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Mandatory Vaccinations

There are actually two different issues in this thread. Who should decide whether children get vaccinated is a different question from whether an adult should be forced to get vaccinated. I'll follow up on the second of these first, since it's all I discussed above.

Even for deadly diseases, adults should be able to refuse vaccination. Generally, they won't, since it's not rational to, but if they choose to refuse the vaccine, and then contract the disease, the only people they put at risk are (1) themselves; (2) other people who have not been vaccinated; and (3) people who cannot get vaccinated due to a health problem.

(1) is only your concern.

As for (2), if you choose not to get vaccinated, or have not yet been vaccinated, obviously it's your responsibly to appreciate all of the risks of your unvaccinated state.

(3) is the most difficult case, but these people have the option of taking precautions to avoid contracting the disease, such as minimising contact with others. It's unreasonable for everybody else to surrender control of their own bodies in order to marginally improve the (3) group's quality of life, and the improvement is indeed marginal, since most people will be getting vaccinated against a deadly disease, mandatory or not.

[Alternatively, if you don't like my approach to (3), there is another one that could also work. One could view transmitting a contagious disease to others as a form of assault, and punish the spread of it on those grounds. With this approach, you only restrict the freedom of those people who actually cause harm to others, rather than restricting everybody's freedom. There's some movement toward this approach with sexually transmitted diseases in some jurisdictions. Practically speaking it's more difficult for a disease like the flu, since it's not easy to detect who gave it to you and so on, but I would still consider this approach on the table. I only mention this approach because if you people believe it should be "legally wrong" not to get vaccinated, this is the proper way to enforce it within the framework of a free society.]

Since I said "most" people will vaccinate against a deadly disease regardless of whether it's mandatory, let's consider who won't, among people who can:

(1) People with some sort of philosophical objection to vaccines. Whatever we think of these people, existing "mandatory vaccination" schemes in the US already grant them an exception to vaccination.

(2) People who are dubious of the efficacy of the vaccination or possible side effects. This is almost always unwarranted and the actual science almost always seems to suggest vaccines are safe. There is at least one way you can work around this without restricting freedom:

Try to convince these people otherwise! If you believe everybody should be vaccinated, rather than petitioning the government to restrict freedom, start a campaign which appeals to private persons. Run ads, give speeches, etc. outlining the advantages of being vaccinated for individuals and for society. Highlight the actual science of the safety and efficacy. Use actual arguments rather than a freedom-restricting approach of "you are getting vaccinated whether you like it or not". I'd even be fine with the government itself running such a campaign, if they are the ones offering the vaccination (which they usually are). In practice, such campaigning always accompanies large vaccination programmes, and it does work.

My conclusion is that an adult not vaccinating himself tends to have a minor effect on "society" at large, and that alternatives exist to mandatory vaccination (namely information campaigns) to encourage mass vaccination. The restriction on freedom of mandatory vaccination is unjustified.
 
No, murder is a moral and legal prohibition. There are very few moral obligations governments legislate (There aren't many legal obligations on individuals full stop, compared to the prohibitions, or the obligations on organisations). Some laws requiring reporting certain things. Educating your children. Certainly not having a substance injected into you, the contents of which you cannot verify yourself.

What? I'm sorry, I seriously did not understand a word you just said. Could you write it in a somewhat different way, or someone else try to explain this logic chain here?
 
There is a difference between the government FORBIDDING you to do things, and it REQUIRING you to do things. Most laws that affect individuals forbid certain actions - we call those actions crimes. Very few actually make every citizen do something. In fact I can't think of any major ones in Britain other than paying taxes. Being required to take an action I feel is more intrusive. (Some countries require citizens to own and carry identity cards. That's the sort of intrusive requiring law I'm arguing against.)

Yes I know requirement of action is logically equivalent to prohibition of non-action. But that doesn't affect my argument - that governments shouldn't prohibit non-actions of individuals.

That's a political view of course (one that would generally be considered libertarian). You are welcome to disagree.
 
Unfortunately, the assumption that most people make decisions based on a careful and rationalisation of all factors after taking time to gather facts from reliable sources fails is many, if not most, cases. Even less people are actually going to act on their conclusions.

I do believe that individuals should be free do make their own decisions as much as possilble, but to assume that these decisions, even when about personal issues, cannot have a direct severe negative effect on others is naive. If a couple of parents are too lazy to take the vaccine willingly or are sceptical about its effects and are killed by the disease, their children are left parentless and the state is left burdened. On a large scale, dead breadwinners and care givers are an unacceptable damage to society and the state is compelled to intervene.

It is also important to bear in mind what is being asked. It's half an hour of the day, and possibly about five minutes of discomfort in the relevant limb. It is a very minor imposition considering the possible consequences of not vaccinating people. In fact, I would still advocate compulsory vaccinations for serious diseases even if everyone was willing to have them anyway, since the mandate of a state is to protect individuals and facilitate a functional society, and protection against diseases and loss of parents/etc is a fairly basic part of that.

