Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[Nachos]

I have to disagree with you on this. Garchomp may not have many resistances, but it does have solid defense stats, so it can be switched in on a lot of things, especially when you take SR resistance and SS immunity into things.

And although Sand Veil doesn't always work, it still makes it that much tougher considering how one missed move can lose you the entire game against YacheChomp.

And lets not forget the destructive power that CB Chomp possesses. It takes out virtually everything with a brilliant dual STAB combination of Dragon and Ground moves that Salamence or Gyarados can't use as effectively.

Switched in on things? The only things it's coming in safely on in OU is Thunderbolt/Wave, Fire Blast (possible burn) and Stone Edge which is only really used on Tyranitar. It's not even coming in on Heatran, as that can carry Dragon Pulse. Garchomp, unlike Salamence and Gyarados is affected by Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and although not common on offensive teams, is on most stall teams, and Garchomp won't be using Sand Veil to avoid that.

I've used alot of CB Garchomp over the past few weeks/months. Both Adamant and Jolly versions, and I find while it to be good mid-game, it just isn't "uber". Choiced Ground is one of the worst things to lock yourself into, straight away making one of Garchomp's STABs not as effective as it could be. I don't think anyone would agree that giving Latias/Salamence/Gyarados a free switch-in is a good thing.. It also doesn't help that everything is about speed and it's not Garchomp whose causing it. Adamant versions are outsped by Jolly Jirachi and Timid Manaphy. Jolly just doesn't get the job done. The sacrifice in power for a little bit of speed in a metagame where Scizor and Latias are everywhere and still outspeed (or priority kill) just doesn't cut it.

I don't really have the heart to make a full on statement right now.. And it seems like whatever points I make, it fails to get through to people that are set about being Garchomp OU.

I think Garchomp will be the most split opinion Pokemon for the eternity of DPP. So whatever point either side makes, there will never be 100% happiness.

But I have made three different teams on three different accounts. All of them has Garchomp, 2 of them Yache Berries with SD/Dragon Claw/EQ/Fire Fang, 1 Scarfed, none of them have sandstream. All of the teams also have a way to stop Latias easily, allowing Garchomp to do as much damage as possible. 2 of them are on the top 30 with around a 1680-1720/50-55 deviation and the other team I am still testing that hasn't lost yet out of 7 battles in about a 3 hour period (yea suspect is pretty lonely) against some decent and top players in suspect ladder. In almost all of my matches, Garchomp proved to be threatening mid-game and extremely threatening late-game.

Fair does, that's a nice record, although I doubt every one of your matches was all down to who is the better Garchomp player. Latias isn't the only way to stop Garchomp, seeing as there's very few top used pokemon that let Garchomp have a free switch-in, and that Outrage on Scarf versions is pretty much only able to be used after their steel or two (maybe even 3) are gone.

Yea, I haven't been swept by Garchomp yet, but I had to make almost perfect switches by prediction to get around it. They haven't swept me, but I definitely have swept them by my team's overall presence or strategy. It always seem to take out at least 1 Pokemon per match and forces many switches allowing me to SD with ease or damage a crucial part of their team with Dragon Claw, Earthquake, or Fire Fang. If I was to put a Pokemon on my team that is threatening like Gyarados, Salamence, or Lucario, it just won't work. Garchomp doesn't have the stealth rock weakness, is much faster, is overall bulkier, and doesn't have a "textbook" counter once I got rid of their Latias.

I agree that there's nothing to truly replace Garchomp, although that could be because no other dragon in OU learns Swords Dance (free Rayquaza?). Garchomp can't single-handedly take out 1 Pokemon, and if it does, it'll be thanks to your team of Garchomp + 5 Pokemon, not Garchomp by itself.

This is just my experience. Point me wrong all you want, but many players I have spoken to including the top players have experienced the "uber" presence of Garchomp.

