So basically against Stall Salamence is free to go in and out whenever it wants? Why do people still run Stall if it is so easily beaten? That's like running a baton pass team.
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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?
- Thread starter IcyMan28
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That is exactly the point. People run stall because they have come up with ways to 'check' Salamence, as unsuccessful as they may be. I already brought this up with you as to why stall has been replaced by semi-stall. Rarely anyone runs the common 6 wall teams anymore (obi stall if you wanna call it that). The change in the metagame adapted to Salamence, as it could clearly 6-0 the older stall team versions. Oh, and before you bring up more arguments about Mixmence being common and discovered back then, most Salamence were in fact DDMence in the past, when Garchomp was still allowed. Salamence didn't also have Outrage back then, which is a major difference between the past metagame and the current one.
Also, for your kind information, a -2 Salamence isn't deadweight, as it can still easily KO Forretress and Scizor, and still dent Skarmory relatively hard on stall. You seem to be forgetting that Outrage, Earthquake, and Brick Break also exist on Mixmence sets, so no a -2 Salamence isn't deadweight as you'd like to think.
I never said it was dead weight, I was mostly looking at the Draco Meteors. I don't know why you assumed I thought it was.
Anyway, so a style of play becomes unusable and Salamence is the sole reason? I really don't think it's fair that just because a style of play becomes unusable that a Pokemon should be banned, but I guess we've gone to the end. You've shown what you want to show and all I can say is yeah, it did dick stall and force it to change. I guess then all you can do is test it, but it's still manageable through means outside of stall. Stall is a marvel, but I'm unsure that it's worth banning a Pokemon just so that other people can play it.
Mence's effectiveness has a lot to do with how you play it. Its not like Scizor where you can just U-turn and Bullet Punch all day with impunity.
Mence's ability to Spam DM and kill stuff is amazing, but its also the #1 way to get Mence killed. You do NOT want to get to -2 unless you know you are maiming something. As ChouToshio mentioned Mence doesn't get to pick what it kills, but that is only a problem if its suicidal. In reality just Fire Blast off the bat (unless of course you expect ScarfTran, predict a little obviously) then decide whether you can finish them with BB/EQ/FB or want to hit the next target with DM. When Mence gets to -2 you automatically increase the number of things that can safely switch in and force it out.
After you've crippled a few things with other moves, DM and switch out. Then you come in again with ~20% HP left and act accordingly, either going for a kill or healing up. This is where Outrage comes in, when you know its over, you can get a last good solid hit in, not my move of choice though.
Mence can kill steels with Fire Blast, but this isn't much good when players automatically put their FB at -2 and then get forced out. While Mence is played hit and run, you actually want to keep him in as long as you can, LO and SS damage isn't fun, but its much better than the 25-31% you will take switching in and not doing any damage on that same turn.
A lot of Mences I face do little to nothing, but when well played are really quite dangerous. Just because DM is pure power doesn't mean you can throw it around, its can be almost as much of death sentence as using Outrage and should be treated as such.
Mence's ability to Spam DM and kill stuff is amazing, but its also the #1 way to get Mence killed. You do NOT want to get to -2 unless you know you are maiming something. As ChouToshio mentioned Mence doesn't get to pick what it kills, but that is only a problem if its suicidal. In reality just Fire Blast off the bat (unless of course you expect ScarfTran, predict a little obviously) then decide whether you can finish them with BB/EQ/FB or want to hit the next target with DM. When Mence gets to -2 you automatically increase the number of things that can safely switch in and force it out.
After you've crippled a few things with other moves, DM and switch out. Then you come in again with ~20% HP left and act accordingly, either going for a kill or healing up. This is where Outrage comes in, when you know its over, you can get a last good solid hit in, not my move of choice though.
Mence can kill steels with Fire Blast, but this isn't much good when players automatically put their FB at -2 and then get forced out. While Mence is played hit and run, you actually want to keep him in as long as you can, LO and SS damage isn't fun, but its much better than the 25-31% you will take switching in and not doing any damage on that same turn.
A lot of Mences I face do little to nothing, but when well played are really quite dangerous. Just because DM is pure power doesn't mean you can throw it around, its can be almost as much of death sentence as using Outrage and should be treated as such.
To be honest Twist, I'm kind of disappointed in you. I didn't think you were the closed-minded type who didn't thoroughly read other's posts or be quick to make groundless criticisms. I also didn't think you were the type to make sweeping generalizations, lumping poster's opinions together without actually reading the individual posts. :/
First off, it's totally unfair to suggest that the opinions of other are not based on actual battle. I have never stuck to usage stats or damage calcs for my arguments, and wrote out 2 clear examples in my earlier post (though it's quite clear you didn't read my posts clearly).
I was playing naive mixmence almost half a year before platinum came out (when you had to use Stone Edge in Outrage's place) and was one of (if not the first and only) one to use Outrage Naive Mixmence when Platinum did come out, with the exact moves and ev spread that it is still using. Hell, I remember the entire forum criticizing my decision to use Outrage over Stone Edge, or hell-- +speed mence was non-existant in general. Imagine how good that set was when no one was prepared for it! :naughty:
I piloted a team with that mence to the top 10 of the ladder, which is admittedly the highest I've gotten (never broke the top 5). You can check the RMT archives if you don't believe. I have used, and am still using that same mence set to this day, so don't tell me I have no real-time experience with it.
I feel a certain attachment to this set, because while I am not the one who invented naive mixmence, and had no part in designing the Ev Spread, I am the one who first decided to slap Outrage on it, which seems to be the version that is giving you all so much trouble. As a partial-parent to modern naive mixmence, I am well aware of it's amazing abilities, but also even more stingingly aware of it's serious flaws. Everything I posted about the set is true, and in my opinion, it is quickly losing it's effectiveness for the reasons I described. Certainly, I can't rely on it to accomplish the goals I used to depend on it for.
