Blissey

[Mike Legend]

If the only way to beat a poke is to use it, then you are pretty much confirming that it's way too good.

You're not getting a free switch in on blissey- the lum gets used as she twaves your switch in. You can set up after, but she might just twave you again. Gutsy though, not sure if a +0 close combat will ko her. I'd guess yes.

I highly doubt that blissey will get banned, but I think she is a pretty big turn off to people playing. Pretty much every sweeper in OU is either physical or mixed. I had to go all the way down to empoloen to find a special attacker in ou that actually sets up to attack. Other than that the 4 other special based attackers- gengar, latias, heatran, and starmie- do not set up and are generally not used as sweepers. Latias and heatran are versitile, starmie and gengar tend to be revenge killers or spinners. Stuff like crocune set up, but it's used as a wall.

I never said the only way to beat it was to use it. I merely said it was an alternative solution to your problem. If you're looking for a free switchin on Blissey you'll be hard pressed to find one.

If Blissey is a turn off to people playing then they need to make sure that competitive is what they want. All it takes is one STAB Physical move with a good amount of Attack investment to put Blissey out of commision. If you want to play Special HO then make sure you have a way to deal with Blissey, easy enough.

Not many Special sweepers have the ability to setup which is why you see less of them. Stuff like CM Latias and Sub Petaya Empoleon can all beat Blissey given the right support (Toxic Spikes). Nasty Plot Togekiss can actually beat Blissey one on one without Toxic Spikes.

 

[Staraptor Call]

What is a better, more enjoyable metagame is a highly subjective criterion, and not one that Smogon should be using to ban Pokemon. If Blissey were banned, then a whole type of team, stall, would become far less viable and would be used much less. For people who prefer to use stall teams, this would make OU much less enjoyable, while not necessarily making the metagame more enjoyable for everyone else. Many people dislike battling stall, but for every person annoyed by a battle with a stall team, there is someone who likes using stall. Don't say that a metagame without Blissey would be unequivocally more enjoyable.

And we actually have seen something like the proposed Blisseyless metagame before. When Colossoil went into playtesting, Blissey usage significantly fell due to Colossoil's immunity to Thunder Wave, its benefit from Toxic, and its ability to trap Blissey with Pursuit. The metagame became much faster-paced, and more enjoyable to offense players. But stall users mostly didn't like the Colossoil metagame as much.

 

[Alex_Dino]

You're not getting a free switch in on blissey- the lum gets used as she twaves your switch in. You can set up after, but she might just twave you again. Gutsy though, not sure if a +0 close combat will ko her. I'd guess yes.

I was assuming that your Lucario was already out. And I never said anything about switching in, what I said was set-up while she Twaves you. The Lum Berry will automatically kick in anyway, giving you that turn to set up.

 

[cantab]

There are currently 52 OU Pokemon, and it walls approximately 23 Pokemon in the OU tier. That is around 44% of OU. I may have missed a few more, but there are some I didn't bother to highlight since I'm usually leaning this toward standard. (i.e SpecsKingdra, SpecsInfernape, etc.)

I wouldn't count the Rotom Formes separate for this purpose, (since the special moves make no difference) so it's really 19/48, 39%. Slightly less, but still significant by any means.

I feel like we should revisit the characteristic since people rely on it too much. The consensus of the members know its OU material but can't get a legitimate reason since the Defense Characteristic is in the way. Unfortunately with the description - Blissey is under the criteria.

This is an interesting perspective on it.

I was assuming that your Lucario was already out. And I never said anything about switching in, what I said was set-up while she Twaves you. The Lum Berry will automatically kick in anyway, giving you that turn to set up.

If Luke's already out, why the heck is the other player bringing Blissey in?

 

[Alex_Dino]

If Luke's already out, why the heck is the other player bringing Blissey in?

Excuse me for pulling a psuedo-Russian reversal, but if Blissey's already out, then why the heck are you bringing Luke in? The only reason I could see you bringing him in would be if something already died to it, and then the previous idea of Lum/set-up on Twave would still work.

