What makes HP more important than accuracy?

[kd24]

I was looking at X-Act's November moveset stats and thought to myself, "Why is it that Flare Blitz is used so little? .7% of the time compared to 6.2% (Fire Blast), is a pretty large gap, so I assumed it was likely just that Fire Blast was more available, and since only Infernape used Flare Blitz in OU really, he would be a lot closer. So I looked at the detailed Shoddy stats and looked at Pokemon commonly used in OU that have access to Fire Blast and Flare Blitz, which in this case was pretty much solely Infernape, and saw that Fire Blast is used over 20% more of the time.
　
I also have to assume that a lot if not most of those Flare Blitz being used were on CB sets, and maybe some SD sets. But I want to discuss using Flare Blitz on the standard mixed sets really (but feel free to bring those up).
　
Before you say "So, who cares at all?", I think it is important to point out that this isn't a "Power > Accuracy" thread, its a thread asking "why is HP > Accuracy?", in the case of Fire Blast vs Flare Blitz. Fire Blast and Flare Blitz both have the same power, but Fire Blast is obviously used much more on Infernape than the other which somewhat confuses me. The metagame is a lot more physically dominated, and I think almost everyone can agree to this because of how a lot of Pokemon are preyed on for their low Defense. And the Pokemon great at walling physical hits are likely weak to Flare Blitz and will likely be close to death upon taking a hit anyway (Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross).
　
Flare Blitz does give you 1/3 of the damage you deal, and this will always happen, unlike Fire Blast only missing 15% of the time. But isn't the risk of missing an important kill enough to make Flare Blitz worth it, especially in a game where missing that kill will usually mean losing Infernape? If there is no difference in power, why not use the attack that will cost you only 1/3 of your damage dealt 100% of the times it is used, instead of one where it will cost you all of your life, 1/7 of the time, if you miss (Infernape is frail enough that I'm assuming they just killed you when you missed)?
　
I am not suggesting or trying to persuade anyone to switch from Fire Blast to Flare Blitz on their Infernape Close Combat/Grass Knot/Hidden Power Ice set, but just saying it is something to consider, and I want to hear why you think it should never be an option or why you do consider it?
　
This thread has two purposes, the first one is to discuss why "Fire Blast missing 15% of the time is still better than Flare Blitz only taking off 1/3 of the damage you deal, but hitting 100% of the time".
　
The other purpose is just a general discussion, on why HP is so much more important than accuracy (and I will assume Power for some people, although maybe this isn't the case, as evidenced by Life Orb being preferred to Leftovers.). It isn't impossible to heal HP, even on Infernape as Wish or Healing Wish from teammates, or switching to Leftovers from Life Orb.
　
Once again, I didn't go as indepth on why and how it would be worth it, as that should stay later for the thread, so it can pick up steam. If you are posting to say "It is a terrible option", that is a fine opinion and it may even be the most "correct" one, but I will try to defend my stance that Flare Blitz may be the better move in that situation, or should at least be considered, even if it isn't the "better move".

 

[bearsfan092]

I think there's something unique about that particular case. Flare Blitz is more or less Infernape's move. Many Infernapes utilize Life Orb. Add on recoil from Flare Blitz, Weather damage, stealth rock, spikes, and potentially poison, it speeds up Infernape's death much more quickly, especially considering the amount of priority in the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Add on to the fact that this is a physically oriented metagame, and most Pokemon sets are geared as such, so utilizing Fire Blast will be more effective usually.

 

[kd24]

I think there's something unique about that particular case. Flare Blitz is more or less Infernape's move. Many Infernapes utilize Life Orb. Add on recoil from Flare Blitz, Weather damage, stealth rock, spikes, and potentially poison, it speeds up Infernape's death much more quickly, especially considering the amount of priority in the game.

i agree that flare blitz could result in you dying too quickly, but if you are that worried, i don't see why you wouldn't bring rapid spin support, switch to leftovers, maybe use heal bell, etc. Fire Blast is going to hurt you 1/7 times, (obviously less if they switch out and you miss, as there is no down).

priority is a huge problem, but how bad is it really, when you have close combat and lo damage weakening you off enough anyway for it to ko.

 

[skorpion123]

I think there's something unique about that particular case. Flare Blitz is more or less Infernape's move. Many Infernapes utilize Life Orb. Add on recoil from Flare Blitz, Weather damage, stealth rock, spikes, and potentially poison, it speeds up Infernape's death much more quickly, especially considering the amount of priority in the game.

Add on to the fact that this is a physically oriented metagame, and most Pokemon sets are geared as such, so utilizing Fire Blast will be more effective usually.

