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Hmmm I never thought of Abomasnow... and it sounds reasonable. I just checked on Libelldra how hard it hits. And yeah, it's not bad idea.
116 SpA Blizzard Abomasnow (standard for ScarfObama) vs 4 HP Garchomp with Yache Berry
87,39% to 103,08% -> 53,85% for OHKO with SR up. Well... still solid chance to survive, but you may just run Max SpA and be happy. Ok, I take my words back for no-gimmick ice attacking Scarfer, which can beat YacheChomp - he may switch in from start (if you're cocky enough), OHKO back through Yache and not let Garchomp have his fun with some good prediction. Or at least revenge-kill it with good effect. So there is scarfer, which may rely on Ice move to beat YacheChomp and it's not gimmick. But still, has the same problems like Latias, but yeah, Sand Veil won't be a problem for him which is good selling point for winter tree.
Sounds fair enough and you convinced me enough to just not include in future W-B characteristics. Support Characteristics is interesting idea to include Garchomp under it as it really breaks through any wall easily.
Actually 20% is really not a best case scenario at all. The 20% is assuming only SS and a chance to force a switch as support that's basically nothing. All the (relevant) support that Garchomp received in that battle was SS and a free switch in against a pokemon that was forced to switch out. There is no way that that is an infrequent best case scenario.
Havak could have softened up Swampert first, giving him a 59% chance of winning outright.
Here's a tip: the first couple of times you send in chomp just attack and then switch. You can trick your opponent into thinking you have choice scarf, and soften up their checks. You can afford to switch Chomp in a few times to do this because it isnt weak to SR or SS.
Also try spreading a little paralysis about. It isnt that hard to do, it will increase your odds dramatically.
Seriously I have been using this set. It sweeps in about half of my wins. And the fact is I have been winning a lot.
If you have 1 priority move and Swampert and a Garchomp and you switch away from Garchomp then you have a 20% chance of losing to subsalac chomp basically at best.
A lot of people have said that Scizor and Latias is enough to check Garchomp. It's not. If this is what you have to defend against Chomp you will lose to sub salac chomp 59% of the time basically at best.
If you have a priority move and a bulky pokemon with icebeam your chance of being swept outright by Salamence is pretty much none. If you have a pokemon faster than Lucario that's not KOed by ES then your chance of being swept by lucario is pretty much none. What you need to not be swept outright by Garchomp is really, really specific..
Skarmory and Bronzong are pretty good at stopping this set (but not so much against the normal SDer). But there are a significant proportion of teams that dont have either (as should be the case). However it's not like they cant be eliminated with the right support..
And at deluge, ok I misread the characteristics, honestly I was surprised at how clearly it supported my argument. But I was making that argument based on my knowledge of the characteristics and the fact they made everything so clear was just a bonus.
The point is your argument is doubly irrelevant. Firstly: Garchomp does sweep whole teams. It usually doesnt bother because it can increase its odds by waiting til endgame. But when you are losing, a 20% chance is pretty significant.
Secondly: With little effort implies it can have some support. It isnt more than little effort for my other 5 pokemon to eliminate 1 of my opponent's. IE Garchomp doesnt need to sweep the entire team.
Oh yeah, the wall breaking characteristic is already covered by support. If you break a wall, then pokemon will sweep. That's the point.
Have a nice day.
Havak could have softened up Swampert first, giving him a 59% chance of winning outright.
Here's a tip: the first couple of times you send in chomp just attack and then switch. You can trick your opponent into thinking you have choice scarf, and soften up their checks. You can afford to switch Chomp in a few times to do this because it isnt weak to SR or SS.
Also try spreading a little paralysis about. It isnt that hard to do, it will increase your odds dramatically.
Seriously I have been using this set. It sweeps in about half of my wins. And the fact is I have been winning a lot.
If you have 1 priority move and Swampert and a Garchomp and you switch away from Garchomp then you have a 20% chance of losing to subsalac chomp basically at best.
A lot of people have said that Scizor and Latias is enough to check Garchomp. It's not. If this is what you have to defend against Chomp you will lose to sub salac chomp 59% of the time basically at best.
If you have a priority move and a bulky pokemon with icebeam your chance of being swept outright by Salamence is pretty much none. If you have a pokemon faster than Lucario that's not KOed by ES then your chance of being swept by lucario is pretty much none. What you need to not be swept outright by Garchomp is really, really specific..
Skarmory and Bronzong are pretty good at stopping this set (but not so much against the normal SDer). But there are a significant proportion of teams that dont have either (as should be the case). However it's not like they cant be eliminated with the right support..
And at deluge, ok I misread the characteristics, honestly I was surprised at how clearly it supported my argument. But I was making that argument based on my knowledge of the characteristics and the fact they made everything so clear was just a bonus.
The point is your argument is doubly irrelevant. Firstly: Garchomp does sweep whole teams. It usually doesnt bother because it can increase its odds by waiting til endgame. But when you are losing, a 20% chance is pretty significant.
Secondly: With little effort implies it can have some support. It isnt more than little effort for my other 5 pokemon to eliminate 1 of my opponent's. IE Garchomp doesnt need to sweep the entire team.
Oh yeah, the wall breaking characteristic is already covered by support. If you break a wall, then pokemon will sweep. That's the point.
Have a nice day.
Give any pokémon the right support and they'll dominate. I mean, I could be an ass and point out Baton Passing +6 everything to Clamperl will make it every bit as deadly as anything else passed +6 everything but there's much simpler cases for many OU pokémon. Give many special attackers Toxic Spikes support to deal with Blissey and friends (or Vaporeon for shit like Crocune) and they're suddenly a lot more dangerous. Have any pokémon use Rain Dance and viola, Kingdra or even Kabutops become exceedingly powerful and you don't exactly want to switch T-Tar/Hippo into most Water pokémon to get rid of the weather early either. (Hell, Kingdra's a lot more scary than Garchomp.) I'd bet a good portion of Magnezone usage exists primarily to get rid of Scizor, which opens the way for something like DDTar to sweep. This is really basic stuff.
