Nah, the public knows enough about it. Just use the suspect a lot, win with some regularity, and you'll gain SEXP which allows you to vote.
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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Nah, the public knows enough about it. Just use the suspect a lot, win with some regularity, and you'll gain SEXP which allows you to vote.
I know that Chomp isn't even close to Darkrai, I just used Darkrai as an example of a Pokemon not immune to T/spikes who is still an excellent sweeper. And although obviously Darkrai's better than Chomp, that doesn't stop Chomp from being an Uber sweeper as well.
First of all, mence itself (also considering the fact that A LOT of people go max speed on mence: dd and mix variant of 16atk/240spA/252spe) is a huge part of the game at the moment. Meaning, Garchomp outruns that many naturally. Also, jirachi, zapdos, celebi, and flygon all have max speeding variants (yes they are even on the smogon analysis lists). While some are not used as much as the other sets, they are still great options nonetheless but with the fact that garchomp having 102 speed and thus faster. It is true there aren't too many 100 based pokies in the OU meta atm but it is also true that those few are very widely used (ex: mence ex given previously).
I agree with the Mence bit however...
The best sets for Zapdos, Jirachi and Celebi don't run max speed.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/zapdos
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jirachi
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi
If Garchomp goes back to OU, Flygon is DEFINETELY going down to UU so outspeeding him is a moot point.
The best sets for Zapdos, Jirachi and Celebi don't run max speed.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/zapdos
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jirachi
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi
If Garchomp goes back to OU, Flygon is DEFINETELY going down to UU so outspeeding him is a moot point.
Well, I wouldn't say they are best sets but the most fitting/used set at the moment. Offensive Zapdos for example is incredibly useful. That's why I said, "While some are not used as much as the other sets, they are still great options nonetheless" in my previous post. Just to add to that, again, my point is that no matter what sets those 100 based pokies go with, they will never be naturally faster than Garchomp and in my eyes that is crucial. Also, Flygon should not be forgotten. It is usually adamant but jolly is also very common.
If you are a knowledgeable competent player you will not find it difficult to earn the right to vote if you want to, and if you aren't a knowledgeable competent player, you shouldn't be voting anyway
Almost any one of those would be possible revenge killers for Garchomp if it did decide to run adamant. Chomp can still KO most of them with jolly which it needs to run anyway because it needs to have at least a fighting chance at a speed tie when there is other garchomp around.
People are therorymoning too much here. I don't care about how salamence is possibly uber, we are talking about Garchomp and to a lesser extent Manaphy and Latias. Garchomp sweeps for and against me more than not with little effort unless I get lucky with a revenge killer. Uber status done.
you know they still revenge if it runs adamant...
The thing is, you can't compare Garchomp to Salamence and say that Garchomp has a huge Speed advantage when the only pokémon it really matters against is Salamence itself. (Flygon too but nobody cares about it.) Okay, so Garchomp outspeeding Salamence means it can... beat Salamence. Well gee, that's quite the incredible insight. What else does it beat? Somehow I don't think Salamence is really concerned about the 7.8% of Tentacruel and 0% of Celebi running max Speed, or those 50 other OU pokémon that either both or neither Salamence/Garchomp outspeed. Wait a minute, 1/4 of Zapdos do run max Speed. Brilliant!
It's still important to raise such questions. For example, I have to wonder why Latios was overwhelmingly voted Uber but Latias overwhelming voted OU. They're nearly identical and, if anything, Latias is the better pokémon overall. (Latios' higher Attack generally goes to waste because it's still too low to do much with. Latias hits nearly as hard on the Special side, and arguably just as good in that role due to increased bulk, but can also fulfill a whole crapton of defensive/support roles Latios can't touch.) Shouldn't their vote counts be a lot closer? It makes no sense to me.
More generally, if Salamence is comparably powerful to Garchomp and Salamence is widely regarded as OU material, doesn't that tell us maybe Garchomp is also OU material? They fare well against a similar number of threats, though not necessarily the same ones. They're both nigh-uncounterable and virtually guaranteed at least one kill per match. Where is the line drawn that makes Garchomp Uber but Salamence OU? If it's simply the SR resistance and Sandstorm immunity, well then how about we bring down a little ol' bird named Ho-oh for a suspect test?
This has always been my point in this suspect test, Garchomp and Salamence are not comparable. Different typing, stat distribution, learnset, ability.
