Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[Hipmonlee]

unfortunately, you are right, as hip has stated the same sentiment about his playing style in as many words, but this doesn't make your opinion any more respectable. i am stunned to see that there are still decent competitive players who think that competitive pokemon should revolve around their own particular playing style, let alone the fact that good competitive players should have the ability to succeed with more than one playing style. when has competitive pokemon ever been about dealing with only what you like and banning what you don't?

Nobody thinks that pokemon should revolve around their own style, but any one pokemon that makes a particular style of battling unusable I think would surely fulfill the support characteristic.

If everyone is playing stall or mixed and not offense, then the pokemon who are effective against these styles of battling suddenly find it so much easier to sweep. Things like Mixedmence or Gyarados.

Once the metagame centralises seeping becomes so much easier to plan, in a diverse metagame it's all but impossible.

However I am not sure in this case it is as bad as deoxys was. Partly because Garchomp is such a bonus for someone playing in a very offensive style it probably makes up for the difficulty of reacting to it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Mr.E]

Haunter, why you still gotta hate on Abomasnow? :( I already noted how it can be a perfectly valuable pokémon and simply building your team with the knowledge you're using Hail. Whether or not you specifically use pokémon that take advantage of it, like Blizzard users and more Ice pokémon, puts you at an advantage over the opponent.

Scarf Cresselia for Garchomp counter, woo !! It's a lot less of a gimmick than it was Pre-Plat too. Now it learns Trick. :P I'm just being facetious here but it does work. What's the calc for Hippowdon? And don't forget that Gliscor also has Sand Veil, so you might miss it!

Even SD Garchomp needs to use Outrage to OHKO Swampert dude, Earthquake only deals ~90% to even 252/0 neutral Swampert. Forcing it to Outrage isn't all that hard either, since SD sets pretty much have to use it against any Ground resist/immune that isn't weak to Fire. (And if it's Sub/SD, it doesn't even have a Fire move!)

Whoever said Latias can be easily countered... no. :[ Just no. And I'm glad some other people are finally realizing Kingdra's sheer power without me having to restate it myself. Vaporeon is somewhat effective against Kingdra not because of Water Absorb, though, but because it very commonly carries Protect and can stall out the weather easier than most other pokémon. It can do absolutely nothing to kill it, though.

If Garchomp does nothing to your team even with SS active, then either you face really bad opponents, or you're an extremely lucky player.

Why is that? We've basically already established that, even with bare minimum "Garchomp checkability," it only has a 1/4 chance of outright sweeping with one particular moveset and with Sand Stream running. Garchomp isn't being super-effective (*rimshot*) 3/4 of the time even with that moveset. It's probably even less dangerous with any other moveset and its effectiveness is dramatically decreased against any team with Skarmory or Bronzong. (Skarmory in particular due to the Spikes it lays, in addition to walling all non-SD/three attack Garchomp sets.) I have no problem imagining plenty of teams not having much trouble with it.

Besides, Sand Stream is Garchomp's major enabler anyway. I'm not going into that one again...

I won't repeat my opinion on revenge killing. My point is that there are no safe switch ins into Garchomp, and that to "safely" beat it you often need to sacrifice a potential counter... it can't "easily be countered" as you stated before.

Indeed, you are correct about revenge killing, though it still helps in comparisons. For example, Salamence is tougher to revenge kill than Garchomp because it can boost its Speed, thereby rendering most Speed-based revenge killers (e.g. Scarf T-Tar, Starmie, Infernape) ineffective and requiring either really fast Scarf users or priority to revenge. Just saying "you can revenge kill it!" is obviously not a useful statement to make.

But, you know, there's no safe switch in to Salamence either. :/ Your primary argument against it is that it can just be "worn down" through residual damage. All that does is more it easier to revenge kill with Scizor/Dragonite/Lucario! (Ice Shard users tend to kill both Salamence and Garchomp, while Salamence is better against Fighting priority.) You still have to sacrifice something to "safely" beat it because there is no universally safe switch-in.

