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Blissey
- Thread starter kd24
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First of all this isn't a "Who do you think should be tested thread"
Chansey doesn't have the ability to use special attacks effectively, which is really what sets them apart.
Chansey doesn't have the ability to use special attacks effectively, which is really what sets them apart.
It also has a much lower SpA stat than Blissey as well; though, I certainly think along the same lines as you do in that regard if Blissey was banned.
As stated, Blissey can threaten a few threats with its 'okay' special attack. There would be a far wider pool of Pokemon that could setup unbreakable Substitutes in Chansey's face, and stat up. Blissey's slightly larger physical bulk does help as well. There are many neutral physical attacks that Blissey can stall out right now, whereas they would be enough to 2HKO Chansey.
Blissey, and in a similar stroke, Stealth Rocks, would be interesting to test. Neither should be removed from the standard ladder though, but it would create an awesome alternative ladder. It's more likely to happen on another server though.
Blissey isn't as absolute of a wall as you may think she is. Here is why (I am going out on a limb here...)
Three moves that nobody considers to counter Blissey: Endeavor, Pain Split and Heal Block.
Endeavor - A couple or a few of you are probably wondering what the heck I am talking about here, but it should be obvious enough. Endeavor is a pseudo-Pain Split, but instead of taking both HPs and splitting them between the two, it take your current HP and cuts your opponent's own down to that. On a Pokemon with a low HP Base Stat with a hight Speed Stat, this move can shred Blissey's possible 700+ HP down to almost nothing in one go. Even if she Softboileds next turn, the next move can take care of that problem.
Heal Block - This move is often overlooked in regards to Blissey, and it is easy to see why: it has possibly the lowest number of practitioners of any move (barring Legendary exclusive moves), because of this, practical use of this move in the Metagame has been non-existent, but with the advent of HG and SS, this could change if given some thought.
Now finally, a familiar move to every one.
Pain Split - We all know what this SOB of a move does. It take you, and your Opponent's HP and splits it between you. Its pros involve the possibility of healing yourself with it as well as hurting the opponent, the cons however involve possibly ensure the Pokemon's KO. Pro and Con aside, this move has alot of potential in some areas of the metagame to be exploited to be sure.
Thats my little message for the day here. Later.
Three moves that nobody considers to counter Blissey: Endeavor, Pain Split and Heal Block.
Endeavor - A couple or a few of you are probably wondering what the heck I am talking about here, but it should be obvious enough. Endeavor is a pseudo-Pain Split, but instead of taking both HPs and splitting them between the two, it take your current HP and cuts your opponent's own down to that. On a Pokemon with a low HP Base Stat with a hight Speed Stat, this move can shred Blissey's possible 700+ HP down to almost nothing in one go. Even if she Softboileds next turn, the next move can take care of that problem.
Heal Block - This move is often overlooked in regards to Blissey, and it is easy to see why: it has possibly the lowest number of practitioners of any move (barring Legendary exclusive moves), because of this, practical use of this move in the Metagame has been non-existent, but with the advent of HG and SS, this could change if given some thought.
Now finally, a familiar move to every one.
Pain Split - We all know what this SOB of a move does. It take you, and your Opponent's HP and splits it between you. Its pros involve the possibility of healing yourself with it as well as hurting the opponent, the cons however involve possibly ensure the Pokemon's KO. Pro and Con aside, this move has alot of potential in some areas of the metagame to be exploited to be sure.
Thats my little message for the day here. Later.
Chansey has substantially less SPECIAL defense, 339 vs 405 max. High-powered special hits, especially fighting-type, will hurt Chansey rather more than they do Blissey.
