So you're saying you must have 1/3 pokemon on your team or expect to lose? Is that what you'd call a stabilizing effect on the metagame?
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np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
If you read his entire post, what I said is certainly what he's implying.
That said, Encore users beat the hell out of all these CMers people are complaining about, yet no one uses them.
Using a weather user is an obvious answer to beating rain, but not every would want one because a team cannot just swap one on and call it a day. It must build itself around said user. There are a significant amount of occasions where this would not benefit the team.
The problem with that manaphy set that Phil used is that unlike Kingdra/Tops/Insert other rain abuser here is that
A) It doesn't absolutely require rain to be effective (Kingdra does not apply to this point)
B) It sets up rain itself, and while it may appreciate a damp rock rain dance, the fact that it can fit it onto a moveset means that there isn't a waste of space on a team for a damp rock user (Yes, other rain abusing pokemon can use rain dance to some degree of effectiveness, but they usually lose coverage/set up move in the process)
The fact that the two MAIN weather users are weak to water (Tyranitar/Hippo) limits that strategy significantly.
With that said, I'm still on the fence with Manaphy. If there is a broken set, it is probably that one (Surf/Calm Mind/Rest/Rain Dance) since it cannot be revenge killed or even checked very easily like the other sets (Tail Glow/Specs/Crophy). I prefer Suicune for the cro set anyways, for reasons mentioned in above posts. Scarf Manaphy seems interesting, but lacks any power to be a threat, certainly not uber material.
On the other hand, I believe that Latias is uber. It absolutely destroys teams with Specs and Scarftar (its only real safe check) out of the picture it has no checks except for Blissey. I don't like being required to use Scarftar/Blissey anyways and both of them are very iffy. Latias could predict a crunch and just switch out for later use and you may say that Ttar has done its job but it has been weakened by surf to the point that it cannot come in as a check anymore. This means that you will have to sacrifice something to bring Ttar back in again. Blissey can obviously just get tricked and become useless.
Just my two cents.
The problem with that manaphy set that Phil used is that unlike Kingdra/Tops/Insert other rain abuser here is that
A) It doesn't absolutely require rain to be effective (Kingdra does not apply to this point)
B) It sets up rain itself, and while it may appreciate a damp rock rain dance, the fact that it can fit it onto a moveset means that there isn't a waste of space on a team for a damp rock user (Yes, other rain abusing pokemon can use rain dance to some degree of effectiveness, but they usually lose coverage/set up move in the process)
The fact that the two MAIN weather users are weak to water (Tyranitar/Hippo) limits that strategy significantly.
With that said, I'm still on the fence with Manaphy. If there is a broken set, it is probably that one (Surf/Calm Mind/Rest/Rain Dance) since it cannot be revenge killed or even checked very easily like the other sets (Tail Glow/Specs/Crophy). I prefer Suicune for the cro set anyways, for reasons mentioned in above posts. Scarf Manaphy seems interesting, but lacks any power to be a threat, certainly not uber material.
On the other hand, I believe that Latias is uber. It absolutely destroys teams with Specs and Scarftar (its only real safe check) out of the picture it has no checks except for Blissey. I don't like being required to use Scarftar/Blissey anyways and both of them are very iffy. Latias could predict a crunch and just switch out for later use and you may say that Ttar has done its job but it has been weakened by surf to the point that it cannot come in as a check anymore. This means that you will have to sacrifice something to bring Ttar back in again. Blissey can obviously just get tricked and become useless.
Just my two cents.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Latias is a great Pokemon, but the fact that every team has 2-3 checks for it in today's metagame makes it a liability to put on your own team, especially any version not called Specs or Reflect. On top of that, when building a team you MUST pack Blissey or a bulky as hell Pokemon with Pursuit (not named Scizor, as he became unreliable once people started using HP Fire, and because Specs Surf 2HKOs after SR), or else Latias will rip you apart. Those things considered, Latias has really taken a shit on what Pokemon has become. The limitations on team building alone should merit Latias an Uber nod based on the Support Characteristic, as even if you don't use Latias, it's making it much easier for your Pokemon to sweep because if your opponent was smart, he will have wasted a few slots on predictable Latias checks (joking obviously... but this has seriously gone too far). Anyways, in summation, I fully agree with LD's notion that Latias has put a fat restriction on the team building process. Unfortunately this effect is hard to put into words when making a case for the suspects' tiering, but hopefully Doug's PR topic will help out in that regard in the future.