And that most steel types have higher base defense than Special defense . And that Close Combat already hits very hard on the physical side of things. (So if something has a weaker spe defence than attack you can hit it with the special attack. So if you would run a mix-set and a mix set you can't run Flare blitz.

And that He gets a nice special priority move , Fire blast , hp ice , Grass Knot and it's advantageous to run a nasty plot special attack set.

 

[reyscarface]

i agree that flare blitz could result in you dying too quickly, but if you are that worried, i don't see why you wouldn't bring rapid spin support, switch to leftovers, maybe use heal bell, etc. Fire Blast is going to hurt you 1/7 times, (obviously less if they switch out and you miss, as there is no down).

Thats the deal, why would I cut out my power on other moves by using Leftovers and any other item over Life Orb when I can just use Life Orb and take no recoil from my STAB. Infernape is a late game sweeper, this means you WANT it to survive last turn assaults, with Flare Blitz you will die as soon as you see a Skarmory or Metagross, with Fire Blast this doesnt happen, which means you have more shots at hitting the other team. In all honesty who likes his Infernape to die in the middle of the job he is meant to do on a team?

 

[skorpion123]

kd24

Kd24 , in what cases would it be advantageous to run a Flare blitz set instead of using Fire blast instead ?

I fail to see your logic here. Those moves have more differences than the one having 15% less accuracy than the other , and the other forcing you 1/3 recoil.


In which cases you would rather flare blitz instead of fire blast and why ?

 

[bearsfan092]

i agree that flare blitz could result in you dying too quickly, but if you are that worried, i don't see why you wouldn't bring rapid spin support, switch to leftovers, maybe use heal bell, etc. Fire Blast is going to hurt you 1/7 times, (obviously less if they switch out and you miss, as there is no down).

priority is a huge problem, but how bad is it really, when you have close combat and lo damage weakening you off enough anyway for it to ko.

Thing is, if you consider all the work it takes (Rapid Spin support, cleric support), it's not worth it just to be able to use Flare Blitz, especially considering Vaporeon and Latias still stop you dead in your tracks. Priority is a very bad thing, because otherwise, Infernape's high speed would grant it an additonal attack or two before dying. Priority cuts that short.

 

[boredomisbliss]

i really dont see why you would use fire blast over flare blitz. as rey pointed out, two of the most common targets for fire blast are skarmory and metagross, who have significantly lower special defense than defense. this can be expanded to say things such as magnezone, and most other steels. also, if you really wanted, most salamence run naive which cuts special defense, and gyarados/salamence both have intimidate. if you wanted something physical, close combat is a much better choice.

 

[Objection]

I suspect that Fire Blast/Flare Blitz is not the best example. However, I think in OU it is the only available example.

@Neato: Being fire-type does not equal SR weakness. See: Infernape, Heatran, Blaziken, Camerupt.

 

[neato]

it is because it is a fire attack that fireblast is used more than flareblitz.
Every pokemon that knows flare blitz is fire, meaning it is weak to stealth rock. You lose 25% every switch in, so for fire types health is a more valuable resource. If you run LO, then you're losing even more. If the pokemon is not weak to stealth rock, then health would not be as valuable, and the recoil pokemon would be used more. If there was a water blitz for example, it would probably be used more than hydro pump, becuase to water types, health is not such a precious commodity.

 

[Lite]

It is just preference in the metagame in the way it has evolved

 

[skorpion123]

it is because it is a fire attack that fireblast is used more than flareblitz.
Every pokemon that knows flare blitz is fire, meaning it is weak to stealth rock. You lose 25% every switch in, so for fire types health is a more valuable resource. If you run LO, then you're losing even more. If the pokemon is not weak to stealth rock, then health would not be as valuable, and the recoil pokemon would be used more. If there was a water blitz for example, it would probably be used more than hydro pump, becuase to water types, health is not such a precious commodity.

Correct.

In this case their is also the issue of Infernape having secondary great stab. (and a great fighting move along with it)

That's why a pure Fire pokemon like Arcanine . with high attack may run Flare blitz regardless of the cost for it's health.

 

[Chinese Dood]

I think these points have been mentioned already, but just to summarize:

1) Fireblast is a TM move that quite a number of pokemon can learn, whereas Flare Blitz is limited to a few pokemon (and in OU it's primarily Infernape).

2) Fireblast is typically used for coverage on Skarmory and Metagross (and Forretress and other steel types) who have noticeably higher defense compared to special defense.

So, imo, it's not so much about the recoil vs accuracy in the case of Fire Blast vs Flare Blitz, though it certainly plays a part in Infernape's case of typically carrying life orb, making Flare Blitz an unattractive option.