To be honest I've always had your same thought on Latios, though you're quite wrong about the SpA difference between Latios and Latias as, sadly, it does matter. As an example, Scizor does extremely well against specs-Latias, but it takes a ridiculous 60.06% - 70.85% from a specs Latios draco meteor, which is a clear 2hko even after the SpA drop. Latias only manages 57% on average (with a full power DM).
As stated above, they're not comparable. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of people would like to have a suspect test for Salamence too, so I wouldn't assume that it's widely regarded as OU material.
SR resistance and sandstorm immunity is a huge factor in favour of Garchomp. SR and sandstorm for Salamence mean no more than 2 switch ins per match (life orb only makes things worse for Mence). Taking only 6% from SR and taking advantage of sandstorm, which is very common considering that TTar is on over 17% of the teams and Hippo on over 4% according to the most recent server stats (and I'm sure that their usage would rise a lot with Chomp back in OU), means instead that Chomp has little troubles switching in, eliminating a Pokemon, then switching out to come back later with still a good amount of HP.
My point, exactly.
I believe that what you've stumbled upon here is a case of attitude making more of a difference than fact. Granted, Latios has a better SpA stat than Latias. However, as you have stated, Latias and Latios are very similar. My opinion is people voted Latios Uber because they are used to it being Uber and that was their mindset throughout the vote. The same thing has happened to Garchomp. He's been hyped up to be some sort of godly monster, when in reality, he's not.
Also, I'd just like to say that the reason I support Garchomp in OU is because I never had any problems with it in battle. In years of competitive battling I have never said "Damn, Garchomp is just too good to beat."
As I say, a base 130 offensive stat, 100+ speed and reasonable bulk = Uber by some mindset.
It makes for a interesting thought experiment to look at things that have been Uber and things that are not to see what separates them.
In my mind, Garchomp has far more in common with other good OU Pokemon than it has with the current crop of Ubers.
I'm not sure if that's an endorsement for Latios being Uber or for being OU, Hip. And yeah, Haunter, Latios obviously has higher SpA. It deals about 12.5% more damage than Latias with special attacks. It's almost guaranteed to 2HKO standard Scizor at full HP with SR, compared to Latias only doing it slightly less than half the time. Yeah, it's less vulnerable to SpD T-Tar switching in and other stuff. The power difference is real.
It also eats more from that same Scizor's Bullet Punch when it comes in to revenge kill. Latias is guaranteed to survive SubPetaya Empoleon's +1 Ice Beam or Abomasnow's (max/neutral) Blizzard without SR and survives on average with SR. Latios... dies on average without and is guaranteed death with. Machamp OHKOs Latios 75% of the time with Payback on the switch, Latias survives 85% of the time and may still survive even with SR. Adamant CB Mamoswine can OHKO Latios and is nearly guaranteed to do so with SR support, Latias survives 75% of the time even with SR. Lucario's Crunch, ScarfChomp DClaw, blagh blagh blagh you get the picture. Pokémon isn't only hitting the other pokémon harder. As such an adamant supporter of Garchomp's Uber status, constantly citing its resiliency due to its SR resistance and Sandstorm immunity, you should know that better than anyone.
And then Latias can also do a lot of other cool support things, like Wish pass and dual screen or Roar more effectively. What's Latios got, shitty Memento? Latias also makes a better Calm Mind user, as bulk is more desirable in this instance so you have a greater chance of getting in more Calm Minds and thus hit harder too. Its versatility and better stat spread make it a better pokémon than its one-trick-pony brother but the past suspect voting, for some reason, says the exact opposite. That's ass backwards.
It also eats more from that same Scizor's Bullet Punch when it comes in to revenge kill. Latias is guaranteed to survive SubPetaya Empoleon's +1 Ice Beam or Abomasnow's (max/neutral) Blizzard without SR and survives on average with SR. Latios... dies on average without and is guaranteed death with. Machamp OHKOs Latios 75% of the time with Payback on the switch, Latias survives 85% of the time and may still survive even with SR. Adamant CB Mamoswine can OHKO Latios and is nearly guaranteed to do so with SR support, Latias survives 75% of the time even with SR. Lucario's Crunch, ScarfChomp DClaw, blagh blagh blagh you get the picture. Pokémon isn't only hitting the other pokémon harder. As such an adamant supporter of Garchomp's Uber status, constantly citing its resiliency due to its SR resistance and Sandstorm immunity, you should know that better than anyone.