I'm having a blast building teams for the FUK DRAGONS tournament, btw.
I did read his entire post. From what I understand, it was more that an answer to Rain Dance is needed on any given team, as any Rain sweeper is very dangerous in OU. Tyranitar, Abomasnow, and Hippowdon are surely not the only answers to this, as we've been dealing with Rain Dance strategies ever since DP, and no one has had severe problems dealing with them. Kabutops can kill the hell out of all 3 of those weather changers, and severely dent everything in OU, even having its own priority to deal with Mach Punch/Extremespeed users after a Swords Dance. DD Kingdra doesn't have priority, but his potential to go mixed is what's so dangerous in OU. Ludicolo can do the same. If you solely rely on using Tyranitar, Abomasnow, or Hippowdon to deal with these Rain sweepers, your team's going to get decimated if Rain Dance is set up again after they're dead.
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The Encore idea is a very good idea, and I'm not sure why people aren't using them. I suppose there aren't a huge amount of Encorers that surpass 308 Speed, which seems to be a common number for Manaphy's Speed, though I suppose Jumpluff and Lopunny would be good stoppers to CM users. Infernape is faster, though I wouldn't really trust it to stop Manaphy, being weak to Surf.
Very well, here is the stats thread for the month just before Latias was introduced into OU. Notice how the top 10 is composed of pretty much the same pokemon as it is now? This is why I frankly don't believe you when you say "you MUST pack Blissey or a bulky as hell Pokemon with Pursuit (not named Scizor, as he became unreliable once people started using HP Fire, and because Specs Surf 2HKOs after SR), or else Latias will rip you apart", or that every team has 2-3 checks for it. All of the pokemon that were popular before Latias was introduced were...still very popular when Latias was introduced into OU. The only thing that really changed was Jirachi moving into the top 10, and Rotom-A moving into the top 10, as well as Gengar barely making it in. People have easily realized how great of a pokemon Jirachi is in all positions in the team, and Rotom-A is the glue to many teams, much like Latias. Blissey has actually moved DOWN since then, meaning that people aren't required to have it as a check. Tyranitar has risen as a Pursuit user, but it took the rise of ScarfTar for it to rise into the top 3, and that's because, as mentioned several times in this thread, it's a great pokemon for countering/checking many threats. It's understandable that Infernape has moved down, because admittedly Latias is a near perfect counter to it (near-perfect because Scarf shits on Latias with U-turn).
Please explain why these stats have barely changed, because I don't understand how "Latias has really taken a shit on what pokemon has become" with this taken into account.
Don't tell me that I'm implying something when it's so obvious that you can't read dude. Where did I say that you have to pack a weather changer or lose?!? I just said that if you lose to rain\rest Manaphy, then you're likely to lose to rain dance teams in general, that's it. Having an answer to rain teams is just like having a counter for Lucario or Gyarados, if you lack one, then you take the risk of losing to those Pokemon.
Sorry, I didn't go through that whole thread. But I think you are fooling yourself if you don't see how much of an impact Salamence and Latias has affected the game (I'll ignore Manaphy for now.) This is my experience, Salamence is the best fucking OU dragon. This boy/girl has won me many matches effortlessly. It has consistently gotten me at least one sweep that allowed me break the game open in my favor whether its DD or Mix. It has won me some important tournament matches in which it destroyed teams by killing off at least 2 pokemon and even nailing me late game sweeps without much support. I was never a fan of using Latias, but I have seen ppl use sets like Expert Belt and CMRoar or ReflectRoar so efficiently. But one set I do use a lot is Specs. Its unbelievable how I can break things open with just one click on draco meteor or even surf.