I may have been little involved with the meta for a while now, but for just this salamence set, I can guarantee there are few players who have piloted it as much as I have (and I've been playing it in the recent metagame too, where it really sucks compared to before!). I have hundred's of games worth of experience with that set, from watching nearly 6-0 (against very crappy players) to watching it fail to make any kills at all in games where I sorely needed it.
If you don't think sandstorm makes a big difference when fighting against leftovers users, you are the one who obviously needs more practice with this set. Against more balanced tanks like Snorlax, Vaporeon, Suicune and Celebi, depending on the EV spread, Leftovers could make all the difference in the world. Especially against Vaporeon, who between wish and Protect, gets extra turns to heal with lefties. Actually Vaporeon is the Mix-Wall breaker's worst nightmare, as it is literally impossible for any MixMence or MixNape set to kill it 1-on-1 without a Critical (due to Wish-Protect), though it can't switch into Draco Meteor/Outrage (it can beat mence if it switches into fire blast/earthquake). With Sand, Salamence can at least leave Vaporeon with huge damage, and has a better chance of killing it. But Mixmence v. Vaporeon outside of sand? lol you got no chance dude.
The point I made about sand being extremely useful for self-killing is also really true. I have been saved so many times from an Agiligross, Empoleon or Luke Sweep thanks to sand finishing off Mence before they had a chance to set up on locked Outrage. I have played Mixmence in hundreds of games, experiencing it before and after I got my Tyranitar to the field, and can say with certainty that Mixmence's power is totally different and truly augmented by sand-- but it also dies that much faster.
You do realize most of my post was reflected toward the other guy right, but I guess you're just as quick to jump the gun as you believe I am. The other guy had a ton of wrong battling quotes which I corrected, and for some odd reason you think I was talking to you.
As for your offensive team, yes I remember it. And from what I remember, it was always Salamence breaking holes in the opponent's defense that let your Infernape and Flygon clean up. I've played you more times than you may think, and every time I lost, it was always Salamence that created the opening, which falls under the support characteristic for me (aka without Salamence there was no way in hell you would have beat me, because nothing carries the destructive power that Salamence has). This is just from my personal experience against you, and as you said you have other logs that may show different, so I'll just leave it at that.
Oh really, Mixmence versus Vaporeon means that Mixmence has no chance? Last I checked, LO DM from the new Mixmence on-site does 65.8% - 77.7%. Add Leftovers, and Vaporeon has anywhere from 40% to 28% roughly. Guess how much Outrage does? 51.1% - 60.3% from the same on-site new Mixmence set. And considering that most your claims so far have involved 'Salamence being OU because it spams Draco Meteor so much', I'd say that Vaporeon is butftucked like most of the other OU Pokemon.
As a last thing to say to you, you haven't even been in the competitive scene for a while, which is a big point. You used Salamence in the past, congratulations. The metagame adapts and things do change. What was once considered OU can change to being considered Uber quite fast, as shown by Deoxys-S. So all your past history and logs, although somewhat useful, aren't remotely close to the opinions and logs of people that currently play, sorry that's just my opinion. It might come off as rude, but things do change, and you can rely on the past up to a point.
I'm so tired of reading some of these posts. Damn. You people act like every time a Salamence is in play, the following conditions are met:
- No Stealth Rock
- No Sandstorm
- 1+ Attack, 1+ Speed
- Salamence knows Dragon Dance, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Brick Break, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Roost
You're making what I like to call the convenient argument. Salamence is not a self sustaining sweeper. That is what sets itself apart from Garchomp, and any other Uber Pokemon. It relies on specific strengths that have specifics fallbacks in every single viable set it has. Ubers do not have this problem. Garchomp didn't have this problem. I don't recall any Uber needing team support to be damaging to the metagame, or did I miss something?
Salamence cannot balance our cheque books, make sandwiches, and sweep entire teams effortlessly by itself nearly every game the way an actual Uber will. I have not seen a single argument in this whole thread to the contrary. Only redundancies like how powerful Salamence is, and how it can OHKO to 2HKO every OU Pokemon. Christ, with the amount of convenient conditions you people are making in these instances, I'm sure it could.
I feel like I got hit by a truck. I'll make responses and quotes tomorrow or something.
- No Stealth Rock
- No Sandstorm
- 1+ Attack, 1+ Speed
- Salamence knows Dragon Dance, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Brick Break, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Roost
You're making what I like to call the convenient argument. Salamence is not a self sustaining sweeper. That is what sets itself apart from Garchomp, and any other Uber Pokemon. It relies on specific strengths that have specifics fallbacks in every single viable set it has. Ubers do not have this problem. Garchomp didn't have this problem. I don't recall any Uber needing team support to be damaging to the metagame, or did I miss something?
Salamence cannot balance our cheque books, make sandwiches, and sweep entire teams effortlessly by itself nearly every game the way an actual Uber will. I have not seen a single argument in this whole thread to the contrary. Only redundancies like how powerful Salamence is, and how it can OHKO to 2HKO every OU Pokemon. Christ, with the amount of convenient conditions you people are making in these instances, I'm sure it could.
I feel like I got hit by a truck. I'll make responses and quotes tomorrow or something.
TSPhoenix's post expressed my sentiments about Mixmence perfectly.
Chou clearly stated Vappy beats MixMence 1-on-1 via Wish/Protect stalling. So Outrage doesn't kill on turn two and Vappy gets healed back to 84-96%, allowing it to Wish again while Mence racks up LO damage. It's not hard to imagine Vappy getting the upper hand of this matchup especially if it keeps getting Lefties recovery. But we digress.
Chou clearly stated Vappy beats MixMence 1-on-1 via Wish/Protect stalling. So Outrage doesn't kill on turn two and Vappy gets healed back to 84-96%, allowing it to Wish again while Mence racks up LO damage. It's not hard to imagine Vappy getting the upper hand of this matchup especially if it keeps getting Lefties recovery. But we digress.
yesterday i was going to post a responce but in the end i didn't. I feel exactly the same way.
And actually you missed something. Those people are also assuming that everything switches in a Mence attack . Those are the scenario's they are assuming(and is 2koed .)
