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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
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Isn't HP Ice more useful?
Flygon has still lost a lot of health on the switch-in if it switches into Dragon Pulse. Sure, Heatran is forced out, but you have a severely weakened Flygon which is setup bait for any other levitator / flier.
The point of dragon pulse is that it is only resisted by steel types, and not many steels stay in against a heatran. While hp Ice may be more powerful against some dragons, it's not as effective against water types, and I want an attack that has maximum coverage as my "safe" option.
Although I would have to playtest hp ice to be sure.
In a metagame without Latias and with the possible banning of Salamence, I would run HP Ice for the extra power on Dragonite. The DD Dragonite sets turn Dragon Pulse into set up fodder.
Thank you all for uniformly missing the original point. Heatran can be countered very easily. I'm sorry for thinking of an example off the top of my head. I'm sorry that it couldn't satisfactorily fit your standards to a counter. I was going by the definition of if it could switch in on any of Heatrans attacks and OHKO in return. Which Flygon does. My bad for not realizing that he still takes a lot of damage if you decide to blindly fire off a non-STAB "use for coverage only" move, and you just happen to land the hit on one of the three things that take Super-Effective Damage from it.
Speaking of which, since this is about his use in the suspect ladder, Heatran's Dragon Pulse can only OHKO one Dragon in the suspect ladder. And that's Dragonite. That's assuming rocks of course, because without stealth rock Dragonite is taking 80% from DPulse if Heatran rolls max damage, and OHKO's 50% of the time with superpower. That's only for the MixNite set though, because the DD set takes 60% max, which is not an OHKO even with rocks and OHKO's in return with EQ. Kingdra takes 83% and OHKO's with Hydro Pump 67% of the time (accounting for accuracy). In the rain, Kingdra OHKO's 100% of the time with Waterfall while also outspeeding.
What does all that mumbo jumbo mean you ask? Dragon Pulse is statistically not worth running on a Heatran set in the suspect ladder. The only reason you'd ever use Dragon Pulse is because it secured a faster 2HKO on non scarfed Latias's for the ScarfTran set, and because it OHKO's Salamence 100% of the time after Stealth Rock Damage. With Latias banned, and Salamence's non-existence in the suspect ladder, there is no reason to use Dragon Pulse.
Speaking of which, since this is about his use in the suspect ladder, Heatran's Dragon Pulse can only OHKO one Dragon in the suspect ladder. And that's Dragonite. That's assuming rocks of course, because without stealth rock Dragonite is taking 80% from DPulse if Heatran rolls max damage, and OHKO's 50% of the time with superpower. That's only for the MixNite set though, because the DD set takes 60% max, which is not an OHKO even with rocks and OHKO's in return with EQ. Kingdra takes 83% and OHKO's with Hydro Pump 67% of the time (accounting for accuracy). In the rain, Kingdra OHKO's 100% of the time with Waterfall while also outspeeding.
What does all that mumbo jumbo mean you ask? Dragon Pulse is statistically not worth running on a Heatran set in the suspect ladder. The only reason you'd ever use Dragon Pulse is because it secured a faster 2HKO on non scarfed Latias's for the ScarfTran set, and because it OHKO's Salamence 100% of the time after Stealth Rock Damage. With Latias banned, and Salamence's non-existence in the suspect ladder, there is no reason to use Dragon Pulse.
Please do not put words in my mouth, because I never once said that Mamo or Weavile were counters to Salamence.
People seem to think that for any Pokemon to be fair it has to have a "perfect counter" but the game sometimes just doesn't work out like that. What's to keep me from switching from your ice shard? The Outrage I threw off 1 turn ago. The fact is that Salamence is easily killable - but maybe not so easily counterable. But what the hell, why counter it when you can kill it and get it out of the way for good?
Interesting that you say that, but if we were to look at most of the posts in this thread, a lot of many people's opinions stem from the fact they prefer one ladder to another. People are always going to factor in preference into their votes.
