Pokemon Black & White, aka Gen 5. Coming to Japan in Fall 2010.

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blasphemy1 said:
AH you're right, 154/373 maximum. Still, why wasn't Gen III perfectly balanced? Sceptile had Leaf Blade for Swampert, Swampert had Earthquake/Muddy Water for Blaziken, and Blaziken had Blaze Kick for Sceptile. Sceptile couldn't OHKO Blaziken with Earthquake, either. To be honest, I don't really mind if this generation is balanced. I loved the challenge of Generation III and using Sceptile or Swampert, because I had to catch something like Taillow or Wingull lest I lose to my rival under the Mauville Bridge.
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See my edit above. You're right, they're pretty close, but actually it's Blaziken hitting both with neutral STAB, which gives it an advantage.

@ Fizz
Obviously, starters are balanced when the effectiveness of the one your rival picks over the one you pick is the same for any pokemon you can pick.
A good example is gen2: Your rival hits your starter super effective with his STAB, while you hit him not very effective with your STAB moves, but you can have a non-STAB move to hit him super-effective. That works, regardless of which pokemon you actually pick.
A bad example is gen3: If you pick Infernape, your rival picks Empoleon. Nonetheless, you can easily beat Empoleon with fighting STAB. That's truely bad balance. lol
 
Intro1827 said:
Blasphemy, I think you're using "balanced" in a different way than everyone else, who might think it means "every starter can kill the other two reliably"
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Balance isn't just about starter vs. starter, but a variety of things. Some things they have to consider are the Pokemon available early on in your encounters, gym matchups, evil team's, etc. Infernape wasn't just better because it could beat Torterra and Empoleon, but also because it could manhandle most of Team Galactic's Pokemon, and it was incredibly useful during all stages of the game (Torterra is near useless near Snowpoint). Meanwhile, Generation I was tough for Charmander users, but it was much more useful later in the game when you picked up Fly and fighting gyms like Koga and Erika. Sure, Bulbasaur was the easiest to start off with, but later in the game Charizard showed its strength, which is why I think it was well balanced (of course Blastoise had Surf, 'nuff said). In Generation III, Mudkip or Treecko users could catch a Taillow or Wingull early on to prepare for Sceptile or Blaziken, respectively. These things made the game more balanced than Generation II or IV.
 
Shroomisaur said:
What I don't understand is why people theorymoning all these new Pokemon consistently want them to have top tier typings and stats - it's not going to happen! Not EVERY Pokemon can be OU, and that's the way it should be; there's nothing wrong if Smugleaf does wind up being a UU Grass/Flying type, in fact, he could be extremely powerful if he did take that evolutionary path.
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Well I want Tsutaja to be in OU Tier because there haven't had Grass type starter in that tier.
 
Strydorman said:
Wouldn't Fire/Ground typing get nuetral damage from SR though?

Wotter final = Water/fighting
Smugleaf final = Grass/Flying (changed my mind from steel, this actually makes more sense now)
Pignite final = Fire/Ground

To me this seems fairly balanced. Except Smugleaf would own on Wotter, although Swampert owned Blaziken just as much in Gen 3.
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I don't think we should be equating how "good" a pokemon is with its viability and power within the current Standard metagame. Water/Rock isn't a "bad" or impossible typing for the Water starter just because none of its recipients have made OU...Meganium, Charizard and Typhlosion are NU...as well as over half of the fully-evolved Pokemon in the game, and none of them were scrapped because they wouldn't be heavily used in our artificial metagame.

On that note, I think that Pokabu could end up with Rock as its secondary typing. Fire/Rock completes the triangle with the (likely, imho) Grass/Flying and Water/Fighting evolutions of the other two starters - although I am aware that starter triangles are rarely perfect.
This secondary triangle moves in the same direction as the primary triangle, meaning that each Pokemon would have two super-effective STABs against the next - which might at first seem to upset the idea of "balance", but when seen differently gives balance on a larger scale, as the triangle would then have perfect equilibrium. Kind of like the Yin/Yang motif expressed in other parts of this game.

As far as competitive battling is concerned, it is arguably the worst typing in the game. But on paper, and to Gamefreak, an Earthquake weakness is really no worse than a Sludge Bomb weakness. Magcargo resists as many types as it's weak against.

one more thing
I noticed this trend kinda in the images
Wotter-> Samurai
Pignite-> Ninja (the bandanna)
Smugleaf-> ???
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I think the obvious answer is Pirate.
 
lacerta said:
I don't think we should be equating how "good" a pokemon is with its viability and power within the current Standard metagame.

Exactly, GameFreak does not design Pokemon with their competitive ability in mind, they do so with design and flavor in mind.

On that note, I think that Pokabu could end up with Rock as its secondary typing. Fire/Rock completes the triangle with the (likely, imho) Grass/Flying and Water/Fighting evolutions of the other two starters - although I am aware that starter triangles are rarely perfect.

Actually, this got me thinking: I thought Pokabu would go Fire/Dark, and Water/Fighting is most likely for Wotter, so:
Water/Fighting
Fire/Dark
Grass/PSYCHIC
This would give us not only the Fire/Water/Grass trio, but the Fighting/Dark/Psychic triangle that has been rumored in the past. I doubt this will happen, but it's a possibility.

I think the obvious answer is Pirate.

Yep.
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What is people's obsession with Psychic/Fighting/Dark, anyway? I honestly don't see why people consider it a "trio" like Grass/Fire/Water. It really doesn't have the same kind of synergy at all, I don't think anything does, which I'm willing to bet is WHY they use Grass/Fire/Water to demonstrate type weaknesses and resistances.