HP electric on a bulky water is basically only for Gyarados, but its pretty easy to do. You cant just chuck HP ice on on Celebi and not worry about Garchomp any more (trust me, I have been using it).

Sure you can, and sticking a random Ice move on a pokémon is generally more useful than a random Electric move too. Maybe not HP Ice on Celebi in particular but you could put Ice Beam on T-Tar, which also hits all the other bulky Ground pokémon that tend to cause it trouble, except Swampert. HP Ice on Jolteon also hits Grass pokémon which resist its STAB. HP Ice on Rotom... okay not so much, though it could also tank a hit from Salamence in a pinch and KO it. Ice Punch on Jirachi and Metagross, blagh blagh blagh.

getting rid of Ttar isn't easy, and if you do use rain dance a good player will just remove the rain dancer then bring Ttar back in again.

Getting rid of T-Tar is easier than most other pokémon. It resists none of the entry hazard moves. It's easily lured, due to its propensity for Pursuit trapping enemies (or at least switchin in and pretending it will). Dugtrio destroys it if T-Tar is that much of a problem.

Rain Dance in particular scares T-Tar (and Hippowdon) because it's heavily based on Water pokémon, which T-Tar will have a hard time even switching in against without eating a super-effective attack. They also have multiple Rain Dance users, since their "ez-street" route to weather is Uber. :/

 

[mtr]

What's the calc for Hippowdon? And don't forget that Gliscor also has Sand Veil, so you might miss it!

Offhand, Hippowdon does ~35% to a YacheChomp with Ice Fang, so ~70% without Yache Berry. Garchomp, after a Swords Dance, does ~65% with Outrage. Ergo, Hippowdon defeats Garchomp straight up, but fails to counter such a particular Garchomp set. And this doesn't factor in Sand Veil.

718 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (60.00% - 70.71%) Jolly Garchomp after a Swords Dance against Max/Max/+ Hippo.

260 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (65 Base Power): 216 - 256 (60.50% - 71.71%) Hippowdon's response with a Ice Fang with no berry, assuming it hits.

260 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (65 Base Power): 108 - 128 (30.25% - 35.85%) After a Yache Berry, assuming it hits.

However, the strategy you are supposed to use for Hippowdon is to use it as an initial switch-in, and lure an Outrage into a Skarm, who avoids the 2HKO and can Roost, or the old PDef Forry, who avoids the 2HKO and possesses Explosion. But a strategy is not a counter because it depends on the opponent's actions, eg: If they see what you're doing and Swords Dance twice, you automatically get swept. If they Earthquake Forry, you get 2HKOed and consequently swept.

 

[LoveDensity]

Whoever said Latias can be easily countered... no. :[ Just no.

Are you judging my experience? I was open to criticism, but not anymore.. Yea thxs.. I am a "whoever." Come on man, I said my team is able to counter Latias easily. I know Latias is no slouch as others may have trouble with it, but the way my team is built, Latias is not a problem. Shiet, Latias is one of the top reasons why Garchomp is even starting to be considered OU. Scizor can't even do shiet to it w/o Garchomp getting down to 60%. Some people just can't be convinced.. especially the one with such dedication.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Putting icebeam on TTar doesnt counter garchomp though, it just allows you to kill it if it tries to set up on you in a very specific circumstance. Unless you put icebeam on all of your pokemon or something..

Have a nice day.

 

[deluge]

Offhand, Hippowdon does ~35% to a YacheChomp with Ice Fang, so ~70% without Yache Berry. Garchomp, after a Swords Dance, does ~65% with Outrage. Ergo, Hippowdon defeats Garchomp straight up, but fails to counter such a particular Garchomp set. And this doesn't factor in Sand Veil.

718 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (60.00% - 70.71%) Jolly Garchomp after a Swords Dance against Max/Max/+ Hippo.

260 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (65 Base Power): 216 - 256 (60.50% - 71.71%) Hippowdon's response with a Ice Fang with no berry, assuming it hits.