And then Latias can also do a lot of other cool support things, like Wish pass and dual screen or Roar more effectively. What's Latios got, shitty Memento? Latias also makes a better Calm Mind user, as bulk is more desirable in this instance so you have a greater chance of getting in more Calm Minds and thus hit harder too. Its versatility and better stat spread make it a better pokémon than its one-trick-pony brother but the past suspect voting, for some reason, says the exact opposite. That's ass backwards.
Once again, dear Mr.E, we seem to completely agree on Latios' tiering. I voted it OU for a reason, and I'd vote it OU again if given the chance. I was just pointing out that, sadly, the 40 more SpA points make a huge difference in terms of offensive power.
Assuming that you were still replying to my post, I've never claimed that. If I support Garchomp's banning is because of several factors, that I think I've explained well enough in my posts in this thread; of course not only because it can "hit the other Pokemon harder".
You hit the nail on the head. Garchomp not only has a massive 130 Atk \ 102 Spe, but also an impressive (for a sweeper) 108 HP \ 95 Def, which is way better than Latias' 80 HP \ 90 Def. Other than that, Garchomp is neutral to dark type attacks, and hence pursuit, meaning that while specs-Lati@s (I'm referring to Latios in particular, as it was deemed uber especially because people found the specs set "broken") can usually be trapped and revenge killed with relative ease after they fire off a powerful draco meteor, Garchomp is free to switch out an come back later in the match. SR resistance and sandstorm immunity is just a bonus.
Yeah, Latias has a better support movepool, but that doesn't really matter as I highly doubt that someone in their right mind would consider Latias uber under the support characteristic. Once again, I agree with you on the fact that Latios' potential was hyped up too much during the last testing period, but we can't do anything to change that vote, can we?
Latios was overhyped, wow extra 40 sp attack at the cost of dying after its killed something, yes Garchomp is able to freely switch unlike Latios who is trapped.
So what's holding Garchomp back, okay so not holding back but like an exploit, after playing through the suspect for a while, A lot of people run Outrage, and I'm beginning to think if Garchomps so called monstrous attack is its weakness to not give him the freedom to switch out on threats and inviting its own death, It's a whole lot easier to take garchomp down on Outrage, So therefore Dragonclaw is better. Hey if it's not outrage'ing the down side is you're relying on spikes/right predictions according to its attacks and revenge killers if it doesn't switch, only upside is it making switches to D-claw with a scarf steel type, i dunno heatran Jarachi, it can EQ =[ I'm referring to yachesets! Scarf, subsets are not a problem. So after watching alot of suspect battles, spikes/T-spikes is getting popular, this is probably the biggest counter to Garchomp,This will help with garchomp who likes to switch out on threats, just like SR is to salamence. Although I know there aren't as many spikers as SR users and does take a few more turns to setup but it does offer the advantage of damaging other pokemon other than garchomp as well.
So what's holding Garchomp back, okay so not holding back but like an exploit, after playing through the suspect for a while, A lot of people run Outrage, and I'm beginning to think if Garchomps so called monstrous attack is its weakness to not give him the freedom to switch out on threats and inviting its own death, It's a whole lot easier to take garchomp down on Outrage, So therefore Dragonclaw is better. Hey if it's not outrage'ing the down side is you're relying on spikes/right predictions according to its attacks and revenge killers if it doesn't switch, only upside is it making switches to D-claw with a scarf steel type, i dunno heatran Jarachi, it can EQ =[ I'm referring to yachesets! Scarf, subsets are not a problem. So after watching alot of suspect battles, spikes/T-spikes is getting popular, this is probably the biggest counter to Garchomp,This will help with garchomp who likes to switch out on threats, just like SR is to salamence. Although I know there aren't as many spikers as SR users and does take a few more turns to setup but it does offer the advantage of damaging other pokemon other than garchomp as well.
Like Haunter, I agree with you completely, but you must understand the point he he specifically touched upon at the end of his post. You may or may not accept that the 12.5% difference in power is enough to have a pokemon voted overwhelmingly uber over its otherwise offensively identical twin. However, as most people don't think Latias reaches the Support Characteristic for uber pokemon, most will not think that it's "12.5%" better (for the sake of argument, it's parallel) defenses than Latios make it reach the Defensive Characteristic. That's the real difference here—if Latias's better defenses don't actually meet the DC but also don't help it reach the OC (or the SC) to a significant degree, then people will not be inclined to think she is uber.
but latios weaker defences make it harder to use, Wakan DD gyardos cant kill scarf latias with ice fang as latias survives with a few % hp, latios would die to the same move.
