Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

[Bluewind]

I think the simplest and least hassling verdict should be to ban rain and remove the playstyle from UU; its simply too juvenile a tactic in terms of overall battling strategy and long-term thinking.

But by banning Damp Rock, almost the same is done. The difference is that people still get to have the chance of using Rain Dance (for whatever reason, either screwing Hail/Sandstorm or doing something crazy like trying 5 turns rain teams...) so I can't see a reason not to ban the item and ban the move instead (unless we get to the point that even with reduced rain time, the pokés are broken). I'd ban rain over sweepers anytime though.

 

[Smurf.]

But by banning Damp Rock, almost the same is done. The difference is that people still get to have the chance of using Rain Dance (for whatever reason, either screwing Hail/Sandstorm or doing something crazy like trying 5 turns rain teams...) so I can't see a reason not to ban the item and ban the move instead (unless we get to the point that even with reduced rain time, the pokés are broken). I'd ban rain over sweepers anytime though.

True that. Rain should certainly not be completely eradicated - unless of course even 5 turns proves to be uncounterable (which i highly doubt, having made a non damp rock team myself for shits and giggles.)

 

[Banedon]

Imagine a scenario where you could have rain out for 3 turns or 6 turns. Say you go to Kabutops the instant the rain gets out, so you can either SD and attack or attack twice under 3 turns, or SD and attack three times under the 6 turns. Either way, Kabutops is overpowered for the turns its under the rain, and especially if it bothers to Swords Dance.

I'm not convinced. Kabutops is overpowered for the turns its under rain, yes. But it's only overpowered for the turns its under rain. If rain only lasted 5 turns (no Damp Rock), then it would be easier to stall out the rain turns and therefore make Kabutops not overpowered. If rain lasted forever (some Pokemon with Drizzle allowed in UU) then Kabutops will stay overpowered forever. Obviously that the number of turns rain lasts is a relevant factor here. Also the turns when Rain isn't up are turns in which the other team can execute its own strategy, like putting up Screens / Substitute or using its own Swords Dance.

Also Kabutops being overpowered under rain doesn't convince me that Kabutops is the problem Pokemon, because it's (obviously) getting support from its team. A Lucario who's been Baton Passed +6 to all its stats is obviously overpowered, but it doesn't deserve being Uber does it?

 

[Heysup]

I tried a Damp Rockless team today as suggested by RBG and I am 100% certain that the culprit is Damp Rock not the sweepers. It basically was like playing with a Trick Room team except I get a STAb Boost and Speed is in my favor however, all my sweepers share common weaknesses an disadvantage Trick Room team lacks or at least can play around or w/e.

Two words: Confirmation bias.

Please post logs. Otherwise what you say regarding this really holds no weight.

And...Trick Room + STAB boost..? Are you trying to make a case for Rain not being broken without Damp Rock? If Rain is broken with Damp Rock, it is broken without it as far as I'm concerned until proven otherwise. Logs would help your case (or not, which is the more likely case).

 

[Smurf.]

Two words: Confirmation bias.

Please post logs. Otherwise what you say regarding this really holds no weight.

And...Trick Room + STAB boost..? Are you trying to make a case for Rain not being broken without Damp Rock? If Rain is broken with Damp Rock, it is broken without it as far as I'm concerned until proven otherwise. Logs would help your case (or not, which is the more likely case).

The brokeness of rain is not the stab boost or speed.. its the length of time rain is in play - a direct result of damp rock

 

[shrang]

The brokeness of rain is not the stab boost or speed.. its the length of time rain is in play - a direct result of damp rock

*sigh* He just said post logs because statements like that get us nowhere. Also the brokenness of rain is through the STAB boost or speed, that's what it does (You can have Rain in play forever if you want, if it doesn't boost STAB or raise speed, who gives a crap). What we are arguing is whether or not the so-called "brokenness" (Which I see isn't really broken) is too much to handle with the extra turns, or is Rain just broken even with 5 turns.

 

[flashbolt]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

Remember people; you are voting on Damp Rock and you have to argue that Damp Rock is (or isnt) broken. That is arguing that an extra three turns of rain is broken.

It is NOT valid to argue that rain is broken and more turns of rain is worse; that doesnt argue against Damp rock, that is an argument against Rain Dance. It wont help your vote. Notice that many people against the banning of Damp Rock will support this argument (ToF and Heysup have mentionned something similar).

It is also not enough to just state your arguement as obvious. Stating that the length of rain and the Stab makes it borken doesnt prove anything; treat it like any other banning and provide evidence; logs, calcs (a point Heysup has made).

I wont be voting because i havent had much experience with rain teams

Happy voting.

 

[Yuggles]

Ludicolo is the biggest issue on rain teams because it is unpredictable. Everything else has guaranteed sets and is not nearly as hard to beat down. If I think the item isn't a problem, why should I ban the item lol? The Pokemon are obviously the ones doing the sweeping, not the damn item...