260 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (65 Base Power): 108 - 128 (30.25% - 35.85%) After a Yache Berry, assuming it hits.

However, the strategy you are supposed to use for Hippowdon is to use it as an initial switch-in, and lure an Outrage into a Skarm, who avoids the 2HKO and can Roost, or the old PDef Forry, who avoids the 2HKO and possesses Explosion. But a strategy is not a counter because it depends on the opponent's actions, eg: If they see what you're doing and Swords Dance twice, you automatically get swept. If they Earthquake Forry, you get 2HKOed and consequently swept.

So if your opponent plays well and out-predicts you the Pokemon they use to do that is Uber?
I know this is not what you're saying literally, but there's a strong implication that a Pokemon must be beatable in an 'if A then switch to B' manner.

Some Pokemon have hard counters but many of the best attackers have potential ways around all its 'counters'.
I always hated Infernape because it should die horribly to Swampert but often carries Grass Knot.
Tentacruel usually works well but it can certainly walk into Earthquake if your opponent is creative.

In the DP era many Pokemon are manicas that know moves they "shouldn't" and that makes countering them like walking on eggshells.

 

[Mr.E]

Are you judging my experience? ...

No no, I just meant in general. There's no surefire way to defeat Latias. Its only reliable wall, Blissey, can be duped by Trick and also loses to CM/Refresh if it doesn't have CM itself. Tyranitar can be 2HKOed by Specs Surf, Specs Meteor with SR I believe, and is just incredibly easy to wear down in the first place. Scizor gets OHKOed by the common HP Fire specifically used to beat it and gets stuffed by Reflect if you don't have a second strong physical threat to U-Turn to.

Looking back to check, it was a response to dhoni123's "I know latias can easily be countered..." response to Haunter, who claimed to use SDef Metagross specifically to deal with Latias.

 

[pi face]

ok so latias has Trick/Surf/HP Fire/CM/Refresh/Draco Meteor @Specs and Leftovers... (and discounting the fact that spdef tyranitar can easily kill her no matter what).

Garchomp just needs Eq, Fire Fang and a dragon move to do its job. He is in a whole different level than latias is, for me at least.

 

[mtr]

So if your opponent plays well and out-predicts you the Pokemon they use to do that is Uber?
I know this is not what you're saying literally, but there's a strong implication that a Pokemon must be beatable in an 'if A then switch to B' manner.

Some Pokemon have hard counters but many of the best attackers have potential ways around all its 'counters'.
I always hated Infernape because it should die horribly to Swampert but often carries Grass Knot.
Tentacruel usually works well but it can certainly walk into Earthquake if your opponent is creative.

In the DP era many Pokemon are manicas that know moves they "shouldn't" and that makes countering them like walking on eggshells.

Your first argument is a strawman. I was stating that the Hippowdon-->Skarmory or Hippowdon-->Forretress strategy only works if the Garchomp user is beaten in a prediction game. I say nothing about it being Uber or not, and honestly I can find many better reasons for it being Uber. In fact, if a stall team, which usually has almost all threats hard-countered as well as can possibly be done, has to resort to playing around Garchomp (although I recommend using scarfers on defensive teams, but scarfers are NOT hard counters almost by definition), then its an argument supporting Garchomp for being Uber.

Now, one may say that Salamence cannot be hard-countered by stall barring the gimmicky ScarfCress either. But we have already all gone over the reasons why Salamence rarely sweeps teams alone: chiefly, residual damage. Over 40% of its health is gone as it fires its first attack, and it pays 16.25% for each additional shot against a team that can recover off the damage. Also, Ice Fang on Hippo OHKOes after Stealth Rock. None of this applies to Garchomp. If a stall player mispredicts against Salamence (eg: Mixmence or DDMence?), he has lost a Pokemon. If a stall player DOESN'T try to predict against SDChomp, he has lost Hippowdon anyways. And if he tries to predict and mispredicts, he loses the game. And if Sand Veil activates, Garchomp is still at full health and with its berry. Choice Garchomps are manageable, but the Choice set for Garchomp is not the set that makes it Uber. When I play stall against an SD YacheChomp, I almost always lose Hippowdon or have to Explode Forretress, which leaves me wide open to many other physical threats. Of course, I will usually have a ScarfChomp of my own as a last-ditch effort against such threats, whatever, I'm digressing.