Latias/Mence switching places in usage don't mean shit to me. Deoxys-E was sixth place in AUG 2008 ladder and it was banned. There are times where a team I would use with mence exclusively and break shit. And also use a team with Latias and break shit. Or even both to break even more shit (but I don't really like using it.) Fuck, you want to know how much impact Latias has gotten. IMO Snorlax is the true counter, but if they fucking bitch latias fuck over my snorlax with a crit, im screwed? Should I add another check to complement Snorlax, maybe, but Snorlax isn't that easy to fit into a team. Oh man, ScarfTar usage rose because of Latias. I didn't need to use ScarfTar because CB was even better, DDTar was more accessible to my teams, and I could still use shit like mixtar and lead tar without worrying about Latias. But its gay that ScarfTar wins 50% of the time vs SpecsLatias. Fuck, I use Scizor to check Lati, I get fucked by hp fire or 2ohkoed by specs after switching in. CB Max Bullet Punch doesn't even do enough to ohko after 1 SR. What happened to those Phy. Def skarms? Oh its gone, because Sp. Def Skarm actually take on Latias better. Yes, Jirachi is one good ass diverse fuck, but its apparent in my teams that mostly I use ScarfJirachi as a check for Mence, Latias, and late revenge kills. Hell, if I want to use CMJirachi, I better look for other options to beat Latias. Aww, now I have to use ScarfTar or the more risky baittar, Scizor, Sp. Def Skarm, Blissey, and fucking cradily?
Why wasn't Latias a problem before? Because we didn't have as much experience as we do now after finding out hey: Specs is good, Expert Belt is good, LO is good, it is an amazing supporter, and CM set isn't really the best set after all.
I played competitively since 2006 man and never in life has my teambuilding been limited since Garchomp era. Fucking how did latias open up my teambuilding options? It opened my options because now i can use latias? And now because since Latias was introduced that it evolved game, I can finally use other options to deal with it and fucking ubermence (don't wanna get into it)? I didn't complain much when Latias was OU and yes I evolved my game to deal with it. Shit, my glory time is even when Latias is OU when I created the most unique and successful team I have ever built in my life. But overtime the game has become so centralized, my teambuilding options are limited. I can't even get out of standards anymore. We all know people evolve as well and become more familar with the game.
Obviously they have a big impact on the game. They're both top 10 threats. Why does having a big impact on the game make something uber? Scizor has a much bigger impact by itself, but I don't see anyone saying that this pokemon is uber. While it can be said that Steels such as Scizor are only high because of Dragon usage, this would be wrong, because many Steel-type pokemon are just great in general, such as Jirachi, Skarmory, Scizor, Lucario, etc.
Really, consistently? With all the Ice attacks running rampant in OU, and even Stone Edge, I find it hard to believe that you can wallbreak/sweep with it consistently. Unless you're ridiculously skilled or something.
Also, the fact that you had to use Salamence lategame in those matches to sweep means that it did require support. Ie. getting rid of its checks/faster scarfers/priority users.
Any hard-hitting Choice user can "break things open" by using their high-powered STAB attack. And like any choice user, if they pick the wrong move, they risk letting the opponent set up or kill the opposing Choice user. Yes, Latias can switch, so what? The opponent isn't going to be spamming Earthquakes or Psychics once they recognize that Specs Latias is on the team. They're going to be more cautious, minimizing the chance that Latias can come back in alive. This is how most Choice users are dealt with, and Latias doesn't seem to break that mold.
Obvious Latias/Mence switching places in usage does nothing to you. Ever think that perhaps you're more skilled than the average player? Perhaps that's why you can "break shit" with both pokemon so easily. Usage stats look at the whole picture of the metagame in an objective way, not just what you think.
Deoxys-E was in sixth place and was banned because there was 20 voters in that test, and the only people playing, besides a very select few, were playing to get it banned, no other reason. The suspect ladder was pretty much completely dead during that test, and required getting a high rating on two different ladders.
If you crit the opponent's counter to a certain pokemon and it kills them, of course they're screwed. Latias isn't any different here. This obviously wouldn't require another check; we don't normally put 2nd counters for a pokemon as a backup for a crit of all things, and Latias is no exception.