Don't assume anything that you can't outright guarantee will happen. "Could have softened up his Swampert?" There's no guarantee you can make your opponent expose their Swampert any earlier than they have to use it, you can only control what you do. In this case, you could use Spikes to ensure Swampert takes some damage upon switching in, though you'll need all three layers to really make sure you can nab the OHKO if it starts at full health. Something like a Suicune is more resilient and will require non-guaranteed residual damage beforehand, while you might need something else entirely to avoid Cresselia or Skarmory getting in the way.
Garchomp can't just come in at any time, decide "hey I'm gonna set up" with nothing more than maybe Sand Stream running for support, and sweep teams. No, that's how Garchomp ends up trading with one of many "bulkymons" out there, walled by Skarmory, revenged by Latias 90% of the time. It begs you to use Magnezone, especially if you're using a Choice variant, to force Shed Shell onto the Spikers and kill the other Steels. Lucky for it, Tyranitar makes a great partner by being the premier Latias check in addition to providing Sand Stream. (But even it can't switch into Specs Surf, Specs Meteor if SR is on the field, and you still can't force Latias to come in so you can trap it.) I'm sure it'd like you to get entry hazards down so it has a better chance of OHKOing those troublesome bulky waters at +2. Toxic Spikes completely ruins Garchomp, be a pal and run Roserade or Venusaur to suck them up without the issue of having to fenagle your way around the opponent's Ghost to use Rapid Spin.
Once you start having to provide that support to Garchomp to regularly get it to sweep teams, it's really not all that uber any more. It's just one of a ton of generic sweepers, one which you just happened to choose to build around. Many people do, as building around Garchomp is pretty easy, but I could just as well build around Lucario, Empoleon, one of the zillion Dragon Dancers. It's not like Yanmega in UU, where all you really had to do was switch it in after a Rapid Spin and it wrecked house (or it could just dominate at 50% health much of the time). Being successful with Garchomp is more than just throwing it on the same team as T-Tar, Sand Veil alone doesn't lead to a sweep often enough to be relied upon.
Zorbees, your post is a joke. Obviously, a pokemon that hits harder and lasts longer is more likely going to be able to fulfill one of the Uber Characteristics. That's not to say that maybe Garchomp still isn't "good enough" to be considered Uber. Maybe it is! But I don't really see it, as it's neither exceptionally stronger nor bulkier than many of its comparable OU buddies.
Don't assume anything that you can't outright guarantee will happen. "Could have softened up his Swampert?" There's no guarantee you can make your opponent expose their Swampert any earlier than they have to use it, you can only control what you do. In this case, you could use Spikes to ensure Swampert takes some damage upon switching in, though you'll need all three layers to really make sure you can nab the OHKO if it starts at full health. Something like a Suicune is more resilient and will require non-guaranteed residual damage beforehand, while you might need something else entirely to avoid Cresselia or Skarmory getting in the way.
Garchomp can't just come in at any time, decide "hey I'm gonna set up" with nothing more than maybe Sand Stream running for support, and sweep teams. No, that's how Garchomp ends up trading with one of many "bulkymons" out there, walled by Skarmory, revenged by Latias 90% of the time. It begs you to use Magnezone, especially if you're using a Choice variant, to force Shed Shell onto the Spikers and kill the other Steels. Lucky for it, Tyranitar makes a great partner by being the premier Latias check in addition to providing Sand Stream. (But even it can't switch into Specs Surf, Specs Meteor if SR is on the field, and you still can't force Latias to come in so you can trap it.) I'm sure it'd like you to get entry hazards down so it has a better chance of OHKOing those troublesome bulky waters at +2. Toxic Spikes completely ruins Garchomp, be a pal and run Roserade or Venusaur to suck them up without the issue of having to fenagle your way around the opponent's Ghost
Once you start having to provide that support to Garchomp to regularly get it to sweep teams, it's really not all that uber any more. It's just one of a ton of generic sweepers, one which you just happened to choose to build around. Many people do, as building around Garchomp is pretty easy, but I could just as well build around Lucario, Empoleon, one of the zillion Dragon Dancers. It's not like Yanmega in UU, where all you really had to do was switch it in after a Rapid Spin and it wrecked house (or it could just dominate at 50% health much of the time). Being successful with Garchomp is more than just throwing it on the same team as T-Tar, Sand Veil alone doesn't lead to a sweep often enough to be relied upon.
Zorbees, your post is a joke. Obviously, a pokemon that hits harder and lasts longer is more likely going to be able to fulfill one of the Uber Characteristics. That's not to say that maybe Garchomp still isn't "good enough" to be considered Uber. Maybe it is! But I don't really see it, as it's neither exceptionally stronger nor bulkier than many of its comparable OU buddies.
Pretty much with Mr. E in this aspect. Sand Veil isn't a very relevant factor to me here. Garchomp ain't setting up Sandstorm itself--it has to rely on either on either getting a Ttar or Hippowdon (whether it be the opponent's or their own) out there to get Sandstream going. Thus, if the breaking factor on which Garchomp's fate depends is Sand Veil, then really it should be Tyranitar and Hippowdon getting banned under the Support Characteristic for making Garchomp too much, and not Garchomp itself, since it would be fine in the absence of them.
However, that all comes down to that if. If Garchomp proves to be too much even ignoring that, then yeah, it's Uber-material. But assuming that Sand Veil does come down to being the breaking point, then we're looking at the wrong beast here, as Sand Veil is not an innately active ability of Garchomp's or anything and thus it can't really be banned for it, since it needs to rely on other Pokemon in order to be able to use it.