only way i see of killing scarf latias is, scarfing something myself thats faster and can do heavy damage with super effective (woo starmie or gengar...) or kill it with occa scizor bug bite, therfore i feel the scarf latias is broken, i shouldnt HAVE to run a few pokes just to counter something.
only way i see of killing scarf latias is, scarfing something myself thats faster and can do heavy damage with super effective (woo starmie or gengar...) or kill it with occa scizor bug bite, therfore i feel the scarf latias is broken, i shouldnt HAVE to run a few pokes just to counter something.
that's a pretty bad example, how is wacan gyarados staying in on scarf latias and getting a chance to ohko her anyway? either gyarados is at +1 attack and kills latias either way when wacan activates regardless of whether it knows latias has a scarf, or gyara is unboosted and you would be out of your mind to come or stay in on a latias that is locked into TB.
scarf latias that has any inclination at all of using thunderbolt will be killed by pursuit tyra in a heartbeat, and scizor doesnt even need the threat of pursuit/BP to pester it since it's not even 2hkoed by thunderbolt (where latios can 2HKO around 20% of the time with TB after SR)
and most importantly—is that what is actually happening to you on the suspect ladder? "only way i see" reeks of theorymon, is scarf latias actually being troublesome for you or are you just making paper arguments?
scarf latias that has any inclination at all of using thunderbolt will be killed by pursuit tyra in a heartbeat, and scizor doesnt even need the threat of pursuit/BP to pester it since it's not even 2hkoed by thunderbolt (where latios can 2HKO around 20% of the time with TB after SR)
and most importantly—is that what is actually happening to you on the suspect ladder? "only way i see" reeks of theorymon, is scarf latias actually being troublesome for you or are you just making paper arguments?
Jump, I understand perfectly what's going on. I don't buy into pigeonholing pokémon into those doofy "Uber Characteristics" and letting that say it all but, that said, extra bulk is just as welcome on offensive pokémon as it is defensive ones. Maybe Latias misses out on a crucial kill here and there over its brother but it's just as likely to find itself in a circumstance where it avoids a revenge kill or reduces the risk of a questionable switch-in because it's not as easy to kill. As an extreme example, think Shedinja with Deoxys-A's attack stats; it still might not be uber since it instantly dies to damaging weather, status, and entry hazards despite the fact it could completely destroy everything if it did come in safely (and your opponent has no T-Tar / Hippo / Aboma).
To be fair, the pool of potential revenge killers for Outrage-locked Garchomp is a lot bigger than that of Pursuit users ready to trap-kill a -2 Lati@s. Garchomp and its physical Dragon brethren are prone to relying on Outrage to grab cheap kills due to the power boost over DClaw and lack of viable switch-ins against it compared to off-type attacks. So then I bring in my faster Dragon, Scizor, Starmie, whatever to kill it off while it's unable to escape.
To be fair, the pool of potential revenge killers for Outrage-locked Garchomp is a lot bigger than that of Pursuit users ready to trap-kill a -2 Lati@s. Garchomp and its physical Dragon brethren are prone to relying on Outrage to grab cheap kills due to the power boost over DClaw and lack of viable switch-ins against it compared to off-type attacks. So then I bring in my faster Dragon, Scizor, Starmie, whatever to kill it off while it's unable to escape.
Yes, you said it, "outrage-locked Garchomp". I've stated multiple times that SD Chomp doesn't need to resort to outrage to kill its potential switch ins (I'm not even using the term "counters") as after a SD, dragon claw\EQ\fire fang will take care of every Pokemon in the game, barring Cresselia. I've provided several damage calculations in my previous posts to back up what I'm saying.
Of all the Pokemon you mentioned only Latias can be considered good revenge killer. Scizor is not even guaranteed to 2hko it with BP and Starmie loses almost always to yache Garchomp as it's unable to ohko it (doing 59.78% on average with a max SpA ice beam). But once again, I think that outrage is a terrible choice on SD Chomp. Scarf\band variants can abuse outrage, but I've already stated that they rarely represent a real problem, and they're not impossible to deal with as long as your team packs some bulky steel type and a bulky levitator like Gyarados or Gliscor.
So it's okay to consider revenge killing Lati@s with a select few pokémon after firing off Draco Meteor but we can't assume the same of Garchomp locking itself into Outrage? Unfortunately, it's impossible to decipher statistically whether or not SDChomp regularly uses DClaw or Outrage -- we can't differentiate from past usage stats which attack specifically SDChomp uses more often -- but we do know skipping out on Outrage loses a lot of power.
