will eventually run out of Softboils if she tries to take you 1v1; Gengar and Mismagius also have this option if desperate. And there's always the hard way, CMing someone up and running Blissey out of healing PP. Basically, it is incredibly unlikely that someone will hide their Blissey, accept uninterrupted beatdown of their pokes, successfully kill the 3-5 members of your team that have some means of ruining Blissey, and then spring her on you for a game win. Even against quite good players, it is not really that difficult to make Blissey die.
I keep hearing that Latias is a problem for special teams, and maybe I just don't run into good ones, but it never seems to be a problem for me. If she's Choiced, you sacrifice a poke and set something up, basically just go about your day. If she's not Choiced, you get to exploit one of the special team's big advantages: your monsters are fast. Azelf, Jolteon, Starmie and Raikou all outspeed her straight-up, and Gengar or your own Latias can coinflip her if you're desperate/she comes in on you. I guess if you let Latias set up Calm Minds unmolested she'll kill you, but I don't think there's a HO team that doesn't get destroyed if it lets the opponent set up relevant sweepers, so it's at least not uniquely vulnerable in this regard.
- Status