In regards to your second paragraph, I'm not saying to ban Heatran. It can be countered and does have checks, but it will be front face of OU (for now anyway, but I don't see it moving) if Salamence is banned. If Salamence has a negative impact on the metagame once it leaves, but does break a characteristic, then it's up to us to find somewhere in the middle that satisfies both 'parties'.
Firstly, I did say
The 'banning' of Salamence has led to 3 or 4 pokemon becoming extremely popular, with little incentive to remove them. Is this a cause of centralisation? Possibly, but it to me it seems like a reverse way of doing so. Once these 3 or 4 pokemon become standard, people will change their teams just to beat them. A good example would be Dugtrio, of which I saw at least 2 of yesterday. The main reason for this would to be revenge kill Heatran and Breloom. I doubt you'd ever see Dugtrio in a game full of Scizor.
It's not overcentralision, it's more so "these handful of pokemon are the best at what they do and I have no reason to switch them around or try anything else", which is why most suspect teams have a standard Heatran/Water/Celebi, Shaymin or Breloom core, and I doubt there's any reason to change.
DDMence:
Outrage: 44.67%-53.27%
+1 Outrage: 67.62%-79.91%
MixMence:
Outrage: 34.42%-40.98%
Draco Meteor w/Sandstorm: 34.42%-40.57%
Draco Meteor w/o Sandstorm: 50.81%-60.2%
Assuming that you have Stealth Rocks and Sandstorm up, you can rest against the MixMence set and outstall it with sandstorm and Life Orb recoil (Assuming that it stays in). However, you will not be able to outstall a +1 DDMence, because a boosted outrage does well over half to you. So your Shuckle effectively counters 1 of the 2 Salamence sets, which is a problem when you need to guess which one it is.
Download Shoddy Battle and connect to Smogon University and select Suspect under the "Find" tab.
I feel that, although I'm new, that I should express my opinions on the new metagame. I've definitely seen more Grass types (i.e. Shaymin, Celebii, but not many Brelooms for some reason). However, I've also seen a definite increase in Starmie and Forretress and a definate decrease in previously common pokemon such as Scizor. I was actually kinda amazed at the different pokemon used because the team that I was using was no longer effective at all.
I personally prefer this metagame more mostly because of the diversity and not having to worry about predicting a Salamence. A lot of people have put this a lot better than I have, but that's just my 2 cents.
I never said that you wanted to ban Heatran, and was only referring to Salamence in my post. Your main argument for Salamence staying OU is that the metagame is more centralized with Salamence gone, but that is not a good argument against a Pokemon being Uber. None of the characteristics of Ubers mention centralization. Just like how a Pokemon is not necessarily Uber if it centralizes a metagame, a Pokemon is not necessarily OU if it decentralizes a metagame. Going by X-Act's centralization statistics for late 2008, the centralization of OU actually went down when Shaymin-S was introduced into the metagame, and we can mostly agree at this point that Shaymin-S should be Uber. So stating that a Pokemon is OU because it reduces centralization is not a valid argument.
So, most people think Salamence is overcentralizing the metagame. This is a point that is true, but only to an extent.
Salamence is one of the top 5 used Pokemon, according to the shoddy stats. However, is it really overcentralizing the metagame as much as everyone is saying it is?
Let's take a look at Garchomp. One of the prime suspects back in the premiere days of D/P. Garchomp was eventually banned to Ubers, and this was because it REALLY overcentralized the metagame. Yache Chomp and Scarf Chomp were top tier threats, and this was great and all, but eventually Chomp was in the position in which Salamence finds itself now, suspect testing, and possibly going Uber in a few months.