On the note of Infernape, Latias with Surf or Draco Meteor, which is quite common, beats all Infernapes bar Physical sets who predict the U-turn on the switch-in, which is rare, and a risky play. Also, Infernape quickly falls to residual damage and is really in the same boat as Salamence in that regard: it can kill dudes pretty well, but will rarely be sweeping.

 

[PK Gaming]

Chomp is being squished in the middle of two opposing sides...

Alas if only Gchomp had pressure or something similar to that. Sandveil is a really annoying ability no questions asked.

And people, is Yache Berry REALLY his best set? I think that Scarf and BandChomp do better...

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Chomp is being squished in the middle of two opposing sides...

Alas if only Gchomp had pressure or something similar to that. Sandveil is a really annoying ability no questions asked.

And people, is Yache Berry REALLY his best set? I think that Scarf and BandChomp do better...

YacheChomp seems almost non-existant to me, I've mostly seen Scarf and Haban which work much better than Yache does.

 

[Atticus]

Chomp is being squished in the middle of two opposing sides...

Alas if only Gchomp had pressure or something similar to that. Sandveil is a really annoying ability no questions asked.

And people, is Yache Berry REALLY his best set? I think that Scarf and BandChomp do better...

Yache is not really suited well for the suspect metagame with latias and scarfchomps flying around everywhere, if chomp ever got sent back to OU I think yache would become more common but as of now haban/scarf/band are the best sets imo

 

[haunter]

Haunter, why you still gotta hate on Abomasnow? :( I already noted how it can be a perfectly valuable pokémon and simply building your team with the knowledge you're using Hail. Whether or not you specifically use pokémon that take advantage of it, like Blizzard users and more Ice pokémon, puts you at an advantage over the opponent.

Lol, I don't hate it. I't just that:

1) revenge killing is a mediocre argument at best;
2) I still think that to fit Abomasnow in your team you need to either try to abuse the hail or accept the fact that you're automatically self-damaging all of your remaining 5 Pokemon every turn.

Scarf Cresselia for Garchomp counter, woo !! It's a lot less of a gimmick than it was Pre-Plat too. Now it learns Trick. :P I'm just being facetious here but it does work. What's the calc for Hippowdon? And don't forget that Gliscor also has Sand Veil, so you might miss it!

At least you are intelligent enough to admit it. Scarf-Cresselia is like: "Hey Scizor\TTar come in and rape me!".

Even SD Garchomp needs to use Outrage to OHKO Swampert dude, Earthquake only deals ~90% to even 252/0 neutral Swampert. Forcing it to Outrage isn't all that hard either, since SD sets pretty much have to use it against any Ground resist/immune that isn't weak to Fire. (And if it's Sub/SD, it doesn't even have a Fire move!)

Garchomp can 2hko Swampert with a +2 EQ, no need to resort to outrage, Pert can't ohko Garchomp back. Enough said.

Whoever said Latias can be easily countered... no. :[ Just no. And I'm glad some other people are finally realizing Kingdra's sheer power without me having to restate it myself. Vaporeon is somewhat effective against Kingdra not because of Water Absorb, though, but because it very commonly carries Protect and can stall out the weather easier than most other pokémon. It can do absolutely nothing to kill it, though.

Maybe countering Latias is not as easy for everyone as it's for me, but of course countering her is perfectly possible even without needing to resort to revenge killing. The same, sadly, can't be said for SD yache Garchomp.