For example ,their is no mention of the fact that Mence can 2HKO something but in fact it may fail to do so because it is koed first. The circumstances are what is important in that case.
In summury Outrage, can allow a lot of things to reliably revenge kill it. Earthquake and Fireblast allows you to switch something in , and so may also DD do. Considering It's frailty and LO damage Mence better not take a hit or be paralyzed.
As for a Mix Mence using DM and outrage , well that could give your opponent some free turns.
Indeed , i say that under specific circumstances all of the following can handle mence or do something against it (and the opposite can also happen) , Swampert , Scizor ,Creselia , Gliscor, Gyarados,Vaporeon, Slowbro, Porygon 2 , Empoleon with focus sash, Lucario, not often but it may be able to do something Heatran, Infernape , Scizor, Bronzong , Weavile ,Piloswine, Donphan, Hypowdon, Azelf , even Foretress , and i am unsure whether a Blissey can survive to thunder wave back. Hell even a Tyranintar with a choice scarf can beat +speed Salamence without a DD.
In any case , what is important is not imagining convenient circumstances in which a pokemon can beat each other one , but analyzing the possible circumstances and not the ones we find convenient. The above examples are not meant to demonstrate whether they can always reliably beat any mence set , or the opposite. Is just a demonstration of examples that don't give us relevant answers , and i think some people have done the same (saying that Mence can 2HKO a lot of things , presenting examples without them really being very relevant , just convenient for their argument.)
This is actually one of the reasons I support the test; because this kind of convenience-selection is common on both sides of the argument. For instance:
Let's make some generous assumptions about Sandstorm: If Tyranitar or Hippowdon is involved in the battle, it is assumed Sandstorm is up. We will also assume that Rain Dance is not used on either Salamence's team or the opponent's team, which is a slight bias towards Sandstorm being up, but I couldn't be bothered calculating it specifically.
Then, the probability of Sandstorm being up in a given battle featuring Salamence is given by:
P(SS) = P(Tyranitar is a teammate) + [P(Tyranitar is an opponent)+P(Hippowdon is an opponent)]*P(Tyranitar is not a teammate).
We assume here that Hippowdon and Tyranitar are not used on the same team (since that is very rare), and we disregard the probability of Hippowdon and Mence being teammates because it's so small it doesn't make any difference.
Now, P(Tyranitar is a teammate) = 22.91%. The P(TTar opponent) and P(Hippowdon opponent) will be taken as their straight usage rate, so 19.39% and 4.57% respectively (which is biased slightly in favour of sandstorm being up, but only a tiny amount).
So the overall approximate chance that Sandstorm is up with Salamence in the battle is 41.38%; the true percentage is a bit lower than that as the assumptions have been in favour of Sandstorm. That means that in roughly 60% of games featuring Salamence, there is NO sandstorm. And yet the Mence-for-OU team argue with the assumption that Sandstorm is up.
The problem, I feel, is that the Uber Clauses are not precise enough to serve as an accurate guideline for making accurate judgements. Both the "Common battling conditions", and the "significant amount of an opponent's team" and other terms like that are extremely vague, and don't form effective criteria.
I can try to repeat a similar weighted stats calculation for Stealth Rock, but it's a bit harder, as you have to make assumptions as to how much of the game Rapid Spin keeps Rocks off the field, how much Taunt/Sleep leads prevent Rocks in the first place, etc. so it's much less precise.
I can also increase the accuracy of the Sandstorm calculations, but it's more calculations that I care to do, since it will make only a small amount of difference in favour of non-Sandstorm.
If you want to direct comments at 1 person, you should refrain from the phrase "you guys." Making generalities and lumping people together is not a great way of demonstrating attention to the discussion.
First of all, you're right that I haven't been playing nearly intensively as in the past (and consequentially, apologize for my memory being fuzzy on who I have/have not battled and in what frequency).
But, you're wrong that I haven't been playing. I have been playing quite a lot recently-- I just haven't been winning. :D Playing "just for fun" if you want to call it that.
I haven't been doing any team building, just re-hashing old teams (a bit of evs here, nature there, a move or two, replace one tyranitar set for another . . . that kinda thing), and consequently haven't been doing well at all, but I HAVE been playing. And, I have been using this mixmence-- so I know how this particular set performs in the meta.
Honestly, things haven't changed that much in terms of the meta itself. If anything, the diversity of the metagame dropped drastically, and the sets are even easier to predict.
The big difference I noticed, is that the overall skill level of the players is way higher. At least in Salamence's case, the opponents handle him a lot better. When I first ran the team, the opposing players always tried so hard to "counter" salamence, and as you have mentioned, ended up losing pokemon that were vital in having a chance to stop my late game Scizor/Flygon sweep.
Now though, a lot more players use smart switches and death fodder to make my Salamence plays much less effective than they used to be. Of course, their is the simple fact that a metagame full of players used to Naive Mixmence makes the set much less effective (yeah, I know that's a "duh").
I will leave it at this: I think if I were to seriously make a new offensive team, Naive Mixmence would not be on it.
Also, just to illustrate point about Salamence v. Vaporeon:
Keep in mind, this is not "Vaporeon switches into Mence's Draco Meteor," that's just dumb. This is Vaporeon v. Salamence 1 v. 1
No Sandstorm, No SR, just mano e mano
Salamence used Draco Meteor! ~71% (is near max damage)
Salamence's Sp.ATK -2
Salamence lost 10% of its health
Vaporeon used wish!
Vaporeon recovered with leftovers
Salamence: 90% -2 Sp.ATK
Vaporeon: 36%
Vaporeon used Protect!
Salamence used Outrage!
It Missed!
Vaporeon's Wish came true!
Vapreon recovered with leftovers
Salamence: 90% -2 Sp.ATK
Vaporon: 92%
Salamence used Outrage! ~57% (Max Damage)
Salamence lost 10% of it's health
Vaporeon used Wish!
Vaporeon recovered with Leftovers
Salamence: 80% -2 Sp.ATK Locked into Outrage
Vaporeon: 41%
Note: At this point, feel free to switch to Empoleon/etc. passing wish and setting up on Outrage if you want. Otherwise, just keep going with vappy.