Alot of top players voted Latias uber in Stage 3.1, a metagame where it was outclassed by Latios and hardly ever used. I'm not doubting top players' skills however, as quite a few have kicked my ass, but there sure is a lot of people who are pretty good who wouldn't mind Garchomp in OU aswell.

Choice set for Garchomp is not the set that makes it Uber.

Good point. I don't think choice versions of Garchomp should be uber as they never have even considered it, even throughout 2007 where YacheChomp was a myth and ScarfChomp was the most popular set. Yet, roughly 35%~ of Garchomp used Swords Dance in Stage 3.1 in July 2009, the move that supposedly made Garchomp uber.

 

[haunter]

Haunter, there's nothing wrong with "accept[ing] the fact that you're automatically self-damaging all of your remaining 5 Pokemon every turn." when using Abomasnow. Remember, the opponent is also taking that damage. Where your advantage lies is that you expect to be taking that damage; the opponent doesn't because Hail isn't common. Your team should be built more optimally to fight under Hail than your opponent's team. Now please, embrace the sexiness that is Abomasnow.

Why should I be forced to automatically damage all of my Pokemon or, if you prefer, to run Abomasnow, just because I need a revenge killer for Garchomp ? note: not a counter as this argument would apply to several other Pokemon, and if Aboma was a good Chomp counter, then it would be a valid reason to carry it in some cases.

Either you Outrage to OHKO, which locks you in and leaves you highly susceptible to a revenge kill now, or you don't Outrage and Swampert hurts you very badly with its Ice attack. It won't kill, unless it's Avalanche and you don't have Yache Berry, but it does put you in revenge kill range of a lot more pokémon than when you were at 100% health. You're just susceptible to different things now.

I'd never run outrage on SD Chomp, and I repeat that EQ is more than enough to deal with Swampert. Also, standard mix-Pert ice beam against min HP\ min SpD yache Garchomp:

206 Atk vs 206 Def & 357 HP (95 Base Power): 136 - 162 (38.10% - 45.38%)

you know what that means: Chomp kills Swampert and Scizor won't be able to revenge kill Chomp in most cases;

120 base power avalanche against min HP \ min Def Garchomp:

256 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (120 Base Power): 196 - 232 (54.90% - 64.99%)

yeah, that means that you still lose Swampert and Chomp is left with around 40% of its health, meaning that it can still come back later (taking only 6% from SR) and dish out some serious damage to your team;

60 base power avalanche against min HP \ min Def Garchomp:

256 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (60 Base Power): 100 - 118 (28.01% - 33.05%)

cool, if your opponent sets up a second SD when you use avalanche, then you not only do just around 30% to Chomp, but then you'll have to face a +4 Atk Garchomp, good luck!!!

Sub/SD lacks a Fire attack, meaning Skarmory straight-up counters it and Bronzong does to a lesser extent. (It can't Whirlwind through a Sub, if necessary, and lacks recovery.) Sub-only or SD-only sets with three attacks are beaten by many bulky pokémon, though the latter is the set most likely to trade.

That's why I said that you have to support it with Magnezone\something else to lure in and kill Skarmory\Zong

Choice sets... umm, yeah. No Garchomp set is completely uncounterable. Garchomp also gets stuffed pretty bad by Toxic Spikes, regardless of its moveset.

Choice sets don't scare me that much. They usually lack the sheer power to sweep (scarf) or the versatility granted by SD (band).

to be fair, all "i'm pretty sure" of is that you said that you'd be voting observing the 3 ubers characteristics outlined in the thread "Portrait of an Uber". you've also said that you like and dislike things about competitive pokemon in this thread when you could just as easily have said you "think it's too much" or that it speaks to how garchomp is filling the OC or DC, and that is at the very least a curious thing to say and way to make your argument

Well, I have my own preferences, but if with my words I've looked like a biased, unobjective voter, then my apologies. The fact that I may dislike a given Pokemon doesn't mean that I'll vote according to my dislike, and as long as that Pokemon doesn't fullfill any of the uber characteristics I'll vote it OU, regardless of my personal preference. In fact, I'm trying to provide objective arguments for people to form their opinion on the Pokemon that seems to be the most controversial in this test. As stated before, I'd be glad to read valid arguments to bring Garchomp back to OU.

listen, don't take this personally—i'm sure you follow smogon's philosophy closely, more sure of that than of a good 90% of the people whose submissions i've ever read. it just worries me to see arguments of preference in this thread when there isnt even a way for aeolus and i in stage 3 to see people's reasoning as we were in stage 2, and worries me all the more when they come from someone of your caliber

Thank you, that's all I really care, honestly.

