The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Aeres]

@CHENN
i'm not sure you're understanding what i'm trying to say dude. this isn't about anything in my favor, this council thing is about salamence and if he's broken or not. and if you listen to all the reasons people are giving on this they come to one point. salamence is a sweeper with high attack stats( both phisical and special) and has a stat raising move which makes him hard to fight.

The thing is that while Salamence may be a potent sweeper / wallbreaker thanks to his stat distribution / movepool, the stats he happens to possess are not mandatory on a sweeper. Sure, they're invaluable, but just because few Pokémon meet that spread doesn't mean the others aren't viable. Different Pokémon have different niches, and those niches will help to validate their use over another candidate. For example, Snorlax may be slower than most OU Pokémon, but your opponent will be hard-pressed to defeat it if it's a "last on team" Curser, thanks to its bulk and near-immunity to phazing.

Salamence is a sweeper who happens to function in more situations than others, like Infernape, can. An all-purpose sweeper, while nice to have, isn't entirely necessary. Pokémon like Azelf, CroCune, Lucario, Starmie, Gyarados, Togekiss, Infernape, and even UU Pokémon (Sceptile and Rhyperior for example) all have unique traits that they can utilize for different benefits. The fact that you have so many options is part of what makes Pokémon what it is, so even if Salamence is banned, there's no shortage of usable monsters.

 

[TehYoshi]

UMMM HOW THE HELL DOES POKEMON THAT REQUIRE SETUP SLOWS DOWN THE METAGAME?</p>You sound like you just came from ingame. Man swords dance sucks, lets make him learn hyper beam!Also I don't get your whole idea about switching.

This should be pretty obvious, IMO. A pokemon that needs to set up requires more time to succesfully use, and has the potential to be forced out as it is setting up (i.e. CM and DD sweepers) while other Pokemon like MixMence or MixApe just attack right away, damaging something on the switch instead of boosting their stats. More damage faster = faster game.As for the other point, I agree that having a pokemon like Mence who doesn't have a counter makes a more enjoyable metagame, but of course that's all down to preference. The point is, most Pokemon have definitive counters; using another wallbreaker as an example, almost all commonly run Infernape are countered by Tentacruel and Vaporeon, while nothing can boast that it can counter Salamence. This will require skillful switching; i.e. send in a steel to take the DM, then send in something that resists Fire or Ground to avoid the incoming EQ or FB, and so on. I think he's just saying that he prefers a meta where you can't just switch something in without fear and force the opposing wallbreaker out, but instead have to play around it.And as for the 100/100/100 argument, it is really limiting the amount of Pokemon, as has been said before, and in addition, it's been established that Draco Meteor > Overheat, and that Nape suffers from moveslot syndrome in general. And as for Azelf, it's far too easily picked off by Pursuit users (as well as not having a good STAB attack to sweep with) to be efficient as a sweeper. You can't look for a replacement for Mence, because there isn't one.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

@aeres
True aeres I understand that, however if you're fighting starmie, gyarados, or any other restricted sweeper(this means a sweeper that has a one perticular high attack stat, either special or phisical, and it will be easy to counter them. again I'm one of the few trainers who uses a LOT of different pokemon, so I understand what you mean. but yes, just like you mentioned that all purpose sweepers are't nessesary for every team. but they are tricky and require more strategy for beating them than your average sweeper.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@ChouToshio
There are people who prefer stall, others prefer a more speedy metagame. Who's to say one is inherently better, or more enjoyable, than the other?

Try playing a game that lasts for 50+ turns on a DS and you'll figure out one is inherently better. I like games that move towards a conclusion, not ones where everything can be fixed by spinning, recovering, and heal belling as both sides fail to do any real damage to each other by attacking directly.

Stall v. stall can be extraordinarily lame, especially when played in REAL LIFE, and not on a simulator.

Anyway I got no beef with stall built for a meta with powerful pokemon like Salamence, and built to function even while taking losses and not relying on hard countering. In short, aggressive, goal-oriented stall ("Trap this bastard into situation A, get up a whole set of spikes and then starting screwing him bad with aggressive phazing, or whatever). I only dislike "cover my ass, try to counter everything" stall that only can thrive in metas where everything is hard-counterable by 6 pokemon. Removing a pokemon with no counters is a big asset to that kind of lame gameplay.