ScarfTar, as Haunter has stated many times in this thread, is simply a really good pokemon. It didn't rise solely to beat Latias, it's also a guaranteed counter to Rotom-A, a great revenge-killer, absorbs Trick for Stall teams while also being a ridiculously defensive pokemon at the same time, etc. Also, so what is Latias wins 50% of the time against ScarfTar? The Latias user still has to predict perfectly, or else they lose their Latias. If ScarfTar came in on a Trick, Latias is dead no matter what.
Scizor is still a good Latias check, because HP Fire is still rare on Latias, and opens it up to a lot of other threats. It's also not as if people can't use the Specially Defensive versions of Scizor, which are also good for countering stuff like Gengar.
"What happened to those Phy. Def Skarms?" They were fazed out because Specially Defensive Skarm is just plain better, not because of Latias. A lot of Skarms resistances are specially-based, and people realized that maybe it shouldn't be getting 2HKOed by stuff it resists. Also, it lets Skarm set up Spikes against a wider variety of foes.
CM Wish Jirachi still beats Latias, especially non-CM ones.
And as for your last statement, obviously not. It's also not as if any of those pokemon are bad pokemon either.
Yes, and with that experience we've gathered over the past year, people have adapted to it.
No, it opens teambuilding options because it makes all styles of play more viable because it can fit on each of the team styles.
First of all, I don't know how many more times we're going to have to say this, but "centralization does not necessitate uber status". Also, if you can't get out of standards anymore, then stop trying to counter everything with your team. Although I don't know anything about your teambuilding skill, people tend to only use standards because they're trying to deal with every single threat, but as DPP has shown us, this simply isn't possible with only six pokemon.
Really? You do realize that there is much more information to be gathered from usage stats than just looking at which Pokemon are in the top 10 most used spots, don't you? Setting aside the fact that Tyranitar use has utterly skyrocketed since the introduction of Latias (probably because Scarf Tyranitar is, in my opinion, the only Latias check that is actually useful outside of beating Latias, as most other checks have to be pretty specialized for stopping Latias, and don't serve much other purpose), why have you failed to mention the actual usage NUMBERS? Adding up the usage % of the top 10 most used Pokemon in January 2009 produces 187, whereas adding up the usage % of the top 10 most used Pokemon in January 2010 produces a whopping 205.41. Can you now see the impact Latias has had on team building? Basically, people NEED to use the top 10 Pokemon that much more than they needed to one year ago. Variety has utterly diminished because like I said in my previous posts, to be successful you have to follow those guidelines. -__-
My bad, I guess I didn't take the percentages into account.
From what you've told me, it would seem that the top 10 usage has risen by 10% from January 2009. Is this really a bad thing though? Perhaps people have merely figured out what's good and what's not. Is it centralizing or stability? I guess Doug's PR thread does cover this, like you said, because sometimes too much variety is bad. There's also variety that can come from non-standard movesets on a commonly standard pokemon, so variety hasn't completely diminished.
One thing that is worth noting is that OU was the exact same size back then as it is now, so people certainly aren't filling their teams solely with pokemon from the top 10. I notice moreso that top 10 pokemon are often the glue to the team rather than the entire team itself.
Oh yea, lets add to the case that Scizor has big impact not only because of its versatility to fit in many teams, but its also there to stop mence and latias from rampaging. Of course they are great in general, but I want to see those steels have as much of a immediate impact than the dragons. The steels build impact overtime or are an impact late-game. There are times where Lucario and Scizor build immediate impact (SD variant,) but Lucario is mainly suited for late game duties and Scizor has more solid checks like Rotom-A and Heatran. Salamence and Latias on the otherhand can do both and generate immediate impact. The only true steel that have similar impact to Salamence and Latias is Heatran, but Salamence and Latias are more game-changing.