 

[Stylish Interval]

What is a better, more enjoyable metagame is a highly subjective criterion, and not one that Smogon should be using to ban Pokemon. If Blissey were banned, then a whole type of team, stall, would become far less viable and would be used much less. For people who prefer to use stall teams, this would make OU much less enjoyable, while not necessarily making the metagame more enjoyable for everyone else. Many people dislike battling stall, but for every person annoyed by a battle with a stall team, there is someone who likes using stall. Don't say that a metagame without Blissey would be unequivocally more enjoyable.

And we actually have seen something like the proposed Blisseyless metagame before. When Colossoil went into playtesting, Blissey usage significantly fell due to Colossoil's immunity to Thunder Wave, its benefit from Toxic, and its ability to trap Blissey with Pursuit. The metagame became much faster-paced, and more enjoyable to offense players. But stall users mostly didn't like the Colossoil metagame as much.

What is bolded basically overthrew a whole argument. You can't define enjoyable based on what you solely prefer. A mass of stall players would be upset at the lack of Blissey and find the metagame less enjoyable because with weakened Stall they can't play and win anymore. People who love Blissey now find the Metagame less enjoyable without their favorite Pokemon in it or their favorite Special Wall. Basically, a more enjoyable metagame is impossible to define because their is an infinite number of enjoyable metagames.

 

[bigfoots]

I think it would be interesting to play in a metagame without Blissey. The reason is that while we could see how it affects special sweepers, it would inevitably have more far-reaching effects as well. Blissey alone certainly has an effect on what is even considered to be OU--Alakazam and Raikou come to mind as Pokemon that could easily jump up to OU without the threat of Blissey walling them. Stall teams would have to adapt and use other special walls while possibly carrying more than the one that is needed now. Other Pokemon could also be used differently than they are now--there might not be as much of an incentive to use Explosion on Heatran or Gengar when you could use another coverage move.

That said, I don't think Blissey is even close to Uber, but I do think it is the single most influential Pokemon on the current metagame. I would like to see what happens if it's removed, and I think there would be more changes that would be expected by most people. The insight gained into how one Pokemon effects an entire metagame would certainty help in determining suspects now and in the future.

 

[remlabmez]

This is an interesting thread. For starters the reason why the metagame is so physically based is because of Blissey. If Blissey was not available, I personally would never have a need to use another physical sweeper again.. EVER! Tyranitar and Latias cannot possibly hope to stand up to special threats such as Gengar and Alakazam and LO Starmie looks a lot more menacing (hello Lanturn?). Also, if you take this route, I suspect Chansey will have to be banned as well the same way Wynaut and Wob would be..

Yay after going through the whole thread I found someone with the same thought process as me, the only reason I choose to use SD luke and scizor is because blissey would just wall the hell out of my team.

Though I am for a Blissey test which I doubt would ever happen, I think it would actually promote better play in regarding to switch in and predicting what an LO genar/heatran/starmie is goin to do, I just hate that blissey comes in whenever it wants on a special attacker, walls me completely.

At least on the physical side of things in my point of view, things are pretty balanced out

 

[cantab]

Excuse me for pulling a psuedo-Russian reversal, but if Blissey's already out, then why the heck are you bringing Luke in? The only reason I could see you bringing him in would be if something already died to it, and then the previous idea of Lum/set-up on Twave would still work.

Because Luke's Close Combat OHKO's Blissey. Screw set-up, just bring him in and attack. Or bring him in and setup in the hope Blissey switches out rather than TWaveing again.

 

[Alex_Dino]

Because Luke's Close Combat OHKO's Blissey. Screw set-up, just bring him in and attack. Or bring him in and setup in the hope Blissey switches out rather than TWaveing again.

True... huh, I don't even know why there's a discussion over this, I've done that above scenario quite a few time with my own Lucario. Quaily, if you're having a problem switching into Blissey with your Lucario, again, just put a Lum Berry on it. When you switch in you're free, even if it Twaves you. And Lucario easily outspeeds Blissey, you should have no problem CCing it to put it out of commission.

