I use Adamant Agility Blaziken, and it's incredible. While it is somewhat lacking in raw power (Superpower is a worse idea, as you no longer run SD), it makes a great standalone sweeper or late-game finisher.
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Someone used a Choice Scarf Medicham with an Agility LOPorygon2 with Download instead of trace and it worked wonders against my team. With a choice locked Shadow Ball from revenging Medicham, Porygon2 was free to set up a +1SpA +2Speed sweep that finished off the rest of my team. Seems to be really powerful because it has Thunderbolt and Ice Beam at +1 to decimate Venusaurs and Milotics alike while also outspeeding the most common scarfer of the tier, Rotom.
Not sure why more people don't use him.
And on another note, not understanding why people use Registeel leads. He's like a Swampert lead in OU where 90% of leads beat him. And on the subject of leads, I'm expecting a huge spike (pun intended) in Qwilfish leads because I keep seeing them and I keep losing the speed tie -_-
Not sure why more people don't use him.
And on another note, not understanding why people use Registeel leads. He's like a Swampert lead in OU where 90% of leads beat him. And on the subject of leads, I'm expecting a huge spike (pun intended) in Qwilfish leads because I keep seeing them and I keep losing the speed tie -_-
Regarding who has the advantage in a spinner vs ghost situation, I think it is the ghost player. I assume that they are trying to spin in order to remove SR for something like Scyther or Moltres, in which case they essentially lose a teammate if their spin fails. Also, killing the ghost isn't necessarily a win for the spinner, especially if they had to come in on a few layers of spikes to get in. With the exception of Claydol (which sucks), spinners are susceptible to spikes. Killing the ghost doesn't guarantee spin, and if you can force out the spinner with your switch-in, or force them into a "spin or live" situation, they are guaranteed to lose a poke or two no matter what. Of course, all of this depends on a variety of factors. Is the source of the rocks still present? Does the blocker have a strong switch-in to the spinner (This is especially important if you can predict a foresight)? how many hazards are up? Does the team have 1 or more hazard-weak 'mons? All of these are important questions in this scenario.
Focus Blast is actually really useful if you're running Modest. It lets you KO Chansey and Milotic after SR which Sludge Bomb fails to accomplish. I love NP Toxicroak, and is probably the best Offensive mon I have ever used in UU. It just rips apart teams with Moltres.
Another mon you're forgetting is Hitmonlee. Fighting types in general are scary because A) their primary counters can easily be trapped (ghosts) B) Their secondary counters are 2KOed after SR (Flying types). The Psychics are too frail and can be trapped while Poison types suffer from Blaziken troubles as does Spiritomb which is neutral to Pursuit making a Fighting mono team very viable.
Edit: On another note, LO Medicham rocks. :)
I think you're forgetting the best Hitmonlee (and fighting pokes in general except for mix Blaziken) counter, which doesn't suffer from frailness or whatever: Slowbro.
Anyway:
I think SD Scyther is also underrated (since everyone's using CB). One SD, and this hits extremely hard. Put in Quick Attack, and there's not much stopping you... ok there it is, but still...
Anyway:
I think SD Scyther is also underrated (since everyone's using CB). One SD, and this hits extremely hard. Put in Quick Attack, and there's not much stopping you... ok there it is, but still...
Ghosts are far from reliable counters to Fighting-types. Rotom and Mismagius can be KOed by Payback on the switch in and are 2HKOed by anything else; how are these counters? The only Ghost that can somewhat counter them is Spiritomb and even than Fighters like Hariyama and Hitmontop can still run through him.
The biggest roadblocks, now and forever, for most Fighting-types are bulky Psychic-and Poison-types.
The biggest roadblocks, now and forever, for most Fighting-types are bulky Psychic-and Poison-types.
What makes you say that?