 

[Alex_Dino]

I believe that when it all comes down to it, it's that without HP you can't really, well, attack. Nobody likes a fainted Pokémon, not even when you use Explosion. So HP would naturally take a precedence over power. There are exceptions to this (i.e. using Life Orb, Heavy Offense teams, etc.), I'm sure, but the simple fact that when you're out of HP, you can't attack, gives HP a slight precedence over power. This isn't an end-all, this-is-why-period statement, it's the bare-bones basics of the reason, in my opinion.

 

[ARandomDude]

Min SpA Fire Blast vs Specially Defensive Skarmory:
244 Atk vs 240 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 342 - 404 (102.40% - 120.96%)

Max Atk Flare Blitz vs Max Defense Skarmory:
307 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 248 - 294 (74.25% - 88.02%)
Max Atk Flare Blitz vs Specially Defensive Skarmory:
307 Atk vs 347 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 300 - 354 (89.82% - 105.99%)

As we can see, Infernape's Fire Blast will do a heck of a lot of more damage to Skarmory basically all the time. In addition, look at what happens when Infernape takes down Skarmory with Flare Blitz: he takes either 28 or 29 damage from life orb, depending on whether you run 27 or 31 HP EVs, about 100 damage from Flare Blitz. Once you consider that Infernape is coming in on SR, that's half his HP gone in one shot.

Which gets to my point: Infernape can't late game sweep if he literally takes out two Pokemon before dying to recoil. Here's some food for thought: Infernape comes in on Skarmory, they go to Blissey, predicting Fire Blast/Overheat/Flamethrower, but you Flare Blitz instead.
307 Atk vs 130 Def & 655 HP (120 Base Power): 397 - 468 (60.61% - 71.45%)
So...you just took out like 140 of your own HP. Considering that this scenario happens usually against stall, when there is sandstorm and entry hazard galore...you PROBABLY just lost your Infernape. Right there. And Blissey didn't even die.

I think it's worth mentioning that Infernape gets Slack Off!!!!!!!

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Add on to the fact that this is a physically oriented metagame, and most Pokemon sets are geared as such, so utilizing Fire Blast will be more effective usually.

Exactly, who would you be hitting harder with Flare Blitz over Fire Blast? Most Celebi run alot of Defense so Fire Blast will hit harder. With Skarmory, Metagross, and Forretress's higher Def but low Special Defense Fire Blast will always do more. Blissey? You have Close Combat for that. Stall would also take advantage of Flare Blitz because of LO+Flare Blitz's HP loss.

 

[Lite]

FourthChaser is correct, physical fighting is more oriented towards Bliss in 'Nape's situation and the damage from LO and Blitz is high so what would be the point?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Skarmory isn't the only physically defensive Pokemon out there. Fire Blast is much more effective against things like defensive Rotom, defensive Metagross, even Hippodowon (if you're using HP Ice instead of Grass Knot). In addition, Fire Blast does much more damage to Salamence and Gyarados (especially considering that the former often runs a -sdef nature) due to Intimidate.

 

[cantab]

Fire Blast is learnt by more Pokemon than Flare Blitz. Simple as.

In the case of Ape, you normally have physical fighting and special fire. Sure, you can switch to physical fire, but then you'd also like to switch to special fighting - and there's no 120BP move there.

 

[kd24]

a lot of people make good points, but i think you guys are missing the point somewhat too. yes, i know fire blast is much more available. i think i said that in op. this thread isn't just me asking or saying "flare blitz is so much better, use it/why isn't it used!?". Yes, I do feel it shouldn't be passed over but;

I am not saying Flare Blitz is the better option. However, I want you guys to think about why that HP you saved is more important than accuracy.

Thats the deal, why would I cut out my power on other moves by using Leftovers and any other item over Life Orb when I can just use Life Orb and take no recoil from my STAB. Infernape is a late game sweeper, this means you WANT it to survive last turn assaults, with Flare Blitz you will die as soon as you see a Skarmory or Metagross, with Fire Blast this doesnt happen, which means you have more shots at hitting the other team. In all honesty who likes his Infernape to die in the middle of the job he is meant to do on a team?

isn't that the point though? With Fire Blast you have a straight out 15% chance to die in the middle of the job he is meant to do. With Flare Blitz, you will get the same amount of power at 100% but at an apparently larger price. But is that price larger? You still have HP left, unlike scenario one where you missed and you die.