Vaporeon used Protect!
Salamence used Outrage!
It missed!
Vaporeon's Wish came true!
Vapreon recovered with leftovers
Salamence: 70% -2 Sp.ATK locked into Outrage
Vaporeon: 97%
. . . etc. As you can see, barring a crit, Salamence isn't breaking through vappy. Work in Outrage's confusion and the fact that it's easy set up bait if all it does is keep spamming Outrage, and you can see that mixmence is never getting the better of vappy unless vappy switches into an Outrage/Draco Meteor. I would never switch a pokemon as valuable/awesome as vappy into mence unless I was 95%+ sure of fire blast/earthquake.
This is actually false. Although some Ubers (like Dialga, for example) are excellent sweepers on their own, other ones like Latios or Rayquaza certainly are not.
Latios and Rayquaza, in fact, although much more powerful than their "OU counterparts" (Latias and Salamence respectively) cannot be thrown in the fray mindlessly. Assuming the same common battle conditions and common opponents we do for Latias and Salamence, if you play your Latios or Rayquaza recklessly, you are just going to end up being stopped dead in your tracks by Blissey (the former) or Scizor/Scarfrachi (the latter - hell, 95 base speed makes the task even easier regardless of Extremespeed, thanks to those Steels). But we all know that, in regard to Latios, once Blissey is out of the way, it is a nightmare to face, since, differently from her sister, he has the power to break Scizor and Tyranitar (and everything else, really); and, in regard to Rayquaza, you just have to pair it with Magnezone, take out the pesky Steel, and you have a clean sweep in your hands.
Now, as I said, Rayquaza and Latios are obviously more powerful than Salamence and Latias. But they do require support to make a flat-out sweep Uber-style. So do not use the "it needs support to sweep" argument in order to attack the "pro-test side". We all know that the type of support required to make a Salamence sweep is much more reliable and consistent than, say, the one required for a Lucario (you cannot really trap a RestTalk Gyara, for example) or for an Empoleon (when you have not only to lay Toxic Spikes, but also to take care of extra checks like LAtias and scarfers). If Salamence is commonly agreed upon for being capable to sweep the opposition with reliable and consistent support, it is at least worth a Suspect Test. Not directly a ban, but certainly a test.
I'd also like to make another example, this time about UU. If you take suspects like Raikou or Gallade, it is quite apparent that they are not going to sweep if you send them out mindlessly. However, after you managed to punch holes into the opposition with an Honchkrow (a consistent task, I should say, given the beastly nature of the Don bird) and you laid a layer or 2 of Spikes, they will inevitably sweep. Again, it is not the stand-alone sweeping capability which makes them suspect-worthy. It is the ease and reliability with which the conditions for a sweep are created which makes them so.
Toxic? Since most WishProtect Vappy runs Toxic on the moveset.
The same thing can be said about Togekiss. No SR, one on one, i almost always manage to survive Outrages+Draco Meteors and flinchhax Salamence to death(against Togekiss it's better to spam Outrage, because Draco Meteor isn't going to do that much, it's only a chance for Togekiss to throw a Thunder Wave on Salamence)
Wow, because providing random one on one examples is a good way to prove a Pokemon isn't Uber? That's a farce if I ever saw one. Obviously, we need to make Rayquaza OU, because my Choice Scarf HP Ice Gengar is totally capable of tackling him mano el mano. You've also missed what happens if that was a DDMence. You switch in freely on Dragon Dance, expecting a Mixmence's Fire Blast, and then have to face up to the fact you got smacked by a 52.7% - 62.1% Earthquake. Each time you can protect, Mence can just Dragon Dance one more time. What you've done, is provide one single check to one single set, and stated that apparently, this is enough to make Salamence an OU Pokemon, because that set isn't worth it, and therefore people should never ever use it, which means we can ignore it. Well, hell, I can do that to the vast majority of Uber Pokemon. Don't worry guys, Kyogre isn't Uber, it's set which runs Surf/Water Spout/Thunderbolt/Calm Mind is countered by Quagsire! And there's no point worrying about the other sets, because I don't think they're as good as this one!
Seriously, what on earth did you add to this argument at all, Chou?
Seriously, what on earth did you add to this argument at all, Chou?
Note: Mix-Wall Breaker as in MixMenceChou said:
Then ToF shows that Vaporeon can be dealt with if it switches into Salamence. Then...
Chou said:
Followed by things from the viewpoint of where Vaporeon didn't switch in. It's almost as if you see an argument, forget to read everything prior, and then attempt to prove you are a master of Pokemon. All Chou did was show that Vaporeon can beat Salamence 1v1 in retaliation to ToF saying that it lost 1v1.
I'm not gonna fucking slot a Scizor on my team to revenge-kill every Salamence out there. I'm not limiting myself to using a Pokemon that I think isn't as good as its usage statistics show. So far, every single one of you have brought up 'revenge-killing' as a viable way of dealing with Salamence. I'm sorry, that's not the way Pokemon is suppose to be played, and it leaves you susceptible to a shitload of other team types that will demolish your team. And I'd like for you to name one other Pokemon that demands as much attention as Salamence. Gengar, nope sorry Blissey will beat it. Lucario, oh no Gyarados or Rotom can easily beat it. Salamence, oh shit I don't know what the fuck its gonna do, so lets hope for the best and send out some bulky tank. You stated that "many Pokemon are capable of 6-0'ing you on a mistake." Well no shit Sherlock, you make an error of course you're gonna pay for it. The difference with Salamence is that it doesn't need a 'mistake' for it to heavily damage any switch-in, because its moves are that powerful.
For the record, Swampert is not a counter to Salamence. Draco Meteor followed by Outrage is a kill, and then you're free to 'revenge-kill' or whatever.