Venusaur is broken for many things, but the set that really sets it apart and breaks it is this:
Venusaur @ Life Orb
252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP | Timid
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder
This Venusaur has fantastic bulk, and can afford free switches on the likes of Milotic, Spiritomb, Rotom, Sceptile, and many more top Pokèmon. Once in, you can't predict what it will do. Although I am nominating the special set, the problem with Venusaur is that he has many viable sets. You can swap in Chansey, but you risk eating a boosted or Life Orb Power Whip or Leech Seed. You can being in Rotom to absorb the sleep, but he risks taking a Leaf Storm. The only thing that can switch into every set is possibly Weezing, who can take 40% from a Leaf Storm. Even Registeel can be slept and killed via +2 Earthquake. With this unpredictability, it is virtually guaranteed to net two kills, or a kill and sleep; often it gets more.
Unpredictability alone, however, is not enough to break a Pokèmon. Venusaur's brokeness comes from a combination of great typing (resistances to Grass, Water, Electric, and Fighting), fantastic stats (80/80/100 on the defensive and 83/100 on the offensive), and moderate speed, combined with what is arguably the best movepool in UU. Synthesis means that even if Milotic hits it with a surprise Ice Beam, its fantastic special defense lets him eat it, Synthesis off the damage, and continue to force it out the entire game.
The main pokemon people use to take on Venusaur are Fire-types, for obvious reasons. However, Fire-types have a nasty Stealth Rock weakness. This, combined with the fact that Venusaur is an amazing psuedo spin blocker (fully stops Hitmontop, Blastoise, and Donphan to an extent), means that his main counters are going to be forced to heal after taking 65% or more by a Leaf Storm + SR.
To summarize, Venusaur is broken due to its versatility which stops any one pokemon from fully countering it, its ability to very easily net two kills, counter many pokemon, and sleep another, its stats and typing which afford it many free switches to abuse said versatility, and its ability to exploit its main counters shared weakness by keeping rocks down, sleeping them, or just flat out killing them with an LO Sludge Bomb or boosted Earthquake. Venusaur is BL.
Venusaur @ Life Orb
252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP | Timid
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder
This Venusaur has fantastic bulk, and can afford free switches on the likes of Milotic, Spiritomb, Rotom, Sceptile, and many more top Pokèmon. Once in, you can't predict what it will do. Although I am nominating the special set, the problem with Venusaur is that he has many viable sets. You can swap in Chansey, but you risk eating a boosted or Life Orb Power Whip or Leech Seed. You can being in Rotom to absorb the sleep, but he risks taking a Leaf Storm. The only thing that can switch into every set is possibly Weezing, who can take 40% from a Leaf Storm. Even Registeel can be slept and killed via +2 Earthquake. With this unpredictability, it is virtually guaranteed to net two kills, or a kill and sleep; often it gets more.
Unpredictability alone, however, is not enough to break a Pokèmon. Venusaur's brokeness comes from a combination of great typing (resistances to Grass, Water, Electric, and Fighting), fantastic stats (80/80/100 on the defensive and 83/100 on the offensive), and moderate speed, combined with what is arguably the best movepool in UU. Synthesis means that even if Milotic hits it with a surprise Ice Beam, its fantastic special defense lets him eat it, Synthesis off the damage, and continue to force it out the entire game.
The main pokemon people use to take on Venusaur are Fire-types, for obvious reasons. However, Fire-types have a nasty Stealth Rock weakness. This, combined with the fact that Venusaur is an amazing psuedo spin blocker (fully stops Hitmontop, Blastoise, and Donphan to an extent), means that his main counters are going to be forced to heal after taking 65% or more by a Leaf Storm + SR.
To summarize, Venusaur is broken due to its versatility which stops any one pokemon from fully countering it, its ability to very easily net two kills, counter many pokemon, and sleep another, its stats and typing which afford it many free switches to abuse said versatility, and its ability to exploit its main counters shared weakness by keeping rocks down, sleeping them, or just flat out killing them with an LO Sludge Bomb or boosted Earthquake. Venusaur is BL.
i'm finding myself leaning more and more towards the bl camp. the "no safe switch-in" argument is basically the only one worth considering, but there are some nuances to it that i think are interesting and important.
