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Breloom only has no "counter" because of Spore putting them to sleep. Honchcrow is a great check to Breloom thanks to Insomnia, or even a counter if you can predict the Spore. Banette can also counter him.
It's not a check. Honckrow cannot switch into anything Breloom can throw at it due to it's frailty. A smart breloom will save their spore for when the really need it, and often time's they'll sub/Stone Edge, completely screwing you over.
Not to mention that Breloom outspeeds you...
Same goes for Banette, who is OHKO by Seedbomb AND outsped. The best it can hope for is hurting Breloom with Shadow Sneak but alas...
Honestly, Zelrio's Breloom comparison to Salamence is a joke. Excluding the fact that it DOES have counters (Celebi and bulky flying types) and dodging the spore is a simple matter of sporing something useless/switching in a restalker. It's hardly that much of a hassle to deal with. (It is a good pokemon though)
For one unlike Mence, Breloom never been even considered as suspect by somebody relevant.
-It doesn't have blistering speed, nor does it have a diverse usable movepool.
-Mence also has a usable special attack, thus making it's set of counters for each set entirely different.
I agree, why isn't Cresselia being used more right now?
Sure, it hits like the barking chihuahua in the old woman's house that can't do anything more than bite with the force of a squishy tomato. However, some things crumple even at that. Infernape, epically epically common here, has a hard time getting past Cressy without spamming choice band u-turns - swords dance flare blitz nor nasty plot fire blast KOs Cresselia without Blaze. Dragonite is stopped cold. She even bravely takes the assaults of Heatran, who you can't really touch but you can spread Thunder Wave around (don't rashly switch in Cresselia as Substitute Heatran is popular here). Breloom's spread of viral fungi is stopped cold, as either Ice Beam or Psychic (Cresselia's main attacks) do huge damage, although the Leech Seeder can give problems.
Tyranitar counters you, of course; Moonlight's strength diminishes, and you take huge damage from it. However, in the Suspect metagame, not only is it uncommon, most forms are Scarf Tyranitar for those weak to Ghosts (specifically Gengar) or Dragon Dance Tar - not the TyraniBoah or the Choice Band Tar that originally disowned Cresselia from fame. Neither can outright KO you and Thunder Wave will halt it. Kingdra, who is becoming more common with Dual Screen Azelf Leads, are huge pains. Starmie isn't really stopped from either Rapid Spinning or Life Orb Wallbreaking / Sweeping by Ice Beam, Psychic, or Thunder Wave, equally shrug-offable moves. Skarmory is only uncommon at worst and freely sets up on you, especially with Taunt. Luckily, what Cresselia counters are much more common than what counters her. Scarfed Scizor handily deals with Tyranitar and all forms of Starmie, whereas Kingdra and Skarmory are stopped cold by Taunt Gyarados - the former cannot deal much damage without it's Dragon Dances after an Intimidate, and Skarmory is just screwed up in general.
Umm what?
NP Ape 252 SpA LO neutral +2 vs 252 HP / 0 Def Bold Cresselia
614 Atk vs 296 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 348 - 411 (78.38% - 92.57%)
Thats a 33% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock, and if he Fire Blasts on the switch, there is a minor 18.87% to 2HKO wit rocks, add that with possible Sandstorm.
Last I checked Skarmory doesn't stay in on Gyarados, its evident they have Taunt if they switch in, and Skarmory is not exactly threatened out, but rather cannot do anything. And lots of pokes can outrun the bulkyDDdos after a Dragon Dance. Not to mention its easily walled by Vaporeon. Then you also have Breloom and other stuff which can resist both Rock/Water.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
SJCrew sent out Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Pokefreak77 sent out Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Swampert lost 22% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Swampert used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Death Toll lost 9% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Death Toll used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Rotom-h (lvl 100 Rotom-h).
Pointed stones dug into Rotom-h.
Rotom-h lost 12% of its health.
Death Toll used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
Rotom-h's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-h restored 6% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Pointed stones dug into El Blaze.
El Blaze lost 12% of its health.
Rotom-h used Will-o-wisp.
Rotom-h's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-h restored 6% of its health.
---
El Blaze used Overheat.
Rotom-h lost 75% of its health.
El Blaze's special attack was harshly lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
Rotom-h used Thunderbolt.
El Blaze lost 27% of its health.
Rotom-h's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-h restored 6% of its health.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
El Blaze used Overheat.
It's not very effective...
Swampert lost 17% of its health.
El Blaze's special attack was harshly lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Pointed stones dug into Angel of Death.
Angel of Death lost 12% of its health.
Pokefreak77 switched in Roserade (lvl 100 Roserade ?).
Pointed stones dug into Roserade.