 

[Heartgold]

Haunter: Most Skarmory's are holding shed shell so trapping it won't work and subchomps usually go down to the steel bird. Yachechomp is what bugs many people, most of the time it gives chomp to set up +2 attack while still in good health and hit the opponent hard,So either switching to garchomps predicted attacks or safe option is revenge killing to stop it,however with the help of spikes/t-spikes chomp doesn't last that long.

So a lot of Garchomp talk, how are people finding Manaphy and Latias and their thoughts so far?

 

[Hipmonlee]

on paper, +1 DP/TB/GK/CM Timid Latias@LO has about as easy a time sweeping as mixmence since both take bullet punches and extremespeed equally well, are able to ohko quite a few things, but fall prey to scarfers. does this make latias uber under the OC, or the culprit uber under the SC? we definitely can't just blame garchomp for any such phenomenon

If Garchomp is the one allowing multiple pokemon to sweep easier then I would expect you would ban garchomp as opposed to all of the other pokemon.

If Garchomp is allowing only one specific pokemon to sweep then I guess it would be a judgement call.

But if you find the game is being overcentralised in order to cope with a pokemon, you shouldnt have too much problem exploiting it. Then by using Garchomp and the exploit on your team you can cover your bases pretty easily.

At the moment I've been using Magnezone, to either eliminate Skarm or to set up a sub against it. With TTar to take out blissey (and support Garchomp) Magnezone is doing the kind of damage that I dont even think Magnezone ought to be capable of..

It's not flawless of course, but it has been pretty damn easy so far..

And granted, while Magnezone could be replaced with a lot of things, TTar is essential to this team, so one could argue that it is TTar that is broken and not Garchomp. But TTar isnt a suspect..

Have a nice day.

 

[deluge]

Haunter: Most Skarmory's are holding shed shell so trapping it won't work and subchomps usually go down to the steel bird. Yachechomp is what bugs many people, most of the time it gives chomp to set up +2 attack while still in good health and hit the opponent hard,So either switching to garchomps predicted attacks or safe option is revenge killing to stop it,however with the help of spikes/t-spikes chomp doesn't last that long.

Exactly.
One layer of Toxic Spikes + 1 layer of Spikes does as much damage to Garchomp per swtich-in as Stealth Rock does to Salamence.
Tyranitar, who many people consider a popular Garchomp partner, won't be liking these entry hazards either.
In addition, the 12.5% poison damage continues for the turns the Pokemon is in.

I like when Garchomp is around because people can't be as carefree about setting up Stealth Rock and forgetting it.
Sure, preparing hazards for Garchomp and company might let through Moltres, Gyarados or Charizard which is good IMO.
Stealth rock is too common in OU as it is because the payoff for one turn is too high.

I think there are certain things that balance the game which go beyond X Pokemon countering Y Pokemon.
It is quite possible that DP's monstrous Pseudo-Legendary is Stealth Rock resistant to act as a counter-pull against that hazard.
Of course, if almost all of the game's threats are Stealth Rock weak everyone is going to lay it and get free 25% damage going forward.

Handling metagame threats is why people might run HP Electric on Vaporeon or lay Stealth Rock.
Refusal to adapt is not a good argument for banning a Pokemon, IMHO.