Oh yea, I do so consistently. What ice attack are you gonna hit me with? Starmie's? Empoleon's? Infernape's? Ol' reliable Jirachi? Magnezone? Suicune? Weavile? yea I want to see Starmie, Empoleon, Infernape, and Weavile switch into a Draco Meteor or a DD (Empoleon gets fucked 2nd turn by EQ, Weavile isn't that scared of DD) If you guess wrong, Magnezone is fucked by DD, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, EQ/Brick Break, hell it even gets hit hard by Draco Fuck. Jirachi could also be fucked if you guess wrong by Fire Blast/EQ and hell if I am DD Jolly, that Jirachi better win that speed tie.
LOL stone edge on what? Tyranitar? Gyarados? Aerodactyl? Tyranitar gets fucked by DD anyways and is also hit hard by Draco Fuck. Gyarados is ok though it gets a DD first. Aerodactyl dies early anyways.
Yes, I am ridiculously skilled (ridiculously is a crazy term, but ok.) Yes, I said it.
I didn't say it didn't require support. I just said I swept without much support.
Umm, Latias has a STAB Draco Meteor which makes a whole lot of difference when its only resisted by Steel. Surf is also a great compliment to STAB Draco Fuck which other pokes do not have except Kingdra and Dragonite (Lol surfnite.)
So, this means more skilled people like me would agree with my stance. Stats never meant much to me other than its fun to look at. If I can perphas break shit so easily, this questions the ability of the "average" player. That ain't fun for the average player taking the huge beating is it? Hell, if the average player rises up to be the star one day, maybe they can break shit easy too on the average player.
I remember it this way. Deoxys-E was banned by a select few, yes. I never even cared much about Deoxys-E until the Spiking set was such a bitch. I remember we tried to introduce it into the ladder again, but it was so broken that we took Deoxys-E out immediately after people complained about it. Who makes the final decision really to take it out in that manner? The Tier Adminstration saw that the ppl complaining that "Deoxys-E should be taken out mid-way" was convincing enough to have it removed before it was even voted.
Well, some people have, some people haven't. I have seen newer users wanting to keep Latias more than the older users honestly. This is a fact for the "general population" that if you keep on saying it and saying it, people would just say fuck it and agree. The newborn players would try to adapt to the general population and thus their love for pro-latias is born.
Well, I could also say that to Post-Garchomp, Pre-Latias. I had so many different team styles at that time that was equally as fun and competitive.
Centralization is not a Uber Criteria, but this is mistaken by the community. The Uber criteria is really good way to start and generate ideas/arguments. In reality man, its all about wanting a "desirable" metagame. I like many I have talked to agree that the Pokemon game needs some centralization, but the centralization that latias and mence have given us so many problems. Pokemon is depressing right? Yea, I felt that way ever since the Latias/Mence controversy.
How can I not stop trying to counter everything. Everyone wants to build a team that is as perfect as possible to be competitive, have fun, or w/e. If it can't be perfect, we want to minimize the damage different Pokemon can do to our team.
But you know it sucks if you have counters/checks to Latias or Mence, but still lose the counters because of their raw power and ability to change the game mainly by itself. This is a hard to explain, but I know many of you top dogs know what I am talking about.
Hmm, LoveDestiny, there were some interesting points in the post you just made. I'm not going to quote the entire post, but just the points I want to address:
When I used Specs Latias, I barely ever used Trick, because often times, it was far too risky of a move with the sheer amount of Choice users in this metagame there to absorb it, as well as pokemon which simply don't mind the Specs like Heatran. Therefore, I don't really think losing Trick is too much of an issue when Kingdra gets that crucial Water STAB and doesn't get boned by Pursuit.
One thing I wondered when I saw this, is why no one uses Choice Specs Kingdra? A Modest Specs Kingdra hits with basically the same strength as Timid Specs Latias (317 vs. 319). While Specs Kingdra only has 269 Speed, it sounds as though people such as yourself are focusing more on punishing switch-ins. It seems as though Modest Specs Kingdra is better at this than Latias, because not only does it have both Surf/Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor, it actually has Water STAB, allowing it to hit Steels much harder than Latias with Surf or Hydro Pump (which Latias doesn't get).
When I used Specs Latias, I barely ever used Trick, because often times, it was far too risky of a move with the sheer amount of Choice users in this metagame there to absorb it, as well as pokemon which simply don't mind the Specs like Heatran. Therefore, I don't really think losing Trick is too much of an issue when Kingdra gets that crucial Water STAB and doesn't get boned by Pursuit.
