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Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
Oh dear, it seems that Smogon's damage calculator still needs to iron out a few creases.
Of course, any knowledgeable player could use their common sense to see that that calculation is wrong.
Yes, I get this on Libelldra's calculator as well, look's like one of them is wrong I guess. However, this is to say that Spikes and Rain are not going to be guarranteed to be up when Gorebyss comes out, just like how Kabutops is not going to be guarranteed SD when it sweeps. If there are no Spikes, Chansey is not going to get 2HKO'd, not to mention the fact that Hydro Pump has poor accuracy (You have 36% to miss, which is substantial).
I'm sure there was some accident or oversight, but I just ran that example on both the calculator and in battle.
The calculator gives 47.7% - 56.2%, and to double check Chansey took an average of 53% from specs hydro pump during test battles I ran.
EDIT: I used Smogon's damage calculator. Also, while its another set altogether, Gorebyss can 2HKO Chansey by going mixed with Aqua Tail in the rain.
The calculator gives 47.7% - 56.2%, and to double check Chansey took an average of 53% from specs hydro pump during test battles I ran.
EDIT: I used Smogon's damage calculator. Also, while its another set altogether, Gorebyss can 2HKO Chansey by going mixed with Aqua Tail in the rain.
31.8% - 37.6% is precisely what you get without rain. Did you remember to select rain before you calculated?
FlareBlitz said:
Well, I wasn't suggesting that we ban three or four Pokémon. I was suggesting that we consider banning one Pokémon, which I'd explicitly stated, and to me Kabutops seems to be the most suspect out of all of them. Additionally, why does Kabutops OR Ludicolo OR Omastar etc. have more of a right to exist than Rain teams without one of these do?
I'm not saying that this IS the better way, but I think that it's worth considering.
I was merely saying that comparing it to a single sweeper was a bad example. I think that suggesting that Gyarados would be less broken than Rain is a rather tall order in itself.
Ctrl + F: Stealth Rock.
0 of 0.
Hell Specs Gorebyss can 2HKO Chansey WITHOUT rain up with 2 Hydro Pumps, 3 layers of Spikes, and SR up.
0 of 0.
Hell Specs Gorebyss can 2HKO Chansey WITHOUT rain up with 2 Hydro Pumps, 3 layers of Spikes, and SR up.
It can... but that's of course just interesting trivia at most, since it's really the entry hazards that are doing a lot of the work there, amounting for about 37% of Chansey's health loss by themselves (with that kind of support, I'm sure numerous Pokemon could have similar results). Not to mention the unlikeliness of you actually finding the turns to get 4 entry hazards up (if something actually lets you do that, I'm pretty sure that's the Pokemon I'd accuse of being broken, or otherwise your opponent was most likely... not very good), using a Choiced Pokemon on a team where turns are vital (if we're talking about Specs Goberyss on a Rain Team after the Rain had ended; not really sure, as the post doesn't make it clear), and consecutively hitting with 2 Hydro Pumps (a 64% chance). In other words, a scenario that should almost never really happen, so it's a pretty meaningless statistic, really.
I've seen absolutely no one use Specs Gorebyss, that's why I'm doing calcs. The closest I've seen was LO Gorebyss with Hydro Pump and Chansey walled that bitch to death.
I'll take you guys' word on it this time, but without SR, Chansey is still gonna wall her average damage output due to Leftovers. If you stay in and try to roll for max twice, you're just giving her a free Twave.
Frankly, I don't even see why this is being discussed. "Rain will be less broken if we get rid of all the good rain sweepers!" Well, no shit. Obamasnow would probably be acceptable in UU if we got rid of all the ice types too, but you don't see anyone advocating that.
The argument being made right now is that if Pokemon X, Y, and Z is broken under supporting condition Y, we should get rid of all three Pokemon instead of just getting rid of the supporting condition. If we're going to do that, we even HAVE a support clause? Why not just ban all the good sweepers being aided? "Hey guys, Wobbuffet helps Salamence, Lucario, Kingdra, etc. sweep, if we get rid of all of them and force people to use shit like Sunflora it won't be broken anymore!!111".