Oh, you hate Machamp do you? Well who said a Ghost type is a counter to Machamp? Payback does a shitload to Rotom, and if Machamp is running Guts, then you have no chance. You can run stuff like Gliscor or Gyarados too you know that can deal with Machamp, you're not limited to running a Ghost. With Salamence, it seems like I have to run a Scizor, because if I don't, I won't be able to revenge it after it kills something.
The only answers you mention have to do with revenge-killing. And, just for your kind information, Salamence can switch into a ton of shit after it kills something and Roost off the damage. Any Spiker is basically a free turn for Salamence to do whatever. Stall is Salamence's best friend, and yes stall is still very common, giving Salamence free switch-ins often to Roost and continue the destruction. Yes, this is Pokemon. Do you even fucking battle to realize what happens usually against Salamence? Against stall, Salamence dominates. Against offense, Salamence is brought in on something it can kill easily. Salamence kills something, or severely weakens something because its moves are overpowered. The opponent brings in Scizor to hopefully revenge-it after Salamence takes enough LO damage, or if its locked into Outrage.
Reading some of your posts makes me think that half of the people making arguments don't battle or are so content using the same fucking Pokemon that they don't realize the effects it has on the metagame. Why do you think Scizor is used so often? Yeah, Bullet Punch hurts a lot of stuff, but it revenges Salamence, which is probably the most important. Yes, I think this fact warrents Salamence to have a suspect test.
Shed Shell Scizor? Are you out of your fucking mind. How many things in OU use Shed Shell? One, Skarmory, and even that's starting to dwindle because of all this semi-stall craze. Considering how often Scizor Bullet Punches, I don't think its hard at all to trap it using Zone and easily killing it. How the hell is Magnezone gonna remove Lucario? Once again, its stupid points like this that really discredit you and your arguments, unfortunately. Scarf Magnezone does exist, and its good at what it does, removing virtually all steels minus like EQ Bronzong and Metagross.
Fine, who said Salamence needs Magnezone for anything? Salamence can 2HKO everything Magnezone removes anyway. Skarmory, Forretress, and Scizor all gone. Lucario, removed easily thanks to Intimidate. Bronzong, Metagross, all 2HKO'd on the switch. Salamence doesn't need Magnezone support to kill stuff. If anything, only DDMence enjoys Magnezone support because it uses an overpowered Outrage often. Mixmence needs nothing.
Lol again.
Oh, so something that meets the offensive characteristic can't meet the support characteristic? Really? First off, I don't know what Pokemon you're talking about that can take the damage Salamence dishes out. Basically everything in OU is 2HKO'd by Mixmence, that should suffice to discredit that point of yours. But lets say that Salamence doesn't meet the offensive characteristic. Why then would the dual dragon strategy be so successsful? During the Latias suspect test, I believe TAY didn't lose once using Salamence to weaken whatever and then letting Latias clean up. Point being, Salamence can be played as a suicide mon, taking out whatever it can, and then letting something that is almost as powerful clean up. That is exactly what the support characteristic entails, all due to the destructive power of Salamence.
Last I checked, the only Jirachi giving Salamence problems is the Scarf version, which is dealt with by Magnezone. Salamence can speed tie all other Jirachi variants. Next, Magnezone often carries HP Fire, and Scizor is often Banded, so yes Magnezone will win in almost every case. Heatran will win, as will Metagross usually (barring some Magnet Rise set). Shed Shell isn't used on anything other than Skarmory as I pointed out (rarely on Forretress).
Four move syndrome my ass. Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Brick Break/Outrage, Roost is good enough to wreck the entire OU tier. If you're running a suicidal 'do whatever damage you can' Mence, you can slot Earthquake over Roost. For one thing, all Salamence carry a fire move, whether it be Mixmence or DDMence, so don't give me that. Secondly, Blissey is 2HKO'd by Brick Break with the appropriate EV spread, so wrong again. Being locked into Outrage means Scizor can come and clean up, which could also be a dead Scizor if the user packs Magnezone. The possibilities that you present for Salamence are just as plausable for the Pokemon you bring in to deal with a locked Salamence. Eye for an eye.
And one mistake guessing what kind of Salamence it is early game couldcost you the game, depending on you're switch-in. Your 'counter' could take heavy damage that prevents it from walling something else on the Salamence-user's team.
Scizor can't kill Salamence one on one, why do all of you believe this. Salamence always has a fire move lol. Tyranitar has to go out of its way and run a Scarf. Latias and Heatran, fine, I'll give you.
As for your Gengar comment, once again your battling information is incorrect. 81.2% - 96% to 252 HP, 252 Sp.Def Careful Tyranitar. It can survive with anywhere from 19% to 4%, which factoring in Stealth Rock is not a guaranteed kill. But this doesn't matter in reference to Salamence.
Clearly you didn't do a good job of trying to prove me wrong.
Bullshit. Pure bullshit. Wobbuffet wasn't heavily used when it was allowed on the standard ladder, and it was clearly voted uber by the community. If Rayquaza performance is subpar to what players expect, it won't be used as heavily obviously. Rayquaza is also frail, just like Salamence, so I'm sure people will find reason not to use it.
As I told the other guy that questioned this, Salamence wanted to be a suspect a while ago, but the order of operations for suspects didn't include Salamence, so we proceeded with the rest of the suspects first. When Salamence got Outrage, battlers brought up opinions of its possible brokenness. That is the reason for the '8 month lag' or whatever.
I will attempt to add theory to this argument. I will use reachzero's argument to do this as his was noted to be the best so far. His argument is:
Pokemon is game that pits 6 Pokemon vs 6 opposing Pokemon. Battles are fought out by carrying out a strategy that your team of 6 employs to help carry out. The stronger the team, the more likely a player is to execute their strategy. Whether that strategy allows you to win or lose depends on the strategy. (e.g Successfully setting up a "Stall scenario" will lead to win more often than not while successfully setting up a strategy around Shedinja will likely fail.) A successful team executing a successful strategy lead by a skilled battler should win more than a player that does not meet one or more of these characteristics. However, we can accept that there is no perfect play (I use the word "play" to represent a combination of battler/team/strategy) and that the "hax" in the game can cause a successful play to lose against a not-so successful play. Successful plays should win more often than not in a healthy metagame.
