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Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

OK proof incoming, neysayers run for the hills.

Over the last 30 mins or so, Flareblitz graciously took the time to run many Rain tests with me to get the logs you people so desperately desire. Without further ado, i present..

LOG1: Damp rock Equipped. (comments contained inside to force you to read it)

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
FlareTroll: All right. Here we go
HEA-RT-LESS has entered the room.
Uxie used Thunder Wave.
Quinn is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Uxie used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Quinn used Explosion.
Uxie lost 83% of its health.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
Smurf.: oh no it seems like a rain team, whatever will i do?
FlareTroll: xD
Gabriella used Surf.
Uxie lost 23% of its health.
Smurf.'s Uxie fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 55% of its health.
Azumarill used Substitute.
Azumarill lost 25% of its health.
Azumarill made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Azumarill is tightening its focus!
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Caroline.
Caroline lost 12% of its health.
Azumarill used Focus Punch.
It's not very effective...
Caroline lost 19% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Caroline used Psychic.
The substitute took damage for Azumarill!
Azumarill's substitute faded!
Azumarill used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Caroline lost 69% of its health.
FlareTroll's Caroline fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lamia.
Lamia lost 12% of its health.
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Lamia lost 14% of its health.
Lamia used Seed Bomb.
It's super effective!
Azumarill lost 39% of its health.
Smurf.'s Azumarill fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Smurf.: check pm btw
FlareTroll: kk
FlareTroll: Uh I don't have any @.@
Absol used Sucker Punch.
Lamia lost 64% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Misty.
Misty lost 12% of its health.
HEA-RT-LESS has left the room.
FlareTroll: <_<
Smurf.: damn 'rain counter' stuck in choice
Smurf.: counter? or set up bait?
FlareTroll: xD
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Misty used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Misty lost 53% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Misty used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Alakazam lost 90% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol used Sucker Punch.
Gabriella lost 61% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
Absol lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Gabriella used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 65% of its health.
Venusaur used Earthquake.
Gabriella lost 14% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
Venusaur lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
FlareTroll: OH LOOK
FlareTroll: RAIN DIDN'T RUN OUT
FlareTroll: AND FUCK ME
FlareTroll: WOOO
Smurf.: lol
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 25% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll: You woulda won here
FlareTroll: If there had been no damp rock
Smurf.: @syrne, perhaps i should run 6 RAIN COUNTERS to ADAPT
FlareTroll: sac rhyperior, rain woulda ran out
FlareTroll: back to venu
FlareTroll: Done.
Smurf. switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Rhyperior fainted.
FlareTroll wins!
FlareTroll: gg.
Smurf.: gg


LOG2: Damp Rock Absent (N.B this is not the log i intended to use.. I forgot to save the one where i 6-0'd Flareblitz, he as can many others are able to confirm)

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Quinn lost 82% of its health.
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Quinn used Explosion.
Uxie lost 78% of its health.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
Uxie used Psychic.
But there was no target!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Gabriella used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 46% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 54% of its health.
Azumarill used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Gabriella lost 53% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: This thing is kinda fucked up
FlareTroll: this isn't even specs
FlareTroll: And what the fuck was that?!
FlareTroll: Lol I must have rolled absolute max damage on surf
FlareTroll: and then absolute min on hydro pump
Smurf.: lol
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Gabriella lost 47% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
The rain stopped.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: ..xP
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Lamia lost 9% of its health.
Lamia used Seed Bomb.
It's super effective!
Azumarill lost 18% of its health.
Smurf.'s Azumarill fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
HEA-RT-LESS has entered the room.
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Misty lost 57% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Misty's leftovers restored its health a little!
Misty restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Misty lost 49% of its health.
FlareTroll's Misty fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Caroline lost 36% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Caroline used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
Caroline used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Caroline lost 76% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Caroline used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Caroline lost 6% of its health.
FlareTroll's Caroline fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Kandy used Waterfall.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll: Pretty sure an SD venusaur will sweep me now.
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
FlareTroll: Yup
Venusaur used Power Whip.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 36% of its health.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: ...
Venusaur used Power Whip.
It's super effective!
Kandy lost 80% of its health.
FlareTroll's Kandy fainted.
Venusaur lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: Should rained there
FlareTroll: didn't think it would miss tho
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
FlareTroll: Still woulda lost
HEA-RT-LESS: I think its clear
Smurf.: well, all in all i think the lesson here is to notice the ABSENCE of RAIN due to DAMP ROCK
HEA-RT-LESS: that Rain sucks without Damp Rock
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Lamia used Zen Headbutt.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 54% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
FlareTroll: .............
Absol used Night Slash.
Lamia lost 57% of its health.
Lamia used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Absol lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: What the fuck
Smurf. switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Lamia used Waterfall.
Uxie lost 25% of its health.
Lamia lost 4% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
Smurf. wins!
FlareTroll: gg
HEA-RT-LESS has left the room.
Smurf.: gg
FlareTroll: Okay

LOG3: For the lols XD (If you think RD is useless without damp rock, think again, cuz hax loves Rain.)


Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Quinn lost 86% of its health.
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Quinn used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Quinn used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Rhyperior fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun has entered the room.
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Azumarill was hurt by Spikes!
Azumarill lost 12% of its health.
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Quinn lost 14% of its health.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Smurf. switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Lamia used Swords Dance.
Lamia's attack was sharply raised.
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll: <___<
FlareTroll: Sure do wish it was DAMPER in here
Lamia used Waterfall.
Uxie lost 50% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
Uxie used Thunder Wave.
Lamia is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Smurf.: yep
Smurf.: hello ToF!!
FlareTroll: o.o
Smurf.: Syrne!!
FlareTroll: lol
Uxie used Psychic.
Lamia lost 28% of its health.
Lamia's special defence was lowered.
Lamia used Waterfall.
Uxie lost 51% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Uxie used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
Misty lost 9% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
Misty's leftovers restored its health a little!
Misty restored 6% of its health.
---
Uxie used Thunder Wave.
Misty is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Misty used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
Misty's leftovers restored its health a little!
Misty restored 2% of its health.
---
Uxie used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Misty used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 24% of its health.
Smurf.'s Uxie fainted.
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Azumarill was hurt by Spikes!
Azumarill lost 12% of its health.
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 60% of its health.
Azumarill used Substitute.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Gabriella lost 25% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 27% of its health.
Smurf.'s Azumarill fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol was hurt by Spikes!
Absol lost 12% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
Absol lost 87% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
The rain stopped.
---
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Alakazam was hurt by Spikes!
Alakazam lost 12% of its health.
Alakazam used Psychic.
Gabriella lost 63% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Misty.
Misty lost 12% of its health.
HEA-RT-LESS has entered the room.
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Misty lost 88% of its health.
FlareTroll's Misty fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Caroline.
Caroline lost 12% of its health.
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Caroline lost 37% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Caroline used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
Caroline used Lunar Dance.
FlareTroll's Caroline fainted.
FlareTroll: :3
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lamia.
Lamia lost 12% of its health.
Lamia restored 60% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Lamia used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Lamia lost 82% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Lamia used Waterfall.
Alakazam lost 23% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Venusaur was hurt by Spikes!
Venusaur lost 12% of its health.
Lamia used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Venusaur lost 85% of its health.
Lamia lost 9% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
Venusaur flinched!
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll: Oof
Golden Sun: ouch
FlareTroll: This would have been yours if not for that crit
FlareTroll: Wait
FlareTroll: This still is yours
FlareTroll: I had to drop aqua jet on kabu for rain dance
Smurf.: what are the odds of a kabutops without AJ
FlareTroll: BECAUSE I HAVE NO DAMP ROCK
FlareTroll: <____<
Smurf.: lol
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur used Power Whip.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 3% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
FlareTroll wins!
FlareTroll: ...
HEA-RT-LESS: lol
FlareTroll: lol
Golden Sun: or is it
Golden Sun: lol
Smurf.: yeh not broken fo sure
FlareTroll: >____>
HEA-RT-LESS: this remind sme of our match
Smurf.: SARCASM
FlareTroll: Well that was awkward.
Golden Sun has left the room.
Smurf.: infract me
Smurf.: i'll save this for the lols
FlareTroll: No post it
FlareTroll: It'll be funny
 
FlareBlitz said:
@Synre

I didn't mean it to sound like I was saying "my way of playing rain is the best way", but that it's better than the hyper-offensive "throw sweepers at them until they lose" method most rain players use. Even you made intelligent switches when necessary, although not as many switches as me (which is to be expected since you had more frail sweepers who can't really take hits). Most rain players seem adamant to keep in their current Pokemon because switching would "cost them turns".
This is why I believe your criticism of players refusing to adapt to rain players is so interesting, because I feel the exact same way about rain players themselves. Adaptation works both ways, and I find it odd that some individuals (such as psycho) basically instantly lose against rain (not really a criticism against him, but every game I play against him he seems to make very predictable moves...and you can't win against rain like that) and some rain players instantly lose against any team with a Toxicroak or Poliwrath because they don't know how to play around it.
Click to expand...

I think it's really interesting that we disagree with each other about the best course of action here because we have basically the exact same perspective on how rain is working in the metagame, lol. Working toward different goals, I guess.

I think the above examples (including our games) prove one major reason I think rain should be sticking around for now: the better player still usually wins the game. In your examples the right thing happens every game... the player who is thinking the most wins. Rain's opponent doesn't adapt? Rain wins. Rain doesn't adapt to opponent's adaptations? Opponent wins. That's the game, really, and I don't think it's as team vs. team as it is player vs. player. It's part of the process to change your team when you can't deal with common threats, but every team has weaknesses, too. The team who does a better job of playing around its weaknesses is winning here, which is what I would expect to happen with a team that fits in the metagame.

Part of why I really hate how much whining there is about rain right now goes back to your point about how stupid most rain users are. Many of them have really poorly constructed teams. They're using poor rain set-up Pokemon choices, sweepers with inferior sets or inferior sweepers all together, neglecting not to use good Pokemon (those of you not using Qwilfish right now might want to think long and hard about that choice), and playing predictable games. Those players are winning more than they should, which would worry me except they still aren't beating anyone with a brain. I don't care if that type of player is 1400 instead of 1350, frankly. If players are completely unprepared for a common style that even a poorly constructed and executed version of it (see: almost every rain team on the ladder that isn't being executed by someone in this topic), the problem isn't the rain, it's the opponent. That's not to say that the better played and designed rain teams are any more unstoppable (I know that, for instance, neither of us are topping the ladder right now), but it worries me when people seem to be complaining about every team and about rain in general when it simply isn't that dominant of a strategy.

I need to start saving more logs but I am slowly collecting logs of losses to quality players who I don't feel have super anti-rain teams. Stylistically I probably need to be the one who adjusts now against them, but as "one of those good players who are using rain see its broken I swear!" I don't have any issues admitting I'm losing my share of games too. It is not as though I get some magical rain aura and win every game for free. It's great at sweeping bad players, but you'll notice my rating, too, is basically what it is every period. I bounce between 10 and 30 or so on the leaderboard, as per usual.

psycho is a funny example I love bringing up, though. If there is something I love about rain it is that it absolutely punishes player who don't predict, and the fact he got so high simply playing the obvious decision game to begin with is really worrying to me.