Roserade lost 12% of its health.
Roserade's leftovers restored its health a little!
Roserade restored 6% of its health.
---
Angel of Death used Ice Punch.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Roserade lost 94% of its health.
Pokefreak77's Roserade fainted.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Heatran's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Dracolord.
Dracolord lost 25% of its health.
Heatran used Fire Blast.
It's not very effective...
Dracolord lost 25% of its health.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Dracolord used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 33% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Dracolord's light screen wore off!
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Swampert lost 41% of its health.
Pokefreak77's Swampert fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Heatran used Dragon Pulse.
It's super effective!
Dracolord lost 30% of its health.
SJCrew's Dracolord fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Kill Order (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Pointed stones dug into Kill Order.
Kill Order lost 6% of its health.
Heatran used Dragon Pulse.
It's not very effective...
Kill Order lost 22% of its health.
Kill Order used Thunderbolt.
Heatran lost 75% of its health.
Pokefreak77's Heatran fainted.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut Kill Order's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Salamence.
Salamence lost 25% of its health.
Salamence used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Kill Order lost 72% of its health.
SJCrew's Kill Order fainted.
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Mistwalker.
Mistwalker lost 12% of its health.
Pokefreak77 switched in Rotom-h (lvl 100 Rotom-h).
Pointed stones dug into Rotom-h.
Rotom-h lost 12% of its health.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
Rotom-h lost 19% of its health.
Pokefreak77's Rotom-h fainted.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Pokefreak77 switched in Feraligatr (lvl 100 Feraligatr ?).
Pointed stones dug into Feraligatr.
Feraligatr lost 12% of its health.
Feraligatr used Swords Dance.
Feraligatr's attack was sharply raised.
Mistwalker used Roar.
Pokefreak77 switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut Mistwalker's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Salamence.
Salamence lost 25% of its health.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Salamence used Draco Meteor.
Mistwalker lost 66% of its health.
Salamence's special attack was harshly lowered.
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 30% of its health.
Pokefreak77's Salamence fainted.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Pokefreak77 has left the room.
SJCrew wins!
In this instance, Swampert attempts to check Salamence, but dies to a combination of Earthquake and Outrage. Prior damage from Uturn was dealt, but according to the damage calculator, an unboosted Outrage from a +Att DDmence depletes well over half of Swampert's HP, garnering a 2HKO. Unfortunately, Outrage lasted a third turn, leaving Salamence vulnerable to a revenge kill from Heatran. But more importantly, one of Salamence's most prominent DD checks dies.
Also, I think it's worth pointing out that Scarftran's use of Dragon Pulse left it completely helpless to the incoming Magnezone.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
SJCrew sent out Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
-Hugo- sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Angel of Death used Explosion.
Uxie lost 100% of its health.
-Hugo-'s Uxie fainted.
SJCrew's Angel of Death fainted.
---
SJCrew: plz go
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
-Hugo- switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Swampert's attack!
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
-Hugo- switched in Jolteon (lvl 100 Jolteon ?).
Death Toll used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
---
Jolteon used Shadow Ball.
Death Toll lost 13% of its health.
Death Toll used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Jolteon used Shadow Ball.
Death Toll lost 12% of its health.
Death Toll used Explosion.
Jolteon lost 100% of its health.
-Hugo-'s Jolteon fainted.
SJCrew's Death Toll fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
-Hugo- switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Gyarados's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Dracolord.
Dracolord lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Dracolord's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Gyarados.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Gyarados lost 75% of its health.
-Hugo-'s Gyarados fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
---
-Hugo- switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
Swampert lost 48% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Swampert used Roar.
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Pointed stones dug into El Blaze.
El Blaze lost 12% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Swampert's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Dracolord.
Dracolord lost 25% of its health.
-Hugo- switched in Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ?).
Pointed stones dug into Dragonite.
Dragonite lost 25% of its health.
---
-Hugo- switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Swampert lost 46% of its health.
-Hugo-'s Swampert fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
---
-Hugo- switched in Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ?).
Pointed stones dug into Dragonite.
Dragonite lost 25% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
It's super effective!
Dragonite lost 50% of its health.
-Hugo-'s Dragonite fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Dracolord's light screen wore off!
Dracolord's rampage ended.
Dracolord became confused!
---
-Hugo- switched in Kingdra (lvl 100 Kingdra ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kingdra.
Kingdra lost 12% of its health.
Dracolord is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Dracolord lost 11% of its health.
SJCrew's Dracolord fainted.
Kingdra used Dragon Dance.
Kingdra's attack was raised.
Kingdra's speed was raised.
---
SJCrew switched in Kill Order (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Pointed stones dug into Kill Order.