Honestly -___-
Edit: SJCrew, others have already posted calcs, and if you do the math, you'll know that the most specially defensive Chansey possible is 2hko'd, accounting for leftovers, with just 1 layer of spikes (or SR). And I use Specs Gorebyss, and I've killed my fair share of Chansey with it. It also 2hkos funny shit like Milotic, Azumarril, and Venusaur, by the way, and ohkos stuff like Leafeon and Sceptile.
The argument being made right now is that if Pokemon X, Y, and Z is broken under supporting condition Y, we should get rid of all three Pokemon instead of just getting rid of the supporting condition. If we're going to do that, we even HAVE a support clause? Why not just ban all the good sweepers being aided? "Hey guys, Wobbuffet helps Salamence, Lucario, Kingdra, etc. sweep, if we get rid of all of them and force people to use shit like Sunflora it won't be broken anymore!!111".
Honestly -___-
Edit: SJCrew, others have already posted calcs, and if you do the math, you'll know that the most specially defensive Chansey possible is 2hko'd, accounting for leftovers, with just 1 layer of spikes (or SR). And I use Specs Gorebyss, and I've killed my fair share of Chansey with it. It also 2hkos funny shit like Milotic, Azumarril, and Venusaur, by the way, and ohkos stuff like Leafeon and Sceptile.
I don't think you understand what we are asking for. I am asking for evidence as to why it is Damp Rock that breaks rain and not the Pokemon. Yes, it gives them 3 more turns. But would the rain be broken is there were not pokemon to abuse it? What about Heat Rock? That extends a weather that boosts speed and moves by 3 turns? Why isn't it broken? Simple. Because there are no pokemon that abuse both the Speed and STAB attack boost. Until people can explain to me why Damp Rock is broken and not the Pokemon, then I won't accept any argument about Damp Rock, because it will be incomplete.
RBG, I already addressed your argument in my post above. You're right in that if we got rid of all the good Swift Swimmers, rain will probably not be broken. Just like if we got rid of Salamence, Lucario, [insert good OU sweeper here], Wobbuffet probably wouldn't be broken.
When nominating something under the support clause, the argument against its nomination should not be "Why don't we just ban the thing it's supporting?" Because then, frankly, we shouldn't have a support clause at all, as that same argument can apply to literally everything that has ever been banned under it, including things like Soul Dew (why not just ban Latias?), Mew (why not just ban everything except shit like Spinda?), Crobat, Abomasnow, etc. I think you get the point.
Your comparison to Heat Rock is utterly irrelevant. It's kinda like saying "Well, Stick on Farfetch'd isn't broken, but Soul Dew is on Latias, so why not just ban Latias?" Yes, obviously the Pokemon who benefit from support are relevant, but that's no reason to ban them over banning the supporting cause.
When nominating something under the support clause, the argument against its nomination should not be "Why don't we just ban the thing it's supporting?" Because then, frankly, we shouldn't have a support clause at all, as that same argument can apply to literally everything that has ever been banned under it, including things like Soul Dew (why not just ban Latias?), Mew (why not just ban everything except shit like Spinda?), Crobat, Abomasnow, etc. I think you get the point.
Your comparison to Heat Rock is utterly irrelevant. It's kinda like saying "Well, Stick on Farfetch'd isn't broken, but Soul Dew is on Latias, so why not just ban Latias?" Yes, obviously the Pokemon who benefit from support are relevant, but that's no reason to ban them over banning the supporting cause.
That's still not the point.
What I (I cannot speak for RBG, but I will assume) and others are looking for is a reason that Damp Rock is broken. "It gives 3 turns and that's good" does not cut it.
Nothing, I repeat, nothing has been said about how Damp Rock is actually broken (well Franky at least explained it a bit). Everyone's argument has been "Rain is broken, and this will probably maybe possibly nerf rain, so let's ban it on this hunch", which frankly is not much of an argument at all.