There is also the issue of preventing the spread of disease. It is fairly obvious that the elimination of diseases is of general benefit to humanity, and while the violation of personal freedoms cannot be rationalised by benefits to others, it can be argued that compulsory vaccinations is general self-defence agaisnt serious diseases.

The case for the compulsory vaccinating of children is especially strong, since the child has minimal influence on the decision and often does not possess adequate resources (metal or educational) to make an informed choice. Protecting children from the potentially lifelong consequenes of serious diseases clearly takes priority over the fairly trivial objections raised.

Even if we discard the issue of mandatory child vaccination, as I sense the discussion here is more about an adult's choice, I think you will find more than sufficient reason for a state to impose a protective measure which violates freedom minimally. This is fairly similar to curfews and back-outs in wartime, although admittedly less extreme.
 
(2) other people who have not been vaccinated; and (3) people who cannot get vaccinated due to a health problem.

People who received a vaccination can still be given a disease. The point should be to minimize spreading as absolutely much as possible, since obviously you cannot ever eradicate/prevent entirely.
 
the child has minimal influence on the decision and often does not possess adequate resources (metal or educational) to make an informed choice.

So the parents make that choice, just as they make the majority of choices regarding their children.

I'm not sure whether its more or less justifiable to force the vaccination of children compared to adults, but I will say that forced vaccination of children could provoke even more public outrage than that of adults. Parents are very protective of their children.
 
For adults, I don't think that the government can (or even should) literally force vaccines into people (if you've got a reasonable solution, I would like to hear it - I'm being serious), but I wouldn't be opposed to things like fines for adults who opt out of getting boosters for vaccines. That way it will discourage people from skipping vaccinations and endangering other people, but people aren't actually being coerced, just given a really good incentive to vaccinate. However, if this is inadequate in vaccinating a sufficient number of adults, then a new solution would have to be implemented.

However, I do believe that for children, vaccines like smallpox or polio should 100% be necessary, regardless of the parents' religious beliefs or whatever.

Generally, they won't, since it's not rational to

Even disregarding media-generated controversies, I've already explained why not vaccinating can appear perfectly rational to a reasonable individual. When a disease is common, the rational thing to do is to vaccinate to protect yourself from the disease. With everybody being vaccinated, the disease dies down, and now the individual might not want to risk any potential side-effects just to vaccinate for a disease they no longer perceive to be a threat.

A historical example - in Stockholm, Sweden in the 60s, when anti-vaccination sentiments were particularly high, only about 40% of the population received smallpox vaccines. Wouldn't you know it - smallpox outbreak.

It's unreasonable for everybody else to surrender control of their own bodies in order to marginally improve the (3) group's quality of life

I'd say that you are the one being unreasonable. Minimizing human contact isn't a marginal difference to most people, and giving people a small, safe injection that protects other people from them isn't, in a practical application of the word, surrendering control of your own body. You could argue that that is a dangerous precedent to set, but the slippery slope is still a logical fallacy, and I've explained why the government would be really careful about what vaccines are selected as mandatory because it would be so easy to spin an overlooked side-effect into "The Government is force-feeding your child poison!"

A group (4) you didn't include were people who were vaccinated. Because of vaccine failure, absolutely everyone is exposed in a disease outbreak, and though those who were vaccinated are considerably safer, they aren't rendered completely immune. In the 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana, more than 5% of the affected had gotten their measles vaccine.
 
Plenty of people don't like needles. I'm one of them. I've evaluated the statistics on the H1N1 flu and concluded it is not worth the anxiety of getting vaccinated to avoid a negligible chance of serious illness.

Sorry to veer so far from the subject, and I am not using this as a reason why mandatory vaccination should be legal. I just thought that I would let you know Colin that I too have a massive fear of needles, which is why I'm getting the nasal spray. So, if you want to get the vaccination, I highly reccomend this option. As an added bonus, the nasal spray contains no preservatives. (This is what caused the cases of autism and Guillian Barre syndrom)
 
I agree on children being required to get vaccines for deadly diseases like polio and small pox but I frown on the fact that if that was taken to the extremes people could have there children being forcefully removed from there home/school/etc... to have a vaccination.
 
For adults, I don't think that the government can (or even should) literally force vaccines into people (if you've got a reasonable solution, I would like to hear it - I'm being serious), but I wouldn't be opposed to things like fines for adults who opt out of getting boosters for vaccines.

Fines for people who don't get the vaccine is what I assumed we were talking about under the name "mandatory vaccinations", seeing as it's how all existing mandatory vaccination programmes work. It's what I'm opposed to.

Even disregarding media-generated controversies, I've already explained why not vaccinating can appear perfectly rational to a reasonable individual. When a disease is common, the rational thing to do is to vaccinate to protect yourself from the disease. With everybody being vaccinated, the disease dies down, and now the individual might not want to risk any potential side-effects just to vaccinate for a disease they no longer perceive to be a threat.

