Heavy Offense

[Hipmonlee]

but only an idiot would want to win if the opponent does x but lose if they do y (as opposed to winning no matter what), so the less you need to predict to win, the better.

Winning no matter what is extremely rare. Things like intentionally avoiding using CB because it requires prediction or explosion because it results in a blind switch seems crazy to me.

When you have a blind switch you select your pokemon based on your knowledge of the metagame, and your opponent does the same. If your knowledge of the game is greater than your opponents then this situation is most likely beneficial to you.

CB is much the same, though the issue for you with CB is not the prediction required but the potential for being forced to switch after a KO (and potentially allowing a set up). For salamence that really isnt an issue. Outrage does enough to everything that could do anything to you. Yes Life Orb DD is nice but I dont think CB is utterly unusable. CB also will help you a lot in a defensive situation. IE if something does set up, you want to hit it as hard as possible with one turn.

Basically, dont sacrifice versatility or limit your options for the sake of avoiding prediction. At least if you are planning on playing quality opposition. They are tools you can use and if you dont at least consider them, then you cant be maximising your chances of winning..

Have a nice day.

 

[franky]

Franky: Using choice items is exactly what gives them free turn to heal. people usually don't let you 2hko them with cb mence. If I see an outrage (and am not playing HO) I immediately go to a steel. You are now forced to switch out and you may give them 2 free turns to set up as you do so (if you don't switch out they still get free turns). With Gyara I would be able to get free turns to reheal my Celebi if you spam waterfall too much, etc. )
.

That's my game plan, a d that's a huge accomplishment. Taking it from your perspective, suppose Swampert takes the hit and you go to your Steel resist. Chances are I wrecked enough damage on your Salamence check (Swampert) and your Steel-resist, and luckily, if my confusion kicks in I can switch-out. If you heal with your Steel-type (Scizor or Skarmory Roost), I've accomplished taking huge chunks off Swampert. The next time Swampert comes in its dead. CB Mence is definitely something to try out if you haven't tried it. Like I said, I lean away from using CB Waterfall or CB Earthquake, whatever the case may be, I lean towards CB Outrage or Dragon Claw, or Specs Draco Meteor because its only resisted by one type.

 

[Stathakis]

Basically, dont sacrifice versatility or limit your options for the sake of avoiding prediction. At least if you are planning on playing quality opposition. They are tools you can use and if you dont at least consider them, then you cant be maximising your chances of winning..

Have a nice day.

of course, lol. I agree with you, considering everything is the way to go when making a team. I also agree with you that versatility should not be sacrificed. however, there are very few instances where I want a choice band gyarados or salamence and the ddlo version couldn't have done the job just as well, and with fewer repercussions. however, by going with a choice item you basically make it so that that mon can't sweep and will have to switch out at some point, which is a tricky game. explosion is something that you can use more effectively (and I did, if you look at my team in the archive).

nothing is unusable, but in principle there are some things that should get the nod over other things, and choice items/explosions should be thought about long and hard to make sure it's worth putting them in. ironically enough, the only heavy offense team I have posted on these forums has both explosions and a choice item, lol

 

[Boo0m]

One thing I have been having great success with is BlockTar
Tyranitar@Lum Berry
Jolly
4 HP/252 ATK/ 252 Spe
Block
Crunch
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge

I put the lum berry on there to absorb the WoW or T-Wave from Rotom and then Crunch. This set has won me 11 games by itself.

 

[whistle]

All special offense doesn't really mind Blissey. Blissey is usually the team's only check for special attackers. If you go all special, then Blissey has no time to recover, as you should keep hitting her, let your sweeper die, then pummel her some more. If Blissey doesn't come to "stop" them, then they've already lost.

this has been repeated over and over by people I really respect as HO users and as stall players but I still don't see how it is true so can someone explain please

lets say special offense teams consist of 6 of the following

azelf / gengar / infernape / latias / starmie / jolteon / empoleon / heatran / suicune / mismagius

azelf gengar and heatran can explode on blissey
infernape can beat her with focus blasts

and yet I fail to see how ANY of the other attackers can beat blissey (bar perhaps mismagius who I have no OU experience with) even if you "keep attacking" since you're not doing anywhere NEAR 50% with an unboosted move and only infernape and mismagius have access to a +2 boosting move. unless your previous sweeper leaves blissey at around 25% (which should never happen) there's nothing stopping her from softboiling or wishing first then using toxic or seismic toss or whatnot. blissey easily defeats HO latias starmie jolteon empoleon and suicune one on one which means relying on explosions and one pokemon who commonly carries close combat is ?_?

I understand the weaken the walls argument but I just don't understand how it works against blissey unless they try to use it to wall infernape or get blown up or something

 

[supermarth64]

One thing I have been having great success with is BlockTar
Tyranitar@Lum Berry
Jolly
4 HP/252 ATK/ 252 Spe
Block
Crunch
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge

I put the lum berry on there to absorb the WoW or T-Wave from Rotom and then Crunch. This set has won me 11 games by itself.

So... 11 teams didn't have a Scizor available to revenge kill it?

 

[reyscarface]

I understand the weaken the walls argument but I just don't understand how it works against blissey unless they try to use it to wall infernape or get blown up or something

Cool, if they decide to not use blissey to wall my attacks, then his whole team will go down!
With this you make Blissey come out, lose a LARGE chunk of hp and then get killed with ease. If they dont bring blissey... well... have fun stopping a tremendous special attacker with a physical wall?

 

[chenman333]

Blissey isn't the only thing walling those things, for example something like Vaporeon or Resttalk Gyara and Latias too can take on Heatran/Infernape, and stuff like Gengar/Azelf get walled by more than just blissey (she fears Explosion anyway) and can get screwed by Scizor/Tyranitar.