I'm wondering why this is, because this is a very interesting point. Why can newer players adapt to Latias while older players refuse to (this is of course, not assuming that all newer players are terrible and all older players are gurus)? Latias isn't as clear-cut as Garchomp, where newer and older players alike were complaining about it.
Competitive in DPP is different than competitive in ADV. While competitive in ADV meant that your team needed to counter everything in OU, in DPP, it means having a viable strategy and a team that can work to carry it out. While you certainly don't want a top 10 threat rampaging through your team, checks to these threats are generally more viable than counters, because counters can end up being dead weight if their target isn't even on the opponent's team. Just to give an example, if I have Blissey on my team to counter special threats, but I face an opponent who doesn't use special attackers, my Blissey is dead weight (it is kind of an extreme example, but it works.
Umm, but unlike Latias, it doesn't have that nice fighting resist, more superior defenses, superior sp.atk, and yes you mention speed. You can try Specs Kingdra, lol. I rather use RainMixDra.
Trick is really only for Blissey in the most dire situations. otherwise, its useless.
This is sociology/psychology here, I would discuss my reasoning, but I am tired and need to do HW (too much talking with bologo.)
DPPt is a different game, but my competitive spirit is at its all time low because of the current DPPt metagame. The metagame isn't that "desirable" to me anymore which is why I halted a lot of my battling activity. I am mainly on Smogon only to really make the game "desirable" for other players.
Not sure about y'all, but although blunt, I feel that LoveDestiny's argument to ban Latias is probably the best one out there right now, and he makes a ton of good points that we just can't ignore.
EDIT- Ninja'd by LD lol.
LoveDestiny, maybe you can address my question later tomorrow or after you finish your homework (real life > smogon) but I'm not following your argument. A lot of your first post dealt with Salamence instead of Latias, so I may have missed something, but this is what I think you're trying to convey:
-Latias has restricted team options because you have to be able to beat it or you will be wrecked.
-Latias can punish switch-ins with ease due to STAB DM and a powerful Surf.
-Latias has turned the metagame to evolve to deal with it, causing steels to come in and spreads to change to deal with it (or something to that extent.)
Is that it or am I missing something really imporatant?
-Latias has restricted team options because you have to be able to beat it or you will be wrecked.
-Latias can punish switch-ins with ease due to STAB DM and a powerful Surf.
-Latias has turned the metagame to evolve to deal with it, causing steels to come in and spreads to change to deal with it (or something to that extent.)
Is that it or am I missing something really imporatant?
From what I've understood, you're right on. I'm gonna give my take on the situation (I'm sorry for not bringing this up earlier):
I played Shoddy extensively in the Garchomp era without ever using Garchomp. I have a thing for not using the accepted best. That aside, I lived through the Skymin and Deoxys eras as well. However, when I figured out I was going to Slovenia for the fall semester (last semester atm), I went cold turkey and worked on preparing for my foreign exchange. I got back on January 21st. The last month there I dabbled and even went for some Suspect Test matches. I will say the metagame shift was huge.
Now I am not the best player. At my peak I was bordering on 1400. Now I rarely play and am at 1200 or so. My preference is traditional stall but I experiment a lot (Gyarados + Magnezone on stall is awesome btw). My most effective teams are not quite HO but close, though I hate the style.
Latias is the metagame right now. If your team cannot deal with Latias, you will lose. Period. She has a shitload of checks but can beat them all with one set: Specs. Tyranitar has to guess what to do. Blissey and almost every other wall gets royally owned by Trick. In my mind, Latias was the new Garchomp. Since it had so many checks, not everyone used it. But you HAD to be prepared. Immunity to entry hazards, shitloads of useful resistances, and enough bulk to take many SE hits. Did I mention the power and speed? And support options. Too much.
My previous comments were milder. Those were simple posts without much thought. But I rolled this over on the bus home today and found what I felt when I realized Latias was OU: "oh shit how could they do this?" Manaphy I'm still skeptical about, mostly because I have always found a way to deal with it (never faced a RainRest version though). Latias is just too much right now.