But seriously, it's pathetic how so many have delved into this "I have to counter it" mentality. At the beginning of 4th gen, a lot of players were thinking about how such a huge array of threats could not be countered with just 6 pokemon, but they were not afraid of a meta that required checks and sacrifices instead of hard countering. They played aggressively and zealously, trying to abuse the new powers of all of 4th gen's new threats.

In short, the game had balls.

It's really quite sad how everyone is cowering under a shell and thinking they need mommy to wipe their asses.

Winning in pokemon should be like winning in everything else-- you win by executing your own strategy, not by wiggling around trying to counter his'.

In 3 months, gen 5 will come out, bringing with it a whole new slew of powerful pokemon on both offensive and defensive styles. Whether they be offensive or defensive threats, they all require more pokemon to "counter" their individual strategies. In 3 months, trying to "counter" everything will become that much more futile (not to mention we'll have to re-test Salamence, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, Latias, and maybe even Latios and Garchomp all over again, because generation 4 tiering has NO relevance).

That's why all the arguments about whether mence has counters or not is just stupid.

 

[-FUCK-]

Try playing a game that lasts for 50+ turns on a DS and you'll figure out one is inherently better. I like games that move towards a conclusion, not ones where everything can be fixed by spinning, recovering, and heal belling as both sides fail to do any real damage to each other by attacking directly.

Stall v. stall can be extraordinarily lame, especially when played in REAL LIFE, and not on a simulator.

Anyway I got no beef with stall built for a meta with powerful pokemon like Salamence, and built to function even while taking losses and not relying on hard countering. In short, aggressive, goal-oriented stall ("Trap this bastard into situation A, get up a whole set of spikes and then starting screwing him bad with aggressive phazing, or whatever). I only dislike "cover my ass, try to counter everything" stall that only can thrive in metas where everything is hard-counterable by 6 pokemon. Removing a pokemon with no counters is a big asses to that kind of lame gameplay.

But seriously, it's pathetic how so many has delved into this "I have to counter it" mentality. At the beginning of 4th gen, a lot of players were thinking about how such a huge array of threats could not be countered with just 6 pokemon, but were not afraid of a meta that required checks and sacrifices instead of hard countering. They played aggressively and zealously, trying to abuse the new powers of all of 4th gen's new threats.

In short, the game had balls.

It's really quite sad how everyone is cowering under a shell and thinking they need mommy to wipe their asses.

Winning in pokemon should be like winning in everything else-- you win by executing your own strategy, not by countering his'.

In 3 months, gen 5 will come out, bringing with it a whole new slew of powerful pokemon on both offensive and defensive styles. Whether they be offensive or defensive threats, they all require more pokemon to "counter" their individual strategies. In 3 months, trying to "counter" everything will become that much more futile (not to mention we'll have to re-test Salamence, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, Latias, and maybe even Latios and Garchomp all over again, because generation 4 tiering has NO relevance).

That's why all the arguments about whether mence has counters or not is just stupid.

+1, this is pretty much the best post so far. The banning of strong offensive pokemon just seems to have been a snowball effect that gained traction and momentum. I'm pretty sure if someone made a thread proposing to ban Salamence a year+ ago it would of been laughed at then swiftly locked by a Mod.

 

[capefeather]

Salamence didn't have Outrage until Platinum, and by then testing of other suspects was underway. I know people say "oh but look at the drawback" but if you think about it much of the power of a lot of the better moves comes from the move just being there.

 

[-FUCK-]

Salamence didn't have Outrage until Platinum, and by then testing of other suspects was underway.

I know that, I'm just talking about the point that peope back then would of shot down the idea of testing Salamence the same way people shoot down the proposal of testing Blissy, even though, you know, the bitch walls almost every single special sweeper not named Infernape. Why are offensive pokemon so much more focused and pron toward being labed "broken" over defensive Pokemon?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

^ Taunt/NastyPlot Mismagius puts a huge cramp in Blissey's style, but yeah.

tons of stuff I agree with

You told me in another thread that you didn't play or care much for doubles. I think you'd really enjoy it! A meta free from the rule of entry hazards and the counter-switching mentality is pretty sweet!