Kill Order lost 6% of its health.
Kingdra used Waterfall.
Kill Order lost 84% of its health.
Kill Order flinched!
---
Kingdra used Waterfall.
Kill Order lost 10% of its health.
SJCrew's Kill Order fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Mistwalker.
Mistwalker lost 12% of its health.
Kingdra used Dragon Dance.
Kingdra's attack was raised.
Kingdra's speed was raised.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
Kingdra lost 25% of its health.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Kingdra used Dragon Dance.
Kingdra's attack was raised.
Kingdra's speed was raised.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
Kingdra lost 25% of its health.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Kingdra used Outrage.
Kingdra went on a rampage!
Mistwalker lost 72% of its health.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
Kingdra lost 29% of its health.
Kingdra was frozen solid!
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Kingdra is frozen solid!
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
Kingdra lost 8% of its health.
-Hugo-'s Kingdra fainted.
SJCrew wins!
-Hugo- has left the room.
Salamence comes in and immediately kills Gyarados with Outrage even at -1. Light Screen is up, so the incoming Swampert is forced to Roar instead of Ice Beam. But Salamence comes back in for round two and uses Outrage once more, which finishes off Swampert as well as Dragonite.
At this point, you're probably thinking, "Where's his Steel? What's with all the DDers? This guy sucks." While I'm not sure this match is representative of the the competence of my opponent or his strategy, judging from the Uxie lead, it appears his strategy consisted of Dual Screens with Uturn, to break the sash on Taunt abusers and handle them with the appropriate check.
With Screens up, my opponent could have initiated a chain of bulky DD sweepers, who would continue to weaken each other's counters one after the other, until the opponent's defensive core is damaged enough for a successful sweep.
Of course, this strategy would have been successful were it not for my Azelf lead's Explosion and the immediate pressure applied by my Salamence. I won't deny that Light Screen also played a pivotal role in this, which prevented Swampert from killing it and allowed Salamence to steal two more kills, possibly another if the confusion from Outrage hadn't kicked in; however, the kill on Gyarados and damage to Swampert were all Salamence, which paved the way for my Infernape to take on the rest of his team.
For good measure, let's take a look at all of the other Pokemon that would have been capable of successfully KOing or 2HKOing Gyarados at -1 in this very situation without using Explosion:
Aerodactyl: countered/prevented by Swamert
Azelf (w/Tbolt): countered/prevented by Jolteon
Dusknoir (w/Tpunch): Jolteon (though most players would not expect a Thunder Punch, to be fair)
Electivire: Jolteon
Gengar (w/Tbolt): Jolteon
Heracross (CB Stone Edge): Swampert
Jirachi: Swampert
Jolteon: Swampert/Jolteon
Metagross (Agility Thunder Punch): Swampert
Rotom-A: Jolteon
Starmie: Jolteon
Suicune (HP Electric): Jolteon
Tyranitar: Swampert
Vaporeon: Jolteon
Zapdos: Jolteon/Swampert
Also, I looked up the calcs for -1 Salamence's Outrage and realized I took a huge risk there opting to Outrage right away, but I wanted Gyara gone ASAP and knew that Salamence's +Att nature would at least give it a chance to KO. More importantly, every single OU on that list feasibly capable of KOing Gyarados would have been annulled by my opponent's switch-in, save for Salamence, who could have KOed it with an Outrage or Draco Meteor.
(PS: The bit of hax at the end had no bearing on the outcome, as I had a priority user lying in wait to KO it)
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
SJCrew sent out Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
cukowNz sent out Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Swampert lost 24% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
cukowNz switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Death Toll used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Zapdos used Heat Wave.
It's super effective!
Death Toll lost 62% of its health.
Death Toll used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
---
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
Death Toll lost 23% of its health.
Death Toll used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
---
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
Death Toll lost 16% of its health.
SJCrew's Death Toll fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Zapdos's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Dracolord.
Dracolord lost 25% of its health.
cukowNz switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Dracolord used Dragon Dance.
Dracolord's attack was raised.
Dracolord's speed was raised.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Swampert lost 82% of its health.
cukowNz's Swampert fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
---
cukowNz switched in Skarmory (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Pointed stones dug into Skarmory.
Skarmory lost 12% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
It's not very effective...
Skarmory lost 41% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Skarmory used Roost.
Skarmory restored 50% of its health.
Skarmory's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skarmory restored 3% of its health.
---
Dracolord used Outrage.
It's not very effective...
Skarmory lost 41% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Skarmory used Brave Bird.
Dracolord lost 21% of its health.
Skarmory was hit by recoil!
Skarmory lost 7% of its health.
Dracolord's rampage ended.