Garchomp was a threat which overcentralized the metagame WAY more than Salamence is now. I mean, back then, the reason everyone was pro-Uber for Garchomp was because almost everyone's team was forced to pack a Weavile with Ice Shard, a Mamoswine with Ice Shard, Choice Scarf Starmie, etc. Sometimes, said Ice type moves wouldn't even OHKO the x4 weak Dragon/Ground shark (which was another reason why Garchomp was so hated in OU). Literally everyone who played OU was expecting to see Garchomp in every single battle. Now, everyone sure does expect a Salamence on most OU teams now a days, but is it really that much bulkier than Garchomp was? Yache Berry on Salamence is at most a gimmick, because Salamance isn't nearly as bulky enough as Garchomp was to survive an Ice Shard or Ice Beam, even with said berry. (Don't bust me if it is though, because almost nobody uses Yache Berry on Mence).
Another point, if Salamence is supposedly overcentralizing the metagame as much as Garchomp (who deserved Uber status), then why isn't every team packing a Weavile, Mamoswine, Scarf Starmie, etc.? Weavile and Mamoswine are receiving fairly low usage in OU, with the now-and-then Mamoswine lead. As it's been said in this very thread, these Pokemon aren't used in OU that often. So if Salamence is such a threat to everyone, then why isn't everyone packing one of these said Pokemon in their teams?
And Salamence is weak to SR (another reason why Garchomp was sent to Ubers - it took minimal damage on switch ins), AND even takes damage from Sandstorm. As an added plus (although I'm not sure if this is positive or not), Salamence almost ALWAYS carries Life Orb (67% according to the latest stats), so that's even more residual damage that Salamence is going to take.
Common statement: "But Salamence only needs one or two turns to get its job done, so your statement regarding residual damage is invalid".
I'm expecting some of that ^ But, does Mence really even have time to set up with DD when its health has been suddenly sapped of 25%? And when a Sandstorm is possibly going on? The fact is, Mence goes down, and he goes down FAST.
Mence isn't overcentralizing the metagame, in my opinion, and residual damage (which is present on almost every team) greatly hinders Mence from lasting as long as it should.
Is Salamence Uber? -No
Is Salamence just a really strong OU Pokemon who deserves to stay in its current tier? -Yes
Salamence is one of the top 5 used Pokemon, according to the shoddy stats. However, is it really overcentralizing the metagame as much as everyone is saying it is?
Let's take a look at Garchomp. One of the prime suspects back in the premiere days of D/P. Garchomp was eventually banned to Ubers, and this was because it REALLY overcentralized the metagame. Yache Chomp and Scarf Chomp were top tier threats, and this was great and all, but eventually Chomp was in the position in which Salamence finds itself now, suspect testing, and possibly going Uber in a few months.
Garchomp was a threat which overcentralized the metagame WAY more than Salamence is now. I mean, back then, the reason everyone was pro-Uber for Garchomp was because almost everyone's team was forced to pack a Weavile with Ice Shard, a Mamoswine with Ice Shard, Choice Scarf Starmie, etc. Sometimes, said Ice type moves wouldn't even OHKO the x4 weak Dragon/Ground shark (which was another reason why Garchomp was so hated in OU). Literally everyone who played OU was expecting to see Garchomp in every single battle. Now, everyone sure does expect a Salamence on most OU teams now a days, but is it really that much bulkier than Garchomp was? Yache Berry on Salamence is at most a gimmick, because Salamance isn't nearly as bulky enough as Garchomp was to survive an Ice Shard or Ice Beam, even with said berry. (Don't bust me if it is though, because almost nobody uses Yache Berry on Mence).
Another point, if Salamence is supposedly overcentralizing the metagame as much as Garchomp (who deserved Uber status), then why isn't every team packing a Weavile, Mamoswine, Scarf Starmie, etc.? Weavile and Mamoswine are receiving fairly low usage in OU, with the now-and-then Mamoswine lead. As it's been said in this very thread, these Pokemon aren't used in OU that often. So if Salamence is such a threat to everyone, then why isn't everyone packing one of these said Pokemon in their teams?
And Salamence is weak to SR (another reason why Garchomp was sent to Ubers - it took minimal damage on switch ins), AND even takes damage from Sandstorm. As an added plus (although I'm not sure if this is positive or not), Salamence almost ALWAYS carries Life Orb (67% according to the latest stats), so that's even more residual damage that Salamence is going to take.