If the playstyle is broken and requires no long term thinking skill whatsoever, why can't it be banned huh? Whether you have two usable turns of rain (which is flawed, not all Kabutops will Swords Dance turn 1) or 5, so what? Kabutops is still usually killing something, and with really tough walls like Registeel and Uxie to CONTINUOUSLY come in and set up rain again, the difference is negligible. Remember your rain sweepers aren't suppose to be taking much damage, so what's the problem with continually setting rain up again and again?

Um, I voted for like the first few suspects, and things went smoothly. I stopped voting after the first Froslass vote, and everyone goes banhappy. Guess what I said during the first Froslass vote - Its broken. Yet the voters insisted that it wasn't broken, citing reasons that I thought at the time were somewhat valid though oversimplified. Oh hey, guess what, you guys think Froslass is broken now. My posts aren't nonsensical, you guys are just behind the times again and again. You did blow it, otherwise we wouldn't be voting on the same suspects multiple times, constantly changing positions as well. If the voters didn't blow it (which includes me as well since I did vote), we'd have a stable and fun tier to play in, which is obviously not the case.

I suggest you get to #1 on the UU ladder multiple times, hold the position, go win some UU tours, rack up the experience I have in the tier, and then come back and address me. Saying I have no knowledge of the tier, god you gave me a good laugh.

You basically are nitpicking at one thing I said that didn't agree with your views. I don't think 3 versus 6 turns of sweeping are critical, and I'm entitled to that view. I suggest learning to argue rather than ridicule, you might just be viewed as a better member of the community.

One week ago you were saying Ludicolo only uses special sets, because the statistics said so. Now, even though no new stats have been released, it's the most unpredictable rain sweeper all of a sudden. You're just all over the place, but thanks for ignoring the majority of my paragraph, which had the most actually stuff in it instead of the nitpicking you're complaining about.

Your second paragraph is more garbage, which is why I keep saying you need more experience in the tier. You won some Smogon tours and have been #1 on the board, you're a true underused competitive pokemon master, clap clap. Yet you still don't understand simple concepts about rain (like, '5>2 turns doesn't matter'), which is why I say you need more experience. You're almost literally the only person with such a viewpoint, and I'm not even going to bother arguing that specifically when it's been done so much already.

Oh yeah, everyone went fine when you were voting, but then you left and suddenly all suspect tests fell apart. That's just beyond any reasonable allowances of egotism. People aren't neccesarily confused about suspects, it's just that arguments are so good that people can go back and forth on a topic (unfortunately your crap posts aren't going much at all except wasting time and space)

I'm aware that you have a right to an opinion but I have the right to argue about it. I'm not the one going to convince you about rain, but you're basically the only one with that opinion that the amount of turns of rain doesn't matter. That's fine, but at the end of the day you still look like you have no idea what you're talking about

 

[ZandgaiaX]

Ummm though it may not be that much, rain sweepers ain't broken...

Damp rock is, I just beated a rain dance team (2-0) that didn't had a damp rock at all. If my opponent did had damp rock on his uxie, I would've lost.

Also, I noticed that scarftres or normal moltres, does pretty well at handling Rain dance teams when raindance ain't up. As does milotic (the new UU spread) against Omasterspecs/scarf with hydropump and standard SDkabutops (as long as he hasn't got a SD yet/crit I think)

 

[ToF]

One week ago you were saying Ludicolo only uses special sets, because the statistics said so. Now, even though no new stats have been released, it's the most unpredictable rain sweeper all of a sudden. You're just all over the place, but thanks for ignoring the majority of my paragraph, which had the most actually stuff in it instead of the nitpicking you're complaining about.

Your second paragraph is more garbage, which is why I keep saying you need more experience in the tier. You won some Smogon tours and have been #1 on the board, you're a true underused competitive pokemon master, clap clap. Yet you still don't understand simple concepts about rain (like, '5>2 turns doesn't matter'), which is why I say you need more experience. You're almost literally the only person with such a viewpoint, and I'm not even going to bother arguing that specifically when it's been done so much already.

Oh yeah, everyone went fine when you were voting, but then you left and suddenly all suspect tests fell apart. That's just beyond any reasonable allowances of egotism. People aren't neccesarily confused about suspects, it's just that arguments are so good that people can go back and forth on a topic (unfortunately your crap posts aren't going much at all except wasting time and space)

I'm aware that you have a right to an opinion but I have the right to argue about it. I'm not the one going to convince you about rain, but you're basically the only one with that opinion that the amount of turns of rain doesn't matter. That's fine, but at the end of the day you still look like you have no idea what you're talking about

I really really don't get you. Yes Ludicolo is the most unpredictable rain sweeper, I don't get how you're trying to argue that. Statistics say everyone uses special sets, but that doesn't mean the Swords Dance set isn't equally as good. Almost 60% of Salamence run two physical moves, which would tell you its more inclined to be a DDMence, yet Salamence is equally as dangerous with the only 40% used Draco Meteor. Same thing applies here, just because people don't use it doesn't mean it's not good; it's not my fault people here don't understand the merit of trying new stuff and adapting to the metagame. All you do is complain, as you're doing now. Oh, and if I'm the only person with this viewpoint, what difference does it make? You're gonna criticize me just because I think something different than all of you guys? That just shows you're being hard-headed, I didn't even direct any of my criticisms to you in the original post. I don't know why you just decided to single me out and criticize me to be honest.