However, that all comes down to that if. If Garchomp proves to be too much even ignoring that, then yeah, it's Uber-material. But assuming that Sand Veil does come down to being the breaking point, then we're looking at the wrong beast here, as Sand Veil is not an innately active ability of Garchomp's or anything and thus it can't really be banned for it, since it needs to rely on other Pokemon in order to be able to use it.
CBAboma is working nicely in Suspects at the moment. Although CB+Ice Shard is pretty much outclassed by Mamoswine and Weavile, Aboma being able to neutralise Sand Veil is what's going for it (Mamoswine and Weavile risk missing and getting killed by Chomp). Ice Shard OHKOs Chomp unless he's holding Yache (Which means I can revenge it with my ScarfChomp with no problem at all), does a truckload to Latias and Wood Hammer also does a truckload to Manaphy (And forces it to use Ice Beam as well), not to mention it can hurt TTar trying to come in and set up Sand again.
Oh, I am also seeing a massive lack of SR while playing Suspects. Everyone's throwing around Spikes to hurt Garchomp these days that SR is usually not present. This means MixMence or hell even SpecsMence (Who is absent btw) can just come in and nuke something and just piss off and come back later for free (Lack of Blissey also helps too).
Oh, I am also seeing a massive lack of SR while playing Suspects. Everyone's throwing around Spikes to hurt Garchomp these days that SR is usually not present. This means MixMence or hell even SpecsMence (Who is absent btw) can just come in and nuke something and just piss off and come back later for free (Lack of Blissey also helps too).
Of course there is no guarantee, I havent assumed anything, hence the word "could". Also Pert was obviously the SR user on the team, so that is some guarantee it would have come out before Garchomp was ready to sweep.
You said that the 20% figure was a "best case" scenario, the only worse scenario was Garchomp being forced to set up on Swampert, Latias or Scizor. Essentially that FG would win with just those three pokes. You assumed that Swampert couldnt be softened up when you said 20% was a worst case scenario.
Garchomp does require support to regularly sweep teams. But not much. Significantly less than any other pokemon in OU. And if you fail to get the support you require, you still have a decent chance of sweeping without it.
Kingdra is nowhere near as scary as Garchomp.
The point is you battle and set things up until you have the best chance of sweeping and that is when you use Garchomp. If you are losing before this point your odds will be poor, that's sorta where the 20% figure is likely, hence worst case scenario. But to turn a losing situation into a 20% chance of winning outright is damn good.
If you arent losing your odds start getting better and better very quickly. It's all I have done on suspect and it works really, really well.
Also how come it is so easy to rapid spin for Yanmega but so hard to do it for Garchomp?
And just so you know TTar can be EV'd to survive 2 specs surfs from Latias easily.
Have a nice day.
You said that the 20% figure was a "best case" scenario, the only worse scenario was Garchomp being forced to set up on Swampert, Latias or Scizor. Essentially that FG would win with just those three pokes. You assumed that Swampert couldnt be softened up when you said 20% was a worst case scenario.
Garchomp does require support to regularly sweep teams. But not much. Significantly less than any other pokemon in OU. And if you fail to get the support you require, you still have a decent chance of sweeping without it.
Kingdra is nowhere near as scary as Garchomp.
Yes it can. It isnt guaranteed, and it may not even be >50% likely, but it can do it and it does do it. And no other pokemon does it anywhere near as effectively.
The point is you battle and set things up until you have the best chance of sweeping and that is when you use Garchomp. If you are losing before this point your odds will be poor, that's sorta where the 20% figure is likely, hence worst case scenario. But to turn a losing situation into a 20% chance of winning outright is damn good.
If you arent losing your odds start getting better and better very quickly. It's all I have done on suspect and it works really, really well.
Also how come it is so easy to rapid spin for Yanmega but so hard to do it for Garchomp?
And just so you know TTar can be EV'd to survive 2 specs surfs from Latias easily.
Have a nice day.
How was my post a joke? By saying that Garchomp is more threatening than TTar? TTar is slow and has vital weaknesses in Fighting, Ground, and Steel. Garchomp is much faster than TTar, and actually hits stronger due to higher base power on its attacks. TTar also has many more checks and even counters (sure you can use a novelty move like Aerial Ace or HP-Grass to beat a counter but you'd have 4 moveslot syndrome in that case) than Garchomp. I think it is a joke that you think TTar is more threatening than Garchomp, and I'm sure most intelligent people would agree with me.
The formula from stage 3.1:
(Rating * (4SkyminSEXP + 3.5GarchompSEXP + 3LatiosSEXP + 1.5ManaphySEXP + LatiasSEXP))
Yeah, other Pokemon are dangerous, but they can be somehow countered.
Garchomp doesn't need to run special attacks because, as stated before, a SD fire fang 2hkos Skarmory and Bronzong and they can't do much in return. About the rain: as stated before, rain sweepers require much more support than Garchomp. Rain only lasts 5 turns (8 with damp rock) and is easy to cancel switching in TTar or Hippowdon (you can sacrifice them if need be, just to stop a rain sweeper). Rain requires at least one turn of set up, sand requires none. About the life orb argument: Garchomp may run life orb itslef, being even more scary than it actually is. Yeah, Kingdra can use draco meteor, but then its sweep is almost finished as it's forced to switch out in most cases, else it becomes set up fodder for things like Gyarados. Vaporeon still walls mix-Dra no matter what Kingdra does. A properly EVd Celebi can switch in on the turn Kingdra sets up the rain or DD and paralyze it.
Yeah, I like Kingdra too. It's a great Pokemon, and if it had Garchomp's 130 base Atk I'm sure we'd have to suspect test it too.