Calculations can't take into account circumstance but if you want 'em... +2 DClaw can't OHKO standard defensive Rotom-A, you might get burnt (shitty accuracy), allow it to Reflect or finish Garchomp off if it's very low health. Or maybe you switch Garchomp (still healthy) into Rotom's Shadow Ball. Knowing you can't 2HKO with SD/DClaw or 2xDClaw, I just keep Shadow Balling and trade/win. (It's just short of a 3HKO with no SpA EVs, one special drop or minor SpA investment + SR...) If Garchomp does have Outrage, then it does kill Rotom but is locked in for an easy revenge kill. +1 DClaw can hardly OHKO standard bulky attacking Gyarados. (~20% with SR) As stated before, Swampert can survive a +2 Earthquake with max HP and even minimal EVs in Defense. With SR, Gliscor is OHKOed half the time with +2 Outrage and easily killed with any other residual damage, DClaw doesn't come close. There's a number of calculations where Outrage's very large power increase over Dragon Claw has obvious advantages, let alone once you leave theorymon for actual battling.
And does it matter that none of these pokémon can flat-out OHKO back, sans the rare Avalanche Swampert or Counter Swampert/Gliscor? Not really. Garchomp gets worn down like any other pokémon. Switch it into Jirachi? Oops, it U-Turned and you just lost 25% as they switch straight to a counter. (Or you lose 40% to Iron Head but force your switch.) Heatran? Garchomp lost 40% to SR + a very strong resisted Fire Blast. Heaven forbid anyone lay Spikes and Garchomp gets a taste of what Salamence goes through more regularly. Healthy Suicune Roars it in? So on and so forth. Suddenly, Garchomp's Yache Berry isn't always protecting it from Starmie's Ice Beam or Mamoswine's Ice Shard. Maybe Garchomp got in healthy after all and got to use it to "beat" said Starmie. Great! But now it's low enough for a multitude of pokémon to revenge; even though Starmie "lost" to Yache Berry, it opened the door for more than just Latias or CB Scizor to finish the job. If Garchomp locks itself into Outrage to get that kill, not so much against Starmie but perhaps other pokémon, then it becomes even easier as it can't even switch away from the revenge kill. FYI, CB Scizor is guaranteed to 2HKO Garchomp after SR.
Calculations can't take into account circumstance but if you want 'em... +2 DClaw can't OHKO standard defensive Rotom-A, you might get burnt (shitty accuracy), allow it to Reflect or finish Garchomp off if it's very low health. Or maybe you switch Garchomp (still healthy) into Rotom's Shadow Ball. Knowing you can't 2HKO with SD/DClaw or 2xDClaw, I just keep Shadow Balling and trade/win. (It's just short of a 3HKO with no SpA EVs, one special drop or minor SpA investment + SR...) If Garchomp does have Outrage, then it does kill Rotom but is locked in for an easy revenge kill. +1 DClaw can hardly OHKO standard bulky attacking Gyarados. (~20% with SR) As stated before, Swampert can survive a +2 Earthquake with max HP and even minimal EVs in Defense. With SR, Gliscor is OHKOed half the time with +2 Outrage and easily killed with any other residual damage, DClaw doesn't come close. There's a number of calculations where Outrage's very large power increase over Dragon Claw has obvious advantages, let alone once you leave theorymon for actual battling.
And does it matter that none of these pokémon can flat-out OHKO back, sans the rare Avalanche Swampert or Counter Swampert/Gliscor? Not really. Garchomp gets worn down like any other pokémon. Switch it into Jirachi? Oops, it U-Turned and you just lost 25% as they switch straight to a counter. (Or you lose 40% to Iron Head but force your switch.) Heatran? Garchomp lost 40% to SR + a very strong resisted Fire Blast. Heaven forbid anyone lay Spikes and Garchomp gets a taste of what Salamence goes through more regularly. Healthy Suicune Roars it in? So on and so forth. Suddenly, Garchomp's Yache Berry isn't always protecting it from Starmie's Ice Beam or Mamoswine's Ice Shard. Maybe Garchomp got in healthy after all and got to use it to "beat" said Starmie. Great! But now it's low enough for a multitude of pokémon to revenge; even though Starmie "lost" to Yache Berry, it opened the door for more than just Latias or CB Scizor to finish the job. If Garchomp locks itself into Outrage to get that kill, not so much against Starmie but perhaps other pokémon, then it becomes even easier as it can't even switch away from the revenge kill. FYI, CB Scizor is guaranteed to 2HKO Garchomp after SR.