Why is that? We've basically already established that, even with bare minimum "Garchomp checkability," it only has a 1/4 chance of outright sweeping with one particular moveset and with Sand Stream running. Garchomp isn't being super-effective (*rimshot*) 3/4 of the time even with that moveset. It's probably even less dangerous with any other moveset and its effectiveness is dramatically decreased against any team with Skarmory or Bronzong. (Skarmory in particular due to the Spikes it lays, in addition to walling all non-SD/three attack Garchomp sets.) I have no problem imagining plenty of teams not having much trouble with it.

1\4 looks like a pretty high chance to me. And the problem is that "that particular set", despite being well known and fairly predictable, is still uncounterable.

Indeed, you are correct about revenge killing, though it still helps in comparisons. For example, Salamence is tougher to revenge kill than Garchomp because it can boost its Speed, thereby rendering most Speed-based revenge killers (e.g. Scarf T-Tar, Starmie, Infernape) ineffective and requiring either really fast Scarf users or priority to revenge. Just saying "you can revenge kill it!" is obviously not a useful statement to make.

Wrong, Salamence has lower overall defences and it wishes it had swords dance to boost its Atk. Salamence takes around 65% from Scizor's BP, and after a switch into SR and a turn of life orb damage (which, back to Swampert's example, is needed to kill Swampert) goes automatically into BP's kill range. Garchomp is not even always 2hko'd by BP. And Chomp can run the sub-salac set if it wants to boost its speed. And, we all know that Sub-SD-salac Chomp is a deadly sweeper with minimum support (Magnezone or something like a bait-Tar to lure in Skarmory\Zong and kill them).

But, you know, there's no safe switch in to Salamence either. :/ Your primary argument against it is that it can just be "worn down" through residual damage. All that does is more it easier to revenge kill with Scizor/Dragonite/Lucario! (Ice Shard users tend to kill both Salamence and Garchomp, while Salamence is better against Fighting priority.) You still have to sacrifice something to "safely" beat it because there is no universally safe switch-in.

Yeah, I've stated it countless times. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a Pokemon to Salamence (I'm talking about mix-Mence, mainly) but it's rare that Salamence sweeps a whole team, the same can't be said for Garchomp, as you have to sacrifice something that can take a boosted hit and hit back with an ice move to activate yache, then bring in a revenge killer with ice priority or a faster dragon (Latias). Also, if you guys think that Mence is that broken, talk about it to an admin, and suggest a suspect test for it.

Sure you can, and sticking a random Ice move on a pokémon is generally more useful than a random Electric move too. Maybe not HP Ice on Celebi in particular but you could put Ice Beam on T-Tar, which also hits all the other bulky Ground pokémon that tend to cause it trouble, except Swampert. HP Ice on Jolteon also hits Grass pokémon which resist its STAB. HP Ice on Rotom... okay not so much, though it could also tank a hit from Salamence in a pinch and KO it. Ice Punch on Jirachi and Metagross, blagh blagh blagh.

The problem is that Celebi, Rotom, Vaporeon can all switch with relative ease into Gyarados, while none of the Pokemon you mentioned can actually switch into Garchomp.

Getting rid of T-Tar is easier than most other pokémon. It resists none of the entry hazard moves. It's easily lured, due to its propensity for Pursuit trapping enemies (or at least switchin in and pretending it will). Dugtrio destroys it if T-Tar is that much of a problem.

Yeah, I can see your point here. But please, don't tell me that to play around sand veil one has to use rain dance as it's a ridiculous argument.

 

[Mr.E]

YacheChomp is better than HabanChomp, even considering the metagame. The latter really only works against Garchomp and Latias and Scarf is overall just as good at defeating them. (It depends on the set. For example, Specs Latias OHKOs through Haban Berry anyway. Scarf Latias outspeeds and OHKOs ScarfChomp still.) Yache protects you from Ice Shard, Starmie, and all the bulkymons carrying Ice Beam still.

Haunter, there's nothing wrong with "accept[ing] the fact that you're automatically self-damaging all of your remaining 5 Pokemon every turn." when using Abomasnow. Remember, the opponent is also taking that damage. Where your advantage lies is that you expect to be taking that damage; the opponent doesn't because Hail isn't common. Your team should be built more optimally to fight under Hail than your opponent's team. Now please, embrace the sexiness that is Abomasnow.