Shoddy 2 can't come soon enough, and I really hope Smogon puts the brakes on the ban-hammer when a proper doubles meta develops here.

 

[TheValkyries]

Boohoo, I don't like stall. Insult people for being pansies. Oh yeah, I have to relate this non-sequiturial rant about stall back to Mence. I'll vaguely mention countering Mence near the end.

That's pretty much all I'm getting from your post.

It's really funny how you continually attack those who are pro-Uber for not being able to simply deal with Mence, while at the same time you complain about how Stall is annoying. How about taking some of your own advice, and try manning up. Mence isn't the only threat to Stall. If you seriously don't like it that much, try Stallbreaker Gliscor. SD Lucario can still grab Stall by the head and smear its face across a wall. And Infernape has a multitude of lulzy sets that calls Stall its bitch. Stall is seriously not that big of a deal.

 

[ToF]

Try playing a game that lasts for 50+ turns on a DS and you'll figure out one is inherently better. I like games that move towards a conclusion, not ones where everything can be fixed by spinning, recovering, and heal belling as both sides fail to do any real damage to each other by attacking directly.

Stall v. stall can be extraordinarily lame, especially when played in REAL LIFE, and not on a simulator.

Anyway I got no beef with stall built for a meta with powerful pokemon like Salamence, and built to function even while taking losses and not relying on hard countering. In short, aggressive, goal-oriented stall ("Trap this bastard into situation A, get up a whole set of spikes and then starting screwing him bad with aggressive phazing, or whatever). I only dislike "cover my ass, try to counter everything" stall that only can thrive in metas where everything is hard-counterable by 6 pokemon. Removing a pokemon with no counters is a big asses to that kind of lame gameplay.

But seriously, it's pathetic how so many has delved into this "I have to counter it" mentality. At the beginning of 4th gen, a lot of players were thinking about how such a huge array of threats could not be countered with just 6 pokemon, but were not afraid of a meta that required checks and sacrifices instead of hard countering. They played aggressively and zealously, trying to abuse the new powers of all of 4th gen's new threats.

In short, the game had balls.

It's really quite sad how everyone is cowering under a shell and thinking they need mommy to wipe their asses.

Winning in pokemon should be like winning in everything else-- you win by executing your own strategy, not by countering his'.

In 3 months, gen 5 will come out, bringing with it a whole new slew of powerful pokemon on both offensive and defensive styles. Whether they be offensive or defensive threats, they all require more pokemon to "counter" their individual strategies. In 3 months, trying to "counter" everything will become that much more futile (not to mention we'll have to re-test Salamence, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, Latias, and maybe even Latios and Garchomp all over again, because generation 4 tiering has NO relevance).

That's why all the arguments about whether mence has counters or not is just stupid.

Normally I don't deal with threads like this because of the massive shitshow of posts that ensue, but I literally have no choice other than to respond to this preposterous post. I think the above poster summarized it well in saying that its ironic you're complaining about stall teams and then whining your ass off about how you probably can't break it.

You dislike 'cover my ass stall'? What fucking metagame are you playing if you're facing stall teams that don't aim to cover everything? It's the point of a stall team, to cover as much as possible without being gapingly weak to certain Pokemon. Salamence isn't the only Pokemon that goes into this stall-building sequence: Pokemon like Infernape and Lucario are also taken into account. Obviously its impossible to cover everything, but there is nothing wrong playing 'cover my ass stall' as long as you cover the relevant Pokemon in the metagame aka the top 30 OU's.

I think you seem to forget that Salamence got Outrage via Platinum, and I really don't give a shit if you wanna give an argument about being able to easily revenge-kill after being locked into the move. The point is Salamence now is not like Salamence was in DP, and is definitely a bigger offensive threat that is capable of dismantling teams. The same point can me made for Garchomp regarding Outrage revenge-killing, try arguing that Garchomp was OU material in the past (if you try you're making more of a fool of yourself).