I don't need more experience in this tier as much as you don't need more experience criticizing me. I made my opinion know, you don't like it just ignore it. It's as simple as that. There are other competent people on this subforum who might disagree with what I think that are still respectful of what I say, like FlareBlitz for example who I've rarely seen eye to eye with. Like I said, you have nowhere near the experience I have in the tier, go prove yourself in the tier or something.

You're third paragraph is complete crap. It wasn't meant to be an egotistical post, it was meant to show that the process is obviously lacking if in the span of almost a year you guys have flip-flopped four times on something like Froslass, from UU to BL to UU to now maybe BL? That isn't even the fault of the process, that is the fault of the users voting in the process. I highly doubt that Froslass is deserving of so much attention that it keeps coming back and forth as broken and not-broken. So please, like I said, stop bashing me and actually think about the process. You're experience doesn't go back to the starting of this UU process, and mine does, so go take a history lesson or something and then maybe you can learn to talk like a gentleman instead of some baby.

And to address you're last paragraph, that's the thing - you're not arguing, you're just continually bashing me, which not only takes away from what you're trying to say but also makes you look like a complete jerk. I think I have enough of a rep to make 'stupid statements' in your opinion about the rain. If you were gonna argue with me, you wouldn't have made this a personal flame war against me like you did, so obviously you have some personal vendetta against me or something. Got a problem with me, take it up with me elsewhere, stop shitting up this thread.

 

[RBG]

Ummm though it may not be that much, rain sweepers ain't broken...

Damp rock is, I just beated a rain dance team (2-0) that didn't had a damp rock at all. If my opponent did had damp rock on his uxie, I would've lost.

Also, I noticed that scarftres or normal moltres, does pretty well at handling Rain dance teams when raindance ain't up. As does milotic (the new UU spread) against Omasterspecs/scarf with hydropump and standard SDkabutops (as long as he hasn't got a SD yet/crit I think)

Ok Cool. You've tested without Damp Rock. Now test without Kabutops/Ludicolo. You can't see which is more broken, since there are two choices, unless you test both choices.

 

[Yuggles]

I really really don't get you. Yes Ludicolo is the most unpredictable rain sweeper, I don't get how you're trying to argue that. Statistics say everyone uses special sets, but that doesn't mean the Swords Dance set isn't equally as good. Almost 60% of Salamence run two physical moves, which would tell you its more inclined to be a DDMence, yet Salamence is equally as dangerous with the only 40% used Draco Meteor. Same thing applies here, just because people don't use it doesn't mean it's not good; it's not my fault people here don't understand the merit of trying new stuff and adapting to the metagame. All you do is complain, as you're doing now. Oh, and if I'm the only person with this viewpoint, what difference does it make? You're gonna criticize me just because I think something different than all of you guys? That just shows you're being hard-headed, I didn't even direct any of my criticisms to you in the original post. I don't know why you just decided to single me out and criticize me to be honest.

I don't need more experience in this tier as much as you don't need more experience criticizing me. I made my opinion know, you don't like it just ignore it. It's as simple as that. There are other competent people on this subforum who might disagree with what I think that are still respectful of what I say, like FlareBlitz for example who I've rarely seen eye to eye with. Like I said, you have nowhere near the experience I have in the tier, go prove yourself in the tier or something.

You're third paragraph is complete crap. It wasn't meant to be an egotistical post, it was meant to show that the process is obviously lacking if in the span of almost a year you guys have flip-flopped four times on something like Froslass, from UU to BL to UU to now maybe BL? That isn't even the fault of the process, that is the fault of the users voting in the process. I highly doubt that Froslass is deserving of so much attention that it keeps coming back and forth as broken and not-broken. So please, like I said, stop bashing me and actually think about the process. You're experience doesn't go back to the starting of this UU process, and mine does, so go take a history lesson or something and then maybe you can learn to talk like a gentleman instead of some baby.

And to address you're last paragraph, that's the thing - you're not arguing, you're just continually bashing me, which not only takes away from what you're trying to say but also makes you look like a complete jerk. I think I have enough of a rep to make 'stupid statements' in your opinion about the rain. If you were gonna argue with me, you wouldn't have made this a personal flame war against me like you did, so obviously you have some personal vendetta against me or something. Got a problem with me, take it up with me elsewhere, stop shitting up this thread.

