Breloom (Update)

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/breloom

I love Breloom and its analysis is pretty tl;dr and has some akward sentencing. Its also the best of pkmns and destroyer of teams. First attempt @ C&C, be gentle. :toast:

Philio0786 and the Kurnel said i can do this

list of changes (mostly for my own reference):
Changes name of Spore Puncher to SubPunch
Removed Honchkrow as being listed as a counter
Changed Facade set name to All-out Attacker
Fixed first set to list Gliscor as a situational counter (assuming no seed bomb)
Slashed Adamant and Impish on SubSeed set
Added Dual Status set + comments
Slashed jolly with adamant in SubPunch set.
slashed bulk-up/sd with superpower on the all out attacker set. (I don't agree with this though, since its basically the same as the SD set but if anyone else can make a suggestion as to why it should(n't) be there post)
added stuff according to CiM's post.
included in just the first set what stuff is outsped with jolly nature and 224 Spe EVs as opposed to adamant and 244 - thanks to stylish interval for pming me this stuff. :)

[SET]
name: SubPunch
move1: Spore
move2: Focus Punch
move3: Seed Bomb / Stone Edge
move4: Substitute
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe

-100% accurate status move
-sleep + focus punch is a good combo
-STAB base 150 power move, ability heals better than leftovers, heals in sandstorm/hail
-swell coverage and plenty of opportunities to come in
-spore is signature move, only shared with smeargle and parasect
-stone edge hits gyara and mence while substitute eases prediction

additional comments:
-max attack and adamant nature give highest potential damage output
-12 hp is the magic toxic orb number and 244 spe EVs reach 237 Speed, which will allow you to outpace Defensive Suicune, Rotom-A and BaitTar
-alternate ev spread is 36 hp / 252 atk / 224 spe with a jolly nature to catch stuff like Defensive Celebi who beat Adamant Breloom off-guard
-jolly with 224 Spe will outspeed: Defensive Celebi, MixNite, Defensive Zapdos, Modest Max Speed Heatran, Empoleon (all sets), bulk up heracross, defensive suicune and defensive rotom-a and other breloom

teammates and counters
-any special sweeper really helps as it can lure out pokemon like blissey who breloom can set up on
-pursuit weak pokemon are good too as they can lure out scarftar/scizor and it can set up to them locked into pursuit
-if substitute is the last move, salamence counters this set due to intimidate + resistances
-gliscor can counter if it has taunt, assuming breloom isn't running seed bomb, but can only fight back with Aerial Ace
-without substitute starmie can switch in on focus punch and OHKO with ice beam

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move1: Spore
move2: Substitute
move3: Leech Seed
move4: Focus Punch
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish / Adamant (Slashed because I have had better success with Adamant than Impish)
evs: 236 HP / 248 Def / 24 Spe

-100% accurate sleep move makes seeding much easier
-focus punch prevents some taunters from forcing it out
-gains poison heal recovery and leech seed health, allowing recreating subs easier
-focus punch is still a very powerful move with no investment and can 2HKO standard metagross and many other pokemon that neutral to it

additional comments
-236 HP evs allow for maximum recovery from poison heal, 248 is for minimizing damage taken, 24 spe outpace most skarmory sets
-alternate ev spread of 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe and an Adamant nature are for a more offensive approach.
-44 hp evs give max poison heal recovery, 252 atk maxes damage output, 212 spe outpace adamant tyranitar
-the choice of Impish or Adamant is about damage output v. damage taken Impish only takes ~50% from CB Scizor Bullet Punch and Adamant takes ~54% but will do slightly more damage

counters and teammates
-celebi is a 100% counter, resists focus punch and is immune to leech seed, can hurt it with HP fire
-tentacruel can counter it as it resists focus punch and hurts breloom with luquid ooze and can hurt with sludge bomb
-rotom-a, specifically rotom-h, dusknior and other ghost types can work well to stop it, but still need to look out for leech seed
-salamence and gliscor can beat this set, with fire blast and taunt respectively
-scarftar is a good teammate as it can get rid of ghost-types, hit salamence with stone edge, and eq tentacruel
-starmie is also a good teammate as it can clear out enemy grass-types

[SET]
name: All-out Attacker
move1: Spore
move2: Seed bomb
move3: Facade
move4: Superpower / Bulk Up / Swords Dance
item: Toxic orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