Good stall teams dont depend only on blissey to stop special attackers. The addition of Latias, and the presence of Scizor makes all special teams so hard to use, mainly because the bulkier special attackers can't beat Latias while the frailer ones are wrecked by Scizor.

 

[blasphemy1]

So... 11 teams didn't have a Scizor available to revenge kill it?

Well, if he uses that Tyranitar in tandem with Scizor, he can win the game, assuming Rotom-A is their only check for it.

 

[Maxim]

Good stall teams dont depend only on blissey to stop special attackers. The addition of Latias, and the presence of Scizor makes all special teams so hard to use, mainly because the bulkier special attackers can't beat Latias while the frailer ones are wrecked by Scizor.

Ok, so if Latias is so good against special HO teams, is it viable to stick a single physical HO pokemon to counter Latias, like Mamoswine for example.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

Ok, first off, I'm sorry to say I have been grounded lately for my grades. I'm at school right now in computer class. Next, since when does Mamoswine counter Latias? It doesn't. Bulkier Latias take like 50%~ from LO Ice Shard so it doesn't counter it at all.

 

[Maxim]

Hmm, I was basically giving a representation, I'm not overly good at these damage calcs.

 

[sora13]

I've been playing HO for at least two years, so I know what it takes to make a HO team win. Ive actually found that the best lead fora HO tema is not Azelf or Infernape, but it is actually PINSIR:

Pinsir @ Occa Berry
Adamant
252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 6Spd
-X-scissor
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Quick Attack

beats most leads, sets up sr, lures in those rotoms and smacks them with mold breaker eqs, and weakens crap for SD lucario/SD infernape(in my opinion, better than Luke). What more could you ask for? This thing is a very reliable lead and has rarely failed me. i cant recommend this thing enough.

 

[Qzahk]

In the prediction vs thinking I think you missed a huge point: Risk vs Reward. Risk vs. Reward is probably the most important thing when playing heavy offense IMO.

Risk vs. reward is the hugest thing in all of competitive pokemon.

Anyway, a frustration I've had with heavy offense teams is the lack of Garchomp to absorb those Thunderwaves. the only offensive ground type is Mamoswine now.

Back before the Suspect tests, heavy offense teams were all the craze, with the suicide leads. Remember that? The game has become a lot more balanced now.

 

[Wind of Portent]

True, although there are still pokemon that are slow enough to not mind Twave present on offensive teams, the most prominent example being Scizor.

 

[lati0s]

Anyway, a frustration I've had with heavy offense teams is the lack of Garchomp to absorb those Thunderwaves. the only offensive ground type is Mamoswine now.

rhyperior? flygon?

 

[DJXO9]

rhyperior? flygon?

Gliscor, Swampert?

 

[The Plant]

Aggron is absolutely horrible to this team.

 

[THB]

I've been playing HO for at least two years, so I know what it takes to make a HO team win. Ive actually found that the best lead fora HO tema is not Azelf or Infernape, but it is actually PINSIR:

Pinsir @ Occa Berry
Adamant
252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 6Spd
-X-scissor
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Quick Attack

beats most leads, sets up sr, lures in those rotoms and smacks them with mold breaker eqs, and weakens crap for SD lucario/SD infernape(in my opinion, better than Luke). What more could you ask for? This thing is a very reliable lead and has rarely failed me. i cant recommend this thing enough.

I've been giving this Pinsir lead a shot today. Definitely a very nice lead. Beats popular leads like Azelf, Metagross, Leadape, or breaks Focus sash against sleepers. You just have to make sure you have a Gyara/Mence check as they will use Pinsir to setup.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

Gliscor, Swampert?

These aren't suitable for HO play. Flygon is also best used as a scarfer or bander, and Mamoswine's best purpose, in my opinion, is a reliable check to Salamence, not something that sweeps whole teams. People often have something to beat Mamo without even realizing it.

Edit: Maybe a Gliscor SD set would be somewhat viable.

 

[PurpleWeezing]

On my last Heavy offense teams I tried to include Ground types, so I tested Gliscor (SD/EQ/SE/Firefang, Taunt, Roost, whatever) and Torterra (standard Rock Polish). Both were rather succesful, I especially liked Torterras cleaning potencial after Gyara wiped out/took 70ish off Skarm. Gliscor eased playing Stall even more and brought useful resists. Also it's awesome to see how they switch in their bulky water only to take a +2 Life Orb'ed Earthquake. Gonna contribute some more to this thread later, loved HO from the start (first good team of mine was HO ages ago)

 

[sora13]

CBmence is a great pokemon for heavy offense. It is the one CB pokemon which doesn't have to predict. Dragon claw first turn to lure steels, every time after that I outrage. Even luke can't set up on a cb outrage. Earthquake only if the last pokemon is ttar or gross, fire blast only if the last pokemon is luke scizor. Pretty simple really. I'd rather attack twice with cb outrage than once with ddlo outrage.

I agree. In balanced teams too, I love how it lures in their Scizor/ bulky water, only to find a 2KO on their hands. It really is gold.

 

[sora13]

So... 11 teams didn't have a Scizor available to revenge kill it?

The set itself is gold only because of one reason. IT TRAPS ROTOM. That itself makes the set worth it.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

Wouldn't a rotom set without wow just switch? And if it used wow, it uses your lum while you use block, then it outspeeds most likely and wow's again...

 

[franky]

UU Heavy Offense is the best thus far for me, so easy, so many hard hitters. If anyone is trying out UU, it should be heavy offense first.