FlareBlitz said:
Ultimately, my point is that if players current unprepared for rain adapt, then it's possible that players unprepared for teams who have good rain checks adapt, meaning we're right back where we started; it will end up being an unstable equilibrium. That's total theorymon, of course, but it seems like what'll happen if we assume that all players are at least somewhat intelligent and competitive.
Click to expand...

That's Pokemon though, I think. People adjust to what's the most popular at any given time to give themselves the best chance at winning. Some people will run the same team for months, more people will shift to try to give themselves the best chances of winning at any given time, especially on something like the ladder where you're both trying to win consistently against common threats and have a relatively small and predictable pool of potential opponents.


shrang said:
And you, my friend are only toting statements like "Rain is broken" without much proof, either. You sound much more emotional than analytic (Your Suspect nomination was pretty good, what happened to your abilities to argue to a case?? Seems like they have gone out the window). Yes, FlareBlitz has beaten you (And others) multiple times with his rain team, but have you ever considered the fact that he simply outplayed you instead of "Rain team being broken"?? Rain counters being "flimsy" doesn't always mean it's broken either.
Click to expand...

shrang]I am going to quote this for emphasis said:
Actually it's quite the opposite of what you said. Rain is probably the easiest team to adapt to. It is one dimensional; you won't be able to play around the counter used. There are so many Pokemon that counter Rain Dancers without specializing, such as Venusaur, Absol, Hitmontop, Registeel, and others.
Click to expand...


Quoting the above because they are true and have been posted before so maybe people will read them if I repost them yeah!

Heysup said:
Welcome to the UU Subforum, where you can tell us things 1000s of times and we won't listen.
Click to expand...

can we please make this the forum description


Smurf.: @syrne, perhaps i should run 6 RAIN COUNTERS to ADAPT
Click to expand...

I need to bother to read that post since you posted while I was posted, but I think this needs to be said:

Do you honestly think you're convincing anyone with this type of immaturity? You're doing the same shit in the Froslass thread. Get a grip, kid. No one is taking you seriously because you're acting like a child. Debate the issue, not the debaters. Grow up.
 
FlareTroll: Pretty sure an SD venusaur will sweep me now.
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
FlareTroll: Yup
Venusaur used Power Whip.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 36% of its health.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
Click to expand...

Just this bit, when will people learn to run Jolly Kabutops just to at least speed-tie with Base 80s?? Kabutops can sweep without Rain, you know. Using Waterfall on Venusaur when there is no rain instead of Stone Edge?? Are you trying to lose to prove Damp Rock is the real culprit here?? In that scenario, winning a Speed tie and Stone Edging the Venusaur would still have allowed Kabutops to sweep Smurf's team. A misplay and maybe different EVs could still have allowed Flare to win there, so that really doesn't prove Damp Rock is responsible (From that log) at all.
 
Smurf. said:
OK proof incoming, neysayers run for the hills.

Over the last 30 mins or so, Flareblitz graciously took the time to run many Rain tests with me to get the logs you people so desperately desire. Without further ado, i present..

LOG1: Damp rock Equipped. (comments contained inside to force you to read it)

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
FlareTroll: All right. Here we go
HEA-RT-LESS has entered the room.
Uxie used Thunder Wave.
Quinn is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Uxie used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Quinn used Explosion.
Uxie lost 83% of its health.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
Smurf.: oh no it seems like a rain team, whatever will i do?
FlareTroll: xD
Gabriella used Surf.
Uxie lost 23% of its health.
Smurf.'s Uxie fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 55% of its health.
Azumarill used Substitute.
Azumarill lost 25% of its health.
Azumarill made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Azumarill is tightening its focus!
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Caroline.
Caroline lost 12% of its health.
Azumarill used Focus Punch.
It's not very effective...
Caroline lost 19% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Caroline used Psychic.
The substitute took damage for Azumarill!
Azumarill's substitute faded!
Azumarill used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Caroline lost 69% of its health.
FlareTroll's Caroline fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lamia.
Lamia lost 12% of its health.
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Lamia lost 14% of its health.
Lamia used Seed Bomb.
It's super effective!
Azumarill lost 39% of its health.
Smurf.'s Azumarill fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Smurf.: check pm btw
FlareTroll: kk
FlareTroll: Uh I don't have any @.@
Absol used Sucker Punch.
Lamia lost 64% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Misty.
Misty lost 12% of its health.
HEA-RT-LESS has left the room.
FlareTroll: <_<
Smurf.: damn 'rain counter' stuck in choice
Smurf.: counter? or set up bait?
FlareTroll: xD
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Misty used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Misty lost 53% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Misty used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Alakazam lost 90% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol used Sucker Punch.
Gabriella lost 61% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
Absol lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Gabriella used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 65% of its health.
Venusaur used Earthquake.
Gabriella lost 14% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
Venusaur lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
FlareTroll: OH LOOK
FlareTroll: RAIN DIDN'T RUN OUT
FlareTroll: AND FUCK ME
FlareTroll: WOOO
Smurf.: lol
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 25% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll: You woulda won here
FlareTroll: If there had been no damp rock
Smurf.: @syrne, perhaps i should run 6 RAIN COUNTERS to ADAPT
FlareTroll: sac rhyperior, rain woulda ran out
FlareTroll: back to venu
FlareTroll: Done.
Smurf. switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Rhyperior fainted.
FlareTroll wins!
FlareTroll: gg.
Smurf.: gg


LOG2: Damp Rock Absent (N.B this is not the log i intended to use.. I forgot to save the one where i 6-0'd Flareblitz, he as can many others are able to confirm)

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Quinn lost 82% of its health.
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Quinn used Explosion.
Uxie lost 78% of its health.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
Uxie used Psychic.
But there was no target!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Gabriella used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 46% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 54% of its health.
Azumarill used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Gabriella lost 53% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: This thing is kinda fucked up
FlareTroll: this isn't even specs
FlareTroll: And what the fuck was that?!
FlareTroll: Lol I must have rolled absolute max damage on surf
FlareTroll: and then absolute min on hydro pump
Smurf.: lol
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Gabriella lost 47% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
The rain stopped.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: ..xP
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Lamia lost 9% of its health.
Lamia used Seed Bomb.
It's super effective!
Azumarill lost 18% of its health.
Smurf.'s Azumarill fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
HEA-RT-LESS has entered the room.
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Misty lost 57% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Misty's leftovers restored its health a little!
Misty restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Misty lost 49% of its health.
FlareTroll's Misty fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Caroline lost 36% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Caroline used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
Caroline used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Caroline lost 76% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Caroline used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Caroline lost 6% of its health.
FlareTroll's Caroline fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Kandy used Waterfall.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll: Pretty sure an SD venusaur will sweep me now.
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
FlareTroll: Yup
Venusaur used Power Whip.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 36% of its health.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: ...
Venusaur used Power Whip.
It's super effective!
Kandy lost 80% of its health.
FlareTroll's Kandy fainted.
Venusaur lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: Should rained there
FlareTroll: didn't think it would miss tho
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
FlareTroll: Still woulda lost
HEA-RT-LESS: I think its clear
Smurf.: well, all in all i think the lesson here is to notice the ABSENCE of RAIN due to DAMP ROCK
HEA-RT-LESS: that Rain sucks without Damp Rock
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Lamia used Zen Headbutt.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 54% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
FlareTroll: .............
Absol used Night Slash.
Lamia lost 57% of its health.
Lamia used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Absol lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll: What the fuck
Smurf. switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Lamia used Waterfall.
Uxie lost 25% of its health.
Lamia lost 4% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
Smurf. wins!
FlareTroll: gg
HEA-RT-LESS has left the room.
Smurf.: gg
FlareTroll: Okay

LOG3: For the lols XD (If you think RD is useless without damp rock, think again, cuz hax loves Rain.)


Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Quinn lost 86% of its health.
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Quinn used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Quinn used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 100% of its health.
Smurf.'s Rhyperior fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun has entered the room.
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Azumarill was hurt by Spikes!
Azumarill lost 12% of its health.
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Quinn lost 14% of its health.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Smurf. switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Lamia used Swords Dance.
Lamia's attack was sharply raised.
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll: <___<
FlareTroll: Sure do wish it was DAMPER in here
Lamia used Waterfall.
Uxie lost 50% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
Uxie used Thunder Wave.
Lamia is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Smurf.: yep
Smurf.: hello ToF!!
FlareTroll: o.o
Smurf.: Syrne!!
FlareTroll: lol
Uxie used Psychic.
Lamia lost 28% of its health.
Lamia's special defence was lowered.
Lamia used Waterfall.
Uxie lost 51% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Uxie used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
Misty lost 9% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
Misty's leftovers restored its health a little!
Misty restored 6% of its health.
---
Uxie used Thunder Wave.
Misty is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Misty used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
Misty's leftovers restored its health a little!
Misty restored 2% of its health.
---
Uxie used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Misty used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 24% of its health.
Smurf.'s Uxie fainted.
FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Azumarill was hurt by Spikes!
Azumarill lost 12% of its health.
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 60% of its health.
Azumarill used Substitute.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
Azumarill's leftovers restored its health a little!
Azumarill restored 6% of its health.
---
Azumarill used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Gabriella lost 25% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 27% of its health.
Smurf.'s Azumarill fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol was hurt by Spikes!
Absol lost 12% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
Absol lost 87% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
The rain stopped.
---
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Alakazam was hurt by Spikes!
Alakazam lost 12% of its health.
Alakazam used Psychic.
Gabriella lost 63% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Misty.
Misty lost 12% of its health.
HEA-RT-LESS has entered the room.
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Misty lost 88% of its health.
FlareTroll's Misty fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Caroline.
Caroline lost 12% of its health.
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Caroline lost 37% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
Caroline used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
Caroline used Lunar Dance.
FlareTroll's Caroline fainted.
FlareTroll: :3
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lamia.
Lamia lost 12% of its health.
Lamia restored 60% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Lamia used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Lamia lost 82% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Lamia used Waterfall.
Alakazam lost 23% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Venusaur was hurt by Spikes!
Venusaur lost 12% of its health.
Lamia used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Venusaur lost 85% of its health.
Lamia lost 9% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
Venusaur flinched!
The rain stopped.
---
FlareTroll: Oof
Golden Sun: ouch
FlareTroll: This would have been yours if not for that crit
FlareTroll: Wait
FlareTroll: This still is yours
FlareTroll: I had to drop aqua jet on kabu for rain dance
Smurf.: what are the odds of a kabutops without AJ
FlareTroll: BECAUSE I HAVE NO DAMP ROCK
FlareTroll: <____<
Smurf.: lol
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur used Power Whip.
Venusaur's attack missed!
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 3% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
FlareTroll wins!
FlareTroll: ...
HEA-RT-LESS: lol
FlareTroll: lol
Golden Sun: or is it
Golden Sun: lol
Smurf.: yeh not broken fo sure
FlareTroll: >____>
HEA-RT-LESS: this remind sme of our match
Smurf.: SARCASM
FlareTroll: Well that was awkward.
Golden Sun has left the room.
Smurf.: infract me
Smurf.: i'll save this for the lols
FlareTroll: No post it
FlareTroll: It'll be funny
Click to expand...