Your idea of rain is different than everyone else's, which is fine, except if you're posting it in a debate thread, then you're going to be argued with. That's how these things work, kid. Oh, and I wasn't aware that people can only start debates when they are specifically mentioned in another person's post. Whoops, my bad.

...Thanks for proving my point with the Salamence thing. You discredited SD Lucicolo and Specs Gorrebyss just last week, which are in the same boat: 'not used very much but are threatening'. You just argued for me. Did you not understand my post or something?

I neither need or want to 'prove myself in the tier.' It's been shown through your posts that I have a better understanding than you do about the game, there's no need for me to do anything. You're the one who needs to catch up.

I'm aware that it isn't the process causing issues, it's just that Froslass is a Pokemon that is constantly on the line between BL and UU. Need arguments come up, more Pokemon leave and come into the tier, things change. At least I'm only criticizing you instead of, say, making fun of all the voters.

The rest of your post is just more basing and complaining about me arguing about your ideas. No, there's no personal vendetta against big shot pokemon master, it's just that I find almost all of your ideas to be very messed up. I don't want multiple Pokemon to be ejected from the tier because of people like you, so I'm arguing about it. If you can't handle it, you can stop, and don't run into large debate threads without looking through them first.

 

[ToF]

Your idea of rain is different than everyone else's, which is fine, except if you're posting it in a debate thread, then you're going to be argued with. That's how these things work, kid. Oh, and I wasn't aware that people can only start debates when they are specifically mentioned in another person's post. Whoops, my bad.

...Thanks for proving my point with the Salamence thing. You discredited SD Lucicolo and Specs Gorrebyss just last week, which are in the same boat: 'not used very much but are threatening'. You just argued for me. Did you not understand my post or something?

I neither need or want to 'prove myself in the tier.' It's been shown through your posts that I have a better understanding than you do about the game, there's no need for me to do anything. You're the one who needs to catch up.

I'm aware that it isn't the process causing issues, it's just that Froslass is a Pokemon that is constantly on the line between BL and UU. Need arguments come up, more Pokemon leave and come into the tier, things change. At least I'm only criticizing you instead of, say, making fun of all the voters.

The rest of your post is just more basing and complaining about me arguing about your ideas. No, there's no personal vendetta against big shot pokemon master, it's just that I find almost all of your ideas to be very messed up. I don't want multiple Pokemon to be ejected from the tier because of people like you, so I'm arguing about it. If you can't handle it, you can stop, and don't run into large debate threads without looking through them first.

Oh thanks, I didn't know debates allowed for you to say that the other person doesn't know what he's talking about...especially since he has more experience with the game and the overall site as well.

For one, I never discredited SD Ludicolo as a threat, I simple said that its usage doesn't warrant all the hoopla over it. Specs Gorebyss on the other hand is just a stupid specific example of people trying to prove their point through the most extreme, specific measures. You're constantly nitpicking my statements to make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh, where did I agree with you? You obviously want to ban Damp Rock, and I want to ban rain, two completely different things. Saying that Ludicolo is unpredictable just reinforces my point that it is broken under the rain. Why don't you stop criticizing me on the most minor of words and actually show me that the rain isn't broken, but an additional 3 turns due to Damp Rock is? Under the rain, it's broken. Extra turns give it more staying power, I can't argue that, but I can argue that anytime rain is present, for 5 turns or for 8, something is likely going to die. That is enough for me to say the overall rain is broken, not some item that prolongs it. If the sun were broken I'd think the same argument applies, feel free to ARGUE please, not fucking start flaming again.

Froslass is consistently on the line why is my question. You know what it's gonna do, its not like you haven't had enough time to playtest it or whatever. Things do drop in the tier, but nothing so far has happened that prevents Froslass from doing what it's suppose to do. The niche that Froslass fills on UU teams has always been the same, so why can't the voters decide on whether its BL or UU? Or is like a year of playtesting still not good enough to make up your minds? I have the right to criticize every single suspect voter for this reason, including myself - for so many of these tests people were like "yeah the other guy will nominate it so I'll be a lazy fuck and just chill" and then when actual voting comes around they go back in hindsight and say "man I wish I submitted paragraphs". If you didn't know this, then you have a lot to learn about this tier kid.

Its funny how you continue to try and bait me into really flaming you, and then say your 'debating' in this thread. Oh by the way, if you don't have any intention to 'prove yourself in this tier' then why are you bothering to argue about it? And you say I'm the 'messed up one with little understanding of the tier'.

 

[Banedon]

Why don't you stop criticizing me on the most minor of words and actually show me that the rain isn't broken, but an additional 3 turns due to Damp Rock is? Under the rain, it's broken. Extra turns give it more staying power, I can't argue that, but I can argue that anytime rain is present, for 5 turns or for 8, something is likely going to die. That is enough for me to say the overall rain is broken, not some item that prolongs it.

Suppose someone has a Specs Adaptability PorygonZ, and every time he switches it in he uses Hyper Beam. If you have no ghost (or Chansey), then chances are something is going to die. Does this make PorygonZ broken? I don't think so; in fact Hyper Beam is pretty rare a move even.

