The Sub + Liechi argument was never about power. It was about survivability. Bullet Punch OHKO's a 25% Aggron, along with Mach Punch or Vaccum Wave. Not to mention. Scarf Rotom, Latias, Heatran...the list of common Scarfers can go on and on. After it activates the Leichi, it may die right after it set up and got its kill. The CB Aggron is more a wall breaker and should have usage through out the game.
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Community Create-A-Team #2: Aggron (OU)
- Thread starter Justinawe
- Start date
Sub-Liechi set requires Aggron to be at less than 25% of its HP in order to have the same attack power as the CB set. Compared to the CB set, it means that the CB set could've spent those 2-3 turns to do major amount of damage to the opposition or even getting a few kills with those turns instead of trying to set up a one-time chance to sweep that may or may not be successful.
By "power", most people meant the advantage of forcing switches and being able to summon an immediate surge of wall-breaking power, unlike the Sub-Liechi that doesn't have the same kind of immediate power, and requiring the continue use of Substitute which could likely let the opponent have an easier time to Roar/Whirlwind away the attempt to set-up.
I have seen no evidence beyond questionable theorymon suggesting cb as more effective than sub or rock polish. also, someone pulled out a damage calc for scizor's bp that was inaccurate with my personal experience. it was doing 30% average in my testing.
Aqua Tail only hits two pokemon total, and only makes a difference for one of them (Rhyperior, Hippowdon still beats you), the higher base power doesn't mean shit compared to better type coverage, as Head Smash will hit harder than Aqua Tail if it hits neutral, and EQ hits harder on most rock resists
Ice Punch lets you KO Breloom, who otherwise can take a hit and mach punch you back, guarantees a ko on Gliscor, gets rid of your Flygon weakness and hits outraging dragons without risking a miss.
Superpower doesn't provide any coverage and slowly does less damage. even if it hits SE Head Smash probably does more and doesn't drop your attack every time.
Iron Head is completely outclassed by your other moves damage-wise, steel is a terrible attacking type and you don't have the speed to abuse flinches
Meanwhile Focus Punch is the only thing you got that can scare Swampert enough so that it doesn't switch in on you, Toxic lets you slowly beat walls (not recommended if you're building the team around him though) and Fire Punch lets you hit Bronzong, the only counter that isn't destroyed by a Grass Knot.
^all three of those moves are better than Iron Head and Superpower, and Ice Punch is good enough to make Aqua Tail filler. Base Power doesn't mean anything compared to type coverage for Aggron, since Head Smash will almost always do more than your other moves. the only time the other moves out-damage HS is when Rock is resisted and the other move hits SE, or when Rock hits neutral and the other move is 4x SE, water rarely hits 4x SE, and only hits neutral on most rock resists (EQ almost always does a better job), so it's just an inferior head smash that can hit Rhyperior, Ice Punch/Avalanche is always a better option
This isn't about KO'ing Pokemon. Head Smash is probably going to be your own attacking move. Aqua Tail and Earthquake are for the Pokemon you know are the immediate counters for Aggron (Swampert, Metagross, Hippowdon etc) No one is even going to think about oh Ice Punch OHKO's Breloom? and Flygon? No one really cares. Head Smash is going to be the main form of attack and the things it can't OHKO or 2hko people are concerned about. Aqua Tail and Earthquake takes care of those two. Would you rather be locked in Head Smash or Ice Punch? Only thing i would grant Ice Punch does is KO Gliscor, still isn't worth the risk seeing as Steels and Grounds will be the main switch in. Aqua Tail handles Grounds and Earthquake handles the Steels. They both hold a higher base power than Ice Punch, which is resisted by Steel types (Common Aggron switch ins). Sorry but anyone even warranted switching Breloom (unless it's my Cuteloom) on Aggron is probably an inferior battler and majority of Breloom carry Focus Punch + Sub, which means it has set up first. Flygon i may can understand, but Flygon can only yield its wings once against Aggron.
Head Smash
Earthquake
Aqua Tail
(Whatever the user wants) and as of now i see Fire Punch being leading candidate for hitting OHKO'ing Forretres,, 2hko Bronzong and OHKO'ing you beloved Breloom.
Is pretty much fine with me.
Head Smash vs. 252/40 neutral Gliscor: 81.07%-95.48%.
vs. 0/0 Flygon: 71.76%-84.39%
vs. 44/0 Breloom: 79.41%-93.38%
Honestly, I wouldn't even run Ice Punch on CB Aggron. Flygon and Gliscor have reliable recovery, but the former suffers from the inability to take another hit, and the latter is used to counter pokemon like Lucario.