-toxic orb is easily abused with breloom and facade takes advantage of this
-seed bomb is a powerful stab move with decent coverage
-superpower is a powerful base 120 STAB move, but should be used sparingly as it lowers attack by 1 stage each use

additional comments
-252 atk gains as much damage output as possible
-mach punch is an option for outspeeding faster pokemon such as lucario and choice scarf tyranitar as well has weakened pokemon who may try to switch in and revenge kill it
-bulk up and swords dance let it not get crippled by intimidators and let it use its free turn to set up for more damage output

counters and teammates
-skarmory can reliably counter this set as it resists all its attacks and Superpower will fail to 2HKO any variant.
-salamence can counter this set as well, thanks to intimidate, as can gyarados
-ghost-types in general can also counter this set as they are immune to facade and superpower
-pursuit users work well to clear out enemy ghost types

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move1: Swords Dance
move2: Mach Punch
move3: Seed Bomb / Stone Edge
move4: Spore / Facade
item: Toxic Orb / Life Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Adamant
evs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe

-swords dance will boost breloom's attack to 1024, when holding a life orb
-+2 Mach punch will kill almost everything weak to fighting
-choice between spore or facade depends on if the item is life orb or toxic orb, respectively.
-stone edge or seed bomb is depending on what you want to hit more, +2 seed bomb will OHKO gyarados after intimidate

additional comments
-12 HP is magic poison heal number, 252 attack is for highest damage output, 244 speed is to outrun as much as possible
-Life Orb will secure more OHKO's, but Toxic Orb gives a bit more staying power

counters and teammates
-offensive Celebi can counter this set, but it should look out for Facade
-rotom-h can come in on mach punch and KO with overheat
-starmie can come in on mach punches and kill with ice beam
-tyranitar is good for taking out psychic and ghost-types, magnezone is good for taking out steel-types such as forry and scizor

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Spore
move2: Superpower
move3: Seed Bomb
move4: Stone Edge
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

-choice scarf nulls breloom's low speed
-Superpower is a powerful STAB attack and great for revenge killing
-Seed Bomb takes out bulky waters, and Stone Edge hits Mence/Gyara and the like
-spore can take out a sweeper or wall, assuming it doesn't have natural cure
-can shut down leads with spore

additional comments
-jolly and 252 spe allows it to be as fast as possible, reaching 393 speed
-set is designed to take out a pokemon with spore, then come back later and revenge kill
-outspeeds DD gyara before a DD

counters and teammates
-celebi and starmie are decent counters due to natural cure and resistance to superpower
-same teammates work as mentioned in all the other sets, a set up sweeper works well with this set as it can set up on spored pokemon

[SET]
name: Dual Status
move1: Spore
move2: Stun Spore
move3: Focus Punch / Superpower / Sky Uppercut
move4: Seed Bomb / Stone Edge
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Adamant
evs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe

-works well to paralyze faster threats who may come in to revenge you
-same evs for magic poison heal max attack etc
-Focus Punch works well if you have good parahax luck/prediction, superpower is an option if you just want to damage something then switch, sky uppercut is its only really other decent option and is an okay STAB move
-seed bomb for dual stab/bulky waters, stone edge takes out mence and togekiss and stuff

additional comments:
-standard evs, an alternate ev spread of 236 HP, 248 Atk, 24 Spe can be used for a bulkier spread if you wish to play it more defensively
-jolly nature can be run if you wish to outspeed other breloom

teammates and counters:
-celebi is your safest bet, starmie can also counter it provided breloom doesn't have seed bomb
-lum salamence is also a fairly reliable counter, shrugging off status on the switch and hitting with fire blast
-pairs well with slower sweepers such as machamp or nasty plot togekiss

*sorry i havent updated, i assumed qc people would look at it and if it didnt get stamped it wasnt worthy, won't happen again I promise.*

Important: SevenDeadlySins has requested that this be locked after it gets stamped, because we are going to work on it together and he wants to go ahead and make the OP in the OU forum so he can edit what he wants and all that jazz.


 
1st post!

Make sure you stay consistent with capitalizing the later sets, don't forget.

I'm sure there will be quite a bit of debate about this, but I believe this set:

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move1: Spore
move2: Substitute
move3: Leech Seed
move4: Focus Punch
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish
evs: 236 HP / 248 Def / 24 Spe

will be better off with an Adamant nature. Breloom can be bulky but he doesnt need to be THAT bulky!

Also, I've had excellent success with double-status so we should find a way to add that. Spore + Stun Spore means you've crippled 1/3 of their team just by coming out!
 