I can't argue that Pokemon don't die when rain is present. Something will die, that's the strength of rain. However, the fact that rain lives on a timer is one redeeming point, because if you can survive the first bout of rain then you have a chance to hit back. See how this mirrors the PorygonZ case above:

Player puts up rain <-> PorygonZ gets a safe switch in.
Player sweeps while rain is up <-> PorygonZ uses Hyper Beam.
Rain dies <-> PorygonZ must recharge.

I contend that while Kabutops is overpowered while rain is up, that doesn't make it Kabutops' fault. He's trading turns in which he can't do anything (i.e. his team is setting up rain) for turns in which he's a ruthless sweeping machine. The overall effect balances out somewhat. If rain lasted forever, it's a different case entirely, and Kabutops essentially gets to sweep until Life Orb recoil kills him. The way you're arguing, it seems like you think Kabutops is overpowered in rain and therefore he is the one that should be banned. I simply don't agree. Like I said earlier, Kabutops is getting support. If screens are up, the entire enemy team is paralyzed and you pass some attack boosts to Rampardos, Rampardos would be overpowered, but it still doesn't deserve getting banned.

Also this:

Ok Cool. You've tested without Damp Rock. Now test without Kabutops/Ludicolo. You can't see which is more broken, since there are two choices, unless you test both choices.

I don't see what you're trying to achieve. Suppose rain without Damp Rock isn't overpowererd, and neither is rain without Kabutops / Ludicolo. Then what? This doesn't say anything about whether Damp Rock or Kabutops / Ludicolo is the culprit. Either banning Damp Rock or banning Kabutops / Ludicolo would be fine. At this point we can simply invoke the "but Kabutops / Ludicolo have uses outside of rain sweeping" argument to conclude.

Now if rain without Damp Rock were overpowered, then we can blame Kabutops / Ludicolo. But given that it isn't, then it looks discussion over to me.

 

[Bilaterus]

Except under rain with damp rock, Porygon-Z gets to use Hyper Beam 5 times.

 

[RBG]

I contend that while Kabutops is overpowered while rain is up, that doesn't make it Kabutops' fault.

This is the major line I disagree with. Kabutops combination of Moves, Typing, ABility, and Stats all contribute to how powerful it is under the Rain. The only reason he is overpowered is because of all of those combined. The Rain is merely a field condition that allows him to be powerful. It is in fact, all Kabutops fault, as he has the perfect Ability, Moves, Typing, and Stats, to abuse rain perfectly.

 

[Banedon]

Have you tried sweeping with Kabutops, without rain support? It doesn't work (at least, not very effectively). Also it seems to me you want to look at this case in particular.

Damp rock banned.
Uxie (say) is in, sets up Rain Dance (1st turn of rain).
Uxie U-turns out to Kabutops (2nd turn of rain).
Kabutops Swords Dances (3rd turn of rain).
Defender switches in Water resist to sponge Waterfall (4th turn of rain).
Defender sacrifices a Pokemon to Kabutops (last turn of rain).

Now Kabutops is entirely vulnerable. It's got no rain, no speed, and it's at risk of dying to whatever switches in next. +2 Adamant max Attack Life Orb Aqua Jet will hardly scratch Venusaur for example. It's gotten a kill, but Pokemon faint in Pokemon battles and there's nothing special about this one. Now it's forced to switch out. On the other hand, if rain were still up then Kabutops would be free to use the much more powerful Waterfall (rain boosted too) to force his way past Venusaur. You have to survive Kabutops for much longer with Damp Rock than without.

Frankly I thought this was so obvious it didn't need explaining ...

PS: Also see what I wrote a few posts above regarding Damp Rock-less Rain Dance.

 

[ToF]

Suppose someone has a Specs Adaptability PorygonZ, and every time he switches it in he uses Hyper Beam. If you have no ghost (or Chansey), then chances are something is going to die. Does this make PorygonZ broken? I don't think so; in fact Hyper Beam is pretty rare a move even.

I can't argue that Pokemon don't die when rain is present. Something will die, that's the strength of rain. However, the fact that rain lives on a timer is one redeeming point, because if you can survive the first bout of rain then you have a chance to hit back. See how this mirrors the PorygonZ case above:

Player puts up rain <-> PorygonZ gets a safe switch in.
Player sweeps while rain is up <-> PorygonZ uses Hyper Beam.
Rain dies <-> PorygonZ must recharge.

I contend that while Kabutops is overpowered while rain is up, that doesn't make it Kabutops' fault. He's trading turns in which he can't do anything (i.e. his team is setting up rain) for turns in which he's a ruthless sweeping machine. The overall effect balances out somewhat. If rain lasted forever, it's a different case entirely, and Kabutops essentially gets to sweep until Life Orb recoil kills him. The way you're arguing, it seems like you think Kabutops is overpowered in rain and therefore he is the one that should be banned. I simply don't agree. Like I said earlier, Kabutops is getting support. If screens are up, the entire enemy team is paralyzed and you pass some attack boosts to Rampardos, Rampardos would be overpowered, but it still doesn't deserve getting banned.