Garchomp can 2hko Swampert with a +2 EQ, no need to resort to outrage, Pert can't ohko Garchomp back. Enough said.

Either you Outrage to OHKO, which locks you in and leaves you highly susceptible to a revenge kill now, or you don't Outrage and Swampert hurts you very badly with its Ice attack. It won't kill, unless it's Avalanche and you don't have Yache Berry, but it does put you in revenge kill range of a lot more pokémon than when you were at 100% health. You're just susceptible to different things now.

1\4 looks like a pretty high chance to me. And the problem is that "that particular set", despite being well known and fairly predictable, is still uncounterable.

Sub/SD lacks a Fire attack, meaning Skarmory straight-up counters it and Bronzong does to a lesser extent. (It can't Whirlwind through a Sub, if necessary, and lacks recovery.) Sub-only or SD-only sets with three attacks are beaten by many bulky pokémon, though the latter is the set most likely to trade. Choice sets... umm, yeah. No Garchomp set is completely uncounterable. Garchomp also gets stuffed pretty bad by Toxic Spikes, regardless of its moveset.

 

[Deucalion2]

What I don't understand is why everybody is going on about how YacheChomp is the most powerful set, and yet is only used 25% of the time? ScarfChomp seems to be the much more useful and powerful set of the two, and yet nobody seems to have any complaints about it.

 

[gamer22]

scarf chomp is definately better since it can revenge kill

 

[deluge]

Yeah, SubSD YacheChomp misses the third attack for coverage against levitating Steels.
Jolly Scarf is nice as it will still outrun all the other Dragons even if they have +1 Speed.

BTW, Abomasnow is underrated!
Yeah, it has several weaknesses but how many Pokemon resist Ground, Electric, Water, Grass and take neutral damage from Ice attacks?
I discovered quite incidentally (PBR, where you run into random Ubers) that this thing can massacre Kyogre by nullifying Drizzle and attacking with STAB Grass.

 

[Heartgold]

Scarfchomp is awesome for surprising but many battlers have said its not something they struggle against, I guess this is because you EQ however the opponent switches in something that avoids it and with Outrage you are stuck, susceptible at being revenged killed and don't forget Garchomp is yache 'less. I'll also add it lacks the power that a +2 SDchomp has so it's easier to handle whilst its stuck on one moves.

 

[gamer22]

thats why outrage is used best late game for cleaning up

 

[Heartgold]

thats why outrage is used best late game for cleaning up

That works once all its counters are handled/weakened, then again this goes for a few OU pokemon, lucario, empoleon, gyarados.

 

[Jumpman16]

I'm pretty sure that you know, both from my previous votes in the suspect test and from my posts in this thread, that I'll be voting observing the 3 ubers characteristics outlined in the thread "Portrait of an Uber".

to be fair, all "i'm pretty sure" of is that you said that you'd be voting observing the 3 ubers characteristics outlined in the thread "Portrait of an Uber". you've also said that you like and dislike things about competitive pokemon in this thread when you could just as easily have said you "think it's too much" or that it speaks to how garchomp is filling the OC or DC, and that is at the very least a curious thing to say and way to make your argument

I can successfully play balanced teams, it's just that I wouldn't like to be forced to run semi-stall (read: Skarmory\defensive-Rotom\Tentacruel) just because it's the only theoretical way to defeat a single Pokemon. And obviously mine was just an exaggeration in response to Mr.E's post. I'm a pretty versatile player, don't take my posts word by word.

am i not supposed to have taken your voting submissions word by word either? it seems convenient that you're able to state whatever you want in a pm to me when it matters but that you're allowed to make arguments of preference on the same exact subject matter that contradict those statements without me being able to at least raise an eyebrow

listen, don't take this personally—i'm sure you follow smogon's philosophy closely, more sure of that than of a good 90% of the people whose submissions i've ever read. it just worries me to see arguments of preference in this thread when there isnt even a way for aeolus and i in stage 3 to see people's reasoning as we were in stage 2, and worries me all the more when they come from someone of your caliber

