The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Misa]

I've been looking around and found a reasonable check (note the word) to Salamence: Milotic. Yes, I know, it's 2HKO'd by the thing, but still, she pretty much forces Salamence to use Outrage, from which then you can exploit. Draco Meteor does ~60% to 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD Bold Milotic, and Outrage does ~50%. So pretty much, the only way Mence is going to 2HKO you is to use Outrage (Or it dies), so you can go to your Scizor or whatever. Unlike other bulky Waters who gets crippled by DM, Milotic has reliable recovery (Yes, I know Vaporeon can Wish, but when it's at about 30%, Wish loses its reliability).

You're right. Milotic's high SpD allows her to take on Draco Meteors without getting too crippled. The main problem is that, if Salamence was in the standard metagame, how come we never saw a big increase in Milotic usage if it was a good check to mence?

I'm thinking Specially Defensive Suicune also be a counter to MixMence since Suicune has defenses higher compared to Milotic.

Because Salamence is the next target and takes the least amount of skill to use. You can get a kill with Salamence by getting him in and pressing Draco Meteor, which leads a lot of people to believe hes Uber. However, you can do the same thing with other pokemon, like Dragonite using Draco Meteor...

This also means that common sweepers like Infernape could just spam Flare Blitz/Close Combat in order to kill something, or Dragonite using Draco Meteor like you mentioned.

Gengar is nothing to scoff at either. Those immunities he has take him a long way. In addition, the move Substitute just opens up holes on the opposing team. A moveset of Substitute, Shadow Ball, HP Fire, and Focus Punch is very dangerous. This is more responsible for destroying my core than Salamence could ever dream of achieving.

HP Ice and Focus Blast gengar is also quite threatening. But Gengar plays a completely different sweeper compared to Mence, so the two cannot be compared, even if Gengar is way more unpredictable compared to Salamence. Heck, Lucario is a better late-game sweeper compared to Mence but he doesn't function as well as a wall-breaker of sorts (which mence does just fine). Still doesn't stop Lucario from wrecking havoc on the opponent's team.

edit: Mence needs quite a ton of support to work properly, much like Gengar and Lucario. The difference is that Mence is generally better as a wall-breaker/DD while Gengar and Lucario work better as late-game sweeper/cleaners. It doesn't make sense to say that Mence is a better pokemon compared to Gengar/Lucario since they both play different roles.

 

[SubVersion]

Anyways, "backpedalling"? Um, no.

What a good argument. You've sure convinced me!

Calling to your own authority is pretty pointless too, the things I've said in this thread are either right or wrong independently of whether I'm the best player in the world or the worst.

Rattling off base power stats without context, and assuming you've already outplayed your opponent enough to remove anything that you don't want to see, isn't a supportive argument for anything.

 

[TehYoshi]

Oh, and I skimmed over Infernape a little bit in that last explanation. The problem is that yes, it does have many more moves to choose from, but is limited because Pokemon only lets you use four at a time. A standard special fire move is basically present on any Infernape. Whether it's FB on the more common Special MixApes, or Overheat on the physically-based ones, a powerful fire move is pretty much a given. Then, pretty much all Infernape WILL run CC or rarely, Vacuum Wave, for good secondary STAB, or sometimes Focus Blast. In almost all my experiences dealing with enemy Infernape, they run both STAB moves, because it's desirable to be able to hit hard. Then as a third slot, something to deal with Waters, almost always Grass Knot. Thunderpunch is too weak to hit much besides Gyarados. And after that, it's either a boosting move like Nasty Plot or an extra move to deal with Flying types like HP Ice / Stone Edge. The point is, OU has a good selection of bulky waters that can deal with the majority of Infernape, and if it's running something extra-gimmicky, it probably majorly sacrificed coverage of another sort.

Infernape would be unstoppable if it could have CC / FB / Overheat / Grass Knot / Thunderpunch / SE / U-Turn / NP / SD / Vacuum wave / Mach Punch all in one set. But it's limited to four moves that are going to be able to be stopped by something, while Salamence does gain perfect coverage with only its three common moves. I know that's been rehashed over and over again, but it's a major, important point as to why Mence is so potent at wall-breaking.