Ice punch does nothing to yache Chomp. And even doing 43% to Chomp means that Garchomp still wins as it can EQ on the first turn leaving Machamp at 20% of its health, then switch out to a ghost and come back later in the game at 50%+ of its health to finish its job and maybe killing some other Pokemon in the process. Oh, and by the way, if Garchomp carries outrage, then it doesn't even need to switch out as:
718 Atk vs 284 Def & 384 HP (120 Base Power): 325 - 384 (84.64% - 100.00%)
which is an almost sure ohko with SR and sandstorm. Once again my calculations refer to an impish max HP \ max Def Machamp (which is pretty unlikely).
Yes, Abomasnow can revenge kill Garchomp but it's pretty much a dead weight on evey team that doesn't focus on ice type Pokemon. Nonetheless, it's weak to SR and the only attack it can switch in is an EQ. Once again, can't Aboma revenge kill Rayquaza with ice shard?
Yeah, ok, so CB Mamo can revenge kill Garchomp when it's at about 65% of its health. Weavile can achieve a similar result... Can they switch into Garchomp? No! And I always assume yache berry when trying to think of a Garchomp counter, as it's arguably the best item for it.
Groudon was obviously a provocation. And yeah, the point of my reply to your previous post was exactly the underlined passage above.
I'm not questioning that there are some Ubers that are stronger than others. Although I don't play ubers, I think that it's pretty obvious that Mewtwo is stronger that Mew or that Lugia is better that Deoxys-D. Some uber Pokemon have higher base stats, better abilities or typing, larger learnsets, but that doesn't mean that other Pokemon, with lower base stats and different typing\learnsets can't be uber as well. As long as they fulfill any of the uber characteristics they're uber regardless of their base stats.
Once again, base stats are not decisive about a Pokemon's tiering. TTar is an extremely good Pokemon, but has a terrible defensive typing when compared to Garchomp, and abysmal speed. Nonetheless, it lacks the access to SD, and even with a DD or two under its belt, it's not fast enough to outspeed random scarfers, like Garchomp itself. And the fact that TTar is so popular, is just good news for Garchomp as they work nicely in tandem, with TTar taking care of Latias (and, why not, luring in Scizor\Skarmory and eliminating them with flamethrower\fire punch\fire blast) and Chomp abusing sand veil to sweep mid-to late game.
Yeah, that's the problem, actually. People are prepared to face Garchomp, nontheless most of them have problems dealing with it (or, at least, that's what I got reading these pages). I think that this may be taken as a clue of Garchomp's status. See, I remember that when playing Latias' suspect test (back in december 2008), people used to say that they had little troubles with Latias because of cetralization (during Latios' test someone also claimed that Latios was a dead weight on his team!). For some reason this is not happening with Garchomp.
Now now, don't hate on Abomasnow. Heck, you don't have to use any other Ice pokémon at all, merely build your team conscious of the fact of which pokémon are going to take that continual 1/16 residual damage. It hurts your opponent just as much, only you'll be slightly more prepared for it. Your EVs can be slightly more optimal, knowing you can now assure target KOs with less attack power (or no longer avoid one with standard defenses) and allocate those points elsewhere, plus you know not to use anything gimmicky that Hail stops cold. (e.g. Reversal Scizor or Lucario.) There's nothing to suggest you have to go heavy on Ice-types, other than people just thinking "oh that's how it's gotta be, else Hail is helping your opponent equally!" Unlike the ubiquity of Sand Stream, most people aren't going to be as well-prepared to face Hail (except other Abomasnow users), automatically placing the advantage on you whether or not your own pokémon are immune to the damage.
I see plenty of people, including myself, saying that Garchomp is not a major problem to their team. I think part of the larger-than-normal outcry against Garchomp is just people venting about getting lucked by Sand Veil. No doubt Sand Veil is a contributing factor to Garchomp's success but you're doing it wrong if Garchomp can sweep you with just one miss (two against SubChomp). That, or your team's core has already been weakened, in which case it's perfectly acceptable to find a sweeper doing its job finishing out the match.
Just because Garchomp isn't worn down by SR/SS/LO recoil the way many of OU's other sweepers are doesn't make it overpowered. Latias doesn't fall into that category and wrecks a lot of people if their precious T-Tar fails to do the job of trap-killing it, plus it has Recover to fight residual damage and more resiliency than Garchomp to being worn down by direct damage. Toxic Spikes doesn't even work on Latias and Light Screen is less useful than Reflect in a physically-heavy metagame, so beating Latias is arguably even tougher than Garchomp. But Latias is apparently no trouble to beat! Why, just because teams carry a Pursuit user four times as often as they use TSpikes? Because they continue to use WoW on their Rotom-A instead of Reflect? People need to quit crying about Garchomp beating their bog standard team ill-prepared to fight it off and actually prepare for it properly, like any other threat.
Also, instead of getting pissed that Garchomp occasionally evades its way to victory on occasion and clamoring to get it banned, acknowledge that's just how pokémon works sometimes and Garchomp isn't even the only pokémon with that "extra" hax factor (in addition to crits and sub-100% attacks missing). Lots of people have horror stories about Jirachi flinching down their Magnezone, Gyarados flinching/freezing their best check to it, or Metagross getting an early Attack boost and wrecking house.
I see plenty of people, including myself, saying that Garchomp is not a major problem to their team. I think part of the larger-than-normal outcry against Garchomp is just people venting about getting lucked by Sand Veil. No doubt Sand Veil is a contributing factor to Garchomp's success but you're doing it wrong if Garchomp can sweep you with just one miss (two against SubChomp). That, or your team's core has already been weakened, in which case it's perfectly acceptable to find a sweeper doing its job finishing out the match.