In a healthy metagame, successful plays should be what wins and unsuccessful plays should be what lose. The more successful the play, the more success the player should experience. Successful plays should also be possible by having as many options as possible while sticking to competitively applicable Pokemon/Sets/Strategies. (e.g. #1 A team consisting of OU's top 10 Pokemon using the same or similar standard sets executing the same or similar strategy does not represent a healthy metagame. e.g #2 A team of some of OU's top 10 and some of OU's top 20 using various sets that are still competitively viable executing various competitively viable strategies should still be able to result in successful plays.)
Smogon promotes a healthy metagames.
Salamence hurts the metagame and possibly creates an unhealthy one and creates situations successful plays become unsuccessful plays and vice-versa. Salamence turns a Pokemon match into a guessing game, punishing players who predict incorrectly. Salamence, although capable of only running one set in any giving game, has so many competitively viable Sets, Spreads, and Moves that his existence in a match threatens any giving play. Although a player may have been executing a successful play, it is possible for Salamence to come into the game and turn the opposing successful play into a now losing play. The play may be considered successful but it is now typically losing and it turns out that it loses only when Salamence is in the picture. Also, a losing or unsuccessful play may become successful once Salamence does his intended job. This creates a situation where Salamence and his existence independently create successful plays and any play without Salamence or one that is unprepared for Salamence becomes unsuccessful or one that loses. (However, is is possible for plays to be successful without Salamence but Salamence greatly influences and limits this possibility.)
Because Salamence is so threatening, players must prepare and/or use him in order to create successful plays. Salamence has the capability to choose who and what counters him based on what set he runs. (e.g #1 Intimidate, defensive stats, Roost, and Dragon Dance allow Salamence to stat up and comfortably survive on Pokemon who might possibly threaten an Offensive Salamence. e.g #2 Powerful Physical attacks allow Salamence to threaten any switch in that may not resist Salamence's attack or be physically bulky. e.g #3 Powerful Special attacks allow Salamence to threaten any switch in that may not resist Salamence's attack or be specially bulky. e.g. #4 Salamence's Mixed set threatens anything slower than him after a +1 speed boost.) This effectively forces an opponent of Salamence into a guessing game where their whole play may become hindered or ineffective by the existence of Salemence in any given game.
Because of all of this, there are few ways to prepare for Salaemnce and this limits the options for successful plays. Forcing players to use a specific move, Pokemon, or item severally limits competitively viable Sets/Pokemon/Strategies. Pokemon who have access to neutral or Super Effective Priority attacks against Salamence and Pokemon of 100+ base speed holding a Choice Scarf are almost needed to stop Salamence from shifting the state of a play. Although this means Salamence will now not be as threatening, he has now created a metagame where the options are severaly limited. This is now an unhealthy metagame because of Salamence.
Basically, Salamence either punishes what would have been successful plays or successful plays are now executed by taking the necessary precautions to stop him but this severally limits a players options to create successful plays. Smogon should create a metagame where options for successful plays are available so long as plays are made using competitively viable Pokemon/Teams/Sets.
... I tried. I have school tomorrow. Good night X_X
This is the set we are talking about:
Salamence
Naive
@Life Orb
16 ATK 240 Sp.ATK 252 Speed
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake / Brickbreak
-Fire Blast / Flamethrower
So obviously, it can't roost. My last few posts have been specifically about this set, because of many posters complaints (particularly Twist of Fate seems bent on the destructive power of this set) about mixmence.
Whether you go with +Speed or not though, Mixmence's true potential is brought out by its capacity to combine Outrage with Draco Meteor to cover the game in terms of Special/Physical split, hammering pokes like Gliscor or Blissey.
However, you need to cover the metagame in terms of typing too, which Draco Meteor + Outrage obviously doesn't do anything about. People are complaining about how hard Mixmence hits the metagame, but obviously it can't do that without a special fire attack and a physical fighting/ground attack. Simply put, Mixmence can't accomplish that capacity without filling its move slots.
ie. No Roost.
Honestly, most OU pokes can deal salamence a lot more damage than it can roost off. Furthermore even if the opponent is switching, most of the time Salamence would rather punish those switches by blasting the attackers than trying to roost.
Roost can be effective (with surprise), but overall mixmence performs better in the longrun without it.
One thing I think a lot of posters fail to recognize is that overall, people are playing to win, not just to piss off their opponent. Sure you could use Hypnosis Gengar to annoy a lot of players, if thats how you get your kicks-- but that won't take you up the ladder, which is what most players are trying to achieve. The same goes for Roost Mixmence, it can piss people off when it manages to work well, but in the long run it's not as effective. Sure you could devote your team to covering its lack of coverage, but I personally wouldn't want to give either Skarmory or Tyranitar a free turn to do whatever they want. The same goes for things like super bulky roost + dd mence or Roost + toxic mence. They could be effective in a given game, but consistantly climbing the ladder with those sets is hard, especially when you get to the point where you're facing the top players repetitively.
I think your restatement of reachzero's argument is probably the most cogent sally from the anti-Salamence side. However, it relies on the idea that Salamence is a user-friendly Pokemon which can achieve win conditions if it is inserted into any old team by a minimally competent battler with a weak strategy.
Salamence is powerful in the right hands. It requires finesse and support to handle correctly. The suspect characteristics do not assume a seasoned trainer as part of "common battle conditions", unless I am sorely mistaken. YacheChomp is decidedly Uber because it has an idiot-proof instruction manual consisting of a few core steps with a handful of simple conditionals governing their use. Barring hax or inability to follow instructions, YacheChomp achieves win conditions on an alarming scale.
I'm not using Chomp as a comparison to Mence. I'm using Chomp to illustrate the difference between a pain in the ass and a suspect candidate. Chomp is the shining example of a suspect. Mence is not.