versatility is a big factor in why it is hard to switch into. venusaur isn't really like moltres, another pokemon commonly described as having "no safe switches". cmon... milotic is a completely safe switch, as is chansey, regirock, sdef arcanine, even the very common mantine. ok i was kidding about mantine (it *is* a safe switch though) but the point is, the main reason moltres is hard to switch into is because it is so goddamn powerful. but it is also very predictable - sweeping sets are fire blast air slash hp grass roost, and that's it. subroost is not a set that aims to sweep. this means you can use stats and typing to intelligently switch into moltres.
but take venusaur. it's got poison grass typing, which means weezing with sdef evs should be a good switch. but damn it just slept you on the switch. or if it's the sd variant, bulky arcanine can eat an eq with intimidate and scare it out while recovering. damn it got slept as well. not to mention how screwed you are if you switch registeel into a sd eq venusaur while it dances if sleep clause isnt in effect, or even worse, if you switched chansey into it. what about sd return vs sdef weezing. sheesh. keep in mind that it's not just that switching into venusaur is hard when you don't know its set. switching into it is hard even when you do know its set because of sleep powder and high speed.
another important distinction is its longevity - venusaur is "robust". its got awesome defenses for a sweeper even without investment, and has some very common resistances to use. it also has more-or-less reliable recovery in synthesis. why is this important? this isnt an alakazam, who is also very hard to switch into but frail as hell, easily trapped, and without useful resistances. since we've established that the initial switch into venusaur is difficult... what happens when it makes you make this "initial switch" 10 times in a match? your team is target practice is what. it's a bit easier to switch into when you know its set, but not by too much. offensive teams tend to limit the number of switches venusaur gets, but it also takes a bigger hit from eating sludge bomb / sleep powder than defensive teams. dare i say this is the roserade situation all over again - a dangerous blend of versatility, staying power, and attackig power (including satk/speed stats) - and i definitely would have nominated roserade if i wasn't (a) busy writing a yanmega essay (b) sure roserade would get knocked up to ou.
i think the main split between the uu and bl camps comes down to a question of longevity. longevity directly impacts how viable revenge killing is - if you get a ton of free switches, forcing it out doesn't mean too much. revenge killing is directly affected by the difficulty of the initial switch, which is the primary argument (if its impossible to switch into, all you can do is revenge kill); cb head smash rampardos is pretty hard to switch into but its also got very short staying power and can be revenge killed pretty easily. the main reason i am leaning more towards bl now than a month or two ago is because i believe the longevity argument a lot more.
bad ass covered most of these ideas in his post but i just wanted to emphasize a few specific ideas and give my own perspective, i guess.
versatility is a big factor in why it is hard to switch into. venusaur isn't really like moltres, another pokemon commonly described as having "no safe switches". cmon... milotic is a completely safe switch, as is chansey, regirock, sdef arcanine, even the very common mantine. ok i was kidding about mantine (it *is* a safe switch though) but the point is, the main reason moltres is hard to switch into is because it is so goddamn powerful. but it is also very predictable - sweeping sets are fire blast air slash hp grass roost, and that's it. subroost is not a set that aims to sweep. this means you can use stats and typing to intelligently switch into moltres.
but take venusaur. it's got poison grass typing, which means weezing with sdef evs should be a good switch. but damn it just slept you on the switch. or if it's the sd variant, bulky arcanine can eat an eq with intimidate and scare it out while recovering. damn it got slept as well. not to mention how screwed you are if you switch registeel into a sd eq venusaur while it dances if sleep clause isnt in effect, or even worse, if you switched chansey into it. what about sd return vs sdef weezing. sheesh. keep in mind that it's not just that switching into venusaur is hard when you don't know its set. switching into it is hard even when you do know its set because of sleep powder and high speed.
