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Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
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Thanks for the post GracianSmith.
Wow, you used an lead ape with fake out, encore, fire blast, sr? having no cc is a little O.o for me. I am too scared of sub heatran and shit like that.
On my Dragon HO team, I see no reason to use lum on ttar, considering dragonite/salamence with lum berries means I can pretty much always set up on rotoms for nearly free.
I'm surprised that 1338 hasn't mentioned this already, but he got to #7 with the Dragon HO team, and is working on another alt because he had used 1338 before he started using the team and it had a really bad rating range. I am also laddering with it and currently sit at 34th or so, but my rating range is looking good so I am optomistic about a deep leaderboard run :) Currently the only difference between the version of the team that he is using and the one I use/posted is that he uses a faster scizor, presumably to get the heads up on empoleon and defensive rotom. Clearly it works :). Also, Scizor is fortunate enough to have 2 possible LO + SR numbers (319 and 279) to work with.
Brick Break / Superpower is a tough call, but I have always enjoyed the extra power on skarm with +2 superpowers and Blissey with +0 superpowers. I have found that the person who loses the azelf speed tie and brings out their sweeper first in a HO vs HO match tends to win, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. non-Azelf DS strategies are incredibly rare.
Wacan/LO manaphy with TG and 3 attacks WILL be amazing, and I am definitely trying a special HO team soon.
Wow, you used an lead ape with fake out, encore, fire blast, sr? having no cc is a little O.o for me. I am too scared of sub heatran and shit like that.
On my Dragon HO team, I see no reason to use lum on ttar, considering dragonite/salamence with lum berries means I can pretty much always set up on rotoms for nearly free.
I'm surprised that 1338 hasn't mentioned this already, but he got to #7 with the Dragon HO team, and is working on another alt because he had used 1338 before he started using the team and it had a really bad rating range. I am also laddering with it and currently sit at 34th or so, but my rating range is looking good so I am optomistic about a deep leaderboard run :) Currently the only difference between the version of the team that he is using and the one I use/posted is that he uses a faster scizor, presumably to get the heads up on empoleon and defensive rotom. Clearly it works :). Also, Scizor is fortunate enough to have 2 possible LO + SR numbers (319 and 279) to work with.
Brick Break / Superpower is a tough call, but I have always enjoyed the extra power on skarm with +2 superpowers and Blissey with +0 superpowers. I have found that the person who loses the azelf speed tie and brings out their sweeper first in a HO vs HO match tends to win, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. non-Azelf DS strategies are incredibly rare.
Wacan/LO manaphy with TG and 3 attacks WILL be amazing, and I am definitely trying a special HO team soon.
I realize the team in the OP sucks, I just don't feel like changing it. I'd run Azelf/Tyranitar/Gyarados/Salamence/Scizor/ and something like Metagross to take advantage of Ttar's ability to kill Rotom and Zapdos, who stop Metagross. Superpower is much more potent than Brick Break because it easily maims SpD Skarmory, and is overall a much more powerful and useful move. It hits waters (if you're not running Bug Bite) extremely hard after an SD.
It needs some special attackers that can get past through Blissey/Latias.
CM Mismagius is still the best special answer to Blissey(and it also take Latias out), it should be considered.
CM Jirachi with Wish can also beat both(with the plus of beating Tyranitar as well).
You'll need something that is really fast. Specs Jolteon, NP Azelf,CM Raikou, Starmie, Gengar, Latias... they all work.
Kingdra is meh. NP Togekiss is really good, but you'll need some para support(if you want 2 attacks+Roost on it) to work more effectively.
Empoleon is good too. With its resistances to priority attacks and such.
Honorable mentions: Subcharge Rotom, Offensive CM Suicune, Zapdos, Shaymin, NP Infernape, Rivalry Nidoking(believe me... it works).
CM Mismagius is still the best special answer to Blissey(and it also take Latias out), it should be considered.
CM Jirachi with Wish can also beat both(with the plus of beating Tyranitar as well).
You'll need something that is really fast. Specs Jolteon, NP Azelf,CM Raikou, Starmie, Gengar, Latias... they all work.
Kingdra is meh. NP Togekiss is really good, but you'll need some para support(if you want 2 attacks+Roost on it) to work more effectively.
Empoleon is good too. With its resistances to priority attacks and such.
Honorable mentions: Subcharge Rotom, Offensive CM Suicune, Zapdos, Shaymin, NP Infernape, Rivalry Nidoking(believe me... it works).
Just thought I'd mention that I've been using your Dragon team on the ladder aswell (hope you don't mind, you did encourage it!) and I also made it onto the leaderboard, which is a first for me and it makes me wonder... does heavy offense really take no skill like goofball and some other people have said? To be honest, I don't usually even need to "long term think" when using this team but I do think heavy offense takes some time to get used to because when I first started using this team It was kind of difficult to use but now I'd defiantly say that HO is a lot easier to use than the standard bulky offense and stall teams. If you haven't tried heavy offense and want to give it a go then I'd recommend giving Anachronism's team a spin.