 

[Misa]

Infernape would be unstoppable if it could have CC / FB / Overheat / Grass Knot / Thunderpunch / SE / U-Turn / NP / SD / Vacuum wave / Mach Punch all in one set. But it's limited to four moves that are going to be able to be stopped by something, while Salamence does gain perfect coverage with only its three common moves. I know that's been rehashed over and over again, but it's a major, important point as to why Mence is so potent at wall-breaking.

Infernape could run something like CC / FB / Grass Knot / Stone Edge with a Life Orb and it would end up 2HKOing almost everything in the metagame. That's pretty damn good coverage if you ask me. (Stone Edge 2HKOs Gyarados and Starmie).

I think we were after viable counters...no?
And Cresselia DOES SUCK thanks to the TOP 2 POKEMON, SCIZOR AND TYRANITAR ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING IT

If your team can't deal with Scizor and Tyranitar it's best that you find counters for those. If you have a counter that deals with Scizor and T-tar then it's safe to say that Cress is a good check to Mence since it is able to counter almost every set that Mence has.

 

[Game Freak201]

HP Ice and Focus Blast gengar is also quite threatening. But Gengar plays a completely different sweeper compared to Mence, so the two cannot be compared, even if Gengar is way more unpredictable compared to Salamence. Heck, Lucario is a better late-game sweeper compared to Mence but he doesn't function as well as a wall-breaker of sorts (which mence does just fine). Still doesn't stop Lucario from wrecking havoc on the opponent's team.

I understand what you're talking about, but I'm not talking about sweeping. Wall breaking is the reason for my posts thus far. Sure, Gengar and Salamence break walls differently. One does so by baiting while the other does so by just being threatening in general. My arguments are being made to be used against the fact that Salamence is this "OMG Super Broken Wall Breaker Breaking Down Cores". Other pokemon can do this more efficiently.

 

[shrang]

@RaikouLover, Cresselia running such a defensive set is most certainly a counter, but tell me, is it viable? I mean considering all the Scizor's out there, and Tyranitar's sandstream screws over moonlight, and can threaten with Pursuit. Cresselia is no longer viable IMO, it gets destroyed by the TOP 2 pokemon in OU..

So he does have a counter. Now don't tell us Mence doesn't have counters. Again, if Tyranitar makes Cresselia so hard to function, ban Tyranitar!! I mean seriously, TTar fits the Support Characteristic so much better than Mence for one reason only: It can control what it kills much, much better than Mence can. I mean, TTar doesn't only make Mence out of hand. He can remove your Rotom-A so SD Scizor, Gyarados can sweep. He makes Zapdos very difficult to function. He can remove your Starmie or whatever the hell your revenge killer is. He can remove Jolteon locked in the wrong move. If Mence has a counter, and that counter is ruined by Tyranitar, remove Tyranitar instead. Oh, and don't get started with Scizor, Cress can always run HP Fire if it gets out of hand.

 

[Misa]

I understand what you're talking about, but I'm not talking about sweeping. Wall breaking is the reason for my posts thus far. Sure, Gengar and Salamence break walls differently. One does so by baiting while the other does so by just being threatening in general. My arguments are being made to be used against the fact that Salamence is this "OMG Super Broken Wall Breaker Breaking Down Cores". Other pokemon can do this more efficiently.

I'm not against your opinion, I'm all for it.

But I just want to make sure that Gengar is generally better as a late-game sweeper instead of a Wall-breaker since Gengar has a bit of trouble taking out bulkier walls such as Blissey as well as Specially-defensive Suicune/Umbreon. Infernape and Dragonite are the only two pokemon that are considered wall-breakers but Infernape and Salamence both have different ways of breaking walls. Lucario and Salamence can also be late-game sweepers, but Lucario is generally better at this due to more resistances as well as access to extremespeed (as well as not being shard bait)

For example, MixMence doesn't like to deal with things like Bronzong and Metagross too much but Infernape runs over those two. At the same time, Salamence doesn't have too much trouble battling against Tentacruel and Gyarados, two pokemon that give Infernape problems.

edit: Just to clarify, it's not that other wall-breakers are better compared to Mence, but rather that Mence breaks certain types of walls better.
edit 2: If Shrang wasn't being sarcastic, I wouldn't be too against a Tyranitar suspect test since T-tar changed the metagame a LOT more than Salamence did. It could be that Tyranitar does fit the uber category of support, but we never know.