Dracolord became confused!
Skarmory's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skarmory restored 6% of its health.
---
Dracolord is confused!
Dracolord used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Skarmory lost 58% of its health.
cukowNz's Skarmory fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Dracolord's light screen wore off!
---
cukowNz switched in Heracross (lvl 100 Heracross ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heracross.
Heracross lost 12% of its health.
Dracolord snapped out of confusion!
Dracolord used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Heracross lost 88% of its health.
cukowNz's Heracross fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Dracolord's reflect wore off!
---
cukowNz switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Blissey lost 88% of its health.
cukowNz's Blissey fainted.
Dracolord lost 5% of its health.
SJCrew's Dracolord fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
cukowNz switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Pointed stones dug into Angel of Death.
Angel of Death lost 12% of its health.
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Zapdos.
Zapdos lost 25% of its health.
Angel of Death used Ice Punch.
It's super effective!
Zapdos lost 75% of its health.
cukowNz's Zapdos fainted.
---
cukowNz switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gengar.
Gengar lost 12% of its health.
Angel of Death used Ice Punch.
Gengar lost 80% of its health.
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
It's super effective!
Angel of Death lost 88% of its health.
SJCrew's Angel of Death fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Mistwalker.
Mistwalker lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Mistwalker lost 88% of its health.
SJCrew's Mistwalker fainted.
---
SJCrew: yeah
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Pointed stones dug into El Blaze.
El Blaze lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
El Blaze lost 69% of its health.
El Blaze used Overheat.
Gengar lost 8% of its health.
cukowNz's Gengar fainted.
SJCrew wins!
cukowNz has left the room.
Salamence pretty much owns everything here, not much to explain. The KO on Swampert was practically guaranteed at the amount of HP it had, as I was running an attack-boosting nature. At +1 that brings us to: 81.2% - 95.8%. The blue swamp monster had to pull a miracle in order to survive, which are pretty nice odds for me to bank on.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Esterk sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
SJCrew sent out Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Metagross lost 28% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Kill Order (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
It's not very effective...
Kill Order lost 16% of its health.
---
Kill Order used Thunderbolt.
Metagross lost 72% of its health.
Esterk's Metagross fainted.
---
Esterk switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Death Toll used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Breloom was badly poisoned!
---
Breloom used Spore.
Death Toll fell asleep!
Death Toll is fast asleep!
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Pointed stones dug into Angel of Death.
Angel of Death lost 12% of its health.
Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Angel of Death used U-turn.
The substitute took damage for Breloom!
Breloom's substitute faded!
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Breloom's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Dracolord.
Dracolord lost 25% of its health.
Breloom used Focus Punch.
It's not very effective...
Dracolord lost 34% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
onlinehawtprincess has entered the room.
Esterk switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Swampert lost 62% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Dracolord used Outrage.
Swampert lost 38% of its health.
Esterk's Swampert fainted.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Heatran used Fire Blast.
It's not very effective...
Dracolord lost 21% of its health.
SJCrew's Dracolord fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Mistwalker.
Mistwalker lost 12% of its health.
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Breloom.
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Breloom lost 73% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Mistwalker used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 5% of its health.
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Pointed stones dug into Death Toll.
Death Toll lost 6% of its health.
Heatran used Explosion.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Death Toll lost 66% of its health.
Esterk's Heatran fainted.
---
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Breloom.
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Pointed stones dug into Angel of Death.
Angel of Death lost 12% of its health.
Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Angel of Death used U-turn.
The substitute took damage for Breloom!
Breloom's substitute faded!
Angel of Death is already out.
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Pointed stones dug into Death Toll.
Death Toll lost 6% of its health.
Breloom used Focus Punch.
Death Toll lost 22% of its health.
SJCrew's Death Toll fainted.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Pointed stones dug into Angel of Death.
Angel of Death lost 12% of its health.
Esterk switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut Angel of Death's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Salamence.
Salamence lost 25% of its health.
Angel of Death used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 15% of its health.
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Pointed stones dug into El Blaze.
El Blaze lost 12% of its health.
---
El Blaze used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 61% of its health.
Esterk's Salamence fainted.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Suicune.
Suicune lost 12% of its health.
El Blaze used Close Combat.
Suicune lost 65% of its health.
El Blaze's defence was lowered.
El Blaze's special defence was lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
Suicune used Calm Mind.
Suicune's special attack was raised.
Suicune's special defence was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Esterk has left the room.
SJCrew wins!
onlinehawtprincess has left the room.
Another match where Salamence rips Swampert a new one, nothing new, leaving one less check for Infernape. The misprediction on my opponent's part at the end was a non-factor; I had him in a checkmate position where Azelf could finish off the weakened Suicune and Breloom even if he opted to attack instead.