 

[Quaily]

True... huh, I don't even know why there's a discussion over this, I've done that above scenario quite a few time with my own Lucario. Quaily, if you're having a problem switching into Blissey with your Lucario, again, just put a Lum Berry on it. When you switch in you're free, even if it Twaves you. And Lucario easily outspeeds Blissey, you should have no problem CCing it to put it out of commission.

The situation is more complicated than that. Blissey doesn't just sit there and get OHKO'd by lucario. They switch out to something like gliscor, forcing lucario to switch out. Now you have no lum berry and blissey is still at full health.

 

[Alex_Dino]

Then, if you expect a switch, as most Blissey would do so, Swords Dance. If it's faster than you or resists Fighting, ExtremeSpeed. Otherwise use CC or Crunch depending on the opponent. That right there is the pinnacle of Hyper Offensive teams, scaring the shit out of the opponent's Pokémon so they switch, and while they're switching, set-up, scaring the shit out of them even more. And even if you don't have a HO team it still is viable. It's that simple, really.

 

[ultimifier]

THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF WHETHER OR NOT BLISSEY IS UBER!!!!!!!!

if your gonna post in this thread please read the original post. this is getting so off topic its hurting my head.

also, i'm disapointed no one responded to my lengthy post on the first page. I put quite a bit of thought into that. could some respected members please read it and let me know what you think

 

[X-Act]

Your arguments on testing Blissey are akin to other people's arguments testing Stealth Rock.

Which makes me remember about a post I made more than a year ago:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1602518&postcount=31

 

[Alex_Dino]

Let me see if I can't help you with that. It may not be much, but I'll try anyway.

PLease explain what you mean by that Ulevo. It seems quite disrespectful, and quite hypocritical that you are insulting respected members when you make posts like that.

Ignoring this for obvious reasons

PLease note that I have been a suspect voter before and I respect the time and effort that all PR members have taken to test the suspect pokemon. The system was good at first when the pokemon were more black and white, but now that the votes are so close and theres just too much grey area i truly think that something has to be changed:

I agree with this statement. I also respect the Policy Review members and their decisions. However, like you said, it's getting down to the wire where, what was "good enough" for a definition is simply not good enough. Continuing on.

OP: I think you make a very good argument. It seems that no pokemon can truly fit under any characteristic as it is quite subjective as what is meant by considerable portion and little effort. We currently dont have any number to say this is the line where a pokemon is uber and if they are below it they are OU. Because of this the Suspect tests are usually controversial because the characteristics are subjective and you will almost always have people on each side of the argument.

I agree with this as well. The time has come where every vote counts, and due to the unambiguous nature of the Characteristics, some could interpret the Characteristics differently than others, and therefore vote based on different ideas (i.e. like ultimifier said, "considerable portion" and "little effort," which are quite ambiguous). We need to not redefine the Characteristics, but put numbers, or some kind of unambiguity behind them, so deciding can once again be black and white. Continuing again.

For example, when i play offense I find mence to not be that big of a deal because i simply have 3 pokemon on my team faster than it so it has a hard time setting up. When i play defensively (which i rarely do) i find mence just rapes me. He comes in on my forry late game, DDs and continues to take out 2/3 of my pokemon.

What im trying to say is that if I only played Offensively i probably would vote mence OU and if i played defensively I would vote him uber. This is what we should strive to avoid when making tier decisions because it's not objective at all, its completely subjective.

So what you're saying is that, in order to get a more "rounded" view of said Suspect, and in the process, get to know more about said Suspect, you need to use it in all different styles of play, am I correct? I'm surprised this isn't some kind of unwritten rule in Suspect play, because it should be. Depending on what Characteristic you are testing, you could possibly get a different result, and therefore a different CRE, which could make or break your voting right. This could be a possible problem with the Suspect Testing process. Continuing.