 

[phalanx]

manaphy is mixed, its in the wrong testing phase here, if people weren't running sand everywhere to abuse garchomp then manaphy might get a look in, it really needs testing on its own.
as for latias, unlike garchomp salamence and ttar, burn doesnt half its damage output, which to me is pushing it towards the uber category (if people want salamence testing in suspect then this shows a lot) doesnt help that it has a fairly wide movepool to boot, and bulk, its not a major problem but its annoying that trying to make it less of a threat means keeping a scarf on a gengar or scizor alive, as it outspeeds everything, tbh i would rather get it to ubers to open up the metagame again, as it seems focused on latias killing.
as for skarm, i run garchomp with fire blast instead of fire fang, helps with skarm, also used my electivire team in OU and got a meditate up and managed to do 82% to a skarm with t-punch that way (it had 82% hp so who knows), its pretty much viable with all the electric moves flying around, and after meditate it can OHKO even yache chomp with ice punch.

 

[deluge]

TTar and Scizor, two otherwise very useful Pokemon, do quite well against Latias which is why I think most people are comfortable with her.
She is a beast though, no doubt about it.

 

[lordkira]

Phalanx: I do agree with manaphy having its own testing ground to a certain degree. However, I cannot help but think of few other factors that are very uneasing in my mind. The biggest of them all is that...what if Garchomp was to be nominated to be OU? People are going ot use Garchomp regardless of Manaphy having its own testing ground as it will be OU. If we begin to make these small changes for the testing environment, I can't stop but to think that it won't be as effective as it can be since there will be so many things that weren't considered during the meta. I guess I worded my view quite confusingly, however, I hope you get what I am saying at least. It is not that I disagree with you but...this is a matter that I am very confused about as to what kind of consequences can be brought.

 

[phalanx]

true but if garchomp was OU then as it stands manaphy would not work and would join it, which is fine.
If however garchomp didn't go OU, and we get a false reading from this test regarding manaphys capability, especially in regards to rain, which already has some powerful pokes. either way garchomp OU or uber we would have how manaphy would be in that metagame in a seperate test because, in theory, people would still use garchomp in suspect regardless if it was OU.
the only annoyance of using t-tar to kill latias, is that it benifits garchomp, if you arn't running chomp then its like shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[blasphemy1]

Haunter: Most Skarmory's are holding shed shell so trapping it won't work and subchomps usually go down to the steel bird. Yachechomp is what bugs many people, most of the time it gives chomp to set up +2 attack while still in good health and hit the opponent hard,So either switching to garchomps predicted attacks or safe option is revenge killing to stop it,however with the help of spikes/t-spikes chomp doesn't last that long.

So a lot of Garchomp talk, how are people finding Manaphy and Latias and their thoughts so far?

It is typically extremely easy to lure in Skarmory and either get rid of Shed Shell or kill it. TrickBand Bronzong and Knock Off Tangrowth/Gliscor are easy ways to lure Skarmory in, who typically enjoys setting up Spikes on these pokemon. A mixed Tyranitar(with Expert Belt) can lure Skarmory in and OHKO with Fire Blast. SD Lucario can often force Skarmory to switch in. More often than not, I've found that Skarmory either have Leftovers or they don't have their Shed Shell once Garchomp is ready to sweep(late game).

 

[lordkira]

true but if garchomp was OU then as it stands manaphy would not work and would join it, which is fine.
If however garchomp didn't go OU, and we get a false reading from this test regarding manaphys capability, especially in regards to rain, which already has some powerful pokes. either way garchomp OU or uber we would have how manaphy would be in that metagame in a seperate test because, in theory, people would still use garchomp in suspect regardless if it was OU.
the only annoyance of using t-tar to kill latias, is that it benifits garchomp, if you arn't running chomp then its like shooting yourself in the foot.