The biggest problem I have with your post and your mentality is that you win by executing your strategy and not by countering others. Are you really serious? Do you just fucking give up when you can't execute your own strategy in Pokemon? You take what the opponent gives you; you don't simply go in and sac everything in order to get your entry hazards out and then hope to stall, for example. Countering is a huge part of the game, something you fail to understand, probably because I remember you being the guy that just played heavy offense 24/7 using 6 wall-breakers. Yeah, real great strategy you have. You complain about other people manning up, and you use the simplest team-type without any strategy involved whatsoever - literally attack, die, send in new Pokemon, attack, repeat until you either win or lose.

Last thing, I really don't care if this thread is complaining about the fact that Mence has no counters. The megathread isn't a valid representation of the top players opinions anyway because the majority of them aren't even posting here. It's just a minor point hidden within the bigger picture. The fact that Salamence can Outrage / Draco Meteor at will and hit anything for at least 40% damage is part of it. If anything, you need to look at Salamence in terms of the support characteristic, because it's probably the closest thing to fulfilling that in the current metagame.

 

[Efemera]

Even without Salamence, Stall is quite beatable. There do not exist 6 Pokemon that can hard counter every thing in the game. I like a metagame in which stall is actually a viable strategy and doesn't risk falling apart instantly as one Pokemon switches in.

Of course, I'm exaggerating here, before someone makes a long post about how Salamence doesn't really do that.

 

[Zelrio]

If this argument continues I honestly won't be surprised to see this:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5175/uberpie.png
(BIG image, click it plz)

Also Floatzel isn't an alternative water infernape. I perfer DD Gatr ro Floaztel. Sharpedo also does well but has crap defenses. Gyarados outclasses all of them anyway.

I agree with this man. As another poster here said
"If it doesn't appear on the cover of the games, don't put it in ubers."

 

[vonFiedler]

@ChouToshio
There are people who prefer stall, others prefer a more speedy metagame. Who's to say one is inherently better, or more enjoyable, than the other?

In a game where multiple styles of play are possible, the metagame is healthiest when all styles are viable. Neither a stall nor speed dominant metagame are good things no matter what one person likes.

Though to give a little perspective, stall is generally hated in any card game when players can't finish tournament matches. Thus they may not lose, but won't rank in the tournament anyway. Pokemon by comparison, generally does not take an hour or more to finish a stall match-up.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Don't you guys think if stall was really such an issue, it would be king? As it stands, bulky offensive or semi-stall are much more powerful overall (or modern teams that call themselves stall, are actually far more offensive than Obi's team way back when). I don't think Stall should not be in the game, but that it should have to deal with heavy threats to it. As should cover-my-ass bulky offense.

Just as, for instance, Vaporeon was a 100% insurmountable wall to that wall-breaker team (hence I stopped playing it). That has nothing to do with the fact that I think Vappy is very healthy for the metagame as well (though I hate the bitch).

@Twist-- You certainly have me pegged in terms of my battle history. You're a bit off in terms of my actual attitude towards the game though-- I don't actually hate stall for existing, and it's certainly not one of the harder teams to beat, for me or others. However, for a number of reasons that have been repeatedly recycled throughout the thread, Salamence is a part of my ideal meta, so I'm putting my opinions on that simply put (not that I really care all THAT much if it gets banned).

Simply put, you cannot counter everything, and doing so is about to get a lot harder. You have no idea what the opponent will bring, and therefore, you make your own plan of how you plan on winning from start to finish, and execute . . .

. . . while building in lots of fail-safes for when the main strategy gets fuck'd up. The point is that your strategy should ENCOMPASS, be PREPARED FOR situations where things get fucked up. That's what I mean by stall (or offensive) that fights while also being prepared to take losses.

I am far from the first player to suggest that this is how higher level players plan for battles, and there are those far better than me who will tell you the same thing. If you really want to know, I now play semi-stall (and mop up with flygon) mostly.