Just because Garchomp isn't worn down by SR/SS/LO recoil the way many of OU's other sweepers are doesn't make it overpowered. Latias doesn't fall into that category and wrecks a lot of people if their precious T-Tar fails to do the job of trap-killing it, plus it has Recover to fight residual damage and more resiliency than Garchomp to being worn down by direct damage. Toxic Spikes doesn't even work on Latias and Light Screen is less useful than Reflect in a physically-heavy metagame, so beating Latias is arguably even tougher than Garchomp. But Latias is apparently no trouble to beat! Why, just because teams carry a Pursuit user four times as often as they use TSpikes? Because they continue to use WoW on their Rotom-A instead of Reflect? People need to quit crying about Garchomp beating their bog standard team ill-prepared to fight it off and actually prepare for it properly, like any other threat.
Also, instead of getting pissed that Garchomp occasionally evades its way to victory on occasion and clamoring to get it banned, acknowledge that's just how pokémon works sometimes and Garchomp isn't even the only pokémon with that "extra" hax factor (in addition to crits and sub-100% attacks missing). Lots of people have horror stories about Jirachi flinching down their Magnezone, Gyarados flinching/freezing their best check to it, or Metagross getting an early Attack boost and wrecking house.
Garchomp is the one that should be banned because it can do the most damage in that turn you miss. For instant, one miss, it can kill just about any Pokemon. Latias' Draco Meteor misses, dead. Manaphy's Ice Beam misses, dead. Pokemon like Gyarados have textbook counters, who even if they are 'flinched' do not budge. These would be Vaporeon, Porygon2, etc. Metagross, even if it gets an Attack boost, can still be countered by Rotom-A and burned (not to mention Meteor Mash itself can miss). If your Ice Beam misses a Gliscor, chances are Earthquake won't be killing you (at least the most common Gliscor) which means you can use Ice Beam once more. That is not the case with Garchomp, who can 2HKO any Pokemon in the game after a Swords Dance.
So you are saying you need multiple ways to beat Garchomp in order to make a correct, successful team? In the RMT forum, raters are not suppose to use the "If X dies, then Y sweeps you" mentality, however you are encouraging people to address this. You are saying people should be going the extra mile to keep Garchomp in check, which should emphasize how influencial (and ultimately broken) Garchomp is. Since Garchomp has no true counter, this is a lot harder than you make it out to be, especially compared to other Pokemon.
Mr.E said:
So you are saying you need multiple ways to beat Garchomp in order to make a correct, successful team? In the RMT forum, raters are not suppose to use the "If X dies, then Y sweeps you" mentality, however you are encouraging people to address this. You are saying people should be going the extra mile to keep Garchomp in check, which should emphasize how influencial (and ultimately broken) Garchomp is. Since Garchomp has no true counter, this is a lot harder than you make it out to be, especially compared to other Pokemon.
None of those things happen nearly so often.
I am assuming that part of the larger-than-normal support of garchomp is from people who lose to it and say "oh pokemon" when they should have been saying "oh garchomp".
And dont be ridiculous Tentacruel, Roserade or Forretress are nowhere near as easy to use as Tyranitar, Scizor or Metagross.
Reflect on Rotom doesnt even work particularly well against Chomp. Chomp has swords dance and reflect does nothing to prevent Chomp sweeping you next time..
The fact is to prepare for any other threat usually takes about 1 and a half pokemon. Pert + Scizor and Salamence wont sweep you. Pert + Scizor and SubChomp can 27% of the time, Yachechomp like 36% (actually this is way higher, since pert doesnt do enough with icebeam against yache for scizor to finish it off). Pert + Scizor + Latias makes you mostly safe against Yachechomp but it doesnt change the figure against Subsalac (unless it's a scarf latias I guess).
A bulky water with hp electric and Gyarados wont sweep you.
When you are talking about Jirachi killing Magnezone with flinches that is when we really are getting into the 1 in 150 chance areas..
Your team has a latias, 2 priority moves and a swampert and I have still seen you swept by Garchomp. You were unlucky, but not all that unlucky.
Have a nice day.
I am assuming that part of the larger-than-normal support of garchomp is from people who lose to it and say "oh pokemon" when they should have been saying "oh garchomp".
And dont be ridiculous Tentacruel, Roserade or Forretress are nowhere near as easy to use as Tyranitar, Scizor or Metagross.
Reflect on Rotom doesnt even work particularly well against Chomp. Chomp has swords dance and reflect does nothing to prevent Chomp sweeping you next time..
The fact is to prepare for any other threat usually takes about 1 and a half pokemon. Pert + Scizor and Salamence wont sweep you. Pert + Scizor and SubChomp can 27% of the time, Yachechomp like 36% (actually this is way higher, since pert doesnt do enough with icebeam against yache for scizor to finish it off). Pert + Scizor + Latias makes you mostly safe against Yachechomp but it doesnt change the figure against Subsalac (unless it's a scarf latias I guess).
A bulky water with hp electric and Gyarados wont sweep you.
When you are talking about Jirachi killing Magnezone with flinches that is when we really are getting into the 1 in 150 chance areas..
Your team has a latias, 2 priority moves and a swampert and I have still seen you swept by Garchomp. You were unlucky, but not all that unlucky.
Have a nice day.
just thrown garchomp in for 2 battles, 1 battle it killed 3 (ity got lucky for the 3rd kill it had 33% and took 32% then OHKoed the offneding poke) other time i didnt use it.
cant say it was giving me huge greif, just losing pokes i need to get rid or it being killed by correcting for the insane ammount of hypnosis misses i seem to be getting on everything, apart from the ease of going ground weak heavy (hence the inclusion of chomp to replace my vire) if its not scarfed i can get rid, if it is and i can get it to outrage then i can at least burn it with heatran unscarfed i have plenty of checks (DD gyara, HP ice infernape, occa scizor which can get rid of annoying magnazones as well take garchomps fire attacks giving me a good bug bite on it).
but i cant help but feel we are all focusing on garchomp too much, everything is revolving around that, latais is checking garchomp so really people are looking past its overall power, and poor manaphy is being tested in an almost pure sandstorm enviroment where it cant be at its strongest.