My 2 cents.
Wait what? I tried to theorymon this awhile back and it didn't work then, does it somehow work now?
Let's take standard CM Wish Jirachi 252 hp 220 def 36 spd vs. standard specs latias (draco surf t-bolt trick)
You win if you switch into Draco.
You don't want to switch into trick.
I'm pretty sure you lose if you switch into surf or thunderbolt (please let me know if I messed up with any of the following).
You switch in taking 34.16%-40.35% from surf or thunderbolt. At this point you are healed by lefties and can either cm or wish.
You should not be using cm because you are going to be out sped and take another 34.16%-40.35%, and you need to survive the next two turns as you wait for wish at +1 spdef (22.77%-26.98%). Some quick math (subtracting 18.75% for lefties) gives 95.11%-115.91% (without sr). I don't like those chances.
If you use wish then cm you take three 34.16%-40.35% hits and subtracting for 12.5% lefties gives us 89.98%-108.55%. This is a KO approx. 41.03% of the time and with sr 79.49% of the time.
Quite obviously you can pump spd evs into Jirachi in order to survive. This spread 252hp 86def 136spdef 36spd (bold) always survives with sr. It doesn't with a layer of spikes though.
Personally I didn't feel that this Jirachi was good enough at being a cm sweeper with this set to warrant using it. I haven't actually played with it though, this was all theorymon before making a team (I was looking for a latias check) so I don't know how it plays out in practice. Perhaps the latias user doesn't know that it will often (barely a majority of the time if you consider critical hits) win this matchup and switches out? Is the above Jirachi still useful despite it's loss of def evs, especially considering it will still lose ~40% of the time with just 1 layer of spikes not to mention it's chances if it has taken damage previously?
It's a shame that the test ended early. I had an inclination to participate in the last two weeks of the test. I probably should have seen this coming given the low level of activity during the second half of last test, ah well perhaps next test.
I actually like your spread better than the 252/220/36 spread. You not only easily beat Latias now (unless there's a ton of entry hazards and she gets a very high damage roll each time), but you're also no longer guaranteed to be OHKOed by ScarfTran Fire Blast after SR (which is good if you have no choice but to face off against him), you can set up on Zapdos's Heat Wave easier (it will never 2HKO this spread), not to mention being able to stomach ScarfRotom-A's Thunderbolts much easier. Keep in mind that I never used CM Wish Jirachi either, but it seemed that whenever I tried doing Draco Meteor with Specs Latias, one of these things would come in and force me out.
Yes, you are right on the analysis of my statements. But the most important thing to me is my speculation that bans for Latias or/and Mence drives the metagame to be fun, competitive, or competitively diverse in any way. Its all about "desirable" metagame for me.
One thing I really don't get is this appeal to the "old guard". The "old guard" is just not necessarily relevant to these Suspect tests, unless a significant portion participates. The "old guard" is not necessarily correct, nor does the "old guard" have any special privilege to decide what metagame we all want. There is a point that some of us haven't even seen a Latias-lacking OU metagame, but really that's just the main consequence of dropping Latias down after her test when it wasn't supposed to be dropped down. Now we just have to live with that consequence.
I have a hypothetical question for the "old guard" which may answer a little issue I'm having with what is basically the republican vs. democrats (or in canadian terms, conservative vs. liberal :P) here:
If Tyranitar was uber at the beginning of DP and was brought down from ubers for a suspect test, would he have even had a chance in the OU tier?