One way is that we keep in mind that if we were ever to conclude in our minds that manaphy in the meta with garchomp isn't such a big threat and garchomp was to ever go down to OU, then it would not be a problem to have manaphy in OU. However, if garchomp was to stay in UBER then we should test manaphy. So it really depends on Garchomp (at least) and his future in the meta imo.

edit: nvm didn't read your post fully. Yes, that's exactly what I want. :D

 

[Orcelot005]

true but if garchomp was OU then as it stands manaphy would not work and would join it, which is fine.
If however garchomp didn't go OU, and we get a false reading from this test regarding manaphys capability, especially in regards to rain, which already has some powerful pokes. either way garchomp OU or uber we would have how manaphy would be in that metagame in a seperate test because, in theory, people would still use garchomp in suspect regardless if it was OU.
the only annoyance of using t-tar to kill latias, is that it benifits garchomp, if you arn't running chomp then its like shooting yourself in the foot.

I don't think Menaphy should have a seperate test just because Sand Stream is everywhere on Suspect because Tyranitar is already an extremly popular pokemon on the OU ladder so sand is already running quite often.

 

[Heartgold]

It is typically extremely easy to lure in Skarmory and either get rid of Shed Shell or kill it. TrickBand Bronzong and Knock Off Tangrowth/Gliscor are easy ways to lure Skarmory in, who typically enjoys setting up Spikes on these pokemon. A mixed Tyranitar(with Expert Belt) can lure Skarmory in and OHKO with Fire Blast. SD Lucario can often force Skarmory to switch in. More often than not, I've found that Skarmory either have Leftovers or they don't have their Shed Shell once Garchomp is ready to sweep(late game).

Yes you could, this will include to any pokemon capable of sweeping, luring away their counters and getting something like DDdos to setup finish it off, heck even agilitygross is a good end game sweeper, DDtar, you name it ;]

 

[haunter]

Exactly.
One layer of Toxic Spikes + 1 layer of Spikes does as much damage to Garchomp per swtich-in as Stealth Rock does to Salamence.
Tyranitar, who many people consider a popular Garchomp partner, won't be liking these entry hazards either.
In addition, the 12.5% poison damage continues for the turns the Pokemon is in.

Handling metagame threats is why people might run HP Electric on Vaporeon or lay Stealth Rock.
Refusal to adapt is not a good argument for banning a Pokemon, IMHO.

That's the problem: countering Garchomp requires at least a spiker and a toxic spiker just to set up entry hazards. Think of it: how many viable spikers we have in OU? Skarmory, Forretress, and maybe Roserade. How many toxic spikers? I can only think of Forretress, Tentacruel and Roserade itself. A plethora of Pokemon learn stealth rock instead, and it's arguably a more useful support move to have on a team as it damages every Pokemon in the game, especially flying types, and just requires one turn of set up opposed to the, at least, two turns required to set up one layer of spikes and one of toxic spikes. So yeah, we've found a way to counter Garchomp: having Skarmory, Roserade and possibly Swampert on every team. Then if your team is swept by taunt Gyarados or SD Lucario, who cares... after all, you've managed to beat the mighty Grachomp.

Once again, one thing is running a single move to handle a Pokemon (hp electric in the case of Gyarados) and another thing is running two or more specialized counters just to handle a single threat. Note: I'm not implying that Garchomp is uber because of the massive support required to "counter" it, but the fact that it can sweep teams that lack the combination of 2 of the Pokemon listed above, makes me think that it can sweep a large portion of teams (read: those that lack the aforementioned Pokemon) in the metagame with little effort (which is the offensive uber characteristic).

It is typically extremely easy to lure in Skarmory and either get rid of Shed Shell or kill it. TrickBand Bronzong and Knock Off Tangrowth/Gliscor are easy ways to lure Skarmory in, who typically enjoys setting up Spikes on these pokemon. A mixed Tyranitar(with Expert Belt) can lure Skarmory in and OHKO with Fire Blast. SD Lucario can often force Skarmory to switch in. More often than not, I've found that Skarmory either have Leftovers or they don't have their Shed Shell once Garchomp is ready to sweep(late game).