Spamming Draco Meteor and Fire Blast do not guarantee wins against any opponent who is familiar with Salamence (with all the theorymon in this thread, I still have not seen anything solid to support the Spamamence argument). Intimidate is very useful, but still conditional, and it is not a permanent boost to Mence's defense stat. Stealth rock is up, and if it's not, it's because significant support is being provided to Salamence.
If you want to win with Mence, you don't just print out the instruction sheet. You learn Mence's weaknesses and strengths, you use prediction and psychology, and you execute a team-wide strategy. Mence is subject to the same sort of prediction errors which make it such a threat to others: one wrong guess about what's switching in or what its opponent is packing, and its effectiveness is nullified.
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I believe that rocks deserve even more mention due to their persistent effect with a single turn of use. It can't be said enough: Stealth Rock gives the greatest return on investment of any indirect move in the game, and it is a terrible threat to anything with at least 2x weakness.
You can say that tossing a spinner on the team takes care of that. I disagree. I love rapid spinning. One of my best pre-RNG breeds in Pearl was a spinner Tentacruel which took twelve generations to get just right. I devour warstories with spinners to see how its use has evolved. Believe me, spinning is not easy. Not all rockers are suicide leads - or even in the lead slot at all, though that's usually the case - with Swampert being the go-to example. If a trainer wants to use rocks to advantage, she will not only get them up, but ensure that they will remain a threat throughout the match. Whether that means using a spinblocker (and remember, Protect is just as handy as Ghost typing), using a tank rocker which has the survivability to set up rocks again after a spinner is dealt with, or having multiple rockers on a team (two usually suffice, and many rock-laying sets fill other roles as well), in order of general usefulness. If the trainer is not supporting her entry hazards, then those entry hazards are not going to assist her strategy anyway.
Stealth rock is not around just because of Salamence. Neither are steels (considering they're resistant to every entry hazard, as well as the other type advantages). I'd love to see a suspect test just to track the change in how rocks are laid.
Ulevo, it seems to me that you are simply trying to strawman ToF arguments solely for the purpose of defending yours. I read your posts carefully, and nowhere I found a concrete answer to the point ToF, Reachzero and others have made: Salamence is the only Pokémon in OU which does not have safe switch-ins.
Now, before you start bullshitting me with silly Infernape, Gengar or Lucario examples, I'll lay out some decisive arguments for them. They have safe switch-ins, you cannot deny it. As ToF said, Blissey walls Gengar most times with little effort, Gyarados is a safe switch-in to Lucario and Latias can switch into Infernape with little consequences. Maybe you could answer "But Gengar can Sub Punch! But Lucario can use HP Electric/Thunderpunch! But Infernape Can use U-turn!". I know it, as well as probably everyone in the thread (this is also a reference to the way you make people like ToF look like they don't know what they are talking about when they obviously do, but I digress). However, these are minor options to the aforementioned Pokémon. SubPunch Gengar, for example, is considerably weaker than the standard LO version, especially if the opponent lacks a Blissey. The same holds true for Infernape and Lucario.
This, however, is false in the case of Salamence. His two main sets, Dragon Dance and Mixmence, are equally viable, and they are not thought for beating each other counters (like, for example, Chainchomp). They get pretty much the same amount of usage, and there is no Pokémon which can switch safely into both sets. This isn't a dilemma like SD Luke vs Specsluke, where I can say: "Whatever, let's send in Gyarados". I challenge you to find a Pokémon which can fit in a "Whatever, let's send in X" in regards to Salamence. Cresselia, that's it. Too bad Cresselia is so shitty against everything else in OU (hence why she fell in UU).
No other Pokémon in OU has the same element of trouble held by Salamence when he enters the fray, regardless of the team (unless you have Ice Shard on almost every member of your team, I guess). And the amount of Pokémon Salamence is able to force out in OU is very high too. Most importantly, there is no Pokémon in OU which can check Salamence with the same reliability with which Vaporeon checks Gyarados, or Swampert checks Tyranitar. Or, hell, Blissey checks Latios. This "uncertainty" value alone is enough to me to warrant a test (emphasis on the word "test")
Oh, and let me add a personal note. Regardless of whether you are right or wrong in your posts, the way you acted towards others (ToF in particular) is very disrespectful. They are not noobs which talk about Salamence out of sheer theorymon. They have a great deal of experience with him (and with the game in general), and calling them "narrow sighted hard ass" when they say Shed Shell Scizor is almost preposterous (which actually is - without the power of CB or LO you cannot even check decently Salamence itself) makes YOU looking bad.
Now, before you start bullshitting me with silly Infernape, Gengar or Lucario examples, I'll lay out some decisive arguments for them. They have safe switch-ins, you cannot deny it. As ToF said, Blissey walls Gengar most times with little effort, Gyarados is a safe switch-in to Lucario and Latias can switch into Infernape with little consequences. Maybe you could answer "But Gengar can Sub Punch! But Lucario can use HP Electric/Thunderpunch! But Infernape Can use U-turn!". I know it, as well as probably everyone in the thread (this is also a reference to the way you make people like ToF look like they don't know what they are talking about when they obviously do, but I digress). However, these are minor options to the aforementioned Pokémon. SubPunch Gengar, for example, is considerably weaker than the standard LO version, especially if the opponent lacks a Blissey. The same holds true for Infernape and Lucario.
This, however, is false in the case of Salamence. His two main sets, Dragon Dance and Mixmence, are equally viable, and they are not thought for beating each other counters (like, for example, Chainchomp). They get pretty much the same amount of usage, and there is no Pokémon which can switch safely into both sets. This isn't a dilemma like SD Luke vs Specsluke, where I can say: "Whatever, let's send in Gyarados". I challenge you to find a Pokémon which can fit in a "Whatever, let's send in X" in regards to Salamence. Cresselia, that's it. Too bad Cresselia is so shitty against everything else in OU (hence why she fell in UU).