You might notice that in these examples, I used Salamence in a completely different manner than usual: attack first and DD later. The reason for this is that Salamence's most common DD checks only beat him with the assumption that he uses DD right away; if I test the waters first (pun intended, actually, since as you can see, Swampert was around the corner nearly every time I attempted this), I can open up a sweep for Salamence without having to rely on my opponent's team being weakened through residual damage or the rest of my teammates. Though my tactics are a bit reckless, they've worked more often than not, and through a series of roughly 20 or so battles, my CRE jumped about 30 points.
I think this goes to show that DDmence doesn't even need a Dragon Dance under its belt in order to maintain its status as the most potent offensive threat in OU. You still have to be careful about absolutely everything you switch in, even if you're aware of the set you're facing, and if you're facing a competent player the odds are almost never in your favor.
And this is a log where I beat you regardless of Salamence. Salamence did not do shit on either side during this game. AND in the log you posted, I made some pretty dumb mistakes I would admit.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Esterk sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
SJCrew sent out Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Metagross lost 26% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Kill Order (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
It's not very effective...
Kill Order lost 17% of its health.
---
Kill Order used Thunderbolt.
Metagross lost 73% of its health.
Metagross used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Kill Order lost 83% of its health.
SJCrew's Kill Order fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Metagross used Bullet Punch.
Angel of Death lost 38% of its health.
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Metagross lost 1% of its health.
Esterk's Metagross fainted.
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
---
Esterk switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut Dracolord's attack!
Esterk switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
---
Heatran used Explosion.
Mistwalker lost 60% of its health.
Esterk's Heatran fainted.
Mistwalker used Surf.
But there was no target!
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Breloom used Spore.
Death Toll fell asleep!
Breloom was badly poisoned!
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Angel of Death used U-turn.
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Breloom!
Breloom's substitute faded!
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Breloom's attack!
Breloom used Focus Punch.
It's not very effective...
Dracolord lost 34% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Dracolord used Dragon Dance.
Dracolord's attack was raised.
Dracolord's speed was raised.
---
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Swampert lost 96% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Swampert used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Dracolord lost 56% of its health.
SJCrew's Dracolord fainted.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
A critical hit!
Swampert lost 10% of its health.
Esterk's Swampert fainted.
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Breloom used Seed Bomb.
It's super effective!
Mistwalker lost 52% of its health.
SJCrew's Mistwalker fainted.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
---
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Esterk switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut El Blaze's attack!
El Blaze used Overheat.
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 49% of its health.
El Blaze's special attack was harshly lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
El Blaze used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 51% of its health.
Esterk's Salamence fainted.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Suicune used Surf.
Angel of Death lost 62% of its health.
SJCrew's Angel of Death fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
---
El Blaze used Overheat.
It's super effective!
Breloom lost 100% of its health.
Esterk's Breloom fainted.
El Blaze's special attack was harshly lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 32% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 33% of its health.
Death Toll is fast asleep!
---
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 32% of its health.
Death Toll is fast asleep!
---
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 2% of its health.
SJCrew's Death Toll fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
El Blaze used Close Combat.
Suicune lost 60% of its health.
El Blaze's defence was lowered.
El Blaze's special defence was lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
Suicune used Surf.
It's super effective!
El Blaze lost 60% of its health.
SJCrew's El Blaze fainted.
Esterk wins!
SJCrew has left the room.
Esterk: gg
If Salamence attacks first instead of using DD, he may have just eliminated any chance of a sweep. If you use Outrage first and your opponent sends in Jirachi, you're boned (actually, Outraging first is a bad move anyways). If you use Earthquake, there are other checks that can still easily handle you, like Scizor, Gyarados, Cresselia, etc.
IMO people need to get away from the idea that Swampert is a reliable check on Salamence, because he isn't. Swampert's just a popular Pokemon because he can reliably check threats like Heatran and Tyranitar while setting up Stealth Rock. If he's your primary Salamence check, you need to use him in conjunction with Scizor or someone.
What bugs me about Salamence is that he's the only Pokemon in OU whose sets cannot be beaten by a single commonly seen Pokemon in OU, you need a strategy to beat him. I'm not sure this makes him Uber, though.
The thing is, even with pokemon that have hard counters, it may be a case that the hard counter in question doesn't fit well on your team, in which case you'd still need a strategy to get around them. For example, on a team that utilises primarily fast pokemon, Machamp as a Tyranitar counter or Vaporeon as a Gyarados counter would be unfitting.