Also, I swear to god, Tsutarja better not become Grass/Flying. For the love everything holy, make it this except less abstract.
 
Flying/Fighting/Rock shares the same pattern, as do Grass/Poison/Ground and Rock/Fire/Steel. Psychic/Fighting/Dark comes close...if only it weren't for Dark's immunity.

I think it's an obsession because of a set of fake 3rd Gen starters that popped up a while before the official ones were revealed...they were Fighting/Dark/Psychic, and since then it's been a hope each generation.
 
lacerta said:
Flying/Fighting/Rock shares the same pattern, as do Grass/Poison/Ground and Rock/Fire/Steel. Psychic/Fighting/Dark comes close...if only it weren't for Dark's immunity.

I think it's an obsession because of a set of fake 3rd Gen starters that popped up a while before the official ones were revealed...they were Fighting/Dark/Psychic, and since then it's been a hope each generation.
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Flying/Fighting/Rock do not resist themselves. None of your trios totally do (Also, I would assume another trio would be made of totally different types, not one from the starters, like the Rock/Fire/Steel one).

That makes sense. A lot of people seem to let small things get to them, like Serebii's "oh it looks like a mantis" when Ononokusu really doesn't look like a god damn mantis, yet everyone still thinks it does.
 
I wouldn't mind another 3-stage Ice pokemon thats a polar bear. Would be pretty cool. Ice/Fighting. Give it Snow Warning and a great bulk. With Bulk Up, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Avalanche, Superpower, and Hammer Arm among its level up moves.
 
PKMN Trainer Manson said:
Flying/Fighting/Rock do not resist themselves. None of your trios totally do (Also, I would assume another trio would be made of totally different types, not one from the starters, like the Rock/Fire/Steel one).
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Umm...they do. They resist each other in exactly the same way as Fire/Grass/Water, you could check again. And all of them do. Those four are the only triangles in the game that work in perfectly in both directions, but Flying/Fighting/Rock is the only one that doesn't include Fire, Water or Grass.
 
lacerta said:
Umm...they do. They resist each other in exactly the same way as Fire/Grass/Water, you could check again. And all of them do. Those four are the only triangles in the game that work in perfectly in both directions, but Flying/Fighting/Rock is the only one that doesn't include Fire, Water or Grass.
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... Flying doesn't resist Flying. Rock doesn't resist Rock. Etc. However, Grass, Fire, and Water resist themselves.
 
Gaburaisu said:
HAH A POLAR BEAR!! I'm NOT crazy.
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I want a Ice/Fighting Polar Bear, too. It should have Thick Fat and Snow Cloak, IMO (or Intimidate). Thick Fat would leave it only weak to Fighting and Steel, nice.

Grass/Fire/Water just seem like the best types for starters, IMO. They represent the elements extremely well, and they just seem so natural.
 
Gaburaisu said:
HAH A POLAR BEAR!! I'm NOT crazy.
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...That is subject to debate. lol
TsengHyena said:
I wouldn't mind another 3-stage Ice pokemon thats a polar bear. Would be pretty cool. Ice/Fighting. Give it Snow Warning and a great bulk. With Bulk Up, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Avalanche, Superpower, and Hammer Arm among its level up moves.
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That sounds like an excellent idea, just so long as we're all clear that this would NOT be a sad otter evo, but a different Pokemon line altogether. "Bulk" is generally a misnomer on an Ice-type, but with Fighting covering the Rock weakness, and maybe Think Fat as a secondary ability option, it could have tanking potential with a Bulk Up set.

@lacerta, I believe what he meant is Flying doesn't resist Flying, Fighting doesn't resist Fighting, etc. In this way, they are not like Fire/Grass/Water. Psychic/Dark/Fighting is as close as you'll come, which is why people got obsessed with that rumor years ago.

EDIT: Ninja'd... at least I was right.
 
I want a Ice/Fighting Polar Bear, too. It should have Thick Fat and Snow Cloak, IMO (or Intimidate). Thick Fat would leave it only weak to Fighting and Steel, nice.
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God. With access to Bulk Up and Hail with Thick Fat, this thing would be beast.

That sounds like an excellent idea, just so long as we're all clear that this would NOT be a sad otter evo, but a different Pokemon line altogether. "Bulk" is generally a misnomer on an Ice-type, but with Fighting covering the Rock weakness, and maybe Think Fat as a secondary ability option, it could have tanking potential with a Bulk Up set.
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Yeah. Ice is fine as an attacking type, but I want Gamefreak to give at least 1 more Ice line that has the ability to bulk up and take damage letting Hail get to work.
 
Other than Fire/Grass/Water, there's only Rock/Flying/Fighting for starters. Maybe Ice/Ground/Steel, but Ground is neutral against Ice.
 
Smugleaf won't be grass/dragon.... dragon is portrayed as 'the ultimate type,' capable of beating 'the standard.' AKA it resists ALL OF THE STARTERS... including Pikachu. -____-
 
TsengHyena said:
God. With access to Bulk Up and Hail with Thick Fat, this thing would be beast.

Yeah. Ice is fine as an attacking type, but I want Gamefreak to give at least 1 more Ice line that has the ability to bulk up and take damage letting Hail get to work.
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Actually, Ice is a wonderful attacking type, and paired with Fighting, it is nearly unresisted: only Water/Bug (oh no, Surskit will wall you), Water/Poison (Tentacruel, Qwilfish), and Water/Psychic(Slowbro/king, Starmie) resist both. Pretty good coverage, plus both Fighting and Ice have tons of potential to hit SE, unlike Water/Normal, for example.
 
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