Lol.

I love how, even when Jabba said "post more than three logs", you go ahead and post exactly three logs.

And it's also bad when I can tell you're just playing it out as you want it to look. Confirmation Bias yet again. I took 15 straight matches and it proved my point. You took 3, played between two people who think they "know" Rain is broken. I wonder which ones are more relevant.....(but not really, as clearly mine are).

Additionally:
FlareTroll: I had to drop aqua jet on kabu for rain dance
FlareTroll: BECAUSE I HAVE NO DAMP ROCK
Click to expand...
This statement just clearly shows FlareBlitz was not even trying without Damp Rock. Taking Aqua Jet off Kabutops? Really? Changing your team misses the whole point of this anyway.

EDIT: And I didn't even read the logs...you were clearly playing it to look how you wanted.
 
Here is the thing with posting evidence. With the suspect process, the point is to be unbiased. The entire idea of what we do here is that we all look at the metagame objectively and try to make rational decisions about what is balanced and what is not to create the best game for everyone. You're making it pretty obvious you aren't keeping an open mind or trying to learn anything - you're just irrationally trying to prove you're "right" about a strategy you dislike.

You'd have a much better case if you'd removed your commentary, but "are you serious?" with most of this stuff...

Shrang beat me to a point, but obviously that still stands...

Game 1

Absol used Sucker Punch.
Lamia lost 64% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
Smurf.: damn 'rain counter' stuck in choice
Smurf.: counter? or set up bait?
Click to expand...

Well, for one, you could not have made the fact you were Sucker Punching there any more obvious, which made Flareblitz's next move easy. That is not the fault of the pokemon, it's the fault of the user. I probably wouldn't have chosen to sacrifice Ludicolo if I was in his shoes, but by making an obvious move and locking yourself in you just make the game that much easier for him to play. This is a great example of a situation where it is the player's fault he is at a disadvantage.

And of course, lol at the commentary.


Smurf. said:
I forgot to save the one where i 6-0'd Flareblitz, he as can many others are able to confirm)
Click to expand...


What? You didn't get the one that makes you seem the most correct? I'm disappointed!

Game 2

I think a lot of what caused this game to go the way it did was the fact FlareBlitz was choosing to use two pure psychic types to setup rain. He could not have made it any easier for you with Signal Beam Zam - that game was probably over before it started, damp rock or no. Especially since he chose to blow up his other set-up mon...

Game 3

Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol was hurt by Spikes!
Absol lost 12% of its health.
Gabriella used Surf.
Absol lost 87% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
Click to expand...

Whatever were you thinking?

And then of course, you lost the game because of bad luck. I'm not sure what you think you're proving with that log in particular, since you both got outplayed and got unlucky... of COURSE you were going to lose.
 
Heysup said:
Lol.

I love how, even when Jabba said "post more than three logs", you go ahead and post exactly three logs.

I have more logs of each category, all of which end similarly, give or take the occasional hax fest. Jabba's opinion on the amount of logs doesnt really interest me in the slightest. This is my position, and theres more than enough adequate information to be gathered from these 3 logs alone.

And it's also bad when I can tell you're just playing it out as you want it to look. Confirmation Bias yet again. I took 15 straight matches and it proved my point. You took 3, played between two people who think they "know" Rain is broken. I wonder which ones are more relevant.....(but not really, as clearly mine are).

I play to win. Flare plays to win. Obviously a neysayer trying to cling to straws.. No comment here whatsoever, you obviously are unable to comprehend any argument but your own
"You have a tendency to give one sided arguments"

The amount of irony here is enough to show up on seismographs.
Click to expand...

EDIT: And I didn't even read the logs...you were clearly playing it to look how you wanted.

LOL. this just sums up everything about you in a sentence.
Click to expand...
 
"That's the game, really, and I don't think it's as team vs. team as it is player vs. player. It's part of the process to change your team when you can't deal with common threats, but every team has weaknesses, too. The team who does a better job of playing around its weaknesses is winning here, which is what I would expect to happen with a team that fits in the metagame."

I would agree with you here, but part of my problem with this is that I beat players with rain that I know I wouldn't be able to beat with my normal bulky offense team.
Mawile is probably the best example. We're currently 6:1 or so in terms of wins/losses with my rain team, but he is able to consistently beat my bulky offense team with his stall team (and my bulky offense team is by no means bad). And it's not like he's a poor player or he refuses to predict or anything like that. Three of his Pokemon are solid rain checks, and he's decent at prediction (accounting for the fact that stall players in general tend to dislike prediction). Same with Bluewind (who usually trounces me) and others on the top of the ladder.
In fact, the only person who on the top of the ladder who has consistently beaten my team is Jamashawalker (Jak3, Luffie, etc). With all the others, we're either around half and half, or I consistently win. And the reason that scares is because I'm really not that good.
I'll tell you that when I first made my rain team, I was really unconvinced that it was broken; in fact, that's why I wanted to test it, to prove to people that it wasn't. But after playing some games and beating some people, I checked the leaderboard, and found out that some of them were REALLY high up there, I started to think that maybe it's a bit imbalanced. And the cause, I think, is that the nature of rain teams is such that they almost never have a bad matchup (because any team that can give rain a significantly bad matchup won't do well against normal teams).

One of the things I make sure I do when I make a team is to ensure that it's never significantly bad against any major playstyle. It doesn't have to be great against any of them, but it can't be utterly bad. Rain dance as a style takes that to an extreme. With rain, I have never run into a team that someone competent was using where I could say "well this was a bad team matchup". At the very very minimum, it's 50:50, where it comes down purely to skill and luck. More often, it's more like 60:40 or 65:35, where I have to pay slightly poorer than or be slightly less lucky than my opponent to win.
If I recall, one of the considerations in an Ideal Metagams is the maximization of the competitive principle. Bad team matchups happen, yes, but it is assumed that your team matching up badly against someone elses' is balanced out by theirs matching up badly against another person's. Rain never matches up badly, and that's really the primary reason I think it's broken (also why I thought Honchkrow was broken; none of its switchins could put it at a disadvantage, they could only neutralize its advantage).

Okay, I tend to ramble when it's late. Those are just my general thoughts on this whole issue, and I'll stop there before I crit you with a wall of text.

I will say a few things about the logs Smurf posted.

There were some concerns over the previous logs about my non-damp rock team being badly built. So this time, I used the exact same team, but I just replaced damp rock with an appropriate item, so no one can bitch about that.

Additionally, we played more matches than that, but many of them were VERY haxy (I don't even know what the ladder was on tonight) so we chose the ones that most clearly illustrated the difference between rain teams that use damp rock and rain teams that don't. There were a few situations there where damp rock saved my ass, and where lack of damp rock killed me, and these sorts of situations are common in many, many matches.

I also played matches with a few other people, who I asked post the logs here. Hopefully those will be up too.
 
Argh, stop posting before I'm done writing!

@Shrang
I do use Jolly Kabu, but I run 216 SPE on it instead of max. I like the extra HP to cushion priority (for instance, unboosted Mach Punch from Hitmontop sometimes fails to 2hko Kabu). I'm thinking of max speed, but the extra bulk has proven pretty significant in many cases.

@Heysup
I seriously can't believe you nitpicked that. I mentioned numerous times that you have to have rain dance on your sweepers if you don't have damp rock on your bulky setters. Having aqua jet on kabutops isn't nearly as useful compared to the ability to set up your own rain, in case you get switch-stalled (which will happen if you don't use Damp Rock).

@Syrne
Regarding Game 1, as I said, we played more games than the logs would suggest, and we were getting into mindgames at this point. Last time he used Superpower with Absol on my switch to Kabutops, which is why I elected to stay in this time (I figured he assumed he'd outspeed and use it again). However, I do agree with you in that choiced sucker punch isn't a great idea. That said, it's not particularly relevant, as anything else Absol would have done there would have guaranteed I win (since I stayed in).

Regarding game 2, I elected to use 2 psychic type rain setters because I value the ability to screw with toxicroak and poliwrath. Both of them are bulky enough to survive even SE hits anyway, so it doesn't bother me. Note, however, that the same pokes are in the team I used in game 1, so your criticism applies to both games anyway (and therefore isn't particularly relevant to the comparison).

Game 3 was just for fun. And again, regarding Absol, we were getting into mindgames.
 
FlareBlitz said:
I would agree with you here, but part of my problem with this is that I beat players with rain that I know I wouldn't be able to beat with my normal bulky offense team.
Click to expand...

Too be honest, that doesn't really mean that you're rain team is broken and your bulky offense team isn't.

What the crowd who thinks rain is broken needs to do is explain why it's actually "broken" not why they do better on the ladder with Rain than with regular Offense.

And, contrarily, I know I wouldn't be able to be many people with my Rain team than with my Offense team. However, I will say that my offense team is better than my Rain team. I don't doubt that it's the case with your teams as well.


FlareBlitz]I also played matches with a few other people said:
Argh, stop posting before I'm done writing!
Click to expand...
No u!
Flare Blitz said:
@Heysup
I seriously can't believe you nitpicked that. I mentioned numerous times that you have to have rain dance on your sweepers if you don't have damp rock on your bulky setters. Having aqua jet on kabutops isn't nearly as useful compared to the ability to set up your own rain, in case you get switch-stalled (which will happen if you don't use Damp Rock).
Click to expand...

Well I definitely didn't feel the need to do that and I won as many games without Damp Rock as with them.

Kabutops is quite an excellent sweeper even when Rain is gone. Aqua Jet is obviously a necessity otherwise you're raped by much too many Pokemon, especially Dugtrio.

Use your "best" rain team without Damp Rock, and with another item that helps the Pokemon. That's all you should change.
 
Heysup said:
FlareBlitz said:
I would agree with you here, but part of my problem with this is that I beat players with rain that I know I wouldn't be able to beat with my normal bulky offense team.
Too be honest, that doesn't really mean that you're rain team is broken and your bulky offense team isn't.
Click to expand...
Too be honest, that doesn't really mean that you're rain team is broken and your bulky offense team isn't.

What the crowd who thinks rain is broken needs to do is explain why it's actually "broken" not why they do better on the ladder with Rain than with regular Offense.

And, contrarily, I know I wouldn't be able to be many people with my Rain team than with my Offense team. However, I will say that my offense team is better than my Rain team. I don't doubt that it's the case with your teams as well.
Click to expand...

I think this is a really interesting (if unrelated) topic you guys have here. I think there's a certain playstyle rock paper scissors, but I think more of it is probably certain styles are more compatible with certain users. I know whistle mentioned he hasn't had much luck with rain, either, and he's an excellent player, and similarly Heysup is definitely much better off with his heavy offense team than with rain (though I wish he'd use rain so I could beat him more consistently). I think this is probably more an issue of styles being compatible with players than styles dominating other styles. Perhaps you're just better at playing a more offensive style than you have been?