So one more time: Why is Damp Rock broken? There are absolutely Pokemon we could ban instead, such as Kabutops (who would probably solve the problem without banning Damp Rock for no reason, but whatever).
This directly addresses the difference between Rain Dance + Damp Rock and plain ol' Rain Dance. I don't explicitly say "rain is broken with the rock and lame without it", but the general idea is that without the Rock, rain teams have some serious flaws that a good player can easily capitalize on for the win.
Heysup, from what I understood, RB's argument is: "If rain is broken, why is Damp Rock the culprit and not the swift swimmers?" He says as much in his post on the last page, in fact, although I'm happy to let him clarify.
As to why Damp Rock itself is broken...your (sarcastic) argument about sums it up. It gives three extra turns of rain and that's good. Pokemon is a game where one turn can make the difference between a win and a loss. Three extra turns of massive speed and power are, by comparison, quite a bit more significant. It's simply logical that the more turns rain sweepers have to...well, sweep, the more damage they're going to cause. You think you can switch your water resists into Surfs and Waterfalls forever? With 5 turns of rain, you'll have to do so exactly 3 times before you get a chance to heal/go on the offensive your self. With 8 turns, you'll have to do so exactly 6 times. That's DOUBLE the amount of turns, DOUBLE the amount of damage, DOUBLE the chances your opponent has to switch out of a bad matchup and still continue sweeping with something else, and DOUBLE the amount of risk that you'll get outpredicted and lose. Look at it that way, and you see why it's significant.
As to why Damp Rock itself is broken...your (sarcastic) argument about sums it up. It gives three extra turns of rain and that's good. Pokemon is a game where one turn can make the difference between a win and a loss. Three extra turns of massive speed and power are, by comparison, quite a bit more significant. It's simply logical that the more turns rain sweepers have to...well, sweep, the more damage they're going to cause. You think you can switch your water resists into Surfs and Waterfalls forever? With 5 turns of rain, you'll have to do so exactly 3 times before you get a chance to heal/go on the offensive your self. With 8 turns, you'll have to do so exactly 6 times. That's DOUBLE the amount of turns, DOUBLE the amount of damage, DOUBLE the chances your opponent has to switch out of a bad matchup and still continue sweeping with something else, and DOUBLE the amount of risk that you'll get outpredicted and lose. Look at it that way, and you see why it's significant.
If anyone missed my post, it was at the very bottom of the previous page. This is basically the answer, in my opinion, to why Rain Damp is broken with three extra turns.
You did not address my comments at all. You have yet to give reasons as to why it is Damp Rock that breaks rain and not the pokemon besides "Support characteristic needs to be used somehow!"
You don't realize that Wobb wasn't broken just because of those pokemon solely, not was that the main reason at all. It was broken because it had the ability to, among other things, make any pokemon slower than it that was a wall use up all it's healing moves, rendering such "walls" useless. Wobbafett removed the whole concept of predictions and counters, which it was why it was banned
The argument for it's nomination should also include why it isn't the Pokemon that are supported are to blame, and instead, why the supporter is the one breaking things. You have said many, many times what Damp Rock does and how it helps rain teams, but you have yet to say why it is the fault of damp rock, and not the pokemon themselves that are broken. So it gives an extra three turns. Why isn't it the Pokemon's fault? I have to see valid reasoning stating why it isn't the pokemon, and so far, all the arguments have been about the Damp Rock.
Another thing to mention is that, saying the pokemon are medicore without rain and that they shouldn't be banned is, imo, a bad argument, seeing how 90% of the time at least they are on rain teams, and thus, should expect to have rain, with or without damp rock.