Quagsire still takes 39.85%-46.95, and it is a bit difficult to justify this when Swampert has better defenses, and Stealth Rock(to me this is far superior to Recover, as Quagsire doesn't help the rest of the team). I really don't think our team should worry about Quagsire when Swampert is bigger and more difficult to take down. Either way, two layers of Toxic Spikes will do them both in.
As for Hippowdon beating CB Aggron: Aqua Tail vs. 252/168 +Hippowdon: 47.38%-55.71%. With a layer of Spikes, this is not true, at all, and much like Gliscor, Hippowdon is used to counter multiple pokemon, and is often found in the lead position anyways(thus likely sustained damage).
I still think the Rock Polish set is the best choice, but there has certainly been some good discussion surrounding the CBer.
vs. 0/0 Flygon: 71.76%-84.39%
vs. 44/0 Breloom: 79.41%-93.38%
Honestly, I wouldn't even run Ice Punch on CB Aggron. Flygon and Gliscor have reliable recovery, but the former suffers from the inability to take another hit, and the latter is used to counter pokemon like Lucario.
Quagsire still takes 39.85%-46.95, and it is a bit difficult to justify this when Swampert has better defenses, and Stealth Rock(to me this is far superior to Recover, as Quagsire doesn't help the rest of the team). I really don't think our team should worry about Quagsire when Swampert is bigger and more difficult to take down. Either way, two layers of Toxic Spikes will do them both in.
As for Hippowdon beating CB Aggron: Aqua Tail vs. 252/168 +Hippowdon: 47.38%-55.71%. With a layer of Spikes, this is not true, at all, and much like Gliscor, Hippowdon is used to counter multiple pokemon, and is often found in the lead position anyways(thus likely sustained damage).
I still think the Rock Polish set is the best choice, but there has certainly been some good discussion surrounding the CBer.
Earthquake and Head Smash hit every pokemon except Rhyperior and Hippowdon harder than Aqua Tail. A really Bulky Hippowdon is still likely only 3HKO'd, which means it can stall it out with Slack Off. So Aqua Tail is really only for Rhyperior and some hippos in OU. Ice Punch gives you something to hit outrage-mence/nite without relying on 80% accuracy, kills the three I've already mentioned enough and gives you a decent general cleanup move
and yeah, fire punch is probably the most useful filler, but it doesn't outclass the other enough to not give them a mention
and yeah, fire punch is probably the most useful filler, but it doesn't outclass the other enough to not give them a mention
Qaugsire takes (36.55% - 42.89%) from a Head Smash, which is a 3hko. Swampert outclasses Quagsire because of ...Stealth Rock? Hahaha! I guess some people actually worship Stealth Rock. I'd rather have a Water/Ground with 5 less HP points and 5 less defense points, but the ability to take on DD dos, and take a CB Aggron, thanks to the move
"Recover." Sure Qaugsire has less attack and Special Defense, but Swampert isn't exactly KO'ing Pokemon left and right, and Cursepert is the only Swampert that runs SpD ev's.
Now on the other hand, the Salamence statement has me convinced. Salamence will probably be the Achilles' heel of most Aggron teams, so Fire Punch or Ice Punch should be the last move. Head Smash isn't missing that much for me,and so far the team i'm using is 17-0 on ladder. Once i play 30 matches i'm going to post the record, the team and tell everyone what is working, and what Pokemon gives Aggron teams difficulty.
I don't know where you are doing your calcs, if you are including CB, and Adamant nature(equates to 525 attack), Head Smash, and 252/160 +Def Quagsire.
First of all, this argument is much like why Cresselia isn't used very often. Sure, she can take some hits and inflict some status, but overall it is more useful to use something like Blissey(for SpD) or Gliscor (for Def), who have a myriad of support options like Stealth Rock(both), Blissey has Aromatherapy and Wish, Gliscor has Taunt and U-Turn. I also lol'd at the fact that you think Quagsire can beat Gyarados. After a DD, with LO, Earthquake deals 50.25%-59.39%, guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock. Bounce does even more, and bulky Gyarados can actually stall your Stone Edge with Rest/Sleep Talk. BTW, Quagsire's Earthquake doesn't always OHKO 4/0 Aggron(91.84%-107.80%), and there are much bulkier variants out there, with Toxic + Magnet Rise.
If you seriously think Recover(this is seriously not even worth mentioning when he has Encore) is more useful than Stealth Rock, which deals atleast 3.125% to every pokemon in the game(barring Magic Guard Clefable), then you are incredibly foolish. If anything, you should be arguing Quagsire is more useful because of Encore(which in certain situations I agree with, like against Gyarados, you can Encore its EQ, send in Latias/Salamence, grab a free boost). Quagsire can't even 2HKO Metagross, which is just pathetic for something that has the typing to beat it.