another important distinction is its longevity - venusaur is "robust". its got awesome defenses for a sweeper even without investment, and has some very common resistances to use. it also has more-or-less reliable recovery in synthesis. why is this important? this isnt an alakazam, who is also very hard to switch into but frail as hell, easily trapped, and without useful resistances. since we've established that the initial switch into venusaur is difficult... what happens when it makes you make this "initial switch" 10 times in a match? your team is target practice is what. it's a bit easier to switch into when you know its set, but not by too much. offensive teams tend to limit the number of switches venusaur gets, but it also takes a bigger hit from eating sludge bomb / sleep powder than defensive teams. dare i say this is the roserade situation all over again - a dangerous blend of versatility, staying power, and attackig power (including satk/speed stats) - and i definitely would have nominated roserade if i wasn't (a) busy writing a yanmega essay (b) sure roserade would get knocked up to ou.
i think the main split between the uu and bl camps comes down to a question of longevity. longevity directly impacts how viable revenge killing is - if you get a ton of free switches, forcing it out doesn't mean too much. revenge killing is directly affected by the difficulty of the initial switch, which is the primary argument (if its impossible to switch into, all you can do is revenge kill); cb head smash rampardos is pretty hard to switch into but its also got very short staying power and can be revenge killed pretty easily. the main reason i am leaning more towards bl now than a month or two ago is because i believe the longevity argument a lot more.
bad ass covered most of these ideas in his post but i just wanted to emphasize a few specific ideas and give my own perspective, i guess.
Leafeon (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Double-edge
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Leaf Blade
I suppose you mean this set.
@whistle: I strongly disagree with the Roserade comparision. Rosie was a motherfucker with 90 base Speed, 125 base SpAtk that could beat Chansey on its own and setup 2 out of 3 entry hazards (not in the same set of course). Long story short, much stronger and literally caused any team problems, as it was bulky enough to get free switches and Spike its way to victory, unlike Venusaur.
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Double-edge
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Leaf Blade
I suppose you mean this set.
@whistle: I strongly disagree with the Roserade comparision. Rosie was a motherfucker with 90 base Speed, 125 base SpAtk that could beat Chansey on its own and setup 2 out of 3 entry hazards (not in the same set of course). Long story short, much stronger and literally caused any team problems, as it was bulky enough to get free switches and Spike its way to victory, unlike Venusaur.
Hey I am Upstart, I just started pokemon battling and spent most of my time in the UU tier. Now with the introductions out of the way I would like to give at least what I have seen in just a week of playing. I don't mean to kick a dead dog here, but rain a monster. However most players of it are missing two important things 1. general battling skills and how to use the team and 2. diversity. As many are already prepared for the standard threats it is the diversity that will throw other players for a loop. A great example of this Flareblitz who's unconventional rain team was far better then any I have yet to play. However the fun doesn't stop there, rain not only has diversity but the power to 2 hit almost if not all pokemon in the tier. +2 Kabutops and Ludicolo are no laughing matter. Not to mention 8 turns to cause as much havoc as possible.
Now with that out of the way I must say I now know why Milotic and Venusaur are top of the tier. Milotic can wall more then half the tier. Where as Venusaur can do whatever he wants and still incapacitate at least 1 of your pokemon. On the question of BL: Milotic just doesn't have the the bulk without specailizing which leaves it open to other threats Ex Torterra. Venusaur has great versatality that allows it to defend either specail or physical attacks or go on either offensive. This is all well and good except Venusaur has two things that I think set him on if not over the BL line a means of healing and a means of sleep. Sleep in itself is such an amazing ability greatly hindering or even leading to the end of one of your opponents pokemon; however recovery allows Venusaur to stay alive and continuing his/her havoc.
Now with that out of the way I must say I now know why Milotic and Venusaur are top of the tier. Milotic can wall more then half the tier. Where as Venusaur can do whatever he wants and still incapacitate at least 1 of your pokemon. On the question of BL: Milotic just doesn't have the the bulk without specailizing which leaves it open to other threats Ex Torterra. Venusaur has great versatality that allows it to defend either specail or physical attacks or go on either offensive. This is all well and good except Venusaur has two things that I think set him on if not over the BL line a means of healing and a means of sleep. Sleep in itself is such an amazing ability greatly hindering or even leading to the end of one of your opponents pokemon; however recovery allows Venusaur to stay alive and continuing his/her havoc.