By the way, what do you do vs Endeavour Infernape leads? You can't set up anything on it because the focus sash will just save it and it can use Endeavour + Vacuum Wave to kill you. I usually send Dragonite in and Earthquake it twice.
I agree, Anachronism's team is a very powerful team to use. I also like it personally because it fits my playstyle very well. If you're considering trying out HO, Anachronism's team is definately the way to go.
But you might not get much of a sweep with your jolly lucario.
Sure, it's still a coin flip, but, at least you actually have a chance of sweeping. Jolly Lucario really falls short in the power department.
Yeah, with Heatran leads, or resiting pokes, just use Encore, and he'll keep subbing or Earth Powering or whatever. Free switch, or just let Infernape die. Its awesome.
Another thing I don't like is how badly those stupid Dragonite leads beat DS Azelf. And, sometimes, the rest of your team with FB/DM/ES/EQ
Thanks for the support guys :) The team is quite good. I'm starting to agree that it doesn't take much skill to use it, but skill certainly helps :). I have stopped using it now that I am on the board though, because stall tends to be better at the top. It allowed me to only accumulate 4 losses on the way up. but I think it gets worse when it gets higher. This team is very different from most HO teams in that respect.
I don't like Dragonite leads either, but at least they won't get up rocks early.
As far as infernape leads go, I recommend bringing in ttar and then swithing to mence assuming rocks aren't up. Otherwise just attack it until it dies. There are some logistic disadvantages to not using Gyara, but double dragon is so beastly it is totally worth it imo.
There are quite a lot of options for special HO, as M Blade has mentioned, and pretty much everything is fast!
CM Latias, NP Mismagius, LO Gar, Charge Beam or CM Raikou, AgiliPoleon (given one turn of set up), LO mie, TG Manaphy, etc. are all strong and fast! You almost don't need Dragon Dance when everything on the team outspeeds the majority of the meta already. You just need a couple of exploders to take out blissey, and rest of the team destroys everything else.
I look forward to testing special HO sometime. I might stray away from the 1 Azelf + 5 Sweeper thing and use Pursuit + Superpower ttar just to guarantee the kill on blissey/latias, because I hate them with a passion.
I expect ttar + manaphy teams to become pretty common. Manaphy is such a beast when blissey/latias are trapped and killed.
I don't like Dragonite leads either, but at least they won't get up rocks early.
As far as infernape leads go, I recommend bringing in ttar and then swithing to mence assuming rocks aren't up. Otherwise just attack it until it dies. There are some logistic disadvantages to not using Gyara, but double dragon is so beastly it is totally worth it imo.
There are quite a lot of options for special HO, as M Blade has mentioned, and pretty much everything is fast!
CM Latias, NP Mismagius, LO Gar, Charge Beam or CM Raikou, AgiliPoleon (given one turn of set up), LO mie, TG Manaphy, etc. are all strong and fast! You almost don't need Dragon Dance when everything on the team outspeeds the majority of the meta already. You just need a couple of exploders to take out blissey, and rest of the team destroys everything else.
I look forward to testing special HO sometime. I might stray away from the 1 Azelf + 5 Sweeper thing and use Pursuit + Superpower ttar just to guarantee the kill on blissey/latias, because I hate them with a passion.
I expect ttar + manaphy teams to become pretty common. Manaphy is such a beast when blissey/latias are trapped and killed.
Honestly, D-nite leads weren't that hard to beat. It was mostly mind games and almost all of them Draco meteor on the first turn which is why I usually Light Screened. I have only fought one that hasn't Draco meteored on the first turn and it ran dragon claw.
Special HO might actually become more popular now. Manaphy under DS is going to be my new Uber Suicune for OU. :)
With stall everywhere I don't know why Heracross isn't rising in usage. It's been more productive than mixmence IMO, and together stall is massacred.
Special HO might actually become more popular now. Manaphy under DS is going to be my new Uber Suicune for OU. :)
With stall everywhere I don't know why Heracross isn't rising in usage. It's been more productive than mixmence IMO, and together stall is massacred.
You're right, they aren't that difficult to beat, but if they have a "hard" counter for a pokemon you are using, you're pretty much screwed. Dragonite still 2HKOs with Draco Meteor + Extremespeed, whether you Reflect or Light Screen. You aren't getting up Stealth Rock, which means Lucario loses some important OHKOs(SD Infernape as well). If you decide to bring out something like Scizor, and they have a Rotom-A, your pretty much screwed, as Will-o-Wisp is a given. I've noticed setting up on Dragonite with something like Tyranitar isn't bad(someone mentioned this earlier) if you set up Reflect, as a -2 Draco Meteor under SS doesn't do much to Ttar, and EQ doesn't either with a Reflect up.
Because SD Hera is practically deadweight against offensive teams. If you were playing in a tournament and were expected to take on an opponent that is known to play stall frequently, then SD Hera merits consideration. However, there are better options as far as the ladder is concerned, although Heracross' Ground and Fighting resistances are useful.