I get 54.31% max from Earthquake (you might have forgotten to take the +nature into account), which has a very small chance to 2HKO Quagsire assuming it Encores after the first one, then no chance of doing so after Recover barring a crit. SR has no bearing on a Ground type with Leftovers when it comes to 2HKOs following setup, so I don't know why you mentioned that. However, Quaggy would need Stone Edge to beat Taunt variants, and already has enough trouble with spare moveslots as it is. I personally don't think Quagsire is worth a slot in an OU team, but it can beat Gyarados to some extent.
Except that the best option for Quagsire on OU are the Curse ones, which beats Metagross, sets up on Gyarados without Taunt(and the Taunt ones will have to attack with NVE Stone Edges while you attack with your own SE Stone Edges) AND on Aggron regardless of the set.
Cursepert does the same but has to use RestTalk(which loses lots of coverage) or only Rest(means 2 turns for the enemy to do whatever he likes).
While the standard Swampert is set up fodder for Taunt Gyara and can't switch in many times against Aggron.
The "standard Quagsire" will be set up fodder to more pokes than Swampert though(unless it has Encore) and is easily beaten regardless of Recover.. just like Gastrodon has Recover since ever and it's a NU poke now. Seriously, if you use the standard Quagsire, you're just using a worse Swampert.
Nonetheless, as everyone said, Rotom and Latias are great partners to Aggron... Celebi is the nicest one though, with the ability to pass Swords Dance to Aggron.
Cursepert does the same but has to use RestTalk(which loses lots of coverage) or only Rest(means 2 turns for the enemy to do whatever he likes).
While the standard Swampert is set up fodder for Taunt Gyara and can't switch in many times against Aggron.
The "standard Quagsire" will be set up fodder to more pokes than Swampert though(unless it has Encore) and is easily beaten regardless of Recover.. just like Gastrodon has Recover since ever and it's a NU poke now. Seriously, if you use the standard Quagsire, you're just using a worse Swampert.
Nonetheless, as everyone said, Rotom and Latias are great partners to Aggron... Celebi is the nicest one though, with the ability to pass Swords Dance to Aggron.
Alright. Sorry I turned this into a Swampert vs. Quagsire argument, that was certainly not my intent.
You're aruging about a move that over half the Pokemon Pokedex gets. On wall, a recovery move is much more essential than Stealth Rock, lol. Even with Forretress having Rapid Spin, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and screens to help out the entire team. Skarmory is used more than Forretress because of a Roost.
Qaugsire can easily be considered over Swampert because of Recover. Quag takes (45.94% - 54.31%) boosted + Life Orb Earthquake. Swapert takes (43.32% - 50.99%) from a boosted Earthquake and (52.23% - 61.63%) from a boosted + Life Orb Waterfall. The mighty Stealth Rock helps Swampert beat that Gyarados you say? Why use Swampert, when a Heatran can be a viable Stealth Rocker for my team. Stealth Rock is not more important than a Recovery move. Softboil/ Wish is a staple on Blissey, not Stealth Rock. If Swampert got Recover, Stealth Rock would be optioned with Roar, not Recover. Recover would be a staple on ALL Swamperts. When i say Quagsire can actually handle Gyarados is because it can Encore Dragon Dance, shrug off a DD'd Earthquake with Recover and attack back with Stone Edge. not to mention being immune to Gyarados' stab. All Gyarados don't DD right off the bat, they Waterfall (which Quagsire abosrbs). Quagsire can never lose to a Rest Talk DD Gyarados as well as a Crocune, something Swampert fails to do. Qaugsire is superior than Swampert as of right now thanks to Recover and Water Absorb.
There is no standard OU Quagsire, just max its HP and Def for the highest defensive capabilities.
Qaugsire can easily be considered over Swampert because of Recover. Quag takes (45.94% - 54.31%) boosted + Life Orb Earthquake. Swapert takes (43.32% - 50.99%) from a boosted Earthquake and (52.23% - 61.63%) from a boosted + Life Orb Waterfall. The mighty Stealth Rock helps Swampert beat that Gyarados you say? Why use Swampert, when a Heatran can be a viable Stealth Rocker for my team. Stealth Rock is not more important than a Recovery move. Softboil/ Wish is a staple on Blissey, not Stealth Rock. If Swampert got Recover, Stealth Rock would be optioned with Roar, not Recover. Recover would be a staple on ALL Swamperts. When i say Quagsire can actually handle Gyarados is because it can Encore Dragon Dance, shrug off a DD'd Earthquake with Recover and attack back with Stone Edge. not to mention being immune to Gyarados' stab. All Gyarados don't DD right off the bat, they Waterfall (which Quagsire abosrbs). Quagsire can never lose to a Rest Talk DD Gyarados as well as a Crocune, something Swampert fails to do. Qaugsire is superior than Swampert as of right now thanks to Recover and Water Absorb.