I think in my own case, I feel like if I have a reasonably tested team and neither side has a great team match up, I can win every game. But "can" and "do" tend to vary, and I get outplayed sometimes, just as I outplay my opponent sometimes. Especially with as luck oriented as Gen 4 is, your results don't surprise me much... if anything, rain's strength is probably that it maximizes the value of luck. Usually, it has three pokemon with Waterfall, features few sub-100% accuracy moves, can benefit greatly from getting OHKOs from crits and practical OHKOs from flinches to avoid getting hit, but is unlikely to be impacted by luck the other way since everything that hits the sweepers is going to kill them for the most part anyway, unless you're SDing on something weaksauce or absorbing a priority strike.
 
FlareBlitz said:
Again, I never intended to use my leaderboard status to prove that rain was broken, merely that it wasn't "shitty".

Regardless of my feelings about rain's brokenness, it really is a fascinating playstyle simply because of how unexplored any tactics and playstyles beyond "yay i shoot water at you now" are, and how the style has the potential to flatten ANY other playstyle.
Click to expand...

I think someone needs to get to a high leaderboard position using a non Damp Rock team. Doesn't sound hard, that would negate a ton of your speculation. I'll get someone to do that, don't worry.

And it's a fascinating playstyle? Seriously, come on. Its the most basic piece of shit ever, no skill whatsoever, anyone with no knowledge of the tier can use it and win. This is of course no grounds to ban it, but that comment was just flat out wrong lol. I don't know how you can argue that rain requires a real amount of skill to use, when its just set-up, sweep, and repeat until you either win or lose.

Rain will never flatten stall by the way, not stall in a good players hands, just fyi ;)
 
Just played this game vs. FlareBlitz with his no Damp Rock team. I can safely say that without Damp Rock, Rain is simply a lot weaker to the point where it's borderline no longer versatile (he still won the first game with me because I made too many mistakes).

The team I used was this one, with Ice Beam substituted instead of Dragon Pulse.

Rules: Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Timed Battle
FlareTroll sent out Quinn (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Banedon sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Quinn lost 7% of its health.
Banedon switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Quinn used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.

Now I did know FlareBlitz wasn't running Damp Rock to begin the game with, but I can't exactly cheat can I? Qwilfish is a Spikes-setting Pokemon that usually means Rain Dance, so I go to Venusaur to force him to not lay Spikes. After all, when I played FlareBlitz a few days ago (he had Damp Rock), trading Stealth Rock + screens for him setting up 3 layers of Spikes was probably why I lost.

Quinn used Explosion.
Venusaur lost 103% of its health.
Banedon's Venusaur fainted.
FlareTroll's Quinn fainted.
The rain continues to fall.

Banedon: That sucks but
Banedon: If I predict you
Banedon: It'd be because of prior knowledge
FlareTroll: Yup.
Click to expand...

More or less sums it up. I can't switch to fodder because I don't know Qwilfish isn't running Damp Rock. Since he isn't it's logical to Explode now and bring in a stronger sweeper, but if he were running Damp Rock he can lay Spikes as I put him to sleep, and then switch out. Or, he can switch to some sleep absorber, then bring Qwilfish back later to lay Spikes. Damp Rock advantage #1: you have more time to do things.

FlareBlitz ran just enough attack EVs to OHKO Venusaur with Explosion, so props to him. Without Venusaur my team is very vulnerable to rain, sadly.

FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Banedon switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
FlareTroll switched in Lamia (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Milotic used Hidden Power.
Lamia lost 23% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

I try to get damage on Gorebyss, but FlareBlitz reads my mind and switches out to Ludicolo. With hindsight it was pretty obvious with Milotic at full health and rain still up.

Banedon switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Lamia used Swords Dance.
Lamia's attack was sharply raised.
The rain continues to fall.

Milotic is pretty much all I have left against Rain. I can't risk her dying to STAB Grass attacks. Cresselia can put up screens or paralyze Ludicolo. I don't have Stealth Rock up but still hope to use it later, so I keep Uxie in reserve.

Lamia used Waterfall.
Cresselia lost 76% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
Cresselia used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
The rain stopped.

FlareTroll: See now I get one turn of smacking things with Waterfall
FlareTroll: Instead of 3
FlareTroll: or 4
Click to expand...

I could've used Thunder Wave here but FlareBlitz might've chosen to save Ludicolo to break Milotic later in the game, so I chose the safe option and used Reflect. Poor Cresselia takes a huge hit from Waterfall. Too bad, Venusaur is dead after all and I can't switch to Milotic.

Here also is Damp Rock advantage #2. If FlareBlitz had another 3 turns of sweeping time, the game would practically be over. Cresselia would die and Milotic can't kill Ludicolo before Ludicolo kills her. I could go to Porygonz but Kabutops would come in and Aqua Jet Porygonz to the graveyard. Once Reflect goes down it would be a kill every turn. As it is, I've got a chance to come back.

Lamia used Waterfall.
Cresselia lost 28% of its health.
Banedon's Cresselia fainted.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
---
Banedon switched in Porygonz (lvl 100 Porygonz).
Lamia used Waterfall.
Porygonz lost 51% of its health.
Lamia lost 10% of its health.
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

For some reason I thought my Porygonz with no Speed EVs outsped a Ludicolo outside of rain. Of course it doesn't. Wasted 25% health. Now I'll have to kill Ludicolo next turn.

Lamia used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Tri Attack.
Lamia lost 72% of its health.
FlareTroll's Lamia fainted.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Porygonz used Recover.
Porygonz restored 50% of its health.
Misty used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

FlareBlitz switches in Mesprit to my Porygonz. Rain isn't up, so I've got two free turns while he puts it up and switches out. Hence I take the opportunity to Recover + set up a Sub, bringing Porygonz back from the brink of death to good health. I choose to Recover here, since if I Sub and he attacks I might simply waste Porygonz's life.

Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
Misty used U-turn.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

Without boosts from Ambipom I can't OHKO Kabutops, but I'm still behind a Substitute. I can stall out the rain turns however, and he only has 3 turns left of rain. One danger is Kabutops Swords Dances, but the first turn should be relatively safe (if he SDs and I attack, Kabutops is dead while Porygonz lives on). Also for reasons that will become clear later, FlareBlitz doesn't take that path.

Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
Porygonz's reflect wore off!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
The rain stopped.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

No more rain. I'm still behind a Sub. Kabutops is at 100%, but it hasn't Swords Danced. I'm free to switch to Milotic here, but I've still got a Substitute up so I'll use the turn to recover health. Milotic's HP Grass will in all likelihood OHKO Kabutops anyway.

Kandy used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Porygonz used Recover.
Porygonz restored 50% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

Riiiiiiiiight. So no wonder Kabutops didn't Swords Dance. It's carrying Rain Dance, which places severe limits on its movepool. If it has Waterfall + Rain Dance, then it only has two of the following three moves: Aqua Jet, Swords Dance and Stone Edge. Stone Edge is likely a given since he needs the coverage. If he had SD, then he doesn't have a priority move. Therefore if FlareBlitz had used SD, I could've kept Subbing till rain expired and Kabutops will be vulnerable. On the other hand if rain had been set up with Damp Rock, I wouldn't be able to spam Substitute without running out of health first. Damp rock advantage #3 and #4: you are a lot less vulnerable to Substitute stalling, and you don't have to carry Rain Dance on your sweepers.

Nonetheless I think FlareBlitz misplayed a little here because it was quite obvious I would keep using Substitute, so he might as well get the free boosts.

And so we go into some more Substitute stalling ...

Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

I'm going to break from the Substitute stalling here. Rain's gone on for 3 turns, with two more to go. Next turn FlareBlitz will break my sub, and one turn after that rain will end. There's no time like now to Recover and go to Milotic; staying in with Porygonz is just stalemate after all (and I'd run out of Substitute PP first)

Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Recover.
Porygonz restored 50% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
Banedon switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Kandy used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Milotic lost 38% of its health.
Kandy lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.

Milotic takes the Waterfall well and threatens Kabutops with HP Grass. Now if rain were still up then Kabutops is guaranteed to be faster, and it can Stone Edge (if it's willing to risk death). But rain isn't up anymore. Why not? Because FlareBlitz has no Damp Rock! And so we have Damp Rock advantage #5: your opponent has fewer options. Now Milotic may outspeed Kabutops - I specifically waited for rain to expire on this turn - and Kabutops can't KO with Stone Edge, leading to Damp Rock advantage #6: you don't have to run that much speed, i.e. you can afford to max attack EVs with Adamant.

On hindsight another thing I could've done was stall out the rain turns again, and then attack if FlareBlitz chooses to replenish rain.

FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Milotic used Hidden Power.
Caroline lost 11% of its health.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Caroline used Toxic.
Caroline's attack missed!
Milotic used Recover.
Milotic restored 50% of its health.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.

Kabutops doesn't stay in. Faced with another rain-inducing Pokemon I predicted a Rain Dance and chose to recover to full health. A lucky break here as Toxic misses, although if it didn't I think I'd still be well-off since he has no Damp Rock (= Toxic damage doesn't rack up) and it'd trigger Marvel Scale. Nevertheless I'm not tempting fate.

Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Caroline used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.

So FlareBlitz predicts I'd switch and uses RD. Oh well. Uxie has a free turn to put screens up. I go with Reflect here since if FlareBlitz has a special sweeper, Milotic would handle it quite well.

Uxie used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
Caroline used Toxic.
Uxie was badly poisoned!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie is hurt by poison!
Uxie lost 6% of its health.

Just as well, I get to put the other screen up. Uxie's not going to stay in long enough for Toxic to hurt too bad anyway.

FlareTroll switched in Misty (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Uxie used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie is hurt by poison!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.

I don't know what FlareBlitz is trying to achieve here, but it seems almost like he's not willing to go on the offensive with his short rain vs. my long screens. Uxie is Toxic'ed, and I haven't anymore screeners, so he might be able to stall the screens out first.

Uxie used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Misty used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 14% of its health.
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie is hurt by poison!
Uxie lost 19% of its health.

I don't know Mesprit's entire moveset, so I leave Uxie in - I didn't want to get hit by Toxic or Thunder Wave or other nasty stuff on the switch. FlareBlitz chooses to U-turn. Even super effective it doesn't hurt Uxie much with screens. He brings in Kabutops, not sure why but perhaps he's decided to take the offensive after all?

Banedon switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Kandy used Swords Dance.
Kandy's attack was sharply raised.
The rain stopped.

Screens and Stealth Rock both up - I have no reason to stay in. I could've U-turned but didn't want to take the hit if he attacked. I might need Uxie to refresh screens after all later. FlareBlitz Swords Dances, which means he doesn't have Aqua Jet. At this point +2 Stone Edge isn't going to KO Milotic with screens up, but I'm not going to take risks. Rain ended here, and although another 3 turns wouldn't have mattered in this case FlareBlitz would've had the option of using Kabutops earlier. Damp Rock advantage #7: in addition to restricting your opponent's options, you have more options yourself.

FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Caroline.
Caroline lost 12% of its health.
Milotic used Hidden Power.
Caroline lost 11% of its health.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.

For the second time this match FlareBlitz dodges to Cresselia on the HP Grass. Next time I'm going to Surf! For now though I can't hurt Cresselia fast enough with Milotic, so I'll go on the offensive. I've got one free turn while he puts up Rain Dance. Gogo Ambipom!

Banedon switched in Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Caroline used Toxic.
Ambipom was badly poisoned!
Ambipom is hurt by poison!
Ambipom lost 6% of its health.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.

-________________-

Nice Rain Dance FlareBlitz. Well at least I get to stop him from putting it up.

FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
Ambipom used Taunt.
Gabriella fell for the taunt!
Ambipom's leftovers restored its health a little!
Ambipom restored 6% of its health.
Ambipom is hurt by poison!
Ambipom lost 12% of its health.

FlareBlitz reads my response and switches out to another sweeper. Nonetheless, with screens up, a near-max Ambipom and no rain, I can at least pass an Agility.

Ambipom used Agility.
Ambipom's speed was sharply raised.
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
A critical hit!
Ambipom lost 108% of its health.
Banedon's Ambipom fainted.
Ambipom's reflect wore off!

Sometimes hax destroys the best of plans ... on the other hand, I've got a free switch in. FlareBlitz has run from HP Grass twice already this match, and there're no entry hazards up on my side, so perfect time to double switch.

Banedon switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
FlareTroll switched in Caroline (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Caroline.
Caroline lost 12% of its health.
Banedon switched in Porygonz (lvl 100 Porygonz).
Porygonz's light screen wore off!
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.

Awesome. I've got Recover and Substitute and Cresselia can't hurt me AND I get a free turn since he has to put up Rain Dance. I've got the momentum, something very rare against rain teams with Damp Rock.

Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
Caroline used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
Caroline's leftovers restored its health a little!
Caroline restored 6% of its health.
---
FlareTroll switched in Kandy (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kandy.
Kandy lost 12% of its health.
Porygonz used Tri Attack.
It's not very effective...
Kandy lost 52% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

Kabutops takes a big hit coming in. I could kill it now, but then Gorebyss would come back in and threaten Porygonz. Since rain lasts so short I can stall it out the same way I did earlier in the match. Gorebyss would be no threat when it finally comes in then.

Kandy used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
Kandy used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Substitute.
Porygonz lost 25% of its health.
Porygonz made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.
---
Kandy used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Porygonz!
Porygonz's substitute faded!
Porygonz used Tri Attack.
It's not very effective...
Kandy lost 54% of its health.
FlareTroll's Kandy fainted.
The rain stopped.
Porygonz's leftovers restored its health a little!
Porygonz restored 6% of its health.

FlareTroll: Good job
Click to expand...

Thank Flare :D

FlareTroll switched in Gabriella (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gabriella.
Gabriella lost 12% of its health.
Banedon switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Gabriella used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Gabriella used Hydro Pump.
Gabriella's attack missed!
Milotic used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Gabriella lost 76% of its health.
FlareTroll's Gabriella fainted.
The rain continues to fall.

And a final bit of hax there to end the game - at this point FlareBlitz had no more sweepers left, and my winning was clear.

Conclusion: not having Damp Rock makes a huge difference. Nonetheless, having spent time writing this, I can see weaknesses in both mine and FlareBlitz's play, so it doesn't prove rain is broken or vice versa.

EDIT: Wow now that I look at it again there's an inordinate amount of bad play. Of course Cresselia was going to Toxic - FlareBlitz had no more methods of breaking Milotic. He could've Swords Danced when Porygonz faced down Kabutops, which would cause me anxious moments (can't let Kabutops get > +2, or Milotic would be OHKO'ed by Stone Edge). Perhaps he could've saved Ludicolo as well, who could threaten Milotic. Also the first Qwilfish explosion could've been predicted anyway (with or without Damp Rock he could Explode, maiming / outright killing Venusaur, which is always a problem for rain teams anyway).

I wonder now what the best way my team has to deal with rain teams that do have Damp Rock and lead with Qwilfish. Putting up Reflect first would let Venusaur survive, but it would also mean a minimum of 2 layers of Spikes against a Venusaur without Synthesis. Tough, to say the least.
 
Honestly, it might be better just to leave the issue of "is rain broken/is damp rock broken/is kabutops broken" to the voters. Damp Rock was nominated this period, and if we all vote according to what we believe, we'll just have to see whether it sticks around or not. Frankly, I don't see anything productive coming out of even logs attempting to prove one way or another, since there will always be exigencies and exceptions....and obviously theorymon can't go one way or another either. Barring some sort of change derived from the Policy Review thread on this issue, I don't see any potential for progress, so I'm going to extract myself from that aspect of the discussion.

That said, I'd love to talk about some of the points brought up by Heysup, Syrne and ToF. Specifically, how much "skill" is involved in rain, how it matches up against other playstyles, and so on. And perhaps through that discussion we'll be able to approach the issue from a lateral angle and figure out whether or not it's truly overpowered. I certainly anticipate it being much more fun than the current circle jerk going on (no offense to any of the jerkers, of course).

Edit: Thanks for the log/comments Bandeon ^^
 
I hope everyone understands that it's slightly different to use Rain with and without Damp Rock, so I guess it's OK to use different teams when testing the Rock?

Will post logs soon...

1st 2nd 3rd are with Damp Rock

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Maruccusius sent out Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
n magneto sent out Hunter (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
n magneto switched in Jockey (lvl 100 Uxie).
Alakazam used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
Jockey lost 30% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Jockey used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto switched in Witch (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Steelix used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Witch used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 35% of its health.
Witch lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Venusaur's leftovers restored its health a little!
Venusaur restored 6% of its health.
---
Witch used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 59% of its health.
Witch lost 10% of its health.
Venusaur used Power Whip.
It's super effective!
Witch lost 80% of its health.
n magneto's Witch fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Venusaur's leftovers restored its health a little!
Venusaur restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Tank (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Tank.
Tank lost 12% of its health.
Tank used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 18% of its health.
Maruccusius's Venusaur fainted.
Tank lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
n magneto switched in Charger (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Charger.
Charger lost 12% of its health.
Milotic used Hidden Power.
A critical hit!
Charger lost 35% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Charger's attack!
n magneto switched in Hunter (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Hunter.
Hunter lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Hunter used Fake Out.
It's not very effective...
Steelix lost 6% of its health.
The rain stopped.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Hunter used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Steelix used Gyro Ball.
Hunter lost 45% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Hunter used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Steelix lost 5% of its health.
n magneto switched in Charger (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Charger.
Charger lost 12% of its health.
Steelix used Roar.
n magneto switched in Tank (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Tank.
Tank lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 5% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Tank used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Milotic lost 28% of its health.
Tank lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Boomer (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Pointed stones dug into Boomer.
Boomer lost 12% of its health.
Milotic used Hidden Power.
Boomer lost 31% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Spiritomb (lvl 100 Spiritomb ?).
Spiritomb is exerting its pressure!
Boomer used Swords Dance.
Boomer's attack was sharply raised.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Boomer used Waterfall.
Spiritomb lost 100% of its health.
Maruccusius's Spiritomb fainted.
Boomer lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Maruccusius switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Boomer used Poison Jab.
It doesn't affect Steelix...
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Boomer used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Milotic lost 48% of its health.
Boomer lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Boomer used Poison Jab.
It doesn't affect Steelix...
---
Boomer used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 100% of its health.
Maruccusius's Steelix fainted.
Boomer lost 10% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Boomer used Poison Jab.
Milotic lost 42% of its health.
Maruccusius's Milotic fainted.
Boomer lost 10% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Boomer's attack!
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Boomer lost 18% of its health.
n magneto's Boomer fainted.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Jockey (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Jockey.
Jockey lost 12% of its health.
Jockey used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Arcanine used Toxic.
Jockey was badly poisoned!
The rain continues to fall.
Jockey is hurt by poison!
Jockey lost 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Hunter (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Hunter.
Hunter lost 12% of its health.
Arcanine used Toxic.
Hunter was badly poisoned!
The rain continues to fall.
Hunter is hurt by poison!
Hunter lost 6% of its health.
---
Maruccusius switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Hunter used Taunt.
Alakazam fell for the taunt!
The rain continues to fall.
Hunter is hurt by poison!
Hunter lost 12% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Psychic.
Hunter lost 11% of its health.
n magneto's Hunter fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto switched in Tank (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Tank.
Tank lost 12% of its health.
Tank used Waterfall.
Alakazam lost 100% of its health.
Maruccusius's Alakazam fainted.
Tank lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Maruccusius switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Tank's attack!
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
It's not very effective...
Tank lost 19% of its health.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
Tank used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 80% of its health.
Maruccusius's Arcanine fainted.
n magneto wins!
n magneto: logging
n magneto: this
Maruccusius: gg
n magneto: hope you don't mind
n magneto: gg
Maruccusius has left the room.


Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
n magneto sent out Hunter (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
newlol sent out Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Donphan used Ice Shard.
Hunter lost 21% of its health.
Hunter used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
flashbolt has entered the room.
Hunter used U-turn.
Donphan lost 12% of its health.
n magneto switched in Charger (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Donphan used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.
Donphan's leftovers restored its health a little!
Donphan restored 6% of its health.
---
newlol switched in Umbreon (lvl 100 Umbreon ?).
Charger used Swords Dance.
Charger's attack was sharply raised.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Charger used Waterfall.
Umbreon lost 97% of its health.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
Umbreon used Taunt.
Charger fell for the taunt!
The rain continues to fall.
Umbreon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Umbreon restored 6% of its health.
---
newlol switched in Azumarill (lvl 100 Azumarill ?).
Charger used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 63% of its health.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto: o.o never done that before
Charger used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Azumarill lost 37% of its health.
newlol's Azumarill fainted.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
newlol switched in Hitmontop (lvl 100 Hitmontop ?).
n magneto switched in Jockey (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Jockey.
Jockey lost 12% of its health.
Hitmontop used Fake Out.
Jockey lost 14% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
newlol switched in Umbreon (lvl 100 Umbreon ?).
Jockey used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The rain stopped.
Umbreon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Umbreon restored 6% of its health.
---
Jockey used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Umbreon used Wish.
Umbreon made a wish!
The rain continues to fall.
Umbreon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Umbreon restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Tank (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Tank.
Tank lost 12% of its health.
Umbreon used Toxic.
Tank was badly poisoned!
The wish came true!
Umbreon restored 50% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Tank is hurt by poison!
Tank lost 6% of its health.
Umbreon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Umbreon restored 6% of its health.
---
Tank used Swords Dance.
Tank's attack was sharply raised.
Umbreon used Wish.
Umbreon made a wish!
The rain continues to fall.
Tank is hurt by poison!
Tank lost 12% of its health.
Umbreon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Umbreon restored 6% of its health.
---
Tank used Waterfall.
Umbreon lost 83% of its health.
newlol's Umbreon fainted.
Tank lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Tank is hurt by poison!
Tank lost 18% of its health.
---
newlol switched in Hitmontop (lvl 100 Hitmontop ?).
Pointed stones dug into Hitmontop.
Hitmontop lost 6% of its health.
Tank used Aqua Jet.
A critical hit!
Hitmontop lost 94% of its health.
newlol's Hitmontop fainted.
Tank lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Tank is hurt by poison!
Tank lost 24% of its health.
---
newlol switched in Lanturn (lvl 100 Lanturn ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lanturn.
Lanturn lost 12% of its health.
n magneto: one sec sorry
Tank used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Lanturn lost 88% of its health.
newlol's Lanturn fainted.
Tank lost 7% of its health.
n magneto's Tank fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
newlol: you won
newlol: gg ::)
newlol has left the room.
n magneto wins!
flashbolt has left the room.
n magneto: gg
flashbolt has entered the room.
flashbolt has left the room.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
n magneto sent out Hunter (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
zoap sent out Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
zoap switched in Dugtrio (lvl 100 Dugtrio ?).
Hunter used Taunt.
Dugtrio fell for the taunt!
---
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
Hunter lost 49% of its health.
Hunter used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
Hunter lost 47% of its health.
Hunter used U-turn.
Dugtrio lost 44% of its health.
n magneto switched in Charger (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
The rain continues to fall.
---
Charger used Swords Dance.
Charger's attack was sharply raised.
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
It's not very effective...
Charger lost 30% of its health.
Dugtrio's taunt wore off!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Charger used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Dugtrio lost 56% of its health.
zoap's Dugtrio fainted.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
zoap switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Charger's attack!
Charger used Ice Punch.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 25% of its health.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Charger used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 57% of its health.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Venusaur's leftovers restored its health a little!
Venusaur restored 6% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Charger used Waterfall.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Charger's attack!
Charger used Seed Bomb.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 27% of its health.
Charger lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
Arcanine used Flare Blitz.
Charger lost 31% of its health.
n magneto's Charger fainted.
Arcanine was hit by recoil!
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Jockey (lvl 100 Uxie).
Jockey used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Arcanine used Toxic.
Jockey was badly poisoned!
The rain continues to fall.
Jockey is hurt by poison!
Jockey lost 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Boomer (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Arcanine used Hidden Power.
It's not very effective...
Boomer lost 19% of its health.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Boomer lost 58% of its health.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
Boomer used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 8% of its health.
zoap's Arcanine fainted.
Boomer lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
zoap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Boomer used Explosion.
It doesn't affect Mismagius...
n magneto's Boomer fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto: nice
n magneto switched in Witch (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
zoap: is this one more physical?
zoap: this team that is
n magneto: it has damp rock
zoap: ah
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Witch used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 95% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
Witch used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 11% of its health.
zoap's Poliwrath fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Witch used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 49% of its health.
zoap's Venusaur fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
n magneto switched in Hunter (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Alakazam used Psychic.
Hunter lost 4% of its health.
n magneto's Hunter fainted.
The rain stopped.
---
n magneto switched in Jockey (lvl 100 Uxie).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Jockey lost 39% of its health.
Jockey became confused!
Jockey is confused!
Jockey used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Jockey is hurt by poison!
Jockey lost 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Witch (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Alakazam used Encore.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Witch used Surf.
Alakazam lost 100% of its health.
zoap's Alakazam fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
zoap: gg
n magneto: gg
Witch used Surf.
Mismagius lost 100% of its health.
zoap's Mismagius fainted.
n magneto wins!
zoap has left the room.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
n magneto sent out Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
zoap sent out Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Ambipom used Taunt.
Mismagius fell for the taunt!
Mismagius used Substitute.
Mismagius can't use Substitute after the taunt!
---
flashbolt has entered the room.
zoap switched in Dugtrio (lvl 100 Dugtrio ?).
Ambipom used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto: good ol duggie
Dugtrio used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Ambipom used U-turn.
Dugtrio lost 46% of its health.
n magneto switched in Omastar (lvl 100 Omastar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Omastar.
Omastar lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Omastar used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Dugtrio lost 54% of its health.
zoap's Dugtrio fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
n magneto switched in Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ambipom.
Ambipom lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Venusaur's attack missed!
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Ambipom used Taunt.
Alakazam fell for the taunt!
The rain stopped.
---
Alakazam used Psychic.
Ambipom lost 69% of its health.
Ambipom used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Alakazam used Psychic.
Ambipom lost 18% of its health.
n magneto's Ambipom fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Ludicolo used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 45% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Venusaur's leftovers restored its health a little!
Venusaur restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto: i miss SD colo... but without damp rock it wouldn't work too well..
zoap switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Ludicolo's attack!
Ludicolo used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 21% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Ludicolo used Surf.
The rain stopped.
---
Ludicolo used Grass Knot.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 80% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
Poliwrath used Substitute.
But it failed!
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
Poliwrath is tightening its focus!
Ludicolo used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 26% of its health.
zoap's Poliwrath fainted.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
n magneto switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Raikou.
Raikou lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur used Sludge Bomb.
Raikou lost 39% of its health.
Venusaur's leftovers restored its health a little!
Venusaur restored 6% of its health.
---
Raikou used Extrasensory.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 67% of its health.
zoap's Venusaur fainted.
Raikou lost 10% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Raikou's attack!
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Arcanine used Toxic.
Arcanine's attack missed!
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Uxie used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Arcanine used Toxic.
Arcanine's attack missed!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto: lol
Uxie used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 8% of its health.
n magneto switched in Omastar (lvl 100 Omastar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Omastar.
Omastar lost 12% of its health.
Arcanine used Toxic.
Omastar was badly poisoned!
The rain continues to fall.
Omastar is hurt by poison!
Omastar lost 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
It's not very effective...
Omastar lost 16% of its health.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
Omastar used Surf.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 61% of its health.
zoap's Arcanine fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Omastar is hurt by poison!
Omastar lost 12% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Omastar used Surf.
Alakazam lost 100% of its health.
zoap's Alakazam fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Omastar is hurt by poison!
Omastar lost 18% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
n magneto: gg
Omastar used Surf.
Mismagius lost 100% of its health.
zoap's Mismagius fainted.
n magneto wins!
zoap: gg
zoap has left the room.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
n magneto sent out Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
AdamLambert sent out Swallows Dick (lvl 100 Swellow ?).
Swallows Dick used Protect.
Swallows Dick protected itself!
Ambipom used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Swallows Dick was badly poisoned!
---
Twigvest has entered the room.
Swallows Dick used Facade.
Ambipom lost 100% of its health.
n magneto's Ambipom fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Swallows Dick is hurt by poison!
Swallows Dick lost 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Omastar (lvl 100 Omastar ?).
AdamLambert switched in Tinker Dick (lvl 100 Uxie).
Omastar used Surf.
Tinker Dick lost 85% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Tinker Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tinker Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
AdamLambert switched in Dino Dick (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Omastar used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Dino Dick lost 42% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Dino Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dino Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
Omastar used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Dino Dick lost 39% of its health.
Dino Dick used Sleep Powder.
Dino Dick's attack missed!
The rain stopped.
Dino Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dino Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
Omastar used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Dino Dick lost 29% of its health.
Dino Dick used Sleep Powder.
Omastar fell asleep!
Dino Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dino Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Dino Dick used Leech Seed.
Uxie was seeded!
Uxie's health was sapped by leech seed!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Dino Dick regained health!
Dino Dick restored 12% of its health.
Dino Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dino Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
It's super effective!
Dino Dick lost 26% of its health.
AdamLambert's Dino Dick fainted.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
AdamLambert switched in Raging Dick (lvl 100 Primeape ?).
Raging Dick used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 34% of its health.
AdamLambert switched in Tinker Dick (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
It's not very effective...
Tinker Dick lost 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's health was sapped by leech seed!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Tinker Dick regained health!
Tinker Dick restored 12% of its health.
Tinker Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tinker Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto: if only my gorebyss was called smooth cock
AdamLambert: Lol.
Uxie used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Tinker Dick lost 16% of its health.
n magneto switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Tinker Dick used Thunder Wave.
Raikou is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Tinker Dick's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tinker Dick restored 6% of its health.
---
Tinker Dick used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Raikou used Hidden Power.
Tinker Dick lost 24% of its health.
AdamLambert's Tinker Dick fainted.
Raikou lost 10% of its health.
---
AdamLambert switched in Raging Dick (lvl 100 Primeape ?).
Raging Dick used Close Combat.
Raikou lost 81% of its health.
Raging Dick's defence was lowered.
Raging Dick's special defence was lowered.
Raikou used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Raging Dick used Close Combat.
Raikou lost 9% of its health.
n magneto's Raikou fainted.
Raging Dick's defence was lowered.
Raging Dick's special defence was lowered.
The rain continues to fall.
---
n magneto switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
Kabutops used Waterfall.
Raging Dick lost 100% of its health.
AdamLambert's Raging Dick fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
AdamLambert switched in Pixie Dick (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Kabutops used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Pixie Dick lost 100% of its health.
AdamLambert's Pixie Dick fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
AdamLambert switched in Swallows Dick (lvl 100 Swellow ?).
Swallows Dick used Protect.
Swallows Dick protected itself!
Kabutops used Waterfall.
Swallows Dick protected itself!
The rain stopped.
Swallows Dick is hurt by poison!
Swallows Dick lost 6% of its health.
---
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
Swallows Dick lost 53% of its health.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
Swallows Dick used Facade.
It's not very effective...
Kabutops lost 44% of its health.
Swallows Dick is hurt by poison!
Swallows Dick lost 12% of its health.
---
AdamLambert switched in Monkey Dick (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
Monkey Dick lost 43% of its health.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
---
PJammies has entered the room.
PJammies: Hey look, the (BAN ME PLEASE) is gonna lose.
PJammies: Everyone laugh!
PJammies: GET TO SCHOOL, (BAN ME PLEASE)!
n magneto: what?
n magneto: go away
n magneto: thanks
AdamLambert: Lol.
PJammies: Move.
n magneto switched in Omastar (lvl 100 Omastar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Omastar.
Omastar lost 12% of its health.
Monkey Dick used Fake Out.
It's not very effective...
Omastar lost 16% of its health.
Monkey Dick lost 10% of its health.
---
Monkey Dick used Low Kick.
It's super effective!
Omastar lost 33% of its health.
Monkey Dick lost 10% of its health.
Omastar is fast asleep!
---
PJammies: Wow.
n magneto: lol i forgot
PJammies: Nice names, Ahdumb.
PJammies: -.-
Monkey Dick used Double Hit.
It's not very effective...
Omastar lost 16% of its health.
It's not very effective...
Omastar lost 16% of its health.
Hit 2 time(s)!
Monkey Dick lost 10% of its health.
Omastar is fast asleep!
---
Monkey Dick used Pursuit.
Omastar lost 7% of its health.
n magneto's Omastar fainted.
Monkey Dick lost 10% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Monkey Dick used Double Hit.
Uxie lost 23% of its health.
Uxie lost 19% of its health.
n magneto's Uxie fainted.
Hit 2 time(s)!
Monkey Dick lost 10% of its health.
---
PJammies: Maybe not lose...
PJammies: *urp*
n magneto: lol you won
PJammies: Orm will?
n magneto switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 4% of its health.
n magneto's Kabutops fainted.
n magneto switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
Monkey Dick used Double Hit.
Ludicolo lost 40% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 47% of its health.
Hit 2 time(s)!
Monkey Dick lost 8% of its health.
AdamLambert's Monkey Dick fainted.
Ludicolo used Surf.
But there was no target!
---
AdamLambert switched in Swallows Dick (lvl 100 Swellow ?).
AdamLambert: Gg
n magneto: gg
PJammies: Wow...