Think about it. Tyranitar by itself has an enormous impact on the game. It's very difficult to use non-Steel Psychic types in OU because of Tyranitar due to the constant fear of Pursuit. Being a Rock-type that sets up permanent Sandstorm for itself gives it a unique combo that pretty much always ensures that his Special Defense will be raised by 50%, 354 without any investment, equivalent to base 159 Special Defense. Because of this, we have random things running HP Fighting when it's introduced into the tier, most of which don't even OHKO, even after a boost. It takes an extremely strong super effective attack to OHKO Tyranitar on either side due to essentially having 100/110/159 defenses, more if he raises Special Defense, changing his base Special Defense stat due to the Sandstorm boost (it's base 174 at max). Literally, his only bad stat is Speed, which can easily be fixed with Choice Scarf, Rock Polish, or Dragon Dance, or become a non-issue with Curse. Add to this the sheer unpredictability of Tyranitar, who has different counters for each of his sets. If Gliscor comes into Tyraniboah, MixTar or Choice Specs, he's dead, same with Hippowdon and Breloom. However, they are the main counters to the DD set, which poses a problem. Scizor isn't a good check to DDTar because people have Babiri Berry. He also makes Stall teams cry by getting rid of their Ghost without even trying and letting the Rapid Spinner spin away all of the Stall team's entry hazards. Add to the fact that he's a great wallbreaker, sweeper, staller, and support pokemon all in one, and you have yourself quite a monster on your hands. There's no doubt that the game would become centralized around him.
In my opinion, I feel that I've described a suspect that wouldn't have even made it past stage 3-1 if he had started out as Uber in DPP and was brought down for a suspect test.
If Tyranitar was uber at the beginning of DP and was brought down from ubers for a suspect test, would he have even had a chance in the OU tier?
Think about it. Tyranitar by itself has an enormous impact on the game. It's very difficult to use non-Steel Psychic types in OU because of Tyranitar due to the constant fear of Pursuit. Being a Rock-type that sets up permanent Sandstorm for itself gives it a unique combo that pretty much always ensures that his Special Defense will be raised by 50%, 354 without any investment, equivalent to base 159 Special Defense. Because of this, we have random things running HP Fighting when it's introduced into the tier, most of which don't even OHKO, even after a boost. It takes an extremely strong super effective attack to OHKO Tyranitar on either side due to essentially having 100/110/159 defenses, more if he raises Special Defense, changing his base Special Defense stat due to the Sandstorm boost (it's base 174 at max). Literally, his only bad stat is Speed, which can easily be fixed with Choice Scarf, Rock Polish, or Dragon Dance, or become a non-issue with Curse. Add to this the sheer unpredictability of Tyranitar, who has different counters for each of his sets. If Gliscor comes into Tyraniboah, MixTar or Choice Specs, he's dead, same with Hippowdon and Breloom. However, they are the main counters to the DD set, which poses a problem. Scizor isn't a good check to DDTar because people have Babiri Berry. He also makes Stall teams cry by getting rid of their Ghost without even trying and letting the Rapid Spinner spin away all of the Stall team's entry hazards. Add to the fact that he's a great wallbreaker, sweeper, staller, and support pokemon all in one, and you have yourself quite a monster on your hands. There's no doubt that the game would become centralized around him.
In my opinion, I feel that I've described a suspect that wouldn't have even made it past stage 3-1 if he had started out as Uber in DPP and was brought down for a suspect test.
I'm pretty sure this debate has happened frequently. Fortunately Tyranitar is dominated by fighting types, and has a ton of weaknesses. I've used a DD Tar pretty frequently and never had much success with him Nowhere near what Garchomp, Mence, or Dos would be capable of at least. He's great, but not anywhere near Uber. Sandstorm is ignored by like half the metagame.
Yes, Tyranitar is dominated by Fighting types. However, I can assure you that if he started out as uber in the beginning of DP, and was moved down for a suspect test, people would be complaining a lot about "centralization", as a strong Fighting attack is needed to beat Tyranitar, or that people don't like carrying strong Fighting-types on each of their teams.
Sandstorm teams (most of which include Tyranitar, Hippowdon not as much), are very prevalent as well, which is possibly why half the metagame ignores Sandstorm. Also, I have a feeling that people would be complaining about "centralization" around those types immune to Sandstorm during its suspect test.
My point is, people would probably complain about Tyranitar's "centralization" if he was coming down from ubers and as a result keep him in ubers, but because he was OU when DPP started, people were just used to Sandstorm and all of Tyranitar's dominance, and as a result just accepted it. EDIT: And what Twin_Scimitar said.