There is no standard OU Quagsire, just max its HP and Def for the highest defensive capabilities.
Any good stall player will tell you that Forry is better than Skarmory.
And I'm not saying use Swampert to beat Gyarados. Scarf Latias/Rotom/Flygon(ThunderPunch), Vaporeon, Celebi, Starmie, Porygon2, and many others already do it better than both of them.
Honestly, if you can sweep with a Choiced Pokemon such as Scizor, then I would be very, very surprised. CB Scizor isn't meant to sweep, it's mean to revenge kill and scout. Think about it:
- Bullet Punch: You are automatically Magnezone bait once you are locked into this. If not, then you are set up bait for Lucario.
- U-Turn: A "kill" is not a sweep. U-Turn is meant to scout, so you can't sweep with a move that forces you to switch out.
- Superpower: Easy bait for Intimidate users like Gyarados and Salamence, after you use this once you are just going to be looking at either being revenge killed or set up on.
- Pursuit: Once again, even more set up bait for Lucario.
Anyway, we still need to decide what we want Aggron to be; Sweeper or Wall breaker?
As it has been discussed, if we want our Aggron to be a sweeper, we should use Rock Polish Aggron. If we want it to use it as a wall breaker, we should use SubRise or CB.
Ok i'll wait for a stall player to tell me how much Forretress is better than Skarmory. Anyway, I'm not saying use Swampert to beat Gyarados either. I'm saying, Quagsire does exactly what Swampert does when defending physical sweepers. The move Recover now makes Quagsire the higher candidate when considering either of the two.
I voted Rock Polish. Last week, I got a Head Smash Aron off the GTS (with Rock Head, a Naughty nature, and a perfect Attack IV no less!!!), EV trained it, and got it to level 100. It's running a Rock Polish Life Orb set, and I am kicking ass on PBR! I almost beat this guy on random wifi battles, it was real close. Of course, he was using Rayquaza, Jirachi, and Mewtwo. 3 legendaries, two of them ubers, vs. Arbok, Aggron, and Dunsparce. If his Mewtwo had flinched or been fully paralyzed, I'd have had a chance. But I digress.
I know there's nothing left to discuss until the next stage but at least try to stay remotely on topic guys. What Swampert vs Quagsire and the sweeping merit of Choice Band Scizor have to do with this thread I'll never know.
Hey Justinawe, can we just jump the gun and move onto the Bold Voting now? No point waiting to see if CB makes an amazing comeback, it seems academic now.
Hey Justinawe, can we just jump the gun and move onto the Bold Voting now? No point waiting to see if CB makes an amazing comeback, it seems academic now.
I agree Lee, time for some bold voting!
Ok everyone, please post in this thread ONLY saying what set you think would be best to use, in BOLD and explain why you think that set should be used for this team over all of the other sets. Any post after this one that does not have a bolded vote and explain why will be deleted!
Ok everyone, please post in this thread ONLY saying what set you think would be best to use, in BOLD and explain why you think that set should be used for this team over all of the other sets. Any post after this one that does not have a bolded vote and explain why will be deleted!
I agree with you, and U-Turn really does take it's toll. However, one must remember that Scizor's "counters" such as Zapdos and Skarmory can simply Roost of any damage they take in the process, so it's an uphill battle for Scizor most of the time. And Rotom is bulky enough to easily take a couple of U-Turns and then smacking it with Will-o-Wisp or Overheat.
Rock Polish
I beleive Rock Polish is the set we should be using on Aggron. I know it may be outclassed by Metagross or Rhyperior, but I think we should recognize that we are using Aggron, not Metagross. If we plan on building a team around Aggron, I feel we should use it to it's best potential. Rock Polish Aggron is probably the best shot we have at having Aggron sweep. We shouldn't' be building a team around a Choice Band Pokemon because it is simple to fit those into teams. Our last CCAT was focused on Swords Dance Flame Orb Heracross, who was said to be outclassed as a sweeper, yet we found a way to use it effectively. I think the same can be said about Aggron.
My vote goes to CB.
The reasons why I think so is that Aggron's greatest asset, Head Smash, would be used most efficiently from a banded set (is Aggron really going to be using its other attacks often). In addition, it has the resistances and raw power to pull it off. If we want to use Aggron as a RP sweeper, there already exists better options such as Metagross whose has better stats, Clear Body, easier time setting-up, and a useful move in Explosion to make holes in opposing teams.
The reasons why I think so is that Aggron's greatest asset, Head Smash, would be used most efficiently from a banded set (is Aggron really going to be using its other attacks often). In addition, it has the resistances and raw power to pull it off. If we want to use Aggron as a RP sweeper, there already exists better options such as Metagross whose has better stats, Clear Body, easier time setting-up, and a useful move in Explosion to make holes in opposing teams.