What bugs me about Salamence is that he's the only Pokemon in OU whose sets cannot be beaten by a single commonly seen Pokemon in OU, you need a strategy to beat him. I'm not sure this makes him Uber, though.
This. Pro-Uber needs to show that using strategy to beat Mence makes it broken, especially since the strategy in this case is usually "send in death fodder then revenge with BP", and why using strategy to defeat other Pokes using strategy, as Objection pointed out, doesn't make them broken.
@Quataaa, yes Cresselia is actually a really good pokemon in terms of stats, but once you put it into the metagame, rampaging with Scizors and Tyranitar, you are not getting very far. Because of this, Cresselia is forced to run a very physically defensive set, allowing Gengar to hurt it, badly.
But, full health physically defensive cresselia survives gengar's shadow ball then ohko's back with psychic.
Also keep in mind that CB ttar's crunch does not ohko cresselia (i believe). cresselia can then fire back (or fire first depending on speeds) an hp fighting, and hp fighting may actually be an ohko after one or two calm minds (depending on nature and ev's).
Look, cresselia has a few counters. OK. But a lot of good ou pokes do as well. how this makes cresselia nonviable just boggles the mind. this is why you build a team where the pokes support each other. Pair cresselia with magnezone, and a check for gengar, and you are in good shape.
And cresselia as a pure wall, that spams toxics, twaves, rests, and all that jazz, is very effective. a lunar dance cresselia can actually set up on a choiced pokemon who's locked into pursuit (which again, does maybe 30% to cresselia if it stays in).
Yes sandstorm cripples moonlight... and that sucks, but that does not make cresselia unviable.
Cresselia is a wall. That's its main job. wall. However without a viable recovery outside of the 25% recovery in sandstorm from moonlight or the 2 turn sleep full health rest it's just that that great. What successful walls are in the ou meta without a viable recovery?
If we look at ScarfTar (Who IS the current standard), Pursuit does 54.5% damage maximum, so Cress can switch out and come back later. I'm interested in you say how Cress will die to SR upon next switch-in but you fail to apply the same argument to Mence as well. If Mence is forced out, it's pretty much going to die next switch in as well.
Look, I'm not going to defend a bad set that was invented out of neccesity to stop Latias. CBTar is just the better set. End of story. As for the "pretty much going to die" statement, that's completely unfounded. In two switches into Rocks, Mence takes 50% while Cress takes 25%. Mence takes no damage switching out whereas, Cress takes 65% minimum from CBTar, leaving Cress with 10% when it switches back in on the now 50% Mence. Which, no matter what set Mence is running, can be overcome. So it is only a one time counter.
Oh, and what is this "Cresselia and Regirock are not OU and therefore not part of the Standard metagame" bullshit?? They are both allowed in OU, so they are part of the metagame. Everything that is allowed in OU is part of the OU metagame.
No, they are not. Just because they are allowed in OU doesn't mean that they are OU.
Are you telling me any Pokemon that is not OU is shit in OU?? Conversely, are you telling everything that is OU is good in OU?? Would you tell me that Shaymin/Raikou/Sceptile are crap?? Would you tell me Ninjask is good?? I play Ubers too, so based on your logic, would you tell me Forretress and Scizor are crap there too?? Would you tell me Jynx is crap in UU?? OU/UU/NU are based on usage, and while usage is an indicator if a Pokemon is good or not, it certainly does not tell you the full story. I love the irony here on how you're saying I'm ignorant and you're telling me this.
I love the irony because I actually NEVER SAID THIS. You assumed all of that crap. And none of it was ever my point. My point was that if it isn't OU, it simply cannot be a part of the discussion of how well Mence does in OU. By definition they MUST be excluded from the argument since they are not a part of OU, and therefore not a part of the OU meta. The fact that Cresselia actually happens to be shitty in OU has nothing to do with it. While we're on it, Regirock also has a terrible defensive typing with 5 very common weaknesses.
Finally, checks can die to something they're checking, well duh. The definition of a check is a Pokemon who may not be able to switch into the Pokemon they're checking with 100% guarantee (Otherwise, it's a counter), but once they are in safely, they can beat that Pokemon. So yes, Jirachi is a check to Salamence, but not a counter. Get your definitions of checks and counters right. I love the irony - Oh wait, I've said that already.
Yeah, Jirachi? Fun fact: Physical Choice Scarf Jirachi runs 176 speed EVs. So he loses to DDMence 100% of the time. Even if you ran max speed you'd still lose 50% of the time. So, by your definition of "getting in safely and beating Mence," he's actually NOT a check. He is a check for the MixMence set, but not for Mence himself. Thanks for playing though.
Here's a list of things that RELIABLY check all forms of Mence.