Yeah I always ran Adamant when I used that set, but the site said impish and idk why, its pretty useless imo. Do I slash it or change it with bold letters? halp i dont know what to do! ;__;

Also, I was thinking even though CB loom was taken off site, it should be added, its not horrible, and a bse 130 attack with STAB priority coming of a Choice band can pack quite a punch.
 
I agree with Double Status, its a really cute set actually and cripple alot of stuff and i used to to great success when Latias was around. Stun Sporing Mence etc on the switch in after something has taken a Spore on their team is hilarious and really helps alot of Pokemon. It essentially makes 2 of their team useless when played right.

Also could CB Loom be added possibly ? I dont know why it was removed honestly because it was really good. It really fucks up alot of its common checks and all you really have to do is scout with Stone Edge. Seed Bomb messes up Gliscor badly since it cant Roost either due to being faster so gets hit SE with Seed Bomb. I used it in conjunction with Luke and CB Loom makes an amazing lure to many of Lukes counters and STAB Mach Punch coming from a huge attack stat is never a bad thing.

SuperPower/Seed Bomb/Stone Edge/Mach Punch or Spore @ CB works well.
 
CBLoom is incredibly uninteresting. Not only is choiced Sleep incredibly stupid, but it has shitty bulk, a shitty movepool, and Grass is a kinda lame STAB. I never thought I'd say this, but it's pretty much explicitly outclassed by Heracross, which is bulkier, has better STABs, pretty much the same resistances, but no weakness to Ice.
 
Just posting to definitely recommend a double status set; after all, everything is going to switch out of Breloom after being slept, so it's very easy to hit the switch-in with a Stun Spore...it was actually a VERY effective set during Latias' reign of terror in OU, but it's still quite good. :)
 
A few notes: Spore punching breloom is not countered by taunt gliscor, as Breloom kills it off with seed bomb before Gliscor can KO with EQ. And Gliscor can't roost against it.

I see no reason to make SubSeed Breloom Adamant. You have 1 attacking move and 3 defensive ones. Additionally, Focus Punch destroys things it should even without the +attack nature, and barely scratches Breloom's counters, nature or not. You're much better off going with Impish, to better take UTurns from weaker physical attackers or survive random physical attacks with enough HP to make a sub.

And is it worthwhile to say that scarfBreloom outruns DD gyara before a DD?? Shouldn't any scarfer be able to do that??
 
Oh also, I'm heavily against Scarf Breloom. Again, Choiced Sleep is really, really dumb, and outside of Spore, Choiced Breloom is just a shitty Heracross. I'd like to move that it be removed from the analysis.

EDIT: Other important changes-

  • Spore Puncher should be renamed SubPunch and have Stone Edge as a slash alternative to Seed Bomb, NOT Substitute. Sub is so, SO crucial to how Breloom functions, and the fact that it's a secondary option is unacceptable.
  • Facade should be renamed to All-out Attacker, since it's a set that doesn't bother with setting up, and Facade isn't the "big draw" of the set- immediate damage and power is.
  • Honchkrow probably shouldn't be mentioned as a counter mainly because it dies horribly to Focus Punch and is SR weak as well. It's also solidly BL and shaky to switch in anyway.
 
CBLoom is incredibly uninteresting. Not only is choiced Sleep incredibly stupid, but it has shitty bulk, a shitty movepool, and Grass is a kinda lame STAB. I never thought I'd say this, but it's pretty much explicitly outclassed by Heracross, which is bulkier, has better STABs, pretty much the same resistances, but no weakness to Ice.

We talked about this on IRC but I'll sum it up for other people: Scarf is dumb too for reasons SDS stated below, its basically the CB set but faster and hits like a wet rag.

Just posting to definitely recommend a double status set; after all, everything is going to switch out of Breloom after being slept, so it's very easy to hit the switch-in with a Stun Spore...it was actually a VERY effective set during Latias' reign of terror in OU, but it's still quite good. :)

Apparently dual status loom is some godly set I haven't heard of or used, I'm interested in testing this out if anyone cares to show me the set.

A few notes: Spore punching breloom is not countered by taunt gliscor, as Breloom kills it off with seed bomb before Gliscor can KO with EQ. And Gliscor can't roost against it.

I see no reason to make SubSeed Breloom Adamant. You have 1 attacking move and 3 defensive ones. Additionally, Focus Punch destroys things it should even without the +attack nature, and barely scratches Breloom's counters, nature or not. You're much better off going with Impish, to better take UTurns from weaker physical attackers or survive random physical attacks with enough HP to make a sub.