Common statement: "But Salamence only needs one or two turns to get its job done, so your statement regarding residual damage is invalid".
I'm expecting some of that ^ But, does Mence really even have time to set up with DD when its health has been suddenly sapped of 25%? And when a Sandstorm is possibly going on? The fact is, Mence goes down, and he goes down FAST.
Mence isn't overcentralizing the metagame, in my opinion, and residual damage (which is present on almost every team) greatly hinders Mence from lasting as long as it should.
Is Salamence Uber? -No
Is Salamence just a really strong OU Pokemon who deserves to stay in its current tier? -Yes
With Stealth Rocks, Sandstorm, and Life Orb factored in, Salamence still has a max of 5 attacks, which based on the numbers given throughout this thread, is more than enough to take out at least 1-2 of your opponents pokemon.
Over-centralization, as you put it, is also not a criteria for sending a pokemon to Ubers. Wobbuffet, for example, was not widely used, but it was still sent to the Uber tier because it was determined that, despite its low usage, that it was too powerful for the OU metagame.
No there isn't much reason to change, but there are some basic pokemon that tear down F/W/G cores with some basic prediction skills. So it's not that big of a deal if people want to use cores like that.
The problem lies in that Salamence is the first suspect test where it has started off in OU and we're seeing what a metagame is without it, and that we must use the Characteristics of an Uber to accompany that decision. When Garchomp and Deoxys-S were being tested the first time, there were no real Characteristics of an Uber and people voted largely on what metagame they found more enjoyable.
It's hard to talk about Salamence breaking the offensive characteristic in a metagame where is there no Salamence, which is why people in this thread have been generally talking about which metagame they prefer instead.
It is a big deal when eventually things will settle down, and there is very little reason not to run a Heatran/Water/Grass core, unless you are running something that beats F/W/G cores strictly and nothing else.
I was so not talking about U-turn. I was saying Bullet Punch (which is Scizor's most used move) rapes both Weavile and Mamoswine.
But I'd like to point out how retarded it is to think that getting a free U-turn on something is bad. Lets take the pokemon that takes the least from U-turn, I think Heatran fits the bill. He takes 12.5% from SR + 13.9% - 16.4% from said U-turn. He is then forced out by the pokemon you send in, making it so that he loses an extra 12.5% from it's next switch-in. You basically just lost ~40% of your health for absolutely nothing. Yeah, a free U-turn is just horrible.
No, I meant Bullet Punch. But your mistake is understandable since I left out the word "the" in my last post by mistake.
Once again, not U-turn, Bullet Punch.
If you're only going to revenge kill me, then I've done my job and you couldn't do shit to stop me. Also, I wasn't referring to you about the counters part, I was referring the the dude who actually said they were counters.
Also, yes, in order for a pokemon to be fair it does need counters. Only counters can prevent pokemon-x from doing its job, and if no way exists for me to prevent pokemon-x from doing its job, then it is not fair. Its simple logic.
The problem is not how many attacks Salamence can get off, its how powerful they are. Salamence is virtually guaranteed those 1-2 kills each game and there is absolutely nothing one can do about it. Now, if you correctly predict a Dragon Dance and switch in your Scarf Starmie to Ice Beam it hell, good for you. Now lets say you're wrong and he Draco Meteors - ouch, you just lost your best bet at taking the fucker out at all.
Also, something for everyone saying that residual damage is Salamence's worse nightmare: If you have to rely on residual damage to take out a pokemon (which most people do when it comes to Salamence) that is a sign that said pokemon is overpowered. Besides, Salamence learns Roost, its a shame most people don't know how to properly use a MixMence.
Here is why I immensely enjoy the metagame without Salamence:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72111 (Jirachi/Salamence)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69338 (Jirachi/Latias)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65744 (Jirachi/Latias/Salamence)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69916 (Jirachi/Latias)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2590285 (Jirachi/Salamence)
etc etc etc.