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio
Boohoo, I don't like stall. Insult people for being pansies. Oh yeah, I have to relate this non-sequiturial rant about stall back to Mence. I'll vaguely mention countering Mence near the end.

Wow, this actually had me laughing pretty hard. Not in the I'm mocking you way, in the what you're saying is genuinely funny way. Well, I don't recall saying anything about countering mence-- but it was still funny. Thanks.

 

[Curtains]

Try playing a game that lasts for 50+ turns on a DS and you'll figure out one is inherently better. I like games that move towards a conclusion, not ones where everything can be fixed by spinning, recovering, and heal belling as both sides fail to do any real damage to each other by attacking directly.

Stall v. stall can be extraordinarily lame, especially when played in REAL LIFE, and not on a simulator.

Anyway I got no beef with stall built for a meta with powerful pokemon like Salamence, and built to function even while taking losses and not relying on hard countering. In short, aggressive, goal-oriented stall ("Trap this bastard into situation A, get up a whole set of spikes and then starting screwing him bad with aggressive phazing, or whatever). I only dislike "cover my ass, try to counter everything" stall that only can thrive in metas where everything is hard-counterable by 6 pokemon. Removing a pokemon with no counters is a big asses to that kind of lame gameplay.

But seriously, it's pathetic how so many has delved into this "I have to counter it" mentality. At the beginning of 4th gen, a lot of players were thinking about how such a huge array of threats could not be countered with just 6 pokemon, but were not afraid of a meta that required checks and sacrifices instead of hard countering. They played aggressively and zealously, trying to abuse the new powers of all of 4th gen's new threats.

In short, the game had balls.

It's really quite sad how everyone is cowering under a shell and thinking they need mommy to wipe their asses.

Winning in pokemon should be like winning in everything else-- you win by executing your own strategy, not by countering his'.

In 3 months, gen 5 will come out, bringing with it a whole new slew of powerful pokemon on both offensive and defensive styles. Whether they be offensive or defensive threats, they all require more pokemon to "counter" their individual strategies. In 3 months, trying to "counter" everything will become that much more futile (not to mention we'll have to re-test Salamence, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, Latias, and maybe even Latios and Garchomp all over again, because generation 4 tiering has NO relevance).

That's why all the arguments about whether mence has counters or not is just stupid.

i have to agree that this is the best post in the thread also. While ive supported mence to uber this post just shows me how pointless the whole mence to uber drama is. Hes right. who in the motherfucking hell wants to play dozens of stall teams to get close to getting on the leaderboard or anywhere in a tournament. Then to top it off make it harder to beat by eliminating stall teams "hard counter". I didnt come and play this game to be bored to death i came to enjoy some hard core shit like i saw on wifi battles on youtube when i first learned about competative. It just seems that everyone is just pissing there pants about having to predict instead of grabbing there balls like the quote above and just playing around that motherfucker. if stall pokemon wasnt an option have u hoes would quit becasue you can't live without spamming wish + protect bliss and vaporeon to piss me the fuck off.

 

[shrang]

@cape
Way to go on quoting a Wikipedia article mate. Anyway I think the point should be made on whether the ban is necessary, and that's what the Council should decide. If it isn't necessary (But isn't worse) to ban Salamence, I personally don't think it should be banned. I do believe we are getting a bit liberal with our bans though (See Latias, who got voted Uber twice, while having 5 clear OU votes and still getting banned).

Anyway, on a side note, if Salamence gets voted Uber without a supermajority (ie 5-4), does that mean he'll be banned, or does it mean we'll have another round of Salamence like Latias did??

EDIT:

Pokemon by comparison, generally does not take an hour or more to finish a stall match-up.

Yea, in general, they don't, but sometimes you can easily find a battle that goes on forever. I once played a Stall team for the lulz and it was half an hour before the opponent was finally broke through the Stall, and this was on Shoddy. Imagine that game being played on WiFi. Ack!!

 

[SJCrew]

@ Shrang: The decision to ban Latias was not made on a whim and even the fact that it was voted OU so many times was taken into account before it was banned. That's why even after what was supposed to be the decisive vote, we had to hold another one with a different voting pool just to make sure we were getting it right. Latias understandably wasn't considered broken until the Specs set became standard then Scarftar Scarftar Scarftar.