My point, exactly. Even if Skarmory carries shed shell, luring it in and eliminating it isn't that hard. See the bait-TTar I wrote for the analysis. Mixed Jirachi bluffing a scarf is a perfect example too. Mixed Metagross is another fine example. Even DD Kingdra can bluff a physical set and 2hko Skarm with hydro pump.

 

[Serv]

I'm a bit surprised people are still going on with the whole, "Manaphy isn't seeing much use because Sand is basically everywhere in the current Suspect metagame". I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't Manaphy generally fair well against both Hippowdon and Tyranitar? From my own experience, a good portion of the Manaphys I've faced run bulky sets so I'm a bit skeptical on the whole idea that Garchomp is stumping Manaphy's use, because if Manaphy is running a bulky set, then it should threaten Garchomp more than the other way around. So why exactly are people veering away from using Manaphy?

Admittedly I've seen a lot more Manaphy lately than before, so I guess that's a good sign. The primary reason (imo) why Manaphy is seeing relatively little use as compared to the other suspects is because of its middling speed. Base 100 is a bit lackluster especially in the current metagame. From my own experience, 3 attack LO (or even Leftovers) Manaphy has a tough time setting up and sweeping because of this very fact. A few days back, me and Erodent were discussing about a new team we wanted built, that would revolve specifically around Manaphy. We agreed on one thing pretty quickly (unless my memory fails me x_x), bulky Manaphy was the way to go. Anyways I've finished the team (Erodent has been busy lately), and I have to say we made the right call. Bulky really seems to be the best way to utilize Manaphy currently i.e. SubTG set (my personal favorite) or the CM set posted by Tay a while back, which is a beast once it gets going. Give it a spin, maybe you'll like it.

Now about Latias, why exactly am I hearing comparisons between her and Salamence? That's just silly. I'm not gonna deny it, Latias has good stat distribution (maybe great, that's arguable) more importantly she has the movepool to back it up nicely. But seriously, going so far as to say something like the current metagame is focused on killing Latias, well that's a bit of a stretch (no matter how you put it). The biggest impact, I think, Latias has had in the OU environment is that she basically killed all-special HO teams (iirc this is the reason why Stat never brought his Greek RMT to OU). If I'm missing something here, feel free to let me know.

Thanks take care ^^.

 

[phalanx]

i try and trickscarf scarmory when i can due to whirlwind
anyway i run fire blast on garchomp
51.5% - 61.1% 2 hit KO right from the off, skarmory isn't going to let you get SD up and fire fang which is still a 2 hit ko with the +2 boost (it does more then fire blast on this occasion) but skarm isn't going to let it set that up, so i stick to that

 

[Reaver12]

I don't think Menaphy should have a seperate test just because Sand Stream is everywhere on Suspect because Tyranitar is already an extremly popular pokemon on the OU ladder so sand is already running quite often.

You have to remember that one of the major reasons that Tyranitar is so popular is that he is probably the best counter to Latias. It's all very mixed up IMO. If Latias or Garchomp are voted OU, so should Manaphy. If both are somehow voted Uber then Manaphy will likely need retesting, as without having Latias to worry about and Chomp to set up, Sand will probably only remain on Stall teams.

 

[Raikaria]

It's highly unlikly that Chomp and Latias will be voted Uber, while Manaphy is voted OU, in the first place, considering Manpahy got more Uber votes than Latias in the first vote.

Besides that, Latias would need a re-test anyway, as it was only voted Uber once (Unless 66%+), as would Manpahy (not 2 in a row, again, unless 66%+)

Seeing the current trend of things, it seems as if Garchomp is the only one which is garnering enough support to become Uber, and even then, it's gonna be close. This will actually be decent, because of several reasons.

1: If Chomp is voted Uber, then people can't really complain, it got 2 tests, and the rules changed for it. Yet it still made Uber.