Not even close. See, Breloom has a nice attack and an okay movepool, but seriously, it is way to frail to even be CONSIDERED for a Suspect test. Breloom is only ever a problem if it gets up a Substitute, but even then, a skilled player will be able to deal with a Breloom behind a Sub without losing a Pokemon; at worst, you will have to sacrifice a Pokemon to break the sub, and then KO Breloom with any decent attacker the next turn. Breloom isn't even common enough in the metagame for a test to be considered in the Order of Operations. Blissey is a whole different story, though, walling 1 / 2 of the metagame. The main problem that I see with banning Blissey is making stall virtually non-existent. Blissey is stall's anchor, and for a good reason; absorbing any special attack, having access to both Thunder Wave and Toxic, capable of laying Stealth Rock, using Aromatherapy and Heal Bell, and Wishpassing, Blissey can fulfill any role that you need in a team. The more defensive side of the metagame would be completely re-worked should Blissey leave us, and you can bet old friends such as SpecsJolt and Nasty Plot Azelf will eventually rise in usage with their 100% counter gone.
Blissey is a centerpiece of the defensive and stall players' lineup, and a metagame without her would be a completely different one. Chansey lacks the raw stats to replace Blissey, and eventually falls to powerful boosted Special Attacks. It may be interesting to see what OU is like without Blissey for about a week, but I don't see a metagame without her in the near or distant future.
i am going to answer most of you...
I thought I had tried to make it clear that I do not want to show that Blissey should be removed for a better metagame. I want to show that despite the metagame being better, removing Blissey would be the wrong choice. In UU, we may come to a point where a Pokemon is nominated under the defensive characteristic. By performing this short test in OU, we can try and clear up what exactly fits that characteristic, especially if everyone likes to use the characteristics as an end all to every question.
It is not a question of "being broken/annoying", it is a question of "is removing a Pokemon that would make the metagame more diverse and fun a bad desicion?". In my personal opinion, identifying the answer to this question is very important.
I think scofield and others showed later that Blissey does influence the metagame quite a bit, considering Trick is mainly used for her on plenty of special attackers, and that it sometimes isn't their best option. If we remove Blissey and see a 25% increase in special attackers, but also see that Blissey is not broken, we can make the defensive characteristic more concise, as Blissey is clearly the closest OU Pokemon to it. Let's worry about that later.
Some people don't see OU without salamence or with manaphy, but these are possibilities in the future. Sometimes, we do have to adapt to serious changes. And I am not suggesting that we permanently ban her, but just make it more clear about chracteristics.
Why should a game not be as fun as possible. Why would we want to promote a game that is not fun and more work than it should be? I am not saying Blissey should be banned for those reasons, but I must have missed where we decided as a community that "We don't change the metagame to make it more fun and exciting".
As I already said, I don't want Blissey banned, I want to remove her for a short time period to see the effects on the metagame, redefine the def. characteristic of an uber, and show that perhaps a more fun and diverse metagame is not better.
You can accuse me of theorymonning about removing Blissey would make things better, but come on, would it really make an entire strategy ineffective? Shuckle, Cresselia, Vaporeon, Clefable, Jirachi, etc. can all take the place of Blissey in a stall team and it should still work well enough. If removing Blissey does actually completely make a strategy useless, then that should show how much of a profound effect she does have on the game.
I hope I understand this correctly, but it sounds like you are in agreement, but just for the fact that we can build much more solid definitions of an Uber and reject more votes, and make other votes more clearer.
Even if it is not currently Smogon's policy, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered. If I am playing a game for fun, I want it to be as fun as possible with as many options viable as possible. By removing Blissey, we can see if more options are actually viable and if things do increase. That being said, even if the metagame becomes more fun, I would likely be against banning Blissey, but I still think this is something we should consider if we ever redo smogon policy.
I am going to end on this note: A lot of people mention Blissey is low in usage and then question, "It is other player's faults for not using more special sweepers". The reason they don't is that fear of Blissey. Just encounting one Blissey could completely ruin that certain strategy for a game, and it is a risk people don't like to take. And it is not just one Pokemon, (Gengar, Zam, Raikou, Lanturn, Starmie, etc.)