No other Pokémon in OU has the same element of trouble held by Salamence when he enters the fray, regardless of the team (unless you have Ice Shard on almost every member of your team, I guess). And the amount of Pokémon Salamence is able to force out in OU is very high too. Most importantly, there is no Pokémon in OU which can check Salamence with the same reliability with which Vaporeon checks Gyarados, or Swampert checks Tyranitar. Or, hell, Blissey checks Latios. This "uncertainty" value alone is enough to me to warrant a test (emphasis on the word "test")
Oh, and let me add a personal note. Regardless of whether you are right or wrong in your posts, the way you acted towards others (ToF in particular) is very disrespectful. They are not noobs which talk about Salamence out of sheer theorymon. They have a great deal of experience with him (and with the game in general), and calling them "narrow sighted hard ass" when they say Shed Shell Scizor is almost preposterous (which actually is - without the power of CB or LO you cannot even check decently Salamence itself) makes YOU looking bad.
Zarator, the facts you are laying out are true, but:
-"It has two equally viable sets"
-"It has no completely reliable switch ins"
Those are true-- but honestly, so what? Neither of those sounds remotely convincing, especially in the context of the DP metagame.
It has multiple viable sets-- I mean really? REALLY?? When Latias is running around with specs, scarf, calm mind, wish support, screens, etc., Or Jirachi is running around with scarf, or faking a scarf while carrying a berry, etc. etc. Realistically speaking, there are pokemon with much more diverse movesets than Salamence in the metagae.
It has no completely reliable switch ins. Again-- so what? You are avoiding wording it this way but what you are saying is: There's nothing that near-perfectly counters Salamence. Why are you avoiding saying it this way? Because it is wide common sense that "counters" are considered an out-dated way of thinking/judging pokemon in 4th gen.
Do you know why it's such a bad argument?
Yes Gengar is stopped in its tracks by blissey. Yes, Gyarados is screwed by Vaporeon or Celebi, Infernape by Latias, Lucario by Gliscor, and Tyranitar isn't getting far with Machamp around.
But guess what? Not every team is going to have a Blissey, a Vaporeon, a Latias, Gliscor and a Machamp. Besides, if I were to do that, I got nothing to counter threat z right now.
The notion of there being "no realiable counter" is pointless when every team is going to have to deal with threats through checks anyway, because it's impossible to carry the "reliable counter" to everything. :/ That's the whole reason why the "counters" methodology was thrown out the window. Not to mention that just because there is a perfect counter doesn't mean it's necessarily good (or good for your team). What's the point in having a P-2 to counter Gyara if it can't do anything to the rest of your opponent's team and ends up set up fodder for dd ttar? How much use is Vappy going to be if they set Breloom up on it every time you use it to counter Gyara?
This game isn't played by using 1 pokemon against the metagame-- it's played by 1 team versus 1 team. On a given team, I might not have a perfect counter to Salamence, but if I also don't have one for Suicune, Machamp or ScarfJirachi-- guess what, beating those pokes is going to be more or less just as tough. Latias might always beat Mixape, but if I don't have a Latias on my team, that really doesn't do me any good when I'm staring down the raging monkey.
The point is that in order to win, you're going to have to beat pokemon without counters, but with innovation, smart play, and luck-- Salamence is no different in that way than any other pokemon you can't include a counter for. Sure Salamence is a threat to every team-- but then so are many other pokemon, and the way a person builds a team could result in it having even bigger problems against other things, like Suicune, Jolteon or Flygon. You just can't make it impervious to everything.
-"It has two equally viable sets"
-"It has no completely reliable switch ins"
Those are true-- but honestly, so what? Neither of those sounds remotely convincing, especially in the context of the DP metagame.
It has multiple viable sets-- I mean really? REALLY?? When Latias is running around with specs, scarf, calm mind, wish support, screens, etc., Or Jirachi is running around with scarf, or faking a scarf while carrying a berry, etc. etc. Realistically speaking, there are pokemon with much more diverse movesets than Salamence in the metagae.
It has no completely reliable switch ins. Again-- so what? You are avoiding wording it this way but what you are saying is: There's nothing that near-perfectly counters Salamence. Why are you avoiding saying it this way? Because it is wide common sense that "counters" are considered an out-dated way of thinking/judging pokemon in 4th gen.
Do you know why it's such a bad argument?
Yes Gengar is stopped in its tracks by blissey. Yes, Gyarados is screwed by Vaporeon or Celebi, Infernape by Latias, Lucario by Gliscor, and Tyranitar isn't getting far with Machamp around.
But guess what? Not every team is going to have a Blissey, a Vaporeon, a Latias, Gliscor and a Machamp. Besides, if I were to do that, I got nothing to counter threat z right now.
The notion of there being "no realiable counter" is pointless when every team is going to have to deal with threats through checks anyway, because it's impossible to carry the "reliable counter" to everything. :/ That's the whole reason why the "counters" methodology was thrown out the window. Not to mention that just because there is a perfect counter doesn't mean it's necessarily good (or good for your team). What's the point in having a P-2 to counter Gyara if it can't do anything to the rest of your opponent's team and ends up set up fodder for dd ttar? How much use is Vappy going to be if they set Breloom up on it every time you use it to counter Gyara?
This game isn't played by using 1 pokemon against the metagame-- it's played by 1 team versus 1 team. On a given team, I might not have a perfect counter to Salamence, but if I also don't have one for Suicune, Machamp or ScarfJirachi-- guess what, beating those pokes is going to be more or less just as tough. Latias might always beat Mixape, but if I don't have a Latias on my team, that really doesn't do me any good when I'm staring down the raging monkey.
The point is that in order to win, you're going to have to beat pokemon without counters, but with innovation, smart play, and luck-- Salamence is no different in that way than any other pokemon you can't include a counter for. Sure Salamence is a threat to every team-- but then so are many other pokemon, and the way a person builds a team could result in it having even bigger problems against other things, like Suicune, Jolteon or Flygon. You just can't make it impervious to everything.
Not necessarily. The metagame will only become centralised around a Pokemon if that Pokemon is so useful that teams of most or all playstyles are disadvantaging themselves by not using it.
If anything, at the moment the metagame is centralised around Scizor. I don't think it's Uber though, it's just that the most powerful priority move in the game isn't something you can ignore when teambuilding.
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