well obviously i'm not referring to roserade sets with spikes when comparing it to venusaur, silly bluewind!
roserade @ life orb (timid)
4 hp / 252 satk / 252 spe
- sludge bomb
- leaf storm
- synthesis
- sleep powder
looks kind of familiar! i mean there are some obvious differences, like roserade's higher speed and special attack and lower defense. but both of these sets play basically the same way and have similar counters. roserade would be a little better at hammering through chansey/altaria (and weezing if people used sdef back then) but it can't take physical hits at all, so there goes a bunch of your switch-in opportunities.
anyone know where the round 3 nomination thread went? eo posted a roserade nom that i remember i agreed with almost 100%; even if it's not useful for "proper tiering discussion" it would be nice to read just for nostalgia/curiosity's sake. uu subforum doesn't have it... google doesn't have it... jabba's created threads doesn't have it... reach's created threads doesn't have it... grr
edit: good sig bluewind
roserade @ life orb (timid)
4 hp / 252 satk / 252 spe
- sludge bomb
- leaf storm
- synthesis
- sleep powder
looks kind of familiar! i mean there are some obvious differences, like roserade's higher speed and special attack and lower defense. but both of these sets play basically the same way and have similar counters. roserade would be a little better at hammering through chansey/altaria (and weezing if people used sdef back then) but it can't take physical hits at all, so there goes a bunch of your switch-in opportunities.
anyone know where the round 3 nomination thread went? eo posted a roserade nom that i remember i agreed with almost 100%; even if it's not useful for "proper tiering discussion" it would be nice to read just for nostalgia/curiosity's sake. uu subforum doesn't have it... google doesn't have it... jabba's created threads doesn't have it... reach's created threads doesn't have it... grr
edit: good sig bluewind
Well there would be more to it of course. Roserade gets an extra 17% power (almost a Plate's boost on all attacks) as well as the Speed, the raw power of Modest (if you choose to run so) and, more importantly, Natural Cure. This is what made sure Roserade could much more effectively get past through Chansey among others and be a threat no matter what until the endgame, as a random paralysis from a Chansey or Discharge Rotom didn't completely fuck it up. Weezing, for example, can't do shit to Roserade and is defeated the first time it comes in, as she doesn't care about WoW and 3HKOes it with Sludge Bomb + Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm IIRC. That was the kind of thing that pushes Roserade into BL much more than it does to Venusaur.
And yeah, awesome signature whoostle.
And yeah, awesome signature whoostle.
Not many people used HP Ground and especially Rock, since Rosie was just so effective (and you could sleep Registeel easy, and possibly beat Moltres with a speed tie).
I've used these pokes before, and they were very good. Leafeon pretty much got a spot on nearly all my teams since I used him because he is so good, base 95 Speed lets him out speed every Moltres if he's Jolly so unless they have a Choice Scarf, they are not able to revenge Leafeon and SR stops them from surviving Return/ Double Edge ( can't decide on which, using Return right now but should I change? same on item choice, Life Orb or Leftovers?). Also, he can survive a few hits with his Defense.
Choice Band Kanghaskan was good when I used him. Scrappy is really the best abilty he could have got. Ghosts can't switch in on him nearly as easly, being forced to eat a Return and most likely die if they aren't Spirtomb or defensive Rotom. He also has some good bulk to survive random hits.
I've alwasy wondered why these 2 pokes aren't used much, because they defientley do great from my experience.
But what about Double Edge + Synthesis? 0_o
(I use SD/ Leaf Blade/ Double Edge/ Synthesis @ Life Orb- works great)
The one biggest thing holding me back from voting Venusaur BL is the fact that every one of its sets is entirely counterable. Yes, it is very versatile, very unpredictable with no 100% safe switch-in, but once you have deduced the set, Venusaur is very easy to counter (Don't give me stuff like SD/Sludge Bomb, that set is very situational and lures aren't the best way to make something Support Characteristic worthy). Sleep Powder is annoying, yes, but it really is something you just have deal with (As I said before, is Sleep Clause not enough for everyone??).