2: If Chomp is not voted Uber, (By less than 66% OU), but Manpahy and Latias are by any margin, then Chomp gets an isolated test, without any other suspects. This should show how much Chomp would impact the 'standard' OU, especially as Manaphy, not being a suspect this time, no-one would use with T-Tar and Chomp everywhere. In my opinion, the Isolated test could be the final one, as it's not as if the situation would change between another test, because there would be no new suspects (As suspect nomination happens after Stage 3 is over)

 

[Ciele]

Switched in on things? The only things it's coming in safely on in OU is Thunderbolt/Wave, Fire Blast (possible burn) and Stone Edge which is only really used on Tyranitar. It's not even coming in on Heatran, as that can carry Dragon Pulse. Garchomp, unlike Salamence and Gyarados is affected by Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and although not common on offensive teams, is on most stall teams, and Garchomp won't be using Sand Veil to avoid that.

I've used alot of CB Garchomp over the past few weeks/months. Both Adamant and Jolly versions, and I find while it to be good mid-game, it just isn't "uber". Choiced Ground is one of the worst things to lock yourself into, straight away making one of Garchomp's STABs not as effective as it could be. I don't think anyone would agree that giving Latias/Salamence/Gyarados a free switch-in is a good thing.. It also doesn't help that everything is about speed and it's not Garchomp whose causing it. Adamant versions are outsped by Jolly Jirachi and Timid Manaphy. Jolly just doesn't get the job done. The sacrifice in power for a little bit of speed in a metagame where Scizor and Latias are everywhere and still outspeed (or priority kill) just doesn't cut it.



I think Garchomp will be the most split opinion Pokemon for the eternity of DPP. So whatever point either side makes, there will never be 100% happiness.

Infernape is hurt by Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and is one of the best Pokemon in OU for beating stall, because there's something that's called 'Rapid Spin'. Now I'm not an idiot, and I know that spinning is easier said than done, but if you think that not being immune to T/Spikes stops it from being Uber, then you are very wrong. Darkrai's weak to T/Spikes as well, but is clearly Uber, and so is Chomp.

And CB Chomp in itself isn't Uber, but it's still very viable as everybody expects either Yache or Scarf versions, and can really wreck a team not prepared for it.

Chomp is undoubtedly controversial, and I can see the logic behind most of your opinions, but I really feel that the metagame would be far better without it.

 

[deluge]

Yes and Ho-OH is quad weak to Stealth Rock and Uber whereas Flygon resists every entry hazard and is not Uber.
I don't think anyone is saying that Spikes and T Spikes vulnerability is the final criteria for Uber Status.
BUT people do love to harp on Garchomp's Stealth Rock resistance whenever he's compared to Salamence despite the fact that he's hurt by two of the three entry hazards that Salamence is ordinarily immune to.
The fact is that if the other entry hazards were deployed more often than Sleath Rock, Salamence would be at a significant advantage.
Not surprisingly, Garchomp will find it easier to switch in and out in a metagame where the most common hazard does 6.25% damage to him.
Also, to the extent that Rapid Spin is a viable solution to Garchomp's Spikes weakness, it is a viable solution to Salamence's Stealth Rock weakness.
In which case the whole argument is a red herring and we should probably drop it.

 

[Coronis]

It's highly unlikly that Chomp and Latias will be voted Uber, while Manaphy is voted OU, in the first place, considering Manpahy got more Uber votes than Latias in the first vote.

Besides that, Latias would need a re-test anyway, as it was only voted Uber once (Unless 66%+), as would Manpahy (not 2 in a row, again, unless 66%+)

Seeing the current trend of things, it seems as if Garchomp is the only one which is garnering enough support to become Uber, and even then, it's gonna be close. This will actually be decent, because of several reasons.

1: If Chomp is voted Uber, then people can't really complain, it got 2 tests, and the rules changed for it. Yet it still made Uber.

2: If Chomp is not voted Uber, (By less than 66% OU), but Manpahy and Latias are by any margin, then Chomp gets an isolated test, without any other
suspects. This should show how much Chomp would impact the 'standard' OU, especially as Manaphy, not being a suspect this time, no-one would use with T-Tar and Chomp everywhere. In my opinion, the Isolated test could be the final one, as it's not as if the situation would change between another test, because there would be no new suspects (As suspect nomination happens after Stage 3 is over)

lol, manaphy rapes tyranitar and garchomp, people won't stop using it just because it is a suspect...