 

[Zelrio]

Can you guys, like, make some real points and actually address the points pro-Uber supporters have been making thus far rather than coming into the thread and spouting your ignorant opinions? You're not helping anything by saying "Salamece is obviously not Uber and you guys are too dumb to beat it", you're just wasting the time of people who're reading this and came for a well-informed, legitimate discussion on Salamence.

Once again, it's not "predict what set it's using", it's "predict absolutely everything it does 100% to keep it from destroying your team because it's decently fast, very powerful, has perfect coverage, and is quite capable of beating all of its checks/counters. If you can't address or counter any of the arguments the other side has made thus far, you have absolutely no right to claim whose arguments are viable or not.


Way too late to pull that neutral crap. You just stated quite clearly that you don't think Salamence is broken, insulted everyone who disagrees, and aren't bothering to explain why.

We've been discussing for the entire thread why we think Salamence is/isn't broken, so there's no point in doubling back for the nth time to explain the principle ideas behind the discussion. If you've been playing this game or reading this thread, you already know, and you've already outlined some ideas as to why. Now connect the dots: what is your stance and how can you back it up?

It wasn't a personal attack, but you revealed yourself to be a raging hypocrite by carrying out one on your own. I was pointing out the fact that the only argument you folks have brought up is "you need to predict and thats imposibull!", and you responded by doing just that. Maybe we should ban all pokemon from carrying more than one move just to appease you.

 

[TheValkyries]

So he does have a counter. Now don't tell us Mence doesn't have counters.

Yes he has counters. Two in fact. Cresselia and Regirock (in the sand). However they are 50th and 128th overall usage in May at 2.59% and .59% respectively. So, yes, Mence does have counters, but they are are random obscure pokemon from absolutely nowhere that can't function well in the rest of the Meta.

Again, if Tyranitar makes Cresselia so hard to function, ban Tyranitar!!

I am honestly appalled that you were allowed to vote on tiering with that kind of logic. Cresselia has a terrible typing with a terrible recovery move. Tyranitar happens to take advantage of both and just makes Cress his bitch. That doesn't mean Tyranitar is overpowered, it means Cresselia sucks and is really only a specialty pokemon.

I mean seriously, TTar fits the Support Characteristic so much better than Mence for one reason only: It can control what it kills much, much better than Mence can.

No, TTar doesn't have any control... Pursuit has control. If you honestly feel that hitting the pokemon you intend to hit is overpowered, then ban Pursuit, and ban Dugtrio. Oh, wait, that's right, both are completely useless against the majority of the metagame, so are actually balanced.

EDIT: That may sound as if I'm saying Wobbuffet wasn't overpowered. I just want to clarify before there's any misconceptions that I don't think that at all. I'm only saying Pursuit and Dugtrio's versions of hitting what they intend are far inferior to Wobbuffet's ability to do the same.

If Mence has a counter, and that counter is ruined by Tyranitar, remove Tyranitar instead. Oh, and don't get started with Scizor, Cress can always run HP Fire if it gets out of hand.

Yes, Mence isn't the overpowered one, it's obviously the pokemon that can take out all two of his counters even though those counters barely exist in the meta.

 

[shrang]

TTar is not only making Cresselia his bitch. He makes pretty much everything that is weak to Pursuit his bitch. As I said, Mence isn't the only one benefitting from Tyranitar, Ape, Gyarados, Metagross, Scizor, all love Tyranitar removing Starmie, Rotom-A, whatever. He removes MANY, MANY checks and make MANY, MANY sweepers very dangerous. No, Tyranitar isn't overpowered, but he doesn't have to be. He is not sweeping, only removing your checks so something else can sweep. I'm also laughing at the fact that you're trashing my logic while you come up with this:

No, TTar doesn't have any control... Pursuit has control. If you honestly feel that hitting the pokemon you intend to hit is overpowered, then ban Pursuit, and ban Dugtrio. Oh, wait, that's right, both are completely useless against the majority of the metagame, so are actually balanced.

That's like saying to someone "Oh the murderer didn't kill the other guy, the bullet did!!" I mean what the hell?? If I apply your logic, I can easily say: "Oh Salamence isn't broken, Draco Meteor is". *facepalms*

 

[Misa]

Yes, Mence isn't the overpowered one, it's obviously the pokemon that can take out all two of his counters even though those counters barely exist in the meta.