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
n magneto sent out Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
zoap sent out Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
n magneto: see your pms... ><
Ambipom used Taunt.
Mismagius fell for the taunt!
Mismagius used Thunderbolt.
Ambipom lost 38% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Dugtrio (lvl 100 Dugtrio ?).
Ambipom used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
Ambipom lost 51% of its health.
Ambipom used U-turn.
Dugtrio lost 41% of its health.
n magneto switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
The rain continues to fall.
---
Ludicolo used Grass Knot.
It's super effective!
Dugtrio lost 59% of its health.
zoap's Dugtrio fainted.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Ludicolo used Surf.
The rain continues to fall.
---
zoap switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Ludicolo's attack!
Ludicolo used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Arcanine lost 23% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
zoap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
---
Mismagius used Substitute.
Mismagius lost 25% of its health.
Mismagius made a substitute!
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
The substitute took damage for Mismagius!
Mismagius's substitute faded!
Mismagius's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mismagius restored 6% of its health.
---
Mismagius used Nasty Plot.
Mismagius's special attack was sharply raised.
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
A critical hit!
Mismagius lost 79% of its health.
Mismagius's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mismagius restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto: sorry
zoap: it happens
n magneto switched in Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Mismagius used Shadow Ball.
It doesn't affect Ambipom...
Mismagius's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mismagius restored 6% of its health.
---
Ambipom used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Mismagius lost 14% of its health.
zoap's Mismagius fainted.
n magneto switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
---
zoap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
zoap: i wish kabutops learned eq
n magneto switched in Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Ambipom fell asleep!
Ambipom's Lum Berry cured its Sleep!
---
Ambipom used Taunt.
Venusaur fell for the taunt!
Venusaur used Sludge Bomb.
Ambipom lost 11% of its health.
n magneto's Ambipom fainted.
---
n magneto switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
zoap switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Raikou's attack!
Raikou used Extrasensory.
Arcanine lost 47% of its health.
Raikou lost 10% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Raikou lost 45% of its health.
Arcanine lost 10% of its health.
Raikou used Extrasensory.
Arcanine lost 20% of its health.
zoap's Arcanine fainted.
Raikou lost 10% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Alakazam used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
Uxie lost 19% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
Uxie used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Encore.
Uxie got an encore!
Uxie used Rain Dance.
The rain continues to fall.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Psychic.
It's not very effective...
Uxie lost 18% of its health.
Uxie used Rain Dance.
The rain continues to fall.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 44% of its health.
Uxie used Rain Dance.
The rain continues to fall.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Alakazam used Psychic.
Ludicolo lost 55% of its health.
The rain stopped.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 1% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Ludicolo lost 26% of its health.
n magneto's Ludicolo fainted.
---
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Alakazam used Encore.
But it failed!
Uxie used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Alakazam used Encore.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Kabutops used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
Kabutops used Swords Dance.
Kabutops's attack was sharply raised.
Alakazam used Substitute.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
Kabutops used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
The rain stopped.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Psychic.
Kabutops lost 80% of its health.
Kabutops used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
---
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
Kabutops's attack missed!
Poliwrath used Encore.
Kabutops got an encore!
---
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
Kabutops's attack missed!
Poliwrath used Waterfall.
Kabutops lost 20% of its health.
n magneto's Kabutops fainted.
---
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 47% of its health.
Poliwrath used Encore.
Uxie got an encore!
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
zoap switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
It's not very effective...
Alakazam lost 27% of its health.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 40% of its health.
Uxie used Zen Headbutt.
It's not very effective...
Alakazam lost 27% of its health.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Uxie restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
Raikou lost 27% of its health.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
Alakazam used Psychic.
Raikou lost 8% of its health.
n magneto's Raikou fainted.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
Uxie lost 35% of its health.
n magneto's Uxie fainted.
Alakazam's leftovers restored its health a little!
Alakazam restored 6% of its health.
---
n magneto: gg
n magneto switched in Omastar (lvl 100 Omastar ?).
zoap: gg
Alakazam used Psychic.
Omastar lost 81% of its health.
Omastar used Ice Beam.
Alakazam lost 50% of its health.
zoap's Alakazam fainted.
---
zoap switched in Poliwrath (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Omastar used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Poliwrath lost 24% of its health.
Poliwrath used Encore.
Omastar got an encore!
Poliwrath's leftovers restored its health a little!
Poliwrath restored 6% of its health.
---
Omastar used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Poliwrath lost 25% of its health.
Poliwrath used Waterfall.
Omastar lost 19% of its health.
n magneto's Omastar fainted.
zoap wins!
zoap has left the room.
 
Twist of Fate said:
I think someone needs to get to a high leaderboard position using a non Damp Rock team. Doesn't sound hard, that would negate a ton of your speculation. I'll get someone to do that, don't worry.

And it's a fascinating playstyle? Seriously, come on. Its the most basic piece of shit ever, no skill whatsoever, anyone with no knowledge of the tier can use it and win. This is of course no grounds to ban it, but that comment was just flat out wrong lol. I don't know how you can argue that rain requires a real amount of skill to use, when its just set-up, sweep, and repeat until you either win or lose.

Rain will never flatten stall by the way, not stall in a good players hands, just fyi ;)
Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree with this one. Among other playstyles, rain and dual-ghost stall are the closest things to matching up with stall. Rain being the best weapon against it. I've played some prolific stall players (not naming them here) and literally dismantled their entire team with SD Ludicolo due to a wrong switch to Chansey. (early stage of this metagame, now SD Ludicolo seems to be more common). Anyways, the point is you make one wrong move I don't think stall has a chance at all. I have to agree somewhat that a good stall player with a good stall team that is designed to check Rain teams are difficult to budge, albeit not too difficult. In theory a rain-based stall team with something like: Omastar / Tangrowth / Altaria / Chansey / Spiritomb / Hitmontop should be enough to deal with Rain Dance or a slightly different variation from that team would be Froslass / Tangrowth / Altaria / Chansey / Milotic / Hitmontop. (20 second teams)

Edit: While I'm here, I'd like to post an interesting Rain lead I've been using for a week now.

Lumineon @ Damp Rock
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Jolly nature (Spe+ / Atk-)
252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
- Rain Dance
- Safeguard
- U-turn
- Waterfall

Looks similar to the other set-up sweepers right? Well not really. Lumineon is one of the few Pokemon to have Rain Dance + Safeguard + U-turn. With that being said, teams that truly rely on paralysis to destroy my sweepers are utterly nullified. Lumineon is no sitting duck as well after setting up since it can actually threaten frail-mons with a boosted Waterfall (even without Atk investment). Try it out people, you won't be disappointed.
 
j. franky said:
I'll have to disagree with this one. Among other playstyles, rain and dual-ghost stall are the closest things to matching up with stall. Rain being the best weapon against it. I've played some prolific stall players (not naming them here) and literally dismantled their entire team with SD Ludicolo due to a wrong switch to Chansey. (early stage of this metagame, now SD Ludicolo seems to be more common). Anyways, the point is you make one wrong move I don't think stall has a chance at all. I have to agree somewhat that a good stall player with a good stall team that is designed to check Rain teams are difficult to budge, albeit not too difficult. In theory a rain-based stall team with something like: Omastar / Tangrowth / Altaria / Chansey / Spiritomb / Hitmontop should be enough to deal with Rain Dance or a slightly different variation from that team would be Froslass / Tangrowth / Altaria / Chansey / Milotic / Hitmontop. (20 second teams)
Click to expand...

So Rain beats stall because you caught someone off-guard with SD Ludicolo?

That's like if I beat stall with a Sunny Day team using Expert Belt Brick Break Typhlosion or something equally silly.

Being able to take something out with a "anti-standard" does not make the whole playstyle > that team.

Stall, from a theorymon standpoint (since I don't play lolstall), should completely destroy Rain because of their free moveslots and ability to run Wish + Protect Chansey, the best special Rain counter in the game. They can also easily run stuff like Hitmontop with Mach Punch to deal with Kabutops, and other stuff to deal with Ludicolo.

EDIT: Franky just so you know that lead still loses to Froslass, Scarf Venusaur, and basically every other lead I would run to stop set up.
 
j. franky said:
Lumineon @ Damp Rock
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Jolly nature (Spe+ / Atk-)
252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
- Rain Dance
- Safeguard
- U-turn
- Waterfall

Looks similar to the other set-up sweepers right? Well not really. Lumineon is one of the few Pokemon to have Rain Dance + Safeguard + U-turn. With that being said, teams that truly rely on paralysis to destroy my sweepers are utterly nullified. Lumineon is no sitting duck as well after setting up since it can actually threaten frail-mons with a boosted Waterfall (even without Atk investment). Try it out people, you won't be disappointed.
Click to expand...

Whilst this looks like an interesting set, I have to question the idea of taking the middle ground with something ultimately designed to be a semi-bulky setup Pokemon for Rain. I would prefer Phione's extra bulk, status protection and attack power over the speed, as if going that route I would rather go the full whack with something a bit more 'Taunt-proof' like Electrode or Ambipom. And I have to question Lumineon's ability to genuinely hurt stuff with no investment or boosting item, even with Rain up. Being slow and bulky has its benefits on U-turn supporters too, being able to give your sweepers a safe entry more often than not. To each their own I suppose.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Whilst this looks like an interesting set, I have to question the idea of taking the middle ground with something ultimately designed to be a semi-bulky setup Pokemon for Rain. I would prefer Phione's extra bulk, status protection and attack power over the speed, as if going that route I would rather go the full whack with something a bit more 'Taunt-proof' like Electrode or Ambipom. And I have to question Lumineon's ability to genuinely hurt stuff with no investment or boosting item, even with Rain up. Being slow and bulky has its benefits on U-turn supporters too, being able to give your sweepers a safe entry more often than not. To each their own I suppose.
Click to expand...

I agree here, Phione would generally be a better choice (You could use Dewgong too, I guess). Rain Dance/Rest/Waterfall/U-Turn would allow Phione to last a while, which would be more important should Damp Rock get banned.

EDIT: Sorry Lemmiwinks, you're right, Dewgong doesn't learn U-Turn.
 
So Rain beats stall because you caught someone off-guard with SD Ludicolo?

That's like if I beat stall with a Sunny Day team using Expert Belt Brick Break Typhlosion or something equally silly.
Click to expand...
Well in a sense yes it does. The point I'm trying to cross is that one wrong move could kill your team and you can't afford to make a wrong move when playing Rain Dance team. I view Rain Dance teams like offensive teams on drugs, and if you allow the sweepers to further boost their stats by two more stages when they already have an added STAB bonus + 2x Speed, your just asking for more trouble. But remember, this was when special Ludicolo was p. common and using Swords Dance was pretty uncommon. Players like myself enjoy using surprise to beat teams and there is nothing wrong with that.