ARandomDude's damage calculations showed why Infernape would stick to Fire Blast, and I liked those but:

Which gets to my point: Infernape can't late game sweep if he literally takes out two Pokemon before dying to recoil. Here's some food for thought: Infernape comes in on Skarmory, they go to Blissey, predicting Fire Blast/Overheat/Flamethrower, but you Flare Blitz instead.
307 Atk vs 130 Def & 655 HP (120 Base Power): 397 - 468 (60.61% - 71.45%)
So...you just took out like 140 of your own HP. Considering that this scenario happens usually against stall, when there is sandstorm and entry hazard galore...you PROBABLY just lost your Infernape. Right there. And Blissey didn't even die.

I thought we were late game sweeping. You said it yourself. But for some reason my Infernape has taken all sorts of damage from entry hazards and sandstorm already, but we will assume Blissey, Skarmory, etc. are perfectly healthy? If this is lategame, what is more likely is Blissey is at a low enough health that Flare Blitz will ko it, you won't die, but you will be stuck to maybe one last attack.

And why is the Nape user not Close Combating? Stall is a safe strategy, and will likely be using prediction. I would Close Combat the Skarmory, hoping to catch Tentacruel or Vaporeon on a switch-in, especially if they expect Fire Blast / Overheat.

But this is needless theorymon.

Kd24 , in what cases would it be advantageous to run a Flare blitz set instead of using Fire blast instead ?

I fail to see your logic here. Those moves have more differences than the one having 15% less accuracy than the other , and the other forcing you 1/3 recoil.


In which cases you would rather flare blitz instead of fire blast and why ?

good question, and ill give you my answers. If I was using Infernape, I would definitely be using entry hazards, most definitely Stealth Rock to make sure kos were gotten on Zapdos or other common Pokemon that I wouldn't normally ko. I think a lot of people can agree with that.

Now look at 5 Pokemon I would normally use Fire Blast on:

Jirachi
Celebi
Rotom
Zapdos
Skarmory

If I Flare Blitz, I am pretty sure I will OHKO 3-5 from that list, depending on what natures and EVs they are using, not to mention the health, which the lower, the better for me, as I will not lose any extra health. But look at what they all can do. Jirachi can Psychic, Zen Headbutt, Body Slam, or even HP Ground. If I miss with Fire Blast, he gets that free move. If I Flare Blitz, I would win this situation everytime, only I lose more health than if FB hit. If you want to point out that Jirachi would be near full health, that is fine. It means they are likely going to switch out to something that resists Fire-type attacks as they don't want to lose a full health Jirachi. So in reality, worst case scenario with Fire Blast, I miss and die, worst with Flare Blitz?; They switch to something resistant, I take small damage, and I switch, taking more damage from SR, SS, and LO if I have it. Yes I am closer to death, but would Fire Blast have almost the same effect? The only difference is that little extra health I miss out by using FB on a resistant Pokemon.

Celebi, Rotom, and Zapdos can just paralyze me or straight out attack if I Fire Blast and miss. If I hit, then I am in a very good situation but if not, I lost that battle most likely. Like before, Flare Blitz is likely going to kill unless its a Rotom near full health that is defensive enough to survive. Even if it does survive, I have put it in a situation where it can not do its duties for their team anymore.

Infernape does not have to be built around, it could be used to help clear out Pokemon for another sweeper, like Lucario or Breloom.

As for Skarmory, Fire Blast can miss and I get BBed or WWed, or they switch out expecting it, and go to something resistant where I lose more LO health, show them Fire Blast, and likely have to switch. With Flare Blitz, I can KO specially defensive versions, but will likely be BBed or WWed against defensive versions. If they switch, its basically the exact same as Fire Blast.

Here is another advantage of running Flare Blitz + Close Combat; It can give off a false set. Maybe you want to "fake" a SD set. That combination can do it, allowing you to catch a Swampert or Hippowdon with Grass Knot.

 

[skorpion123]

Now look at 5 Pokemon I would normally use Fire Blast on:

Jirachi
Celebi
Rotom
Zapdos
Skarmory

Where are Foretress , Scizor, Metagross , Magnezone, (maybe Mammoswine) + possible random switch ins ?

Now in OU how many pokemon have lower defence than special defence and resist Close combat (but do not resist Fire attacks)?


I can think of only a few ones. Gengar is one with 75 special defence and 60 defence but is still frail anyway , Cresselia has 10 more special defense (130 with 120) , Heracross has 20 more points of special defense (95 with 75) , Zapdos has 5 more points of special defence (90 with 85) , and Roserade which has 55 defence and 105 special defence and i think i have not forgotten anything else.

Now do you want me to list the number of pokemon (and how OU they actually are) that resist Close combat (or it deals less than a fire attack) and Have a lower special defence compared with physical defense ?