Cressilia hits Salamence for 78.55% - 93.05% with an Ice Beam with no boosing anything, no Evs, no items, no boosting natures...nothing. So, according to you. Salamence gets KO'ed with SR............ by a soothing breeze?
Yeah, Cress, barely gets a kill off on a x4 weakness who's also weak to SR. You'll notice in that post I said that she does threaten Mence. However, you'll also notice how she can't do shit otherwise.
I have to agree largely with Shrang. Cressilia is one of the few pokemon that take take a few or Saamence's attacks. Sure it says something about how powerful Mence is if we are commenting on a non OU (ie most used pokemon) to be used as a Salamence counter but its true that cress can stand up to Salamence. It can also set up a Reflect which limits the amount of damage it takes from Pursuit.
Aye, we've found it. The only good OU set Cresselia has. Dual Screens. But wait, she has no recovery on the Dual Screens set. That set only PP stalls, and frustrates the enemy team, but it's not going to get any kills or stop anything permanently outside of Mence.
Wouldn't the fact that Salamence's hard counters aren't used be an indication if its un-brokenness? Salamence obviously isn't big enough of a threat that a team has to pack a counter no matter what.
Wouldn't the fact that Salamence's hard counters aren't used be an indication if its un-brokenness? Salamence obviously isn't big enough of a threat that a team has to pack a counter no matter what.
No, it's rather an indication of how bad the counters are, and is also a commentary on how every single team carries two to three checks to Mence, so the counters aren't needed.
Yeah, Jirachi? Fun fact: Physical Choice Scarf Jirachi runs 176 speed EVs. So he loses to DDMence 100% of the time. Even if you ran max speed you'd still lose 50% of the time. So, by your definition of "getting in safely and beating Mence," he's actually NOT a check. He is a check for the MixMence set, but not for Mence himself. Thanks for playing though.
Just to qualify this, NO Scarf Jirachi EVER runs less than Jolly max speed, precisely because it can serve as a backup check to Mence. The analysis is incorrect and needs to be changed.
Just to qualify this, NO Scarf Jirachi EVER runs less than Jolly max speed, precisely because it can serve as a backup check to Mence. The analysis is incorrect and needs to be changed.
The thing is, the fact that Jirachi, and Flygon for that matter, run max speed, as opposed to just what they need, just to serve as Mence checks, shows how Mence centralizes the metagame and makes people run "less-than-ideal" sets.
It's still standard at the moment, which stemming from your logic, is it's best set (Seeing as your arguments are OU are the best and everything else is shit).
No, they are not. Just because they are allowed in OU doesn't mean that they are OU.
Again, this is stupid. "Not OU = shit" is as almost as bad as "Mence isn't Uber because he isn't a legendary". Cresselia and Regirock are not bad Pokemon, and I want to get this into your head, that every Pokemon that is not Uber is a part of the OU metagame. It doesn't matter if they don't have the label, they can still be used to stomp your ass when it's appropriate.
I love the irony because I actually NEVER SAID THIS. You assumed all of that crap. And none of it was ever my point. My point was that if it isn't OU, it simply cannot be a part of the discussion of how well Mence does in OU. By definition they MUST be excluded from the argument since they are not a part of OU, and therefore not a part of the OU meta. The fact that Cresselia actually happens to be shitty in OU has nothing to do with it. While we're on it, Regirock also has a terrible defensive typing with 5 very common weaknesses.
I know you never said this, but your logic is implying it. Your argument is so flawed that people can draw such conclusions from it. Again, you cannot discount a Pokemon because they are not OU. Remember MixApe and Tentacruel?? Last time I checked, a massive reason for Tentacruel getting a promotion into OU was to check NP MixApe, but he was UU at the time. Would you say "Oh shit, Tentacruel is a UU, so we can just discount him as a feasible counter in Infernape"??
Yeah, Jirachi? Fun fact: Physical Choice Scarf Jirachi runs 176 speed EVs. So he loses to DDMence 100% of the time. Even if you ran max speed you'd still lose 50% of the time. So, by your definition of "getting in safely and beating Mence," he's actually NOT a check. He is a check for the MixMence set, but not for Mence himself. Thanks for playing though.
| Jirachi | Speed EV | Max | 32.7 |
What do we have here?? Stop theorymoning off stuff that you see off Smogon analyses and actually get in touch with the metagame (Quite a lot of the analyses are out of date). If Jirachi had 100% of beating Mence, he'd be called a counter, not a check.
Yeah, Cress, barely gets a kill off on a x4 weakness who's also weak to SR. You'll notice in that post I said that she does threaten Mence. However, you'll also notice how she can't do shit otherwise.