Ok, I will reply seriously to this even if you aren't taking this seriously. Breloom has plenty of counters (Celebi, Intimidate Mence or Gyarados, Skarmory, Cresselia, Gliscor), and can still be stopped even if it puts one of these to sleep with smart play. Not to mention your offensive set does not even hit Ghost-types at all. Breloom's defenses pale in comparison to Blissey, who can take physical and special hits, mostly special, without almost any trouble at all. As for support, Blissey can take hits and then spread out status. Breloom is too frail to really do this, and since your Breloom has no attacks, I don't really think it is any threat.
The problem is these moves are very rare, and that is because of almost no use besides stopping Blissey. And if Blissey is forcing you to take a moveslot with one of these moves, that really doesn't sound good.
I thought I had tried to make it clear that I do not want to show that Blissey should be removed for a better metagame. I want to show that despite the metagame being better, removing Blissey would be the wrong choice. In UU, we may come to a point where a Pokemon is nominated under the defensive characteristic. By performing this short test in OU, we can try and clear up what exactly fits that characteristic, especially if everyone likes to use the characteristics as an end all to every question.
It is not a question of "being broken/annoying", it is a question of "is removing a Pokemon that would make the metagame more diverse and fun a bad desicion?". In my personal opinion, identifying the answer to this question is very important.
I think scofield and others showed later that Blissey does influence the metagame quite a bit, considering Trick is mainly used for her on plenty of special attackers, and that it sometimes isn't their best option. If we remove Blissey and see a 25% increase in special attackers, but also see that Blissey is not broken, we can make the defensive characteristic more concise, as Blissey is clearly the closest OU Pokemon to it. Let's worry about that later.
Some people don't see OU without salamence or with manaphy, but these are possibilities in the future. Sometimes, we do have to adapt to serious changes. And I am not suggesting that we permanently ban her, but just make it more clear about chracteristics.
Why should a game not be as fun as possible. Why would we want to promote a game that is not fun and more work than it should be? I am not saying Blissey should be banned for those reasons, but I must have missed where we decided as a community that "We don't change the metagame to make it more fun and exciting".
As I already said, I don't want Blissey banned, I want to remove her for a short time period to see the effects on the metagame, redefine the def. characteristic of an uber, and show that perhaps a more fun and diverse metagame is not better.
You can accuse me of theorymonning about removing Blissey would make things better, but come on, would it really make an entire strategy ineffective? Shuckle, Cresselia, Vaporeon, Clefable, Jirachi, etc. can all take the place of Blissey in a stall team and it should still work well enough. If removing Blissey does actually completely make a strategy useless, then that should show how much of a profound effect she does have on the game.
x-act old post said:
I hope I understand this correctly, but it sounds like you are in agreement, but just for the fact that we can build much more solid definitions of an Uber and reject more votes, and make other votes more clearer.
x-act new post said:
Even if it is not currently Smogon's policy, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered. If I am playing a game for fun, I want it to be as fun as possible with as many options viable as possible. By removing Blissey, we can see if more options are actually viable and if things do increase. That being said, even if the metagame becomes more fun, I would likely be against banning Blissey, but I still think this is something we should consider if we ever redo smogon policy.
I am going to end on this note: A lot of people mention Blissey is low in usage and then question, "It is other player's faults for not using more special sweepers". The reason they don't is that fear of Blissey. Just encounting one Blissey could completely ruin that certain strategy for a game, and it is a risk people don't like to take. And it is not just one Pokemon, (Gengar, Zam, Raikou, Lanturn, Starmie, etc.)
random breloom post said:
Ok, I will reply seriously to this even if you aren't taking this seriously. Breloom has plenty of counters (Celebi, Intimidate Mence or Gyarados, Skarmory, Cresselia, Gliscor), and can still be stopped even if it puts one of these to sleep with smart play. Not to mention your offensive set does not even hit Ghost-types at all. Breloom's defenses pale in comparison to Blissey, who can take physical and special hits, mostly special, without almost any trouble at all. As for support, Blissey can take hits and then spread out status. Breloom is too frail to really do this, and since your Breloom has no attacks, I don't really think it is any threat.