The idea removing blissey is similiar to Obi's idea of adding in rayquaza for a suspect test, just to see what an obviously uber pokemon does to the metagame. Removing blissey would be more benificial in my opinion, as blissey is pretty close to uber, but clearly not, while rayquaza is WAY past the OU uber line.

Obi's said that before? I never knew that, huh. It would be beneficial by showing how a tried-and-true Uber Pokémon contends with OU, so possible Suspect Voters, as well as the Smogon community as a whole, can be reminded of what is OU and what is Uber.

So tl;dr i agree with KD24 and support the idea of doing a "blissey-less" ladder to see what people think. If people all like the metagame without blissey more and vote it Uber then i think the suspect test criteria seriously needs to be changed. If people like the metagame without blissey more but vote it OU then we know that there is evidence that people are not being as subjective as I (and im sure many others) believe some of the voters to be.

I agree that a Blissey-less ladder would be interesting. And I've already pointed out my thoughts on possible flaws with the Suspect Test process, so I'll end here.

Hope this helps.

 

[_Freak_]

I would however support something like this on a separate ladder as an "experiment" of sorts, as I think it would be pretty interesting, and like I said I agree that Blissey's absence would have the biggest effect on the OU metagame as it currently exists.

I think an "experiment ladder" would be intresting. For example we could bann Stealth Rock, Mence, Blissey and Scizor to see how the metagame reacts. It might not be competitive but I would prefer a more diverse metagame.

edit
@X-Act:thats why I call it "experiment" and not standart, but I guess I'm not the person who makes important decisions.

 

[X-Act]

I think an "experiment ladder" would be intresting. For example we could bann Stealth Rock, Mence, Blissey and Scizor to see how the metagame reacts. It might not be competitive but I would prefer a more diverse metagame.

This is exactly the point I wanted to discuss earlier. Smogon as a community really doesn't care about the diversity of the metagame; all it cares about is that it has no Pokemon that fulfil any of the three uber criteria. Banning Blissey or anything else just for diversity's sake is not Smogon's policy.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm not really sure whether or not I agree with this, honestly. While I can see the logic behind using Blissey to establish a baseline from which to assess the Defensive Characteristic, it holds the inherent issue that people may perceive that another, equally as defensive pokemon (when considering both ends of the spectrum, I guess) isn't as good simply because it doesn't live up to the standard set by Blissey.

And then of course, Blissey is an example of extremes rarely found in OU - its abysmal Def serves as a built-in check, as I honestly cannot think of any other pokemon that would be able to reliable take on all of the special threats that Blissey deals with.

All in all, the defensive characteristic is virtually impossible to prove, IMO. There are enough stat boosters, Trick users, and other strategies so that defensive pokemon can be played around, meaning that they will rarely "wall and stall out" a significant portion of the metagame...

 

[Werewolf]

Blissey doesn't deserves a Test, Smogon is going stupid now. First Mence deserves a test, now you're saying Blissey should be tested.

 

[Mike Legend]

Wow I love how you backed your post up with such convincing evidence. You've really swayed my views on the matter.

 

[ultimifier]

1)So what you're saying is that, in order to get a more "rounded" view of said Suspect, and in the process, get to know more about said Suspect, you need to use it in all different styles of play, am I correct? I'm surprised this isn't some kind of unwritten rule in Suspect play, because it should be. Depending on what Characteristic you are testing, you could possibly get a different result, and therefore a different CRE, which could make or break your voting right. This could be a possible problem with the Suspect Testing process. Continuing.

2)Obi's said that before? I never knew that, huh. It would be beneficial by showing how a tried-and-true Uber Pokémon contends with OU, so possible Suspect Voters, as well as the Smogon community as a whole, can be reminded of what is OU and what is Uber.

Hope this helps.

1) What im saying is that how people vote seems not to matter on the actual pokemon, but more on a metagame they prefer. What I mean is that someone like IPL (sorry to choose you just wanted to choose a prominent stall player) will have a lot more difficulty with salamence then a player like me who players mainly offensively.