Completely different scenario. When rain subsides, remember you still have a +2 Kabutops / Qwilfish / Ludicolo possibly. I'd say that's completely different from a recharging Porygon-Z that can't do anything even if it wanted to. Kabutops at +2 is still threatening with Aqua Jet, Waterfall, and Stone Edge. I'd say that's hardly a balancing effect at all.

If you survive the first bout of rain, remember something is either getting crippled in the process or going out of commission. Physical walls that succeed in stopping Kabutops are likely going to die to either Qwilfish or SD Ludicolo. If you premier way of stopping these onslaught of rain threats is gone, I'd say whether rain turns are prolonged or not you will lose regardless. This is why I say the rain turns are insignificant to me, because something is either dying or getting crippled during the turns of rain. It then becomes a lot easier to continue sweeping provided you keep your Rain Dance users healthy, because one of your opponents main ways of stopping the physical attackers is now gone.

I don't want Kabutops to get banned lol. He is not broken outside the rain and therefore shouldn't be removed just because of the rain condition. I think the overall rain is the culprit, and should be banned as a playstyle. It's a simple tactic that requires no knowledge of the metagame or skill to play, any novice can be successful with a good team. It doesn't promote the healthy metagame that I would like to play in.

 

[Acritter]

This is the major line I disagree with. Kabutops combination of Moves, Typing, ABility, and Stats all contribute to how powerful it is under the Rain. The only reason he is overpowered is because of all of those combined. The Rain is merely a field condition that allows him to be powerful. It is in fact, all Kabutops fault, as he has the perfect Ability, Moves, Typing, and Stats, to abuse rain perfectly.

Or maybe Damp Rock'd Rain has the combination of speed boost, damage boost, and length to make Kabutops broken under the rain. Kabutops is merely a Pokemon that is made powerful by this weather condition. It is, in fact, all Damp Rock's fault, as it has the perfect speed, damage, and length to make Kabutops overpowered.

You admit that Kabutops is only overpowered under the rain. Why, then, are you trying to remove Kabutops, already established to have other uses besides rain, instead of the supporting condition? Especially when it is seen that other Pokemon have similar (although not quite as powerful) boosts from the Rain? Do you have something personally against Kabutops? I really can't figure it out. You're trying to ban a Pokemon instead of an item. If Rain Dance continues to be too good, you'll probably ban several, since you seem to be incapable of banning a single item. You want to remove Pokemon from the metagame rather than a single playstyle completely devoid of variance. That's in no way going to help good gameplay.

 

[capefeather]

Honestly, all you guys are doing against RBG's argument is making an at best equally viable argument. It can honestly go both ways. Stop acting like your argument's so much better than RBG's is.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Untrue, Capefeather. Let me quote from my (much larger) post on the previous page.

Let's take a Pokemon like Kabutops:

Is Pokemon X broken without supporting condition Y? No.
Is Pokemon X broken with supporting condition Y? Yes.

So why would it suddenly be the Pokemon that's broken? The ONLY variable you're changing is the supporting condition.
And don't say "well if Kabutops is broken in rain but not Lumineon, why shouldn't we just ban Kabutops?", because that argument borders on facetious. Shitty Pokemon should never be taken into account when evaluating whether something meets the support clause. If someone nominates Deoxys-S under the Support characteristic in UU (work with me here) and you say "Okay, fine, it greatly helps Moltres and Swellow sweep, but what if someone used Luvdisc with spikes support? Clearly, Luvdisc could not sweep through a significant portion of the metagame, therefore Deoxys-S isn't broken in UU". Do you see where I'm going?

I have not seen anyone address this, or any other part of that post (besides Heysup, who I replied to).

RBG's argument essentially boils down to "rain as a support condition only benefits good sweepers".
He mentions Kabutops, but SD Ludicolo is arguably more broken (Kabutops isn't getting past Slowbro, Toxicroak or Poliwrath, SD Ludicolo wrecks all of them and beats anything Kabutops can beat except priority) and, in terms of sheer power, no swift swimmer can match Specs Gorebyss or Specs Omastar. And of course there's Qwilfish, who can actually explode on any of its (and therefore other rain members') counters, making the team's job overall much easier.

All of those above Pokemon are as broken or more broken than Kabutops under rain, as every single one of them can "sweep through a significant portion of the metagame". Meaning, given RBG's argument, we'd have to ban all of them.

This sort of situation, where one Pokemon or aspect of the metagame breaks multiple Pokemon (who, without that aspect, would otherwise not be broken) is what the Support clause was made for.