And is it worthwhile to say that scarfBreloom outruns DD gyara before a DD?? Shouldn't any scarfer be able to do that??

1. Oh my bad well, I guess I should say Gliscor shuts it down if it opts for Stone Edge instead of Seed Bomb as it does 27.1% - 31.6% to it so it can outstall it.

2. The difference in damage taken v. damage dealt is a little different. You take ~50% from CB Scizor Bullet punch with Impish and ~54% with Adamant. Either way, after SR you have enough health left to Spore, Sub, Seed, resub or punch depending on if it wakes up. So its just a trade off. I guess I'll slash them.

3. Well its just a selling point I guess and its mentioned on basically every other scarf set so I don't see the harm. ;D;;

Oh also, I'm heavily against Scarf Breloom. Again, Choiced Sleep is really, really dumb, and outside of Spore, Choiced Breloom is just a shitty Heracross. I'd like to move that it be removed from the analysis.

I agree, ScarfLoom is a gimmick at best, you sleep something, but thanks to sleep clause you have to switch to something else and hope for the 1/5 chance you get a favorable matchup agianst whatever they switch to.

EDIT: Other important changes-

  • Spore Puncher should be renamed SubPunch and have Stone Edge as a slash alternative to Seed Bomb, NOT Substitute. Sub is so, SO crucial to how Breloom functions, and the fact that it's a secondary option is unacceptable.
  • Facade should be renamed to All-out Attacker, since it's a set that doesn't bother with setting up, and Facade isn't the "big draw" of the set- immediate damage and power is.
  • Honchkrow probably shouldn't be mentioned as a counter mainly because it dies horribly to Focus Punch and is SR weak as well. It's also solidly BL and shaky to switch in anyway.

I agree with the first bullet and the second although I think Toxic Orb Abuse sounds cooler. :S

The last point I don't know, because whenever I use breloom my first move is always Spore, so Honchkrow can come in and outspeed and KO with Drill Peck or set up a sub. It does have those drawbacks though. Its gimmicky to use it at best, but thats not to say its without merit. I'll edit it out though.
 
Oh also, I'm heavily against Scarf Breloom. Again, Choiced Sleep is really, really dumb, and outside of Spore, Choiced Breloom is just a shitty Heracross. I'd like to move that it be removed from the analysis.

EDIT: Other important changes-

  • Spore Puncher should be renamed SubPunch and have Stone Edge as a slash alternative to Seed Bomb, NOT Substitute. Sub is so, SO crucial to how Breloom functions, and the fact that it's a secondary option is unacceptable.
  • Facade should be renamed to All-out Attacker, since it's a set that doesn't bother with setting up, and Facade isn't the "big draw" of the set- immediate damage and power is.
  • Honchkrow probably shouldn't be mentioned as a counter mainly because it dies horribly to Focus Punch and is SR weak as well. It's also solidly BL and shaky to switch in anyway.
Seven Deadly Sins and I have been discussing these changes for a while now, and I obviously agree with them being performed. So I'll wait for these details before giving this update my stamp of approval.
 
Why Dual Status when you can Tri Status?

Breloom with Spore, Stun Spore, Fling and Focus Punch. Fling is the crux of this set, allowing you to throw your useless Toxic Orb at the opponent and poison them; ultimately allowing you to cripple 1/2 of the opponent's team.
 
I agree with all of the QC members' suggested changes except the removal of ScarfLoom. Having a fast guaranteed sleep can be a lifesaver against Calm Minders, and other random threats. I have also used it extensively in the past and have been pleased with its performance. We'll wait on other members to weigh in.
 
I am against the removal of scarloom, its works fairy well as a good lead, its a good swtich in to ttar and can be a backup plan vs bulky waters.

I used this set a lot and have a ton of experience with scarfloom and it deserves a spot on the analysis
 
I am against the removal of scarloom, its works fairy well as a good lead, its a good swtich in to ttar and can be a backup plan vs bulky waters.

I used this set a lot and have a ton of experience with scarfloom and it deserves a spot on the analysis

This is what I was going to say it has been successful for me so I think it more then deserves a spot.
 
I see no reason to make SubSeed Breloom Adamant. You have 1 attacking move and 3 defensive ones. Additionally, Focus Punch destroys things it should even without the +attack nature, and barely scratches Breloom's counters, nature or not. You're much better off going with Impish, to better take UTurns from weaker physical attackers or survive random physical attacks with enough HP to make a sub.