T-tar is also stopping things that could potentially hamper Mence's ability to sweep, such as taking out Gengar, Rotom, Starmie, Latias, Scarftran, not to mention most things that are faster than Mence

If Salamence's checks are taken out, it makes Mence's ability to sweep that much easier. With Tyranitar's bulk and typing, he switches into almost anything that is aimed at Mence and shreds that said pokemon trying to harm Mence into bits. All the other pursuiters cannot boast this.

anyways, we're not talking about T-tar. We're talking about Mence so can we please not bring T-tar into this?

 

[Baldafor]

Oh, and don't get started with Scizor, Cress can always run HP Fire if it gets out of hand.

I was trying really hard just to not say anything and play rather than theorycraft, but I can't resist.

252/252 Bold Cresselia HP Fire 70 vs. standard Choice Band Scizor: 57.1% - 67.6%

That is all.

 

[Misa]

I was trying really hard just to not say anything and play rather than theorycraft, but I can't resist.

252/252 Bold Cresselia HP Fire 70 vs. standard Choice Band Scizor: 57.1% - 67.6%

That is all.

So HP Fire always 2HKOs Scizor? So much for Scizor checking Bold Cress then.

 

[kiminator]

i think before even considering putting Salamence into Uber I think they should consider putting Jirachi into Uber

 

[Misa]

i think before even considering putting Salamence into Uber I think they should consider putting Jirachi into Uber

A beginner's tip: Always back up why you think of things. For example, if you want to put Jirachi into uber, say a good reason for why Jirachi should be uber.

 

[jumpluff]

No one uses HP Fire on Cress. ^^;; Scizor easily beats it. It can come in on anything that Cresselia is likely to be using (especially since it's usually going to be using Ice Beam for Salamence) and U-turn out on it. If HP Fire was oommon on Cressy, then it would be fair to say Scizor isn't a good check, though it would still be able to deal with Cresselia. But it isn't.

| Cresselia | Move | Other (11) | < 7.9 |

And I'm sure less than that is HP Fire, given Cresselia's number of helpful support options.

 

[Shizzle]

So he does have a counter. Now don't tell us Mence doesn't have counters. Again, if Tyranitar makes Cresselia so hard to function, ban Tyranitar!! I mean seriously, TTar fits the Support Characteristic so much better than Mence for one reason only: It can control what it kills much, much better than Mence can. I mean, TTar doesn't only make Mence out of hand. He can remove your Rotom-A so SD Scizor, Gyarados can sweep. He makes Zapdos very difficult to function. He can remove your Starmie or whatever the hell your revenge killer is. He can remove Jolteon locked in the wrong move. If Mence has a counter, and that counter is ruined by Tyranitar, remove Tyranitar instead. Oh, and don't get started with Scizor, Cress can always run HP Fire if it gets out of hand.

Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. And you are going heavily off track. Cresselia is a TERRIBLE pokemon with both Tyranitar and Scizor being in the top #3 used pokemon. Tell me you want to use one which gets owned by 2 of them?

And whats more, implying that Cresselia can counter Salamence is also making Cresselia is SPECIALISED as a Salamence wall, it doesn't stop most other Physical Sweepers. Can you name any VIABLE counter to Salamence?

 

[Misa]

And whats more, implying that Cresselia can counter Salamence is also making Cresselia is SPECIALISED as a Salamence wall, it doesn't stop most other Physical Sweepers. Can you name any VIABLE counter to Salamence?

Specially Defensive Suicune/Milotic, Choice Scarf Jirachi and Bronzong (so much for correctly prediction Fire Blast 100% of the time. If so then Cress and Regirock scare it even more).

Anyways, Cresselia is far from being a terrible pokemon, especially with its defenses rivaling Lugia as well as having a myriad of support moves. Sure it gets killed by pursuit but so does a lot of other pokemon.

 

[RaikouLover]

And whats more, implying that Cresselia can counter Salamence is also making Cresselia is SPECIALISED as a Salamence wall, it doesn't stop most other Physical Sweepers. Can you name any VIABLE counter to Salamence?

*Yawns* Gyarados *Yawns* Infernape (Thunderwave).. Yeah Cresselia is a 100% only Salamence wall..