if we are going to test manaphy it needs to be out of garchomp testing period, where rain teams might pop up a bit more.
cant say it was giving me huge greif, just losing pokes i need to get rid or it being killed by correcting for the insane ammount of hypnosis misses i seem to be getting on everything, apart from the ease of going ground weak heavy (hence the inclusion of chomp to replace my vire) if its not scarfed i can get rid, if it is and i can get it to outrage then i can at least burn it with heatran unscarfed i have plenty of checks (DD gyara, HP ice infernape, occa scizor which can get rid of annoying magnazones as well take garchomps fire attacks giving me a good bug bite on it).
but i cant help but feel we are all focusing on garchomp too much, everything is revolving around that, latais is checking garchomp so really people are looking past its overall power, and poor manaphy is being tested in an almost pure sandstorm enviroment where it cant be at its strongest.
if we are going to test manaphy it needs to be out of garchomp testing period, where rain teams might pop up a bit more.
Toxic Spiking is not a picnic. Tentacruel has a hard time getting off even one turn to use them in the current metagame. Roserade as a lead can put up a layer, but the most popular leads being Azelf, Metagross, and Jirachi, there's a good chance that you'll get no layers out of it. Forretress is perhaps the best candidate for the role, and it can easily get off at least a layer in a match, I'll admit that.
But then what? Garchomp is on the field, and its losing 12.5% per turn. So? You've clocked its sweep at 8 turns. That's still more than enough for it to turn a couple Pokemon into pudding. A Poisoned Garchomp is still a Garchomp with all its Speed, Attack, type coverage, and Sand Veil, and it is still capable of sweeping. Maybe if we had Burn or Paralysis Spikes...
The Rotom comment confuses me. If I get what you're saying, Garchomp comes in and you set up Reflect, assuming that the Rotom user has perfect prediction skills, because if he doesn't, the appliance will be dead or forced out (and if he Reflects too early, Garchomp's not coming in). But if you're Thunderbolt/Reflect/Rest/Sleep Talk, you've been walled anyways, Garchomp can set up or just wear down its counter and return later, and if you're facing a SubChomp, most likely your screen will be gone by the time of the actual attack.
Garchomp can threaten sweep, and often actually sweep, with the metagame standing on its head to stop it. There are no safe switch-ins to a Garchomp. Few other Pokemon can claim to hold such power. A mediocre team with a YacheChomp thrown on it instantly becomes an excellent team. There are plenty of educated people on both sides of the Garchomp debate. But it is a threat that cannot be defeated by simple Swampert+Scizor tactics as can Salamence. Add to the fact that Garchomp can effectively use Choice items, and even more effectively bluff choice items to mess with your opponent's battling choices, and you have a monster.
EDIT: woot, 666 posts. I'm very demonic, I assure you.
I have ShucaChi with Ice Punch, HabanLatias, Forretress with Explosion and Toxic Spikes, Dugtrio to trap weakened ones, and SubSalac Naive Magnezone with HP Ice to sub down and outspeed. I still have some trouble trouble with Garchomp. Can I cry now?
Anyhow, this preparation that at times seems underprepared still gives me slight problems with Manaphy, Skarmory, and bulky steels. Which stinks too.
You overprepared lol... that is the problem for some users. Centralize too much on beating Chomp, but lose vs other Pokemon. Those Pokemon that beat you most likely set up Chomp so easily, that it tore your team apart =o.
That's exactly what I'm saying, keeping in mind that this applies to a whole lot of other pokémon as well. It's even the downfall of many a stall team, who tend to overly rely on Blissey to sponge special attacks and then get destroyed by Empoleon or Latias when it gets blown up by Heatran or Magnezone. Maybe they should replace that Swampert with a Suicune instead. Two or three usable checks is better than a single strong counter, as it's all too easy to overload a single pokémon with defensive duties or the opponent could be carrying a move to lure in and defeat the pokémon you thought would counter it.
The idea of a "counter" for half of the upper tier of OU is almost laughable these days anyway. Salamence, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Kingdra don't have any real counters at all. Many others only have a single good one, such as Cresselia for Infernape, or shaky ones like Blissey for Latias or Empoleon. (What if Latias Trickscarfs it or has CM/Refresh? What if Empoleon is running a Swords Dance set?)
Ease of use is irrelevant, though I wouldn't say Roserade or Forretress are very difficult to use at all. All that means is more people probably use them, which says nothing about how good the pokémon actually is. Kingdra isn't easy to use but it's the most dangerous pokémon in OU when supported and used properly.
Rotom can Reflect on the same turn Garchomp uses SD, so Garchomp still deals 100% damage. If Garchomp uses SD again next turn it's only dealing 150% damage (300%/2), instead of the 200% damage it'd be dealing with +2 attack and no Reflect. That is to say, Reflect decreases damage better than SD boosts it, as attack boosting suffers diminishing returns. Reflect is a good move in general and does a good job of scaring off Garchomp, who is basically a pure sweeper and totally doesn't like its damage being neutered like that. Burn does that too, actually, but Reflect can't be blocked by an opponent's Substitute and doesn't miss...
On average, YacheChomp will be put in CB Scizor's Bullet Punch kill range from SR + min SpA Swampert Ice Beam. Ice Punch comes very close (boosted Avalanche would obviously do it by a mile) and even minimum attack investment can guarantee it, which isn't that difficult since a mere max HP is enough for Swampert to survive +2 Earthquake. Yache is more useful if Scizor ain't lurking back there, or you can actually manage to set up at 80%+ (like early help from Sand Veil) and survive a mid-sweep Ice Shard.