To sum this whole thing up, there are currently two arguments against voting for Damp Rock as broken under the support clause:

1) How do we know it's Damp Rock and not rain itself?
2) How do we know it's not Damp Rock and not the sweepers themselves?

To me, point number 1 is the only relevant concern, which is why I asked people to test it, and will probably be testing it myself. Point number 2 is not. We know it's the supporting condition and not the sweepers for precisely the conditions I outlined in my previous post. Stating "this supporting condition doesn't break bad Pokemon, only good ones", which is essentially the crux of the issue for people who want to ban the swift swimmers themselves, is absolutely not a viable argument. If it were, then nothing should be banned under the Support characteristic, ever.

Edit to avoid Double Post: I just made a rain team without Damp Rock. It has all the sweepers people have been putting forth as "broken", almost all of whom can set up their own rain (more efficient than letting a wall set it up and switching) and one wallish rain setter appropriate to a rain team (Weezing), used as a midgame pivot and to set up rain for Ludicolo (who needs SD and three moves). It's a solid team.
I've played one game with it so far and once rain stopped I was swept by an SD Venusaur (I boomed on Milotic with Weezing). I don't forsee this going too well. I forgot to save the log for that game, but I'll be posting more later on. If anyone wants to also make a team and test it because they think I'm biased or whatever, they can feel free.

 

[PK Gaming]

Here is a log of me vs a Damp Rockless Rain dance team
comments have been removed until the end.



Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
PK Gaming sent out Ultima (lvl 100 Uxie).
RainFlare sent out Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Kandy used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Ultima used Thunder Wave.
Kandy is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Ultima used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Kandy used Waterfall.
Ultima lost 45% of its health.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Ultima's leftovers restored its health a little!
Ultima restored 6% of its health.
---

PK Gaming switched in Quake (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Quake lost 42% of its health.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Quake's leftovers restored its health a little!
Quake restored 6% of its health.
---

RainFlare switched in Willow (lvl 100 Weezing ?).
Pointed stones dug into Willow.
Willow lost 12% of its health.
Quake used Energy Ball.
It's not very effective...
Willow lost 15% of its health.
Willow's special defence was lowered.
The rain continues to fall.
Quake's leftovers restored its health a little!
Quake restored 6% of its health.
Willow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Willow restored 6% of its health.
---
PK Gaming switched in Flare (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Willow used Thunder.
It's super effective!
Flare lost 38% of its health.
Flare is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
The rain stopped.
Willow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Willow restored 6% of its health.
---
Willow used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Flare used Surf.
Willow lost 85% of its health.
RainFlare's Willow fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
RainFlare switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lamia.
Lamia lost 12% of its health.
PK Gaming switched in Quake (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Lamia used Swords Dance.
Lamia's attack was sharply raised.
The rain continues to fall.
Quake's leftovers restored its health a little!
Quake restored 6% of its health.
---
Lamia used Zen Headbutt.
It's super effective!
Quake lost 76% of its health.
PK Gaming's Quake fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
PK Gaming switched in Gravitron (lvl 100 Umbreon ?).
Gravitron used Sucker Punch.
Lamia lost 41% of its health.
Lamia used Waterfall.
Gravitron lost 97% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Gravitron's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gravitron restored 6% of its health.
---
Gravitron used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
Lamia used Swords Dance.
Lamia's attack was sharply raised.
The rain stopped.
Gravitron's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gravitron restored 6% of its health.
---
Gravitron used Sucker Punch.
Lamia lost 28% of its health.
RainFlare's Lamia fainted.
Gravitron's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gravitron restored 6% of its health.
---
RainFlare switched in Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Pointed stones dug into Quinn.
Quinn lost 12% of its health.
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Gravitron used Payback.
Quinn lost 54% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Gravitron's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gravitron restored 6% of its health.
---
RainFlare switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
Gravitron used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
Gravitron's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gravitron restored 6% of its health.
---
Gravitron used Payback.
Kandy lost 20% of its health.
Kandy used Waterfall.
Gravitron lost 33% of its health.
PK Gaming's Gravitron fainted.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
PK Gaming switched in Tornado (lvl 100 Hitmontop ?).
Tornado used Mach Punch.
It's super effective!
Kandy lost 39% of its health.
RainFlare's Kandy fainted.
Tornado lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
RainFlare switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
Tornado used Mach Punch.
Gabriella lost 45% of its health.
Tornado lost 10% of its health.
Gabriella used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Tornado lost 80% of its health.
PK Gaming's Tornado fainted.
Gabriella lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
PK Gaming switched in Thundaga (lvl 100 Raichu ?).
Thundaga used Volt Tackle.
It's super effective!
Gabriella lost 33% of its health.
RainFlare's Gabriella fainted.
Thundaga was hit by recoil!
Thundaga lost 10% of its health.
Thundaga's leftovers restored its health a little!
Thundaga restored 6% of its health.
---
RainFlare switched in Olive (lvl 100 Omastar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Olive.
Olive lost 12% of its health.
Thundaga used Volt Tackle.
It's super effective!
Olive lost 87% of its health.
RainFlare's Olive fainted.
Thundaga was hit by recoil!
Thundaga lost 33% of its health.
Thundaga's leftovers restored its health a little!
Thundaga restored 6% of its health.
---
RainFlare switched in Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Pointed stones dug into Quinn.
Quinn lost 12% of its health.
Thundaga used Volt Tackle.
It's super effective!
Quinn lost 21% of its health.
RainFlare's Quinn fainted.
PK Gaming wins!
RainFlare: gg mate
PK Gaming: gg
PK Gaming: save log?
RainFlare: Yeah
RainFlare: and post it please
RainFlare: And if you could comment on the game