 

[xabu1]

I agree with this man. As another poster here said
"If it doesn't appear on the cover of the games, don't put it in ubers."

so you think that pokemon like deoxys belong in the OU metagame? when salamence is being questionned for being overpowered, then do you think that anything can wall a deoxys-A other than a deoxys-D? but thing is, it comes down to things like that, they take out your deoxys-D, which can't wall deoxys-A anyways, you are screwed, another poke, mewtwo, how do you plan to deal with that? more bulk than mence(ignore intimidate, not really reliable) and more attacking power. it can attack both phys and spc. Another poke, you want ARCEUS in OU? that is just insane

 

[Zelrio]

so you think that pokemon like deoxys belong in the OU metagame? when salamence is being questionned for being overpowered, then do you think that anything can wall a deoxys-A other than a deoxys-D? but thing is, it comes down to things like that, they take out your deoxys-D, which can't wall deoxys-A anyways, you are screwed, another poke, mewtwo, how do you plan to deal with that? more bulk than mence(ignore intimidate, not really reliable) and more attacking power. it can attack both phys and spc. Another poke, you want ARCEUS in OU? that is just insane

Not my quote, hobo, but the man's point was that only legendaries should be uber as they were specifically intended to be overly powerful in comparison to normal pokemon. You can make as many extreme examples as you like, but that doesn't change what the quote was meant to imply.

 

[Tleilax]

I agree with this man. As another poster here said
"If it doesn't appear on the cover of the games, don't put it in ubers."

BLASTOISE AND PIKACHU FOR UBER

 

[Zelrio]

BLASTOISE AND PIKACHU FOR UBER

Perhaps you should reread the quote. "Only x can be y" does not mean "all x are y." I feel bad for you you if you interpreted it that way, though. And like I said in my response, it was about legendaries in general, rather than version mascots.

 

[capefeather]

But sometimes Game Freak screws up both ways. Articuno and Regigigas are NU, while Garchomp and Wobbuffet are Uber. Developer intention is hardly the best measurement of the metagame ever.

 

[vonFiedler]

Yea, in general, they don't, but sometimes you can easily find a battle that goes on forever. I once played a Stall team for the lulz and it was half an hour before the opponent was finally broke through the Stall, and this was on Shoddy.

Then consider that a card game should be played best 2 out of 3. No matter how you look at it, Stall is far more tolerable in a game like Pokemon.

 

[Phantom_IV]

In short, the game had balls.

Quoth for truth. Quite frankly everyone's looking for hard checks like a game of rock-paper-scissors. Let's face it: they don't exist in Pokemon. We require a little more thought from you than "Oh it's a Salamence, I'll switch in X because Mence can't touch it."


Plus Chou's got a point that these games are often PLAYED ON CARTIDGES. Imagine how tired you get of stall wars on Shoddy. Then imagine each move taking 30 seconds minimum on a cartridge. Matches could easily go on for 1/2 an hour.

You wouldn't support Salamence's ban if you'd ever played a stall v stall on cartridge.

 

[Baldafor]

You wouldn't support Salamence's ban if you'd ever played a stall v stall on cartridge.

So there are those of you that do not want to ban Salamence because the games take too long on the cartridge?

Shouldn't this be addressed at Nintendo, or Game Freak?

The fact that matches take so long has NOTHING to do whether Salamence is too strong in the metagame or not. It's the way they programmed the games, not the lack of offensive threats to break walls.

I'm sorry that Salamence might get banned because he is an excellent wallbreaker and supports teams very well.

I'm sorry that no other wallbreaker exists that can beat 6 stall pokemon (especially not Starmie, Azelf, Lucario, Heracross, Infernape, Machamp, Tyranitar, Medicham or Breloom).

I'm sorry that Nintendo made the games take too long in 6v6 singles when they are actively balancing 4v4 doubles instead (which take about 1/4th the time).

I'm sorry the cartridges and Wi-Fi are too slow for you to enjoy the game.

I am not sorry that we are testing Salamence.