Stall, from a theorymon standpoint (since I don't play lolstall), should completely destroy Rain because of their free moveslots and ability to run Wish + Protect Chansey, the best special Rain counter in the game. They can also easily run stuff like Hitmontop with Mach Punch to deal with Kabutops, and other stuff to deal with Ludicolo.
Click to expand...

Nice choice of words there, it doesn't completely destroy Rain. Chansey counters special rain, but smart rain players don't bring them out late-game. Hitmontop does not run Mach Punch on a stall team, and if your planning to run it on a defensive set, its still not enough damage to thwart some rain sweepers (kabutops maybe, but thats just it).

Franky just so you know that lead still loses to Froslass, Scarf Venusaur, and basically every other lead I would run to stop set up.
Click to expand...
Hey it was for fun, I found it effective. Also for your information, I would U-turn to Dugtrio as you Taunt me and OHKO you with Stone Edge. I prepare for these kind of scenarios y'know. Scarf Venusaur is p. rare so i don't have to worry about it.

@ Lemmiwinks

Although I have to kind of agree with you, I chose Lumineon because its a bad ass Pokemon that's rarely used. Also it does have its niches anyways, namely faster Speed, higher Special bulk, and Swift Swim. By the way, the EVs listed are wrong. I've been using 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe with a Jolly nature. With the EVs listed I think it should give it a slight advantage over Phione., I don't know I'm not an EV person.
 
j. franky said:
Well in a sense yes it does. The point I'm trying to cross is that one wrong move could kill your team and you can't afford to make a wrong move when playing Rain Dance team. I view Rain Dance teams like offensive teams on drugs, and if you allow the sweepers to further boost their stats by two more stages when they already have an added STAB bonus + 2x Speed, your just asking for more trouble. But remember, this was when special Ludicolo was p. common and using Swords Dance was pretty uncommon. Players like myself enjoy using surprise to beat teams and there is nothing wrong with that
Click to expand...

You didn't refute my counter-point. I said using a "surprise/gimmick (aka SD Ludicolo a while back)" to beat one stall team doesn't mean "rain > stall teams". I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with that strategy. I was just saying it wasn't a legitimate argument.
Franky said:
Nice choice of words there, it doesn't completely destroy Rain. Chansey counters special rain, but smart rain players don't bring them out late-game. Hitmontop does not run Mach Punch on a stall team, and if your planning to run it on a defensive set, its still not enough damage to thwart some rain sweepers (kabutops maybe, but thats just it).
Click to expand...

Franky, frankly (hehehe) once a stall team downs Kabutops it is practically over. What else can break Chansey? Qwilfish? How do you get passed something like Slowbro without exploding Qwilfish? Don't say SD Ludicolo because I will be expecting it (if I'm a stall player....which I'm not...) and I will have Registeel or something else to that effect waiting for it.
 
j. franky said:
I'll have to disagree with this one. Among other playstyles, rain and dual-ghost stall are the closest things to matching up with stall. Rain being the best weapon against it. I've played some prolific stall players (not naming them here) and literally dismantled their entire team with SD Ludicolo due to a wrong switch to Chansey. (early stage of this metagame, now SD Ludicolo seems to be more common). Anyways, the point is you make one wrong move I don't think stall has a chance at all. I have to agree somewhat that a good stall player with a good stall team that is designed to check Rain teams are difficult to budge, albeit not too difficult. In theory a rain-based stall team with something like: Omastar / Tangrowth / Altaria / Chansey / Spiritomb / Hitmontop should be enough to deal with Rain Dance or a slightly different variation from that team would be Froslass / Tangrowth / Altaria / Chansey / Milotic / Hitmontop. (20 second teams)
Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree with you of course, because the best rain counter is Tangrowth, but no one seems to use it of course. On top of it being a great Rain counter, it also stops I'd say 75% of the physical attackers in the tier, so I don't understand why it's not used more. Oh well, people don't like adapting I guess.

Dual ghost teams aren't stall bait either franky, I don't know what you're talking about. Considering I popularized the playstyle, I know the ins and outs of what beats it and what doesn't. Yeah you might be at a team disadvantage, but playing dual ghost IMO is just like playing rain. Again, any competent player can easily play around the weaknesses a team has (except SD Venusaur and me, maybe the only exception lol).

When playing rain with stall, you have to force your opponent to bring in the Pokemon you want to kill early game. This means you bait in their Kabutops / Ludicolo early game and eliminate it, even if its costs a Pokemon. This makes it a lot easier to deal with the remaining special rain attackers, since you have Chansey. All-physical rain teams are easily dismantled by Tangrowth, who can take an SD Ice Punch from Ludicolo and a Stone Edge from Kabutops IIRC. Even if it can't take a Stone Edge from Kabutops, you can always switch in Hitmontop to resist the attack, and then proceed to Close Combat or double-switch to a predicted rain dance set-up user. I mean it really comes down to playing practically and smart, but in the end I'd say rain matches up with stall in the same way stall is a pain to rain.
 
Twist of Fate said:
All-physical rain teams are easily dismantled by Tangrowth, who can take an SD Ice Punch from Ludicolo and a Stone Edge from Kabutops IIRC.
Click to expand...

But not a Poison Jab from Qwilfish. Even Hitmontop doesn't help much here, giving Qwilfish a chance to get to +3 unless you use something really obscure like Earthquake (though I remember EUM using that on one of his stall teams). I guess if you use Slowbro or something similar alongside Tangrowth then you really would have every physical Rain threat covered, but then I imagine that you would lack a reliable Hazer. Altaria could work, but then you'd be giving up something else that is key, like Heal Bell or Perish Song.

I'm not criticizing you in any way, I am just curious about the stall team you use that covers every physical Rain threat.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
But not a Poison Jab from Qwilfish. Even Hitmontop doesn't help much here, giving Qwilfish a chance to get to +3 unless you use something really obscure like Earthquake (though I remember EUM using that on one of his stall teams). I guess if you use Slowbro or something similar alongside Tangrowth then you really would have every physical Rain threat covered, but then I imagine that you would lack a reliable Hazer. Altaria could work, but then you'd be giving up something else that is key, like Heal Bell or Perish Song.

I'm not criticizing you in any way, I am just curious about the stall team you use that covers every physical Rain threat.
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Its cool, at least you're objectively criticizing rather than most of the people that post.

Remember that rain dance teams always lead with a, well, Rain Dancer lol. Easy set-up for a few layer of spikes, minimum 2. On the typical Uxie lead, you just Surf their U-turn and hit whatever comes in for decent damage (Omastar lead of course), barring Ludicolo. Remember, you have to keep momentum in your favor, so you have to force the rain dance player to bring in things that your team can handle easily. Most likely, Ludicolo is coming in, and now Tangrowth handles that quite easily always the first time it comes in, allowing you to scout the physical or special split.

You still have to cover the likely Kabutops and Qwilfish, so after Tangrowth takes like 60% from an SD Ice Punch in the worst case scenario, its obviously not death fodder. If the opponent does bring in Qwilfish, they have a few options. They can Swords Dance and possibly take a Power Whip, or Poison Jab on the spot. Depends on the opponent what I'd do, but again you force your opponent to make the game-changing move, not the stall player. I can send Omastar back in as death fodder if Qwilfish does Swords Dance, and take that out of the game too.

I have Aromatherapy on Chansey at times, other times I don't. Depends on what team I use. The core of Hitmontop, Tangrowth, and Omastar really takes on any physical rain threat without issue. As I stall out the opponents Pokemon, rain also dies out, which makes it 10x more easier to beat, considering you know once rain stops Uxie or Registeel or whatever is coming back in, and I can safely set up more hazards or prevent Rain from going up again. And of course, Chansey takes on any Special rain threat. As long as you force the rain player to bring out a Pokemon you know your team can handle, you're good. Its all about proper switching and timing ;)
 
Twist of Fate said:
Its cool, at least you're objectively criticizing rather than most of the people that post.

Remember that rain dance teams always lead with a, well, Rain Dancer lol. Easy set-up for a few layer of spikes, minimum 2. On the typical Uxie lead, you just Surf their U-turn and hit whatever comes in for decent damage (Omastar lead of course), barring Ludicolo. Remember, you have to keep momentum in your favor, so you have to force the rain dance player to bring in things that your team can handle easily. Most likely, Ludicolo is coming in, and now Tangrowth handles that quite easily always the first time it comes in, allowing you to scout the physical or special split.

You still have to cover the likely Kabutops and Qwilfish, so after Tangrowth takes like 60% from an SD Ice Punch in the worst case scenario, its obviously not death fodder. If the opponent does bring in Qwilfish, they have a few options. They can Swords Dance and possibly take a Power Whip, or Poison Jab on the spot. Depends on the opponent what I'd do, but again you force your opponent to make the game-changing move, not the stall player. I can send Omastar back in as death fodder if Qwilfish does Swords Dance, and take that out of the game too.

I have Aromatherapy on Chansey at times, other times I don't. Depends on what team I use. The core of Hitmontop, Tangrowth, and Omastar really takes on any physical rain threat without issue. As I stall out the opponents Pokemon, rain also dies out, which makes it 10x more easier to beat, considering you know once rain stops Uxie or Registeel or whatever is coming back in, and I can safely set up more hazards or prevent Rain from going up again. And of course, Chansey takes on any Special rain threat. As long as you force the rain player to bring out a Pokemon you know your team can handle, you're good. Its all about proper switching and timing ;)
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Okay, but consider this very plausible scenario.

Lead Electrode taunts the Omastar / other spiker first turn, then does the obvious Rain Dance + Explosion tactic. Ludicolo then comes in at 100% health and SDs on the switch to Tangrowth. Ice Punch does ~55% to Tangrowth whilst Power Whip deals 60-65% back. The stall opponent either sacs Tangrowth this turn or switches to Hitmontop in an attempt to stall out a couple of turns. If the former, then Hitmontop comes in on the sacrifice.

At this point, the physical Rain user's best move is Swords Dance again. Why? Because, knowing that they are up against a stall team, they are not racing against against time to protect their speed boost, only their double STAB. But if one of their Rain sweepers can get to +3 Attack or better, this becomes irrelevant also. Now, if Hitmontop doesn't finish off Ludicolo here, it will have +3 Attack (with Rain still up) and three or four more turns left to attack. If he does finish off Ludicolo, then Qwilfish comes in to set up, at which point it's open season for the Rain user as everything is OHKO'd, rain still up or not. Only Hitmontop (and perhaps Omastar, who can't hit back hard anyway) could possibly brave another hit, but that's another free Swords Dance which is even worse. AND Kabutops is still waiting in the wings to blast through weakened counters should something somehow go wrong. How does the stall team come out victorious from that scenario?

Note that I don't believe the above scenario requires much if any skill on the Rain users part, it is just the autopilot strategy.
 
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