And I've already explained that you are free to run a campaign explaining this and making it known. Explain to people why they should get vaccinated rather than forcing it on them (and the way I have been using "forcing" in this thread is to charge them a fine if they choose not to get it).

I'd say that you are the one being unreasonable. Minimizing human contact isn't a marginal difference to most people, and giving people a small, safe injection that protects other people from them isn't, in a practical application of the word, surrendering control of your own body. You could argue that that is a dangerous precedent to set, but the slippery slope is still a logical fallacy, and I've explained why the government would be really careful about what vaccines are selected as mandatory because it would be so easy to spin an overlooked side-effect into "The Government is force-feeding your child poison!"

It wouldn't be setting a precedent because the precedent is already set. In North America (and every country basically), you already don't own your own body. For example, everywhere in North America, there are restrictions on your ability to kill yourself. I'm sure you can come up with other examples of ways the government already limits your control over your own body. That's why it's not the precedent I'm worried about (which is already set). In fact, if precedent were an acceptable argument, it would clearly support mandatory vaccination, since it's already in use in the US, and has been used for notable outbreaks in the past as well. However, I'm not concerned with precedent, but rather what is acceptable in a free society.

Specifically, what I'm worried about is further violation of the principle that you own your body, which mandatory injection specifically is. In a free society, the only person who decides what happens to your body (assuming you refrain from harming other people) is you. That means you should not be coerced via monetary punishment or any other means to inject a particular substance into your body.

I agree vaccinations are a good thing, and I understand that a lot of the population has to vaccinate for it to be a net positive (or else it can actually be a negative since the average case of the disease will be at a later age, possibly leading to a higher fatality rate). That's why I would do my part to convince people to vaccinate against a major disease, and why I encourage anybody who supports vaccinations to help campaign as well. However, it's not an excuse to curtail people's freedom to control their own bodies. There are no excuses to do this unless the person has actually hurt others.

A group (4) you didn't include were people who were vaccinated. Because of vaccine failure, absolutely everyone is exposed in a disease outbreak, and though those who were vaccinated are considerably safer, they aren't rendered completely immune. In the 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana, more than 5% of the affected had gotten their measles vaccine.

The same principle applies: minimise your contact with others if you are concerned about contracting the disease, which might be prudent during an outbreak. Or join in spreading information about the advantages to vaccination, including the long-term advantages. It's possible to make a real difference with actual arguments rather than forcing people to do things they don't want to do (and again, the whole time, I have been construing "force" to include levying a fine for disobedience, since that is how all real life mandatory vaccination schemes have operated).
 
It wouldn't be setting a precedent because the precedent is already set. In North America (and every country basically), you already don't own your own body.
Err, what? What law states this, in any country? I'm calling BS here. Certainly in England the laws against suicide were repealed ages ago.
 
Err, what? What law states this, in any country? I'm calling BS here. Certainly in England the laws against suicide were repealed ages ago.

I cannot give you the specific law, but I can vouche for the fact that it is indeed illegal to kill yourself in America. Also, I think that the government should only step in when children are involved. If I child dies from N1H1 and the parents refused to let their children get the vaccine, I think they should be prosecuted. Once you turn eighteen, you have the right to make your own decisions, but up until then I trust the government over the vast idiocy and ignorance of some parents.
 
While there is no law specifically stating that you do not own your own body (lol), Colin is correct in that the United States has already made several laws implying that citizens do not have the right to do anything they want to their own body, even at negligible risk to all other citizens (and humans, for that matter).

His example of suicide being illegal is one, as well as the prohibitions of some drugs, forcing bicyclists to wear helmets (though this is a state law, not federal), and various other personal safety laws. Regardless of how free you may think society 'should' be, it is certainly true that in most of the Western World you do not hold the complete rights to your own body.
 
Err, what? What law states this, in any country? I'm calling BS here. Certainly in England the laws against suicide were repealed ages ago.

It's not "illegal" to kill yourself; however, basically everywhere in the West, if you attempt it, you can be committed to a psychiatric facility against your will. Surely you must be familiar with these laws. The relevant legislation in the UK (where I assume you live) is the Mental Health Act (my link is to the version as currently in force). Familiarise yourself with the very first section of Part II:

A patient may be admitted to a hospital and detained there ... [if] he is suffering from mental disorder of a nature or degree which warrants the detention of the patient in a hospital for assessment (or for assessment followed by medical treatment) for at least a limited period; and he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety
You may want to read the whole Act, but you'll discover that you can in fact be detained without having committed any crime, if you attempt to kill yourself (or even based on less than that). Similar acts exist throughout the West.
 
It's not "illegal" to kill yourself; however, basically everywhere in the West, if you attempt it, you can be committed to a psychiatric facility against your will.

Ah yes, I forgot about that. I shouldn't have - I know someone who's been sectioned often enough, though never for attempting suicide.
 
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