Anyway, yeah that sounds about right if Swampert + Scizor is all you have to possibly beat Garchomp, nevermind any possible support moves or any other pokémon that outspeed Garchomp or avoid a +2 OHKO. Those two work better against Salamence, as Scizor hurts it a little more and it doesn't usually carry a Yache Berry for Swampert's Ice attack. But how about we take a different "one and a half" pokémon like, say, Skarmory + Latias? Salamence hits Skarmory a lot harder with Fire Blast and it outspeeds non-Scarf Latias with a DD. Skarmory is an annoying pest for SD/three attack Garchomp and completely stuffs all over sets, plus its Spikes support wears Garchomp down the way SR usually wears down Salamence.
Of course, even disregarding other pokémon, is it a big deal that Garchomp sweeps a team with Swampert/Scizor (with no other Garchomp checks, direct nor indirect) about 1/4 of the time? 27% of the time... if you're even using Sand Stream. Only about 30% of teams, at least in Stage 3-1, used T-Tar together with Garchomp, plus minimal Hippowdon usage. (Between any two players with Garchomp, Sand Stream active only ~55% of the time. Overall, it's less than 50%.) 27% of the time... if you're using a Sub/SD set. The most popular Garchomp dons Choice Scarf and roughly half of them use either Scarf of Band! And yeah, where Scarfchomp is used as a sweeper of sorts, it's a completely different beast from SDChomp and ultimately much more counterable. Only about 30% of the SD sets use Substitute, without which the sweep chance goes down slightly from your approxiated 27% chance. So while a particular Garchomp set might have a 1/4 chance of sweeping me at-will, any given Garchomp I see only has a ~6% chance to do so. (They may still sweep with luck not related to Sand Veil or simply through intelligent play.)
Gee, that seems awfully specialized to me. HP Electric Vaporeon serves absolutely no other purpose but to counter Gyarados, since it certainly doesn't do enough to scare any other Water except maybe offensive Starmie. I never said Gyarados didn't have a counter, though, just very few. The real "uncounterables" are... mostly the Dragons, but other pokémon can fit the mold as well. Lucario has no "counter" by strict definition (though Gliscor is realistically effective enough) and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Jirachi counter, as an example. The Force is strong with its flinchhax and it can always U-Turn out from Magnezone or Fire Punch it.
That was you! <3 I finally decided to not be lazy and try out some new pogeymans over Breloom. The primary traits desired are sleep user, good status absorber, and/or make a good Latias check. Garchomp is nowhere on my radar, although a Latias check that relies on >350 Speed or priority would just happen to serve as an additional Garchomp check too. Anyway, yeah, Garchomp's swept me before! Earlier, one also came in on my 25% Swampert and delivered the killing blow for the win, 2-0. *shrug* I don't win every match, Garchomp is inevitably going to be involved in some of them if for no other reason than it being everywhere. I think Latias is a lot tougher to deal with. And if I really wanted to insulate myself against Garchomp, I wouldn't use a support Jirachi with neither an Ice move nor Reflect. Need Tbolt to check Gyarados and keep Skarm from setting up too easily, though. :P
gonna split into another post, don't bitch at me for double-posting. I figure you guys are pretty tired of these super-long posts, take a break. :[
ARD yeah, you sound pretty overprepared. That should make you weak to other pokémon, which you've mentioned, but you shouldn't have any issue with Garchomp... Hip almost makes it seem like I'm underprepared and it's hardly a top threat to my team. (Latias and Gyarados are the biggies, after that I consider myself prepared enough that I'm not really worried.)
Well you could've gotten both layers down, in which case the window is 5-6 turns, but nevermind that. Teams with Toxic Spikes tend to be heavily offensive, using Toxic Spikes to circumvent specific walls (Hippowdon, Vaporeon, Blissey), or stall-like teams with heavy defenses. The former is liable to have multiple pokémon which can outspeed Garchomp, in which case they can simply smack Garchomp in the face and probably get away with a trade or better. The latter might have multiple Protect users (Blissey and Eeveelutions frequently carry it, Swampert sometimes) to stall for Poison damage, more likely contain Skarmory/Bronzong to just plain wall and use other generally bulkymons (e.g. bulky Restalk Gyarados) that aren't easily OHKOed.
If an early Reflect prevents Garchomp from coming in to begin with, that's good! Garchomp can't sweep from the bench. But Rotom is likely going to Reflect whenever it has free time anyway, since that deters Tyranitar and friends switching in and instantly killing it. Garchomp comes in thinking it's gonna block the Tbolt aimed at its Gyarados teammate, absorb a Scarf Overheat or take the Trick (if it's wearing its own Choice item) but crap, it came into Reflect and is a sitting dick.
I'm just saying that lots of defensive Rotom like to use Will-o-wisp but maybe they should be using Reflect instead due to its reliability. Reflect doesn't miss, Reflect isn't blocked by Substitute, and Reflect can't power up your opponent's Heatran switching in. :[
Well you could've gotten both layers down, in which case the window is 5-6 turns, but nevermind that. Teams with Toxic Spikes tend to be heavily offensive, using Toxic Spikes to circumvent specific walls (Hippowdon, Vaporeon, Blissey), or stall-like teams with heavy defenses. The former is liable to have multiple pokémon which can outspeed Garchomp, in which case they can simply smack Garchomp in the face and probably get away with a trade or better. The latter might have multiple Protect users (Blissey and Eeveelutions frequently carry it, Swampert sometimes) to stall for Poison damage, more likely contain Skarmory/Bronzong to just plain wall and use other generally bulkymons (e.g. bulky Restalk Gyarados) that aren't easily OHKOed.
If an early Reflect prevents Garchomp from coming in to begin with, that's good! Garchomp can't sweep from the bench. But Rotom is likely going to Reflect whenever it has free time anyway, since that deters Tyranitar and friends switching in and instantly killing it. Garchomp comes in thinking it's gonna block the Tbolt aimed at its Gyarados teammate, absorb a Scarf Overheat or take the Trick (if it's wearing its own Choice item) but crap, it came into Reflect and is a sitting dick.