The problem is these moves are very rare, and that is because of almost no use besides stopping Blissey. And if Blissey is forcing you to take a moveslot with one of these moves, that really doesn't sound good.
You could argue, however, that the REASON that the metagame is physically based, IS Blissey. Any Special Sweeper that can't physically harm Blissey, or Trick to cripple it, is rendered useless. How often do you see a Special Sweeper without Trick nowadays? Azelf's usually a lead, Emploeon's the one exception, and is usually a cleaner, like Starmie. Latias either hit+runs or Tricks. Infernape has Close Combat. Heatran has Explosion.
Blissey walls possibly half of the Metagame. Some physical attackers can handle Skarmory, due to Fire-trye moves, and the simple fact skarm's HP and physical defence are nothing compared to Blissey on the Special Side of things. Any pure-special attacker is walled by Blissey, without a specialist set, or Trick.
I would support testing Blissey under the Defensive Characteristic. The banning of Blissey (And possibly Chansey, who is only SLIGHTLY weaker), would allow Special Attackers to be viable, while not unstoppable (Vaporeon's a great Special Wall, Suicune, Cress, T-Tar, Bronzong, the list goes on)
Diversity is regarded as a good thing, obviously, but we don't ban Pokemon because of diversity alone. What I mean is that if a Pokemon satisfies neither of the three uber characteristics but would increase diversity if it were banned, it won't be banned. (Blissey seems to be an example of this.) However, if a Pokemon satisfies one or more of the three uber characteristics but somehow doesn't increase diversity when banned (which is impossible in my opinion), it is still banned.
In short, banning a Pokemon that satisfies one of the three criteria to ubers will add diversity to the metagame anyway. However, just because a Pokemon will add diversity to the metagame if banned is not enough reason to ban it.
And actually no, we do not have tiers to promote diversity.
Blissey is typically set-up fodder for the standard NP Missy, in my experience.
Chansey doesn't even dominate in UU. Why would anyone expect it to do well in OU?
kd24: While I think doing this to redefine the Uber Defensive Characteristic is cool, I don't see how it would work, unless you're trying to change it to "It walls most of one whole spectrum of the metagame" or something like that. I would like a little expansion on how that would work, if you wouldn't mind.
Not all of the time. :naughty:
Psych Up / Ice Beam / Flamethrower / Softboiled Blissey walls ALL special attackers not carrying Toxic or Explosion. No question about it.
Jirachi, Suicune, Refresh/Recover Latias and special attacking ghost types can no longer set up on Blissey. Without Protect though, Explosion users such as Azelf, Magnezone and Heatran (Who resists both moves) can now easily take down the fat nurse. I recommend paring the set with Rotom-h, who is immune to Explosion and can take down Blissey's No.1 threat: Scizor.
Psych Up is seen on less than 5% of Blisseys in play. And Taunt still beats it.
Why does it matter that only 5% use it? I'm saying if you use it, it can effectively beat nearly all special attackers in OU.
Against a Taunt'er, it doesn't matter if your using Psych Up or WishBliss because your still going to lose. Not a single wall can stop Taunt; It's every Walls 'achilles heel'.
The Blissey factor is a needed part of today's Standard Metagame, without it who would indefinitely wall the power hitters in OU?
Wait Lite, what about PG2 or Lax, they are a part of the forgotten Standard Metagame it would bring them back to life!!!!
No, not true with Blissey gone there would be less Defense and more offense, particularly ground based [cough*Earthquake*cough]. Less POkemon would run Physical Fighting attacks to thwart Blissey and EQ would reach a percentage of 45% on all Pokemon lessening the amount of ground weak POkemon appearing and more Bulky Waters to appear which in defiantly are the evolution of the current metagame anyway. To think again losing Bliss would not be a particularly BAD thing but ultimately speed up the evoultion process of standard play..