I think I notice a trend in all the successful teams of the recent metagame. (Most of these were pulled from the OU nominations thread for the RMT archive). Even I'm guilty of a Jirachi/Salamence/Latias type team being one of my go to teams.
From my little bit of testing into the new metagame it has opened up a lot of new possibilities. Complaining about bulkywater/heatran/celebi seems stupid. I feel like you need to have a legitimate plan in hand to succeed in this metagame, not a "throw salamence onto my team and then one of my sweepers will pick up after he kills some shit" teams. If you know half the teams are bulkywater/heatran/celebi you can build around it. Some ideas of been testing successfully:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flygon
The toxic stall Flygon set has worked very well for me. The bulkywaters don't like Toxic, Heatran doesn't want Earthquake, Celebi doesn't like Fire Blast. Skarmory/Forry can't set up on you, he has more defense than you realize to act as a "check" to many things like SD Luke (you don't want to be taking a +2 Extremespeed badly if your not at full health, but you can take it in a pinch).
Why can't you run HP:Electric on Heatran to bust up bulky waters? Or Explosion? You need stealth rock support (and sand preferably, but Explosion can do the trick too). Run some calcs on bulky Vaporeons and Suicune and just think about what you can do if you can do if you HP Elec on the switch or sub on the switch.
Heatran @ Expert Belt
Hasty Nature (+Speed, -Defense)
252 SpAttk, 252 Speed
-Substitute
-HP:Electric
-Earth Power
-Fire Blast/Dragon Pulse/Explosion
This guy is a nightmare to a stall team like Earthworms (if you use Explosion in the last slot for Blissey, might need to put some attack EV's to guarentee an Explosion kill on physically defensive Blisseys). Gyarados can't touch it and dies to Stealth Rock + HP Elec, Blissey can get blown up on to open up another special attacker to abuse of the team, Rotom doesn't even think of coming in with the threat of Fire Blast, Earth Power nails opposing Heatran, etc. Yes, its kind of "gimmicky", but if you need to take out a key bulky water for someone like Infernape it works amazingly well. If you have to settle for blowing up on a Blissey (I like Explosion in the last slot the most) then have something that can abuse of a lack of Blissey (Azelf/Zapdos/Gengar/Rotom/etc)
Gyarados is a problem for your Infernape? Why not run Swords Dance/Thunderpunch to try and take it out and maybe open up a sweep for Lucario? Or maybe run Thunderpunch on your Lucario to take out Gyarados for Infernape? Why not run @Shuca Berry on Lucario with Ice Punch/Thunderpunch for Gliscor/Gyarados? People might scream at you calling it "gimmicky", but if you are setting up a certain other pokemon for a sweep I don't see whats gimmicky about it at all. Your beating common counters to help other pokemon on your team sweep. People just aren't being creative to setup the sweeps they want. Salamence isn't just a fail safe stall breaker anymore. The smogon standard sets are constantly updated as the metagame evolves. With a new metagame you need to use different moves and different sets to accomplish new goals. New standard sets are formed each time the metagame shifts, you just need to stay ahead of the curve and adapt to it quicker to succeed at a higher level.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72111 (Jirachi/Salamence)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69338 (Jirachi/Latias)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65744 (Jirachi/Latias/Salamence)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69916 (Jirachi/Latias)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2590285 (Jirachi/Salamence)
etc etc etc.
I think I notice a trend in all the successful teams of the recent metagame. (Most of these were pulled from the OU nominations thread for the RMT archive). Even I'm guilty of a Jirachi/Salamence/Latias type team being one of my go to teams.
From my little bit of testing into the new metagame it has opened up a lot of new possibilities. Complaining about bulkywater/heatran/celebi seems stupid. I feel like you need to have a legitimate plan in hand to succeed in this metagame, not a "throw salamence onto my team and then one of my sweepers will pick up after he kills some shit" teams. If you know half the teams are bulkywater/heatran/celebi you can build around it. Some ideas of been testing successfully:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flygon
The toxic stall Flygon set has worked very well for me. The bulkywaters don't like Toxic, Heatran doesn't want Earthquake, Celebi doesn't like Fire Blast. Skarmory/Forry can't set up on you, he has more defense than you realize to act as a "check" to many things like SD Luke (you don't want to be taking a +2 Extremespeed badly if your not at full health, but you can take it in a pinch).