Oh, and when you are arguing a point, saying something that is obviously wrong ("Mew (why not just ban everything except shit like Spinda?),")
You don't realize that Wobb wasn't broken just because of those pokemon solely, not was that the main reason at all. It was broken because it had the ability to, among other things, make any pokemon slower than it that was a wall use up all it's healing moves, rendering such "walls" useless. Wobbafett removed the whole concept of predictions and counters, which it was why it was banned
The argument for it's nomination should also include why it isn't the Pokemon that are supported are to blame, and instead, why the supporter is the one breaking things. You have said many, many times what Damp Rock does and how it helps rain teams, but you have yet to say why it is the fault of damp rock, and not the pokemon themselves that are broken. So it gives an extra three turns. Why isn't it the Pokemon's fault? I have to see valid reasoning stating why it isn't the pokemon, and so far, all the arguments have been about the Damp Rock.
Another thing to mention is that, saying the pokemon are medicore without rain and that they shouldn't be banned is, imo, a bad argument, seeing how 90% of the time at least they are on rain teams, and thus, should expect to have rain, with or without damp rock.
Oh, and when you are arguing a point, saying something that is obviously wrong ("Mew (why not just ban everything except shit like Spinda?),")
RB, I'm not certain what your expectation is. I've pointed out that we should ban Damp Rock over banning the sweepers because both of them together are what make rain broken. I've pointed out that Damp Rock should be prioritized over banning the rain sweepers because the rain sweepers serve a function outside of rain, while damp rock serves literally no purpose other than to make rain broken. It doesn't matter that these are "bad Pokemon" (they're not; Kabutops and Ludicolo are very useful).
Again, I compare this to the Soul Dew situation. Latias can have a non-broken (although this is currently being debated I guess) function in an OU team, but Soul Dew's only function is to make Latias broken. In that situation, when you ban Latias, you might as well automatically ban Soul Dew as well, since no one will put it on Flygon or something. This is why the decision was made to ban only Soul Dew. Similarly, if you ban all the good rain sweepers, no one is going to be using Damp Rock to support shit like Lumineon or Seaking. Even if you ban just Ludicolo and Kabutops, that'll cripple rain to such a degree that it'll barely be useful (not very fun when your entire team is walled by Chansey).
And I know this is a bit irrelevant to the current discussion, but I think it's odd that you're suggesting that Wobbuffet being able to support sweepers by removing the ability of walls to heal is "not the main reason" for it fitting the Support clause. Its only other function was to eliminate scarfers, which also serves sweepers for obvious reasons. I'm still not seeing any difference between eliminating all the sweepers that make Wobbuffet worth a slot on your team and eliminating all the rain sweepers that make Damp Rock worth a slot on your Pokemon, so I would appreciate it if you could clarify.
Again, I compare this to the Soul Dew situation. Latias can have a non-broken (although this is currently being debated I guess) function in an OU team, but Soul Dew's only function is to make Latias broken. In that situation, when you ban Latias, you might as well automatically ban Soul Dew as well, since no one will put it on Flygon or something. This is why the decision was made to ban only Soul Dew. Similarly, if you ban all the good rain sweepers, no one is going to be using Damp Rock to support shit like Lumineon or Seaking. Even if you ban just Ludicolo and Kabutops, that'll cripple rain to such a degree that it'll barely be useful (not very fun when your entire team is walled by Chansey).
And I know this is a bit irrelevant to the current discussion, but I think it's odd that you're suggesting that Wobbuffet being able to support sweepers by removing the ability of walls to heal is "not the main reason" for it fitting the Support clause. Its only other function was to eliminate scarfers, which also serves sweepers for obvious reasons. I'm still not seeing any difference between eliminating all the sweepers that make Wobbuffet worth a slot on your team and eliminating all the rain sweepers that make Damp Rock worth a slot on your Pokemon, so I would appreciate it if you could clarify.
My expectation is a that someone can explain why Damp Rock is broken over the Pokemon. All I have heard is that "rain will be crap without these pokemon" or "these pokemon are useful outside of rain, so they shouldn't be banned". Both of these are false arguments, the latter of them being the worst. I could just say "Special Attacking Garchomp wasn't broken, so we should keep it in OU", and it would be inline with your statement. It doesn't matter if one of it's choices for a set is broken, it matters that its most broken set is broken and deserves being banned. What matters is that it is possible to argue that Kabutops and Ludicolo (Just using those two as random examples) are broken in the rain, so all other non-broken sets should not count towards them being UU.