I'm just saying that lots of defensive Rotom like to use Will-o-wisp but maybe they should be using Reflect instead due to its reliability. Reflect doesn't miss, Reflect isn't blocked by Substitute, and Reflect can't power up your opponent's Heatran switching in. :[
What? Tyranitar has not counters? Of all the Pokemon you mentioned only Salamence has virtually no counters but, unlike Garchomp, can be played around via SR, sandstorm and priority moves. Isn't Swampert a TTar counter (and don't say hp grass, as it's ridiculous)? Isn't Machamp a TTar counter? Doesn't Hippowdon wall every TTar (barring some gimmick ice beam sets)? Isn't Jirachi stopped by Rotom, Magnezone, Zapdos? Kingdra is countered by Vaporeon, Empoleon and onther Pokemon depending on the set. And if you say no, then sorry, but you have not enough battle experience. Every Pokemon you mentioned can be somehow countered and, of course, a Pokemon like Jirachi is a lot easier to revenge kill when compared to Grachomp.
Easy use may be irrelevant, but why should everyone be forced to run toxic spikes just to limit Garchomp's sweeping time?
Once again: are you proposing that every team has to run a toxic spiker, a reflect user and maybe a Skarmory\Bronzong just to counter Garchomp? I like offensive play and I'd dislike to completely twist my team just to adapt it to Garchomp. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
Yeah, so assuming that both ice beam and bullet punch don't miss (and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a 64% chance to hit twice in row with two 100% accurate moves when SS is active) you have a dead Swampert and a CB Scizor locked into bullet punch. I'd say that even in this case Garchomp has accomplished its task, as it has eliminated a wall while giving a team mate like Gyarados the chance to set up for free.
Having to run hp electric on a Pokemon is way less over-specializing than raunning 2-3 Pokemon just to counter Garchomp. And if you don't want to run hp electric, then you can just run Rotom, scarf-Latias, Celebi or any random choice scarfer bulky enough to take an unboosted hit from Gyara and KO it back with an electric move (scarf-Jirachi for example). Lucario has several counters, I already listed them in the stage 3-1 thread, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Zapdos just to name a few. And Lucario is way harder to set up when compared to Garchomp, and of course easier to revenge kill (hell, even Scizor can revenge kill Lucario with a resisted bullet punch, after a defence drop).
Oh, and regarding the Abomasnow issue: I repeat that Abomasnow is pretty much a dead weight on every team that doesn't focus on hail\passive damage, is weak to SR and even with a scarf achieves just 360 Spe which means that it's, at best, a mediocre revenge killer. Its use may raise with Manaphy in OU, but once again, having a sure revenge killer for Garchomp (not the sub-salac, obviously) doesn't make it less broken (hey, Jolteon can revenge kill specs-Kyogre!).
On average it puts it into ko range means half the time it doesnt.
Putting it into KO range means a lot of the time the bullet punch wont KO anyway.
Couple that with the chance of missing and Yachechomp's chances become a lot more than whatever figure I gave earlier, like I said they would.
Also ease of use is completely relevant. The characteristics specify little effort. The fact is that pursuiters generally are better pokemon than toxic spikers, much more versatile, and much more common..
Also pert + scizor stops every mence set that I have ever heard of. Skarm + Latias will lose to haban chomp. And in the scizor example you could swap pert for any bulky water and scizor for just about any priority user. With skarm and latias you could swap latias for starmie, but otherwise there isnt much else..
HP electric on a bulky water is basically only for Gyarados, but its pretty easy to do. You cant just chuck HP ice on on Celebi and not worry about Garchomp any more (trust me, I have been using it).
Have a nice day.
Putting it into KO range means a lot of the time the bullet punch wont KO anyway.
Couple that with the chance of missing and Yachechomp's chances become a lot more than whatever figure I gave earlier, like I said they would.
Also ease of use is completely relevant. The characteristics specify little effort. The fact is that pursuiters generally are better pokemon than toxic spikers, much more versatile, and much more common..
27% is actually pretty huge when it is one pokemon, without any support other than sandstream. In fact it's enormous. You have 5 pokes with that chance and you'll win 80% of your games. Though probably more, since even when chomp fails it does some damage..
Also pert + scizor stops every mence set that I have ever heard of. Skarm + Latias will lose to haban chomp. And in the scizor example you could swap pert for any bulky water and scizor for just about any priority user. With skarm and latias you could swap latias for starmie, but otherwise there isnt much else..
HP electric on a bulky water is basically only for Gyarados, but its pretty easy to do. You cant just chuck HP ice on on Celebi and not worry about Garchomp any more (trust me, I have been using it).
Have a nice day.
Even if Salamence eliminates some wall, it's rarely going to sweep a whole team, because of SS, SR, life orb, weaker defences, etcetera. Everyone knows that dealing with Salamence is problematic but, as stated countless times, Salamence can be played around and, at least, if you pack a check\revenge killer for it, then you don't have to be worried about a random miss due to sand veil. Other than that, Salamence doesn't need an ice beam from Swampert to be taken into Scizor's BP's kill range, as a switch into SR and a turn of life orb\sandstorm damage is enough. Oh, and back to my example, DD Salamence needs to use outrage to defeat Swampert (and if it uses draco meteor - which is not going to ohko it anyway - then it's forced out and when it comes in back, it takes another nasty 25% from SR), meaning that even killing Pert it automatically loses to a steel type (or even worse, Scizor\Metagross can set up on it), SD Garchomp can eliminate Pert with earthquake and is free to switch out if need be.
People should realize that they can't compare Garchomp and Salamence as because of their typing, abilities, stats and movesets, they're completely diffrent Pokemon.
Also, please, focus on that ridiculous 64% chance that ice beam+bullet punch hit both, as it's like you're attempting to counter Salamence with Bronzong's hypnosis!