Cresselia can check more than just Mence. You can tailor her to check Infernape, Gyarados, Mamoswine and plenty of other Pokes. While she can't handle them all at once, she can patch up weaknesses in her team.
Oh, and for the Breloom discussion a page back, Celebi curbstomps Breloom. Yes, Breloom can put you to sleep, but you can just let Celebi sit there and wall him all day long. Focus Punch will do lol damage to Celebi.
The thing is, the fact that Jirachi, and Flygon for that matter, run max speed, as opposed to just what they need, just to serve as Mence checks, shows how Mence centralizes the metagame and makes people run "less-than-ideal" sets.
| Jirachi | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 37.6 |
| Jirachi | Speed EV | Max | 32.7 |
Looks like to me that's not true. They more often than not run less than max speed and just let Salamence be one thing they can't handle.
I would encourage everyone to check their facts before posting, because I tire of posting these things. But the last thing I will do is let you lie to everyone.
EDIT: Looks like someone posted something before I did, but with equally non-accurate information. Look at the whole picture and you see that WOW, not everyone runs max speed on Jirachi, wow!
You do need realise Jirachi has about 100 other sets to choose from, like WishCM and all that, right?? So obviously, not EVERYONE will run Max speed, since they want their Jirachi to do something else and let something else like Suicune check Mence.
You do need realise Jirachi has about 100 other sets to choose from, like WishCM and all that, right?? So obviously, not EVERYONE will run Max speed, since they want their Jirachi to do something else and let something else like Suicune check Mence.
Choice Scarf is used 38.4%. Which by the way means most Jirachi are NOT used to revenge Salamence, but anyway.
32.7% of EVERY Jirachi uses max speed. ((38.4% - 32.7%)/38.4%) X 100% = 14.8%
So, 14.8% of Scarf Jirachi, at MINIMUM, run less than max speed. This is not 100% accurate because other sets use Jolly and max speed, but this is the MINIMUM.
The fact is, more than half of all Jirachi, 53.9% use Leftovers. Of the ones that use Scarf, 14.8% don't use max speed. So, that's a significant majority of Jirachi not trying to counter or check or revenge Salamence because it's a losing game.
Yes, it's true that usage does not imply power. However, when a Pokémon's usage can't crack ~3% usage, there's an obvious problem. I think that people are beginning to rely a little bit too much on naive theorymon, and ignoring what's actually going on in the OU environment. I mean, I know we're all playing OU right now, but when people start to name checks and counters, it's almost as if they're trying to describe a game that no one has played yet.
When the practical results don't agree with the theorymon results, usually the practical results should win out. This really shouldn't need to be said, but apparently it does. In science, when the experiments disagree with the theory (accounting for sources of error), the theory is what needs to change. The Ultraviolet Catastrophe led to a shift in thinking to quantum mechanics, while the Michelson-Morley experiment gave rise to relativity. Yes, the practical usage statistics have a few large problems right now, but with some easy responsible assessments we can still produce decent interpretations.
So please, before you say, "Hey, this Pokémon counters Salamence," think about what you're saying. Pokémon like Cresselia are evidently the "Ultraviolet Catastrophes" of this thread. Cresselia should be used to counter the allegedly uncounterable Salamence, but IRL, the fact is that it just isn't happening. Clearly, your theorymon is not good enough to describe the OU environment in an anywhere near accurate manner.
Because running a spread of 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe increases your bulk substantially while letting you outrun everything you need to outrun. If Salamence wasn't present, what are you running max Spe for? To tie with ScarfGon? Not worth it, and there's no other common scarfers that warrant the usage of Max Spe.
| Jirachi | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 37.6 |
| Jirachi | Speed EV | Max | 32.7 |
Looks like to me that's not true. They more often than not run less than max speed and just let Salamence be one thing they can't handle.
I would encourage everyone to check their facts before posting, because I tire of posting these things. But the last thing I will do is let you lie to everyone.
EDIT: Looks like someone posted something before I did, but with equally non-accurate information. Look at the whole picture and you see that WOW, not everyone runs max speed on Jirachi, wow!
Choice Scarf is used 38.4%. Which by the way means most Jirachi are NOT used to revenge Salamence, but anyway.
32.7% of EVERY Jirachi uses max speed. ((38.4% - 32.7%)/38.4%) X 100% = 14.8%
So, 14.8% of Scarf Jirachi, at MINIMUM, run less than max speed. This is not 100% accurate because other sets use Jolly and max speed, but this is the MINIMUM.
The fact is, more than half of all Jirachi, 53.9% use Leftovers. Of the ones that use Scarf, 14.8% don't use max speed. So, that's a significant majority of Jirachi not trying to counter or check or revenge Salamence because it's a losing game.