Let's have a look at Pokemon that have been banned under the Support Characteristic (Or very likely banned under the SC):
Deoxys-S: Entry hazards helps others sweep, and Deoxys-S has a very high chance to get them up. Unlike Venusaur, he can spam that any time he wants, while Venusaur needs to predict properly to catch something with Sleep Powder.
Wobbuffet: Yeh, nothing can do what Wobb does, nothing.
Wynaut: Exception to above, but sucks.
Abomasnow: Auto-weather
Froslass: See Deoxys-S, but for UU
Crobat: Probably the most ambiguous of all UU bans, but yeh, I can't really comment on this one
Latias: No safe switch-ins with just ONE set (Specs set)
Salamence: See Latias
So if we compare Venusaur with them, he is always missing something, which makes him very checkable.
Let's have a look at Pokemon that have been banned under the Support Characteristic (Or very likely banned under the SC):
Deoxys-S: Entry hazards helps others sweep, and Deoxys-S has a very high chance to get them up. Unlike Venusaur, he can spam that any time he wants, while Venusaur needs to predict properly to catch something with Sleep Powder.
Wobbuffet: Yeh, nothing can do what Wobb does, nothing.
Wynaut: Exception to above, but sucks.
Abomasnow: Auto-weather
Froslass: See Deoxys-S, but for UU
Crobat: Probably the most ambiguous of all UU bans, but yeh, I can't really comment on this one
Latias: No safe switch-ins with just ONE set (Specs set)
Salamence: See Latias
So if we compare Venusaur with them, he is always missing something, which makes him very checkable.
Agree with shrang that the fact that every one of its sets are completely counterable, especially if sleep clause is active, makes me lean towards Venusaur being UU. Also while Venusaur may not use Sleep Powder at once, it also makes using it difficult for the Venusaur user because you can't tell if your opponent is going to switch to a status absorber / counter and you might waste your sleep ...
I'm also curious over a few things with the Venusaur nominations:
1. Why do people think Venusaur is more BL than other sleep-inducing Pokemon with a boosting move? What about Ninetales and Poliwrath? Ninetales may not have a reliable recovery move (it gets Pain Split though), but it can avoid being 2HKOed by Milotic Surfs while KO'ing back with Energy Ball, is much faster than Venusaur, can beat Altaria with HP Ice, etc. What about other unpredictable Pokemon like Sceptile and Arcanine? Sceptile can even run Grasswhistle to mimic Venusaur if it doesn't mind the accuracy, and has a much faster speed to compensate for less bulk, better attacking stats, yada yada.
2. Why does Eo think the fact that a combination of two Pokemon will always wall Raikou depending on what HP it runs makes Raikou UU, but two Pokemon walling Venusaur regardless of what set it runs makes Venusaur BL (other than Bluewind / whistle's signature)?
3. Why is the mixed Sceptile set on the analysis page not running max speed (OK this has nothing to do with Venusaur but I'm curious about it anyway)?
I'm also curious over a few things with the Venusaur nominations:
1. Why do people think Venusaur is more BL than other sleep-inducing Pokemon with a boosting move? What about Ninetales and Poliwrath? Ninetales may not have a reliable recovery move (it gets Pain Split though), but it can avoid being 2HKOed by Milotic Surfs while KO'ing back with Energy Ball, is much faster than Venusaur, can beat Altaria with HP Ice, etc. What about other unpredictable Pokemon like Sceptile and Arcanine? Sceptile can even run Grasswhistle to mimic Venusaur if it doesn't mind the accuracy, and has a much faster speed to compensate for less bulk, better attacking stats, yada yada.
2. Why does Eo think the fact that a combination of two Pokemon will always wall Raikou depending on what HP it runs makes Raikou UU, but two Pokemon walling Venusaur regardless of what set it runs makes Venusaur BL (other than Bluewind / whistle's signature)?
3. Why is the mixed Sceptile set on the analysis page not running max speed (OK this has nothing to do with Venusaur but I'm curious about it anyway)?
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