I don't find salamence overwhelming against me because my team that I currently use has 3 members faster than a salamence, AND a salamence myself. I use a new mixmence in order to help with stall weaknesses. If i were to vote I would obviously vote OU for mence as he is no problem for me and i use him on my team to help me beat stall.

If someone who mainly plays stall finds that he has to throw a scarf latias/jirachi on every stall team to stop DD salamence from sweeping you, they would be much more inclined to vote salamence Uber because he is a hinderince to their success on the ladder.

I'm just trying to show that this ambiguous terms in the characteristics lead to a loophole where people can pretty much argue for OU and UBER for every single suspect which makes no sense as if the pokemon truly fits one of the "characteristics" the votes should never be close to 50/50.

2) Here is the thread in PR where this was previously mentioned. Maybe this should be included in the OP? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47979

 

[Ninjadead]

Let's do a suspect for Skarmory too...

 

[Alex_Dino]

1) What im saying is that how people vote seems not to matter on the actual pokemon, but more on a metagame they prefer. What I mean is that someone like IPL (sorry to choose you just wanted to choose a prominent stall player) will have a lot more difficulty with salamence then a player like me who players mainly offensively.

I don't find salamence overwhelming against me because my team that I currently use has 3 members faster than a salamence, AND a salamence myself. I use a new mixmence in order to help with stall weaknesses. If i were to vote I would obviously vote OU for mence as he is no problem for me and i use him on my team to help me beat stall.

If someone who mainly plays stall finds that he has to throw a scarf latias/jirachi on every stall team to stop DD salamence from sweeping you, they would be much more inclined to vote salamence Uber because he is a hinderince to their success on the ladder.

I'm just trying to show that this ambiguous terms in the characteristics lead to a loophole where people can pretty much argue for OU and UBER for every single suspect which makes no sense as if the pokemon truly fits one of the "characteristics" the votes should never be close to 50/50.

2) Here is the thread in PR where this was previously mentioned. Maybe this should be included in the OP? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47979

Thank you for pointing me to that post. I do agree with you totally. The ambiguous characteristics (or at least the ambiguous parts of it) are turning the OU/Uber metagame into, for lack of a better word, sloshy grey heap. The characteristics were good at the time. I say that they need to be defined even further, if we want to get anything productive out of any more suspect tests. This would prevent people from freely picking one side or the other and being able to support it.

EDIT: By freely, I mean picking a side due to outside factors not pertaining to the suspect test (favoritism).

 

[cantab]

This is exactly the point I wanted to discuss earlier. Smogon as a community really doesn't care about the diversity of the metagame; all it cares about is that it has no Pokemon that fulfil any of the three uber criteria. Banning Blissey or anything else just for diversity's sake is not Smogon's policy.

Smogon cares about the metagame, and we want it to be good. The Uber characteristics were created secondary to that goal of a good metagame. Diversity is generally regarded as a good thing - certainly, extreme lack of it would be bad. Diversity should naturally go along with balance. That is arguably why we have the tiers in the first place, to promote diversity.

There are clearly, however, no serious problems with diversity in the OU metagame. We have plenty of playstyles, and even Scizor's off more teams than it's on.

All in all, the defensive characteristic is virtually impossible to prove, IMO. There are enough stat boosters, Trick users, and other strategies so that defensive pokemon can be played around, meaning that they will rarely "wall and stall out" a significant portion of the metagame...

To check if that's the case would be simple - let Lugia and Giratina in. See if they actually are Uber under the defensive characteristic alone. (They'd probably be Uber under support or even offensive as well mind)

Let's do a suspect for Skarmory too...

Skarmory has nowhere near the defenses of Blissey - though it does have a load of resistances, and whirlwind to stop it being set up on.

 

[Werewolf]

If Blissey needs a Suspect Test, Breloom needs one too.
See how Breloom fits in all the criteria:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Subtitute + Focus Punch + Swords Dance + Spore!

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Subtitute + Leech Seed + Toxic Orb + Spore!

Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Spore + Leech Seed + Stun Spore and Toxic!


See, so give Breloom a test!