 

[Coronis]

Yache is not really suited well for the suspect metagame with latias and scarfchomps flying around everywhere, if chomp ever got sent back to OU I think yache would become more common but as of now haban/scarf/band are the best sets imo

um? if Chomp ever got sent back to OU, i don't see how it would be different from the current metagame. I really doubt that Garchomp would be voted OU and Manaphy Uber.

For me, i really see Garchomp as an effective revenge killer. I really don't see the point of setting it up, when it has no access to a priority move, and retains the same speed. I doubt we would see Lucario with so much use
w/o Xspeed. I would not want to use a sweeper with any speed lower than 115, unless its an agility/DD user. I see the real use for SD Chomp being breaking stall, but then Skarm can still WW and there is TSpikes.

 

[Jumpman16]

Nobody thinks that pokemon should revolve around their own style, but any one pokemon that makes a particular style of battling unusable I think would surely fulfill the support characteristic.

not necessarily, the pokemon has to make it substantially easier for others to sweep by itself. more importantly, you cannot even think this way in the first place because for all intents and purposes, latias and/or manaphy may have been improperly tiered this whole time, and "hyper offense" (just as an example, i neither endorse any belief that either pokemon stop hyper offense nor do i care if they do) as we know it from standard play should never even have been a "playing style" in the first place

this is why everyone is asked to mind only the three characteristics and not to apply additional ones like "wall breaker" or "reduction of playing style" that our community has not agreed upon. the entire test is patently about rethinking what we're used to, and being accepting of change if it is in line with the characteristics

If everyone is playing stall or mixed and not offense, then the pokemon who are effective against these styles of battling suddenly find it so much easier to sweep. Things like Mixedmence or Gyarados.

on paper, +1 DP/TB/GK/CM Timid Latias@LO has about as easy a time sweeping as mixmence since both take bullet punches and extremespeed equally well, are able to ohko quite a few things, but fall prey to scarfers. does this make latias uber under the OC, or the culprit uber under the SC? we definitely can't just blame garchomp for any such phenomenon

 

[phalanx]

latias is poping up everwhere, and i think is acctually taking a stranglehold of the special sweeper role, there are pleny of high speed high damage pokes, that latias just outclasses, jolteon cant kill it, infernape is not fast enough, starmie is frail but is a good option but needs scarf to counteract the scarf latias. as an observation latias has very little to outclass it overall, only luck so far is scizor and ttar killing it 1 on 1 (and DD gyara with wakan if its unscarfed, if it is forget it)

 

[mtr]

Either you Outrage to OHKO, which locks you in and leaves you highly susceptible to a revenge kill now, or you don't Outrage and Swampert hurts you very badly with its Ice attack. It won't kill, unless it's Avalanche and you don't have Yache Berry, but it does put you in revenge kill range of a lot more pokémon than when you were at 100% health. You're just susceptible to different things now.

The alternative is that you flash around Dragon Claw once and switch out, thus making you look scarfed. The next time in, you use Swords Dance and OHKO, and either continue killing if Scizor enters (Bullet Punch fails to 2HKO) or cut and run if Latias comes in, assuming that Tyranitar/Scizor/Metagross hasn't dealt with it. It is surprisingly easy to do this. Again, Salamence cannot accomplish this due to vulnerability to residual damage. Really, the other Dragon is a great Pokemon and a potent threat, but it has tactical limitations that do not fetter Garchomp. People can give you lists upon lists of the sheer power of a Life Orb Garchomp's attacks and the crucial OHKOes and 2HKOes that it generates, but what is the purpose? When Garchomp is played with a modicum of finesse, it can accomplish so much more without a Life Orb. The Scarfer is very common, and Garchomp definitely has the biggest Fear Aura in the game, making it even easier.