Your dismissing a pokemon that is a legit BL pokemon, hence banned from UU that is a 100% counter to the two most popular Salamence sets that you see. And Scizor / Tar are the top two usage, but they don't 100% beat Cresselia.. you forget she can Psycho Shift Burns, or just use Reflect and Pursuit has shit power if she actually stays in...

Don't going throwing that Salamence has no counters bullshit around. That's all I'm saying... I gave you one.. find a different pitch for your argument.

Also, for those of you bitching about DDMence, Choice Band Bronzong (A legit non-gimmick pokemon thanks to trick) can switch into Salamence on a DD and OHKO with Gyro Ball.. It was my Salamence counter for a while. Yeah it technically can't switch into Fire Blast, but no DD Salamence spams Fire Blast when it can sweep the other team "with little effort"

 

[shrang]

Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. And you are going heavily off track. Cresselia is a TERRIBLE pokemon with both Tyranitar and Scizor being in the top #3 used pokemon. Tell me you want to use one which gets owned by 2 of them?

And whats more, implying that Cresselia can counter Salamence is also making Cresselia is SPECIALISED as a Salamence wall, it doesn't stop most other Physical Sweepers. Can you name any VIABLE counter to Salamence?

My logic doesn't make sense?? How does it make any less sense than yours?? I'm showing reasoning while you're just going "Nope, your logic sucks" without giving any reasons. Yes, I'm going off course, but Cresselia is a reasonable Salamence counter nonetheless. If it requires TTar and Scizor to remove it, that means Salamence needs more support than is needed for him to be Uber. Basically you're just going "Oh Salamence has a counter, but we're going to exclude that for reasons that I'm not explaining fully, NOW BAN HIM!"

 

[htmlmaster]

Salamence has never been a problem to my team. Here's why:

1. Scarf Flygon - Outspeeds mence, ties Mence+1 - whoever moves first gets a KO
2. Specs Gengar - Unorthodox, yes, but with choice specs and SR, Salamence will always be outsped and KO'd by a shadow ball
3. Suicune - It can take any of Salamence's attacks once, then KO with ice beam.
4. Scizor - Obviously Scizor is useless if it takes an intimidate. However, if Salamence is stuck in an outrage, it's dead.
5. Infernape - Not only will Infernape with HP ice outspeed and KO Salamence, but with SR and a life orb, a nasty plotted Infernape's Fire Blast with KO.

That's 5 pokemon on my team that can handle Salamence. None of them are perfect counters mainly because it's difficult for them to switch into Mence's attacks, which I imagine is the central argument of this thread. While that prevents them from being hard counters in the conventional sense, I ask why this is a problem. Is it really broken if you need to sacrifice a pokemon in order to take out a pokemon? I hardly consider it a bad deal, especially if Salamence is your opponent's super-awesome late game sweeper. On top of that, it's not like Salamence is impossible to predict. It's moveset is fairly limited, and you generally know what's coming. Steel types take outrages like they're nothing. If you expect them to counter a steel with a fire blast, send in water types or Heatran, if you expect an earthquake, send in something that flies. If you're unfortunate enough to let a Salamence set up a DD or even two, send in priority move user. Anything with ice shard is an instant kill, and CB-Scizor with SR support will bring Salamence to the point where life orb recoil is fatal.

Just a note, the 6th pokemon on my main team is not a Salamence - I have no direct loss by banning Salamence. However, from a little bit of experimenting on the suspect ladder and after seeing an apparently huge drop in Salamence's usage from Standard, I've came to the conclusion that many have already realized - Without Salamence, Stall with flourish to a ridiculous extent. I've always been a fast-paced high offense battler, so to me, this would kill the spirit of the metagame. When two stall teams go against each other, it ends up being a grueling ordeal that's just unbearable to watch. If you want what at least I would consider an exciting metagame, keep it as it is.

 

[Shizzle]

@Misa, Suicune/Milotic can't safely switch into a Draco Meteor then take an Outrage
Also there is no proper SpD Wall set for Milotic zZz
Bold Milotic 248 HP / 252 Def
Naive 240 SpA Draco Meteor vs Bold Milotic 248 HP / 0 SpD

316 Atk vs 286 Def & 393 HP (140 Base Power): 216 - 255 (54.96% - 64.89%)

Naive 16 Atk Outrage vs Bold Milotic 248 HP / 252 Def

310 Atk vs 282 Def & 393 HP (120 Base Power): 184 - 217 (46.82% - 55.22%)

=High chance for 2HKO, and thats not including leftovers.