With paralysis support it can destroy offense, then again, pretty much anything with paralysis support destroys offense.
SD Heracross is countered by the same stuff as SD Luke (other than hippowdon with more than 85%), but SD Luke has an easier time getting a sd in, and takes less from hazards/bullet punch. Lucario is also faster, though you could argue that you can use jolly on cross and retain the same attack as Luke.
lol, I don't even think it has a counter (all of the stuff that "counter" it are KOed by SD FO facade even intimidate users I think). Hera forced more switches because most people thought it was scarfed when I played it so it's arguable as to which is easier to set up. :/
Old post, I know. But I'm new to the thread and I've been thinking- Togekiss with Nasty Plot, Heal Bell/Psycho Shift, Air Slash, Aura Sphere, with a significant investment in SpDef EVs to survive non-boosted Tbolts and Ice Beams. As long as you also use a Rotom counter that can absorb WoW, could this be a viable answer to status issues on HO teams? I used a Psycho Shift Togekiss as a wallbreaker on my Bulky Offense team and it worked similarly (though obviously, as a status absorber instead of a wall breaker, Heal Bell would be superior due to its ability to heal the WHOLE team...)
That's quite gimmicky....
Honestly, substitute is probably the best answer to status in HO as it has many uses and doesn't waste a turn healing the team. Rather, it prevents it from happening in the first place. Togekiss with psycho shift can cripple a wall, but the wall can cripple it again. Heal bell just wastes a turn the opponent can use to set up.
Honestly, substitute is probably the best answer to status in HO as it has many uses and doesn't waste a turn healing the team. Rather, it prevents it from happening in the first place. Togekiss with psycho shift can cripple a wall, but the wall can cripple it again. Heal bell just wastes a turn the opponent can use to set up.
Heal Bell does not seem like a generally good solution for two reasons. First, the turn you use to Heal Bell is a turn not spent threatening your opponent, and you lose some momentum; second, it only comes up at all if you work to preserve your status-afflicted Pokemon, which often isn't going to be correct anyway. Substitute, Taunt, Lum Berry, and smashing them up before they can status you are really the best answers in my experience. Lum in particular is probably underappreciated. Life Orb is frequently good, but sometimes it's beneficial to avoid taking the 10% recoil that makes it easier for opponents to wear you down, and on a lot of guys Lum is a fine generic item to slap on that will be useful often enough to merit the slot.
Where is the love for lum berry?
Outragers benefit from losing confusion, and get a free turn out of opposing w-o-w's. Sub Lum Kingdra gets two free turns. use them and never worry about status.
Outragers benefit from losing confusion, and get a free turn out of opposing w-o-w's. Sub Lum Kingdra gets two free turns. use them and never worry about status.
I've been trying to use weavile a bit, but there's a problem. I run ice shard/night slash/brick break/sword dance, but the big problem with it seems to be everyone expects a persuit when you switch into something weak to it, and you have to either attack or get KO'd. The speed and attack makes it look awesome for HO, but it just never seems to get a chance to set up. Maybe run 4 attacks instead?
Honestly, I'm absolutely disguisted at the amount of bullshit HO teams I face on the ladder these days. While I admit, it makes my defensive balance team obselete, teams like this get completely fucked over by my "screw your heavy offense bullshit I have a lead that beats your entire team" Infernape. Needless to say, if your opponent has a Brick Breaker somewhere on the team you lose. The Ape I was using is a Fire Blast / Brick Break / Encore / Stealth Rock varient, which guarentees me a 100% win against these teams.
What ever happened to strategy and actual team building? Now its just Insert DS Azelf and 5 sweepers with LO. Same bullshit when Deoxys-E was prowling around.
What ever happened to strategy and actual team building? Now its just Insert DS Azelf and 5 sweepers with LO. Same bullshit when Deoxys-E was prowling around.
Agreeing that there are WAY too many bullshit HO teams on the ladder being used by people who have no fucking clue what they are doing. On my current team all I really have to do against HO is keep sending in my Scarf Rotom and that's about all it takes to beat them. It is ridiculous how easily HO is beaten by priority users and scarfers.
At least when people were using DS-S leads they put some effort into team building now it's like players think that they can slap any 5 sweepers and Azelf on a team and be fine. I will be very glad when this trend passes as these teams are easily beaten and usually poorly constructed, actually I hope it stays around because that's just more easy wins for me.
At least when people were using DS-S leads they put some effort into team building now it's like players think that they can slap any 5 sweepers and Azelf on a team and be fine. I will be very glad when this trend passes as these teams are easily beaten and usually poorly constructed, actually I hope it stays around because that's just more easy wins for me.
The problem I'm having with heavy offense trend really is that my defensive balance teams are fucked over unless I find a way to put Brick Break on them which is bullshit. But any other team has their way with them.. even my lame Trap team.
maybe you're just bad?
No, it is indeed true that heavy offense reliably beats most forms of stall (if done right). That is why its so common on the ladder.
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