Also, there is a difference between Soul Dew/Latias and Damp Rock/Rain Abusers. Soul Dew only works with two pokemon, while Damp Rock augments any pokemon that uses a Water Move, in addition to those with the Swift Swim ability. To try to compare those two items on equal grounds is not looking at the full picture.
My expectation is to see reasoning stating why the Pokemon themselves aren't broken, as every argument I've seen up to this point, bar frankys, has only stated that damp rock is broken, while barely addressing the possiblity that it might be the pokemon. When something is supporting something else, you have to say why it is broken and not what it supports. This has not been done up until now.
@J Franky: You forgot the part of the characteristic that says "under common battle conditions". When Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Gorebyss are being used, it is arguably always under Rain, so it would be assumed when using these pokemon, that "under common battle conditions" would include Rain being active.
Also, there is a difference between Soul Dew/Latias and Damp Rock/Rain Abusers. Soul Dew only works with two pokemon, while Damp Rock augments any pokemon that uses a Water Move, in addition to those with the Swift Swim ability. To try to compare those two items on equal grounds is not looking at the full picture.
My expectation is to see reasoning stating why the Pokemon themselves aren't broken, as every argument I've seen up to this point, bar frankys, has only stated that damp rock is broken, while barely addressing the possiblity that it might be the pokemon. When something is supporting something else, you have to say why it is broken and not what it supports. This has not been done up until now.
@J Franky: You forgot the part of the characteristic that says "under common battle conditions". When Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Gorebyss are being used, it is arguably always under Rain, so it would be assumed when using these pokemon, that "under common battle conditions" would include Rain being active.
Seriously, I've had to restart this post soooo many times because I'm attempting to not flame you rbg because...
We already know what Rain Teams are capable of with 8-Turn rain. We don't know what it is like playing a rain team that is running on a 5-Turn timer. Unfortunately, this will present us with "which do you like better scenario" but, this is the only scenario.
Voting Damp Rock as a suspect ISN'T THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. We are testing it to see if it really is the culprit. Why test 4 Pokemon when we could test an item?
We already know what Rain Teams are capable of with 8-Turn rain. We don't know what it is like playing a rain team that is running on a 5-Turn timer. Unfortunately, this will present us with "which do you like better scenario" but, this is the only scenario.
Voting Damp Rock as a suspect ISN'T THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. We are testing it to see if it really is the culprit. Why test 4 Pokemon when we could test an item?
(Heysup is going to love this one) Lol. What kind of argument is that?
They are broken, in the rain, presumably because the additional amount of turns they have to setup or do whatever. Hey, here is a crazy idea. Lets test the item that allows this scenario. If it isn't the item then perhaps it is in fact the Pokemon.
If you want to know WHY Damp Rock is what makes rain good, just look at this.
Turns of rain with Damp Rock: 8
Accounting for the turn of using Rain Dance: 7
Accounting for the switch (not relevant if Electrode gets OHKO'd): 6
Accounting for the stat-up (not relevant for Specs Gore): 5
Accounting for the sweep: 0
The rain sweep duration is actually closer to 5 turns. Now, let's compare that to Rockless rain.
Turns of rain without Damp Rock: 5
Accounting for the turn of using Rain Dance: 4
Accounting for the switch (see above): 3
Accounting for the stat-up (see above): 2
Accounting for sweep: 0
Without Damp Rock, over HALF of the rain time is gone. That 3 turns may not seem like a lot when you're comparing 8 to 5, but it leaps when you're comparing 5 to 2 (or even 6-3 assuming good but suboptimal conditions). Does that make things clear? If Damp Rock is removed, rain teams will become MUCH less powerful.