Suicune 252 HP / 252 Def
Naive 240 SpA Draco Meteor vs Bold Suicune 252 HP / 0 SpD

316 Atk vs 266 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 232 - 274 (57.43% - 67.82%)

Naive 16 Atk Outrage vs Bold Suicune 252 HP / 252 Def

310 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 144 - 171 (35.64% - 42.33%)

Which is something like a 50/50 chance to 2HKO when you factor in Stealth Rock and one turn of Leftovers. It can't switch in on either of its STAB moves, Draco Meteor being the most likely one to be spammed first.

Choice Scarf Jirachi is defnitely NOT a counter, it can revenge kill, then again almost anything can revenge kill anything, so >.>, not to mention it takes SE from 2 of its 4 attacks.

Bronzong can work as a counter, however it still takes a LOT of damage from Fire Blast.
Naive 240 SpA Fire Blast vs Sassy Bronzong 252 HP / 92 SpD

316 Atk vs 320 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 222 - 262 (65.68% - 77.51%)

@shrang, you continue to disclude every single other argument that has been presented, and with each new one, you say 'so you are banning him for this reason only, thats stupid', look at all the fucking other issues instead of picking out one and sayings its the only reason. This is a debate as to whether or not Salamence should be uber or not, and do you think that Scizor and Tyranitar are there to 'support Salamence?' No, they are there because they both can function well in a team, Scizor is a great revenge killer, and has lots of power with its priority STAB. Tyranitar damages heavily offensive teams just with its ability, and has great all round stats, allowing him to take on many roles. And you think that both of them are chosen only because they support Salamence?

 

[TheValkyries]

TTar is not only making Cresselia his bitch. He makes pretty much everything that is weak to Pursuit his bitch. As I said, Mence isn't the only one benefitting from Tyranitar, Ape, Gyarados, Metagross, Scizor, all love Tyranitar removing Starmie, Rotom-A, whatever.

Too bad the only set that outspeeds those two checks is ScarfTar, and ScarfTar locked on pursuit is the ultimate Lucario set up bait.

He removes MANY, MANY checks

Of which you've managed to list a grand total of TWO.

and make MANY, MANY sweepers very dangerous. No, Tyranitar isn't overpowered, but he doesn't have to be. He is not sweeping, only removing your checks so something else can sweep.

Oh, so let's ban all the things that remove Lucario's counters, because he's very dangerous with support too. Being able to checkmate Psychic and Ghost types is cool and all, but isn't as threatening as you seem to think since most pokemon don't have only one counter to worry about that happens to be one of the two types. Unless of course you're named Salamence. But, yeah... TTar's the overpowered one. Just like how Articuno isn't useless; Stealth Rock is just overpowered.

I'm also laughing at the fact that you're trashing my logic while you come up with this:
That's like saying to someone "Oh the murderer didn't kill the other guy, the bullet did!!" I mean what the hell??

Well you're saying the Murderer didn't kill the guy either, that in fact it was the guy who sold him the gun.

I'd also like to remind you you're the one who brought pursuit up. You were the first to mention TTar's ability to "control what it kills". An ability that is shared by 9 other OU pokemon, and is a pretty shitty move against anything that isn't Psychic or Ghost.

If I apply your logic, I can easily say: "Oh Salamence isn't broken, Draco Meteor is". *facepalms*

Fun Fact: That's half correct. Dragon typing in general is retarded since it's resisted by only one type. No other sweeper can say that. Salamence is not only the fastest user of Draco Meteor in OU, but it's also the strongest. It is tied for the fastest Outrage in OU, and is also the strongest. It is the combination of of it's overall strength, speed and STAB that makes him overpowered.

 

[TheValkyries]

Words

Yes, Salamence has a counter. His counter also eats shit when it comes to the number 3 most used pokemon in OU. If you need to come up with some obscure pokemon that is topping all charts at a grand total of 2.59% usage in OU, then something is a bit off.

I'd also like to point out that Cresselia was a reliable Garchomp counter as well. Whatever happened to Garchomp?

 

[mtr]

Well, keep in mind the Ubers characteristics refer to "common metagame conditions", and Cresselia isn't common, because she's completely gimped by Tyranitar, who is just under Salamence in terms of usage.