Manaphy is an excellent pokemon, and if you invest enough bulk into it (252hp) an with Leftovers, Jolly Chomp can barely 2HKO with outrage, and depending on your sp.atk evs, you can either OHKO or always 2HKO. and if chomp runs adamant, use your own...

 

[matthewmilad]

Chomp Counters and Revenge Killers:

Celebi
Cresselia
Latias
Hippowdon
Gyarados

Skarmory
Infernape
Azelf
Mamoswine
Weavile
Scizor
Manaphy
Jolteon
Zapdos
Gengar
Bronzong

Burn, Spikes/Roar

I'll admit getting around the potential moveset possibilities like Scarf or Stone Edge and Fire Fang and Fire Blast and etc. can be difficult, but I don't think Garchomp is Uber. To be fair, Lucario is quite similar in this respect of versatility.

It would be interesting to ban a certain move on him like Stone Edge or Fire Fang.

It would also be interesting if Ubers were legal in OU as long as you don't give them any EVs. Only IVs and Nature would dictate your stats for them at that point. I've had this idea for a while as it makes the meta game much more diverse with Kyogre and Groudon and etc.'s effects up for use. Arceus, Mew, etc. could stay banned if need be.

 

[lordkira]

none of the ones youve listed are garchomp counters
a counter should be a pokemon that just stops all variants of the other, and by far garchomp doesn't have one, he has pokies that can revenge kill him but not counter him.

 

[Heartgold]

Infernape is hurt by Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and is one of the best Pokemon in OU for beating stall, because there's something that's called 'Rapid Spin'. Now I'm not an idiot, and I know that spinning is easier said than done, but if you think that not being immune to T/Spikes stops it from being Uber, then you are very wrong. Darkrai's weak to T/Spikes as well, but is clearly Uber, and so is Chomp.

And CB Chomp in itself isn't Uber, but it's still very viable as everybody expects either Yache or Scarf versions, and can really wreck a team not prepared for it.

Chomp is undoubtedly controversial, and I can see the logic behind most of your opinions, but I really feel that the metagame would be far better without it.

lol Darkrai, How could you compare something like this who has access to darkvoid, nastyplot, weavile like speed and bad-dreams to back it up. Isn't that more threatening than garchomp...?

 

[phalanx]

none of those can come in, TAKE THE HIT then kill it before garchomp kills you... so no.
and banning moves on a sinlge poke is dumb, have to the move on every poke or not at all.
lets break this down.
the rules of a counter as as follows.
the poke has to switch in
the poke has to kill the poke before it kills you.

celebi? how is that going to kill garchomp, it cant come in on <insert fire move here> then take ANOTHER hit, then kill yache chomp with HP ice
cresselia? whats that killing garchomp with?
Latias perhaps has a narrow chance, but coming in on a garchomp outrage will hurt it
hippowdon? so once hippowdon has raised garchomps evasivness, then what is it going to do? SD yache chomp will destroy it
Gyarados, garchomp can switch into ice fang with little worry if it has yache then OHKO with stone edge, even with the rock resist berry it will still be outsped and finished off

skamory? again, it wont work, fire blast can 2HKO skarmory so skarmory cant switch in on the fire balst then attack before being hit again.
infernape, cant switch in on EQ.
Azelf, cant really switch in in on dragon STABs
Mamoswine, ground weak and slower
Scizor, garchomp has fire fang and fire blast, scizor cant switch in on either and it definatly cant kill garchomp before it kills scizor
manaphy? will need to take 3 hits to even use ice beam, its not taking 3 hits to do it twice on yachechomp
jolteon, cant switch in EQ and yache chomp will just kill it
zapdos? hates stone edge
Gengar, not going to take dragon STAB
Bronzong, again fire moves OR ground moves depending on build will nail it