Turns of rain with Damp Rock: 8
Accounting for the turn of using Rain Dance: 7
Accounting for the switch (not relevant if Electrode gets OHKO'd): 6
Accounting for the stat-up (not relevant for Specs Gore): 5
Accounting for the sweep: 0
The rain sweep duration is actually closer to 5 turns. Now, let's compare that to Rockless rain.
Turns of rain without Damp Rock: 5
Accounting for the turn of using Rain Dance: 4
Accounting for the switch (see above): 3
Accounting for the stat-up (see above): 2
Accounting for sweep: 0
Without Damp Rock, over HALF of the rain time is gone. That 3 turns may not seem like a lot when you're comparing 8 to 5, but it leaps when you're comparing 5 to 2 (or even 6-3 assuming good but suboptimal conditions). Does that make things clear? If Damp Rock is removed, rain teams will become MUCH less powerful.
You don't know what it's like to have rain for only 5 turns? If only there was someway a person could go on the ladder and see what a Rain Team was like if rain only lasted 5 turns each time...
Oh wait! You could test a Rain Team on the ladder RIGHT NOW, without damp rock, like heysup suggested earlier.
Ummm... Thats not how UU testing works and you know it. Naming Damp Rock suspect doesn't get it removed from the ladder for a trial period to see if rain is broken without it. It is either voted on a second time (if it gets between 1/2 and 2/3 of the vote), or immediately banned. Tell me, where is the testing involved in this.
It's an argument that you conveniently left the other half out of. I was stating that Comparing the Soul Dew ban and a Damp Rock ban is not an equal grounds, because Soul Dew augments two pokemon, while Damp Rock, as I said, augments any pokemon with a Water Move, Swift swim, or Thunder.
Cool. Lets keep repeating our original argument without at all answering my question Without Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Gorbeyss, rain teams will be less powerful. You have yet to say why they aren't the problem. You just keep saying why damp rock is the problem. If you are arguing the support characteristic, you have to be able to explain why it is the supporter that is broken and also explain why it is not the supported.
In all honestly, I think RBG has a point in that Damp Rock isn't what makes rain broken, its certain sets of certain Pokemon that make it broken. I think that 5 turns of rain is just as bad as 8, Damp Rock really doesn't make a difference at all.
However, that being said, I think it isn't fair to ban ALL of the rain Pokemon simply because some function quite well out of the rain. Kabutops is an excellent support Pokemon out of rain, yet gets this bad rap because its almost always used on Rain teams. If Omastar is banned I will quit playing UU because it obviously isn't broken outside of rain. The only Pokemon I would consider banning from the tier are Ludicolo and Qwilfish simply because they are almost always never used outside of the rain, and they are in my opinion the most powerful users of the rain's benefits.
That, or just simply ban rain usage in UU. Would probably be the most simple and effective option without being so 'ban-happy' and giving certain Pokemon fates they don't deserve.
(Note I still think rain is not broken, but if you're objectively looking at it, I feel that Damp Rock was, once again, the wrong thing to test in regards to rain. Looks like the voters blew it again as usual, just look at the fiasco with Froslass that's still going on.)
However, that being said, I think it isn't fair to ban ALL of the rain Pokemon simply because some function quite well out of the rain. Kabutops is an excellent support Pokemon out of rain, yet gets this bad rap because its almost always used on Rain teams. If Omastar is banned I will quit playing UU because it obviously isn't broken outside of rain. The only Pokemon I would consider banning from the tier are Ludicolo and Qwilfish simply because they are almost always never used outside of the rain, and they are in my opinion the most powerful users of the rain's benefits.
That, or just simply ban rain usage in UU. Would probably be the most simple and effective option without being so 'ban-happy' and giving certain Pokemon fates they don't deserve.
(Note I still think rain is not broken, but if you're objectively looking at it, I feel that Damp Rock was, once again, the wrong thing to test in regards to rain. Looks like the voters blew it again as usual, just look at the fiasco with Froslass that's still going on.)