It's going to be a bigger list.

Anyway , here it is : Foretress (140 defence with 60 special defence) , Skarmory(140 with 70),Scizor(100 with 80) , Metagross (130 with 90), Magnezone(110 with 90 , though it's also weak to close combat), , Mammoswine (80 with 60) ,Gliscor (125 with 75) ,Breloom (80 with 60)

It also hits Hypowdon hard though it does not resist close combat ( it has 112 defence and 72 special defence).

So yes , to say that our metagame is physically oriented could been an understatement.

Also the differences between defence and special defence are rather big in the second list. Especially when one compares it with the first list. And i claim that the pokemon of the second list are A) bigger threats B) the things that a pokemon such as Infernape should be countering.

And fortunately Infernape has close combat to fight blissey and friends.

even if fire blast had 75 accuracy (it misses one out of 4) it may been preferable. But then we would use flamethrower which is also preferable to Fire blitz IMO.


Oh and Rotom , Celebi, Jirashi , and Bronzong ,Dusknoir along with Uxie (which ok it's underused but you may see it) and Azelf are some of the few pokemon who have same defence and special defence (and don't resist fire attacks).

Zapdos is also one of the few pokemon who resist fighting attacks and does not resist fire attacks and has a little more special defense than physical defense in the OU metagame.

If I Flare Blitz, I am pretty sure I will OHKO 3-5 from that list, depending on what natures and EVs they are using, not to mention the health, which the lower, the better for me, as I will not lose any extra health. But look at what they all can do. Jirachi can Psychic, Zen Headbutt, Body Slam, or even HP Ground. If I miss with Fire Blast, he gets that free move. If I Flare Blitz, I would win this situation everytime, only I lose more health than if FB hit. If you want to point out that Jirachi would be near full health, that is fine. It means they are likely going to switch out to something that resists Fire-type attacks as they don't want to lose a full health Jirachi. So in reality, worst case scenario with Fire Blast, I miss and die, worst with Flare Blitz?; They switch to something resistant, I take small damage, and I switch, taking more damage from SR, SS, and LO if I have it. Yes I am closer to death, but would Fire Blast have almost the same effect? The only difference is that little extra health I miss out by using FB on a resistant Pokemon.

What is important is not "worst case scenario" (in that case all lower than 100% accuracy moves could be deemed as bad because worst case scenario they miss forever never landing a hit. IMO Fire blast > Flamethrower even though the second will always hit and the first will nto always hit. The reason is that Fire blast can 1HKO and 2HKO more things. Or so i believe. ) but "Most likely scenario".

Though if you would rather you could use flamethrower instead. (look in the first part of the post to see that even if it's an 140 move after stab and FlareBlitz it's an 180 move , it would probably hit just as hard if not harder a significant percentage of the metagame without the drawbacks of Flareblitz.)

Between Stealth rock , life orb , if you want to sweep Late game or even to reuse Infernape then you better not carry Flare Blitz. Unless it's a choice band set.

Also it's always possible to survive an attack at low health. Or not 1hKO pokemon that you expected to OHKO. With Flare blitz you may die in that case.

You can calculate what is most possible to happen if you prefer.

But it's mostly because the metagame (but also the most OU pokemon of the OU metagame) in general has lower special defence than physical defence.

As i have shown.

As for Skarmory, Fire Blast can miss and I get BBed or WWed, or they switch out expecting it, and go to something resistant where I lose more LO health, show them Fire Blast, and likely have to switch. With Flare Blitz, I can KO specially defensive versions, but will likely be BBed or WWed against defensive versions. If they switch, its basically the exact same as Fire Blast.

I am not sure you can as reliably as Fire blast KO specially defensive versions even , because even those ones have more defence than special defence.

I would rather have fire blast miss once every a few games than use Flare blitz against Skarmory and take damage for the attack.

And if for some reason i had both Fire blast and Flare blitz in the same moveset , i would use fire blast against Skarmory.

But you can always use flamethrower if you would preffer. Or nasty plot flamethrower.

(while Swords dance Flare blitz is uncommon for reasons we can understand)

Here is another advantage of running Flare Blitz + Close Combat; It can give off a false set. Maybe you want to "fake" a SD set. That combination can do it, allowing you to catch a Swampert or Hippowdon with Grass Knot.

That one is a possible advantage i guess. But what is important is that the metagame's stongest threeats are less prepared to take special fire hits than physical ones.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

This can be (and has been) answered with both common sense and a quick look at the metagame. There's no real discussion to come from this. Don't try to force discussions.