Adamant nature keeps Focus Punch hitting off 325 attack? Impish on something with base 80 defense and no intimidate isn't really worth a free 10% rise in power. With Adamant and the current spread listed, you still are 3HKOed by CB Tar Stone Edge, and Scizor has the only U-turn breaking your Subs with that spread!!! So I don't see why Impish it seems random as hell
 
I think going 252 Spe EVs + Jolly should be mentioned. It beats Adamant Gyarados by 1 and catches people looking to outspeed most Breloom off guard. The power packed by Breloom is sufficient and that fast Spore can really save the day. This is mostly for the Spore Puncher and SubSeed sets
 
I think going 252 Spe EVs + Jolly should be mentioned. It beats Adamant Gyarados by 1 and catches people looking to outspeed most Breloom off guard. The power packed by Breloom is sufficient and that fast Spore can really save the day. This is mostly for the Spore Puncher and SubSeed sets

oh i read this wrong at first, yes for scarf it should be jolly not adamant
 
I think going 252 Spe EVs + Jolly should be mentioned. It beats Adamant Gyarados by 1 and catches people looking to outspeed most Breloom off guard. The power packed by Breloom is sufficient and that fast Spore can really save the day. This is mostly for the Spore Puncher and SubSeed sets

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Spore
move2: Superpower
move3: Seed Bomb
move4: Stone Edge
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

it is jolly.......
 
[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Spore
move2: Superpower
move3: Seed Bomb
move4: Stone Edge
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

it is jolly.......

He said it's for the Spore Puncher and SubSeed sets.

I've used the Spore Puncher set with Jolly and max speed before and I found it more beneficial than Adamant. It also catches defensive Celebi (and other things aiming to outpace Adamant Breloom) off guard. Jolly and max speed should be mentioned at least.
 
He said it's for the Spore Puncher and SubSeed sets.

I've used the Spore Puncher set with Jolly and max speed before and I found it more beneficial than Adamant. It also catches defensive Celebi (and other things aiming to outpace Adamant Breloom) off guard. Jolly and max speed should be mentioned at least.

How do you catch defensive Celebi off guard if you can't do anything to it? Unless you plan on sleeping it and hope it sleeps for 4 turns so you can kill it or hope you crit before it wakes up and uses Recover.
 
How do you catch defensive Celebi off guard if you can't do anything to it? Unless you plan on sleeping it and hope it sleeps for 4 turns so you can kill it or hope you crit before it wakes up and uses Recover.

You can put it to sleep and bring in something safely, instead of getting hit by Thunder Wave on the switch. Celebi isn't the only thing Jolly Breloom can outpace. There's also the standard WishCM Jirachi, defensive Zapdos, Adamant Gyarados, and even those "Bait" Tyranitars. Basically, using Jolly lets Breloom put some of its usual counters to sleep and act appropriately.

I'm not saying Jolly/252 Speed should be the primary option, but it's definitely worth a mention in the additional comments.
 
So would the EV spread with 252 speed @ jolly be:

12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

I recommend keeping 12 HP at all times because of the magic poison heal number, 244 Atk v. 252 won't make that much of a difference I wouldn't think.

Also still waiting to hear about his fantasmical dual status set.

edit: i got the set but i want to make sure there aren't any alternate ev spreads or anything before i put it in the OP

[SET]
name: Dual Status
move1: Spore
move2: Stun Spore
move3: Focus Punch / SuperPower
move4: Seed Bomb / Stone Edge
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Adamant
evs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe

ill add comments and all that jazz when i have it confirmed this is correct.

edit edit: @ RaikouLover, what should be replaced/slashed with Substitute? If I slash it with Stun Spore you may as well just slash Stun Spore with Sub on the main breloom set. I do agree with the lower speed though.
 
[SET]
name: Dual Status
move1: Spore
move2: Stun Spore
move3: Focus Punch / SuperPower
move4: Seed Bomb / Stone Edge
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Adamant
evs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Substitute somewhere? Truthfully I never thought about Superpower / Stone Edge.. seems potent. And you can run ALOT less speed and go for more bulk since your double status.
 
There are still changes that haven't been implemented in the OP. I would like to hear something from the poster, or otherwise I'll take another decision.
 
OP is update with changes. Sorry I didn't update stuff. I don't know how QC works. I promise it won't happen again. :pirate:
 
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