Wait Lite, what about PG2 or Lax, they are a part of the forgotten Standard Metagame it would bring them back to life!!!!
No, not true with Blissey gone there would be less Defense and more offense, particularly ground based [cough*Earthquake*cough]. Less POkemon would run Physical Fighting attacks to thwart Blissey and EQ would reach a percentage of 45% on all Pokemon lessening the amount of ground weak POkemon appearing and more Bulky Waters to appear which in defiantly are the evolution of the current metagame anyway. To think again losing Bliss would not be a particularly BAD thing but ultimately speed up the evoultion process of standard play..
Blissey is a tough one to call broken simply because of the enormous amounts of physical attackers in the metagame. Lucario, Tyranitar, Salamence, Gyarados, Machamp, Infernape, Heracross, Metagross, Kingdra, and Scizor are some of the most common pokemon you will see, and all of their standard sets are physical attacking or mixed attacking. Almost every team has at least one of these, meaning almost every team has at least one counter to a Blissey in most cases. (And if your team doesn't have one of those, it's probably not very good)
In any other metagame or a metagame dominanted by Special Attackers, then the answer would be yes. But because of the sheer number of pokemon that can outspeed Blissey then OHKO it is pretty large. The only real thing Blissey can do is hope to T-wave it on the switch.
In any other metagame or a metagame dominanted by Special Attackers, then the answer would be yes. But because of the sheer number of pokemon that can outspeed Blissey then OHKO it is pretty large. The only real thing Blissey can do is hope to T-wave it on the switch.
I think that, to better define the defense characteristic, we should "test" Blissey. I do not seriously think that Blissey is broken, or that its removal will necessarily "improve" the metagame. This proposed test is different from other tests, as it is not testing based on the grounds that a certain Pokemon is uber, but on the grounds that one of the Uber Characteristics could be "flawed".
It's not flawed. It just needs more clarification. The usage of words such as "common" and "significant portion" are ambiguous, which allows Suspect Test voters to define for themselves what "common" and "significant portion" means, which, in effect, means that all Suspect Voters are voting based on slightly different characteristics.
this
that sums up everything x-act, em, me, and whoever else has said it. im not saying "this is a flawed system, we need to change it". im saying, "lets make it better, give it clarification". And by doing that, we will have a better definition of an uber for the future, whether it be uu or next gen (or even deoxys-d if it was ever tested).
common and significant are vague enough to shape them into whatever argument you want to.
sr and whether its a common battle condition is a whole different subject and while it ties in, it should have its own thread. also, its important to note that i'm not trying to make a clear definition, but just trying to make it clearer.
if its 33%, we can say "if the pokemon walls a significant portion of the metagame, at least 1/3, it is uber by this characteristic."
now we have a much more solid framework to go off of, and not just any thing a voter wants to use. now maybe it is 50% or 60% or some number we won't be able to identify. thats ok, at least we are closer.
Without Blissey, even a NU pokemon like Gorebyss would run rampant in the rain. Getting your team swept by Gorebyss sounds so delicious doesn't it?
really? do you think gorebyss runs rampant in nu or uu right now, where blissey is absent? do you think it is wise to make statements like this without any knowledge of the game without blissey?
not only that, but gorebyss has plenty of "counters" or pokemon that can at least stop it easily, such as vaporeon, snorlax, other water-types, ttar, etc.
Well it seems that we have no other choice. Whatever Smogon does now will create a precedence of what is to come. We can't slouch on our definitions, we're Smogon, for god's sake!
I'd rather open up the can of worms that says "define the Characteristics so that they are unambiguous" than open up the other can of worms that says "leave them as it is, and chance the metagame devolving on itself."
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