The match would have easily been game for for RainFlare had he been using Damp Rock. The fact that I was using Sucker Punch Umbreon was just a fluke, as I managed to kill Luddicolo early on. Luddicolo arguably would have ripped right through my team. ESPECIALLY with damp rock boosting it's turns to sweep.
(In my opinion, Luddicolo>Kabutops.)

He only had a few turns to capitalize on the few turns provided by the rain, and often times the short amount of turn was not enough. Without rain, I find that the Rain dance sweepers are simply too slow to sweep and can easily be outspaced.

Rain Dance also had to be used a total of 3 times.

Finally, I am not one to beat myself up, but I don't consider myself to be that good of a battler, especially against the likes of someone like Flareblitz.

 

[Bluewind]

Only as an add, please put Hide tags around the log, so that it doesn't take much space on the post.
Also, I think the log speaks for itself now...

 

[shrang]

Damp rock banned.
Uxie (say) is in, sets up Rain Dance (1st turn of rain).
Uxie U-turns out to Kabutops (2nd turn of rain).
Kabutops Swords Dances (3rd turn of rain).
Defender switches in Water resist to sponge Waterfall (4th turn of rain).
Defender sacrifices a Pokemon to Kabutops (last turn of rain).

Now Kabutops is entirely vulnerable. It's got no rain, no speed, and it's at risk of dying to whatever switches in next. +2 Adamant max Attack Life Orb Aqua Jet will hardly scratch Venusaur for example. It's gotten a kill, but Pokemon faint in Pokemon battles and there's nothing special about this one. Now it's forced to switch out. On the other hand, if rain were still up then Kabutops would be free to use the much more powerful Waterfall (rain boosted too) to force his way past Venusaur. You have to survive Kabutops for much longer with Damp Rock than without.

It's not completely vulnerable. If this became the scenario, people can easily elect to run max speed and Jolly on Kabutops, so at worst, can speed-tie with base 80s and still OHKO them without the Rain. Let's look at the Pokemon that can speed-tie or outspeed Kabutops out of rain (Just UU), bold are ones Kabutops can normally beat:

All calculations are done for a Jolly 252 Atk Kabutops:
*Altaria (Can't really threaten Kabutops much anyway)
*Blaziken (Must win speed-tie for Vacuum Wave)
*Drifblim
*Kabutops itself
*Mesprit
*Venusaur
Milotic (Doesn't usually run Max speed anyway)
Toxicroak
Qwilfish
Nidoking
^Cresselia
Hitmonlee (Jolly +2 LO Aqua Jet still OHKOs 40/0 variants, although Hitmonlee can Mach Punch, will not kill if Kabutops is in good health)
^Porygon-Z
^Moltres
Rotom
Uxie (Doesn't usually run max speed)
Leafeon
Houndoom
Drapion
Arcanine (Aqua Jet OHKOs Morning Glory Arcanine after Stealth Rock, even after Intimidate)
Scyther (Aqua Jet OHKOs after Stealth Rock, but that's kinda whatever, as Scyther takes 50% from it anyway)
Mismagius (Aqua Jet OHKOs sweeper sets after Stealth Rock)
Froslass (Can kill with +2 Stone Edge, but you'll probably end up Destiny Bonded)
^Raikou
Ambipom (Has slight chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, and will definitely OHKO after SR and Spikes, however, that's probably a bit too much. Also gets Faked Out first turn, which Kabutops resists)
Sceptile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
Swellow

^ Denotes a suspect
* Denotes Pokemon Kabutops speed-ties with

So, as you see, Kabutops can rape quite a lot of Pokemon faster than it even without Rain, and this is not to mention those poor fools that he outspeeds. He is still sweeping a big portion of the metagame, even without Rain. So, is Kabutops broken?? Possibly, and Rain does push him over the edge, yeah.

 

[ToF]

Also, I think the log speaks for itself now...

I think all that log showed me was how poorly a constructed rain team the user was using. Thunder Weezing, that's all that needs to be said about that log. He also made errors in the actual game, such as Swords Dancing again on Umbreon with Ludicolo instead of going back to Kabutops who can take whatever attack Umbreon throws. Ludicolo would have done fine against Raichu provided the player played better.