Why can't you run HP:Electric on Heatran to bust up bulky waters? Or Explosion? You need stealth rock support (and sand preferably, but Explosion can do the trick too). Run some calcs on bulky Vaporeons and Suicune and just think about what you can do if you can do if you HP Elec on the switch or sub on the switch.
Heatran @ Expert Belt
Hasty Nature (+Speed, -Defense)
252 SpAttk, 252 Speed
-Substitute
-HP:Electric
-Earth Power
-Fire Blast/Dragon Pulse/Explosion
This guy is a nightmare to a stall team like Earthworms (if you use Explosion in the last slot for Blissey, might need to put some attack EV's to guarentee an Explosion kill on physically defensive Blisseys). Gyarados can't touch it and dies to Stealth Rock + HP Elec, Blissey can get blown up on to open up another special attacker to abuse of the team, Rotom doesn't even think of coming in with the threat of Fire Blast, Earth Power nails opposing Heatran, etc. Yes, its kind of "gimmicky", but if you need to take out a key bulky water for someone like Infernape it works amazingly well. If you have to settle for blowing up on a Blissey (I like Explosion in the last slot the most) then have something that can abuse of a lack of Blissey (Azelf/Zapdos/Gengar/Rotom/etc)
Gyarados is a problem for your Infernape? Why not run Swords Dance/Thunderpunch to try and take it out and maybe open up a sweep for Lucario? Or maybe run Thunderpunch on your Lucario to take out Gyarados for Infernape? Why not run @Shuca Berry on Lucario with Ice Punch/Thunderpunch for Gliscor/Gyarados? People might scream at you calling it "gimmicky", but if you are setting up a certain other pokemon for a sweep I don't see whats gimmicky about it at all. Your beating common counters to help other pokemon on your team sweep. People just aren't being creative to setup the sweeps they want. Salamence isn't just a fail safe stall breaker anymore. The smogon standard sets are constantly updated as the metagame evolves. With a new metagame you need to use different moves and different sets to accomplish new goals. New standard sets are formed each time the metagame shifts, you just need to stay ahead of the curve and adapt to it quicker to succeed at a higher level.
This man is absolutely correct. The problem with having this decision be made by 30 or so elitists is that they'll be voting for what metagame they prefer.
I get the sense that Suspect is for comparison to OU. OU does let us see whether Mence breaks a characteristic or not.
Yeah, I would imagine this test will be more about interlinking the two experiences and talking about the positives and negatives of each before coming to a conclusion, rather than just stating what you think about the Suspect ladder and making a decision on that.
Scizor got bullet punch.
Also having to carry stealth rock, sandstorm/hail, and priority for Salamence is just as bad as having to carry two ice type priority moves for Garchomp imo.
Ok, well I think it's been said that Scizor isn't really a counter to Mence in this thread. Even with BP, it sometimes doesn't KO it. Although, I'm pro-OU for Mence so whatever, lol,
Sandstorm is very common in OU with TTar everywhere...
And SR is pretty much on every team.
BP checks Salamence. It doesn't always KO it, but with SR damage factored in it knocks Salamence down to a few attacks.
SR is a great move, however Salamence makes it almost necessary.
Salamence used Fire Blast!
The foe's Scizor Fainted!
Which is why Salamence should be OU. :)
I think if Salamence was banned to Ubers, SR would STILL be on every team, it's an amazing move that makes switching on the opposite side something they couldn't do often.
And @Mudkip master, if after Scizor used BP, and then Mence (which would be VERY low on HP at this point) killed it, wouldn't you just switch to an appropriate counter? I mean, if your team is done after you BP Scizor is out, then I think your team needs some re-evaluating. Just saying.
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