R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

All prediction is based around what your opponent knows. It just astounds me that this change has been made and that someone who knows the first thing about battling would defend this. I am genuinely furious. Gamefreak have ruined this game, far more than Wobbuffet could ever hoped to have.
I take umbrage to the suggestion that defenders of this change don't know the first thing about battling. What you seem to be implying is that Smogon's rule set for the previous generations, which did not include this mechanic, is the only competitive rule set out there. It's not.

I understand that you value the skill of predicting your opponent's team's composition. I'm impressed by Earthworm's prediction, too. But the fact is that part of what makes such prediction possible is the very centralized nature of Smogon's standard metagame. Again, I'm not belittling the skill of Earthworm and other players, but in a more varied metagame like doubles, such prediction would be next to impossible.

I like a game with more variety because it promotes different skills; skills that I enjoy putting to use. Knowing what a lot of obscure moves do, for instance. Knowing all the moves that a Pokemon can learn and figuring out why my opponent used a particular combination of Pokemon. Without the pregame mechanic, a metagame with more variety is more likely to come down to 'my team beats your team'. With it, you are much more likely to have enough knowledge to predict and overcome your opponent's plans.

So I guess what I'm saying is, sorry that the game you love has been so radically changed, but having played both games extensively I honestly find I prefer playing with foreknowledge of my opponent's Pokemon. And although I'm far from the best player out there, I think I can safely say that I know the first thing about battling.

God.. I'm genuinely upset about this.. It's disgraceful. The answer may have to be blindfold matches I guess..
I think that's a very reactionary response. I hope that you and the other Smogon higher-ups will extensively test this new change before excluding it entirely from Smogon's competitive play.
 
"Which style of team setup would you prefer?"

And you'd choose:

"CHRONOLOGICAL / STANDARD MODE"
OR
"SELECTION / 'STADIUM' MODE"

Voila, a crucial argument could've been fixed by Game Freak, via adding code, in about 30 minutes.

Good, I had in a post two pages down that it's likely they'll do it this way but I doubted it highly because I thought like, if you give people a choice they might not want to choose the one where their pokes are exposed.

I know I won't at first, Im just gonna accept the change. I think after a while though, people will try it out due to trying different varieties.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.


I take umbrage to the suggestion that defenders of this change don't know the first thing about battling. What you seem to be implying is that Smogon's rule set for the previous generations, which did not include this mechanic, is the only competitive rule set out there. It's not.

I understand that you value the skill of predicting your opponent's team's composition. I'm impressed by Earthworm's prediction, too. But the fact is that part of what makes such prediction possible is the very centralized nature of Smogon's standard metagame. Again, I'm not belittling the skill of Earthworm and other players, but in a more varied metagame like doubles, such prediction would be next to impossible.

I like a game with more variety because it promotes different skills; skills that I enjoy putting to use. Knowing what a lot of obscure moves do, for instance. Knowing all the moves that a Pokemon can learn and figuring out why my opponent used a particular combination of Pokemon. Without the pregame mechanic, a metagame with more variety is more likely to come down to 'my team beats your team'. With it, you are much more likely to have enough knowledge to predict and overcome your opponent's plans.

So I guess what I'm saying is, sorry that the game you love has been so radically changed, but having played both games extensively I honestly find I prefer playing with foreknowledge of my opponent's Pokemon. And although I'm far from the best player out there, I think I can safely say that I know the first thing about battling.


I think that's a very reactionary response. I hope that you and the other Smogon higher-ups will extensively test this new change before excluding it entirely from Smogon's competitive play.

I agree. I'm used to the regular way we battle but I encourage and support change. I like new ideas, but everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether it'll change the way we have to play or not.
 
Maybe if we're lucky they'll have more than one battle option on wifi. Like, in one kind of battle you'll get to see your opponent's team but in the other version you don't get to see. That should keep everyone happy :-).

Personally, if this is the ONLY WAY that you can have a battle then I am not happy about this. I mean, it doesn't even make any sense. In real life (assuming we lived in a pokemon world) you wouldn't be able to see what's inside your opponent's pokeballs, so how would you know what kind of pokemon they had??
 
I was kind of thinking of a similar niche to World of Warcraft.

With this in mind:
1. My Lead would "mark" something to target first. This can be by Paralysis/Sleep, Taunt, or Trick.
2. Other two Pokemon would defeat the target.
3. Lead would mark again.
4. ????
5. Profit
 
This is certainly an uneasy change for a lot of singles players. I'm not sure how to feel. My first instinct is to be upset at the loss of the type of battle I'm used to, but TheMaskedNitpicker's posts are very persuasive. I know I'll continue playing either way, but I guess I'll stay positive about pre-knowledge battles as they could end up being preferable.
 
I'm mixed about this. On the one hand, this means that it'll be harder to bring out a trap and surprise the opponent with a Pokemon held in reserve. While that's bad for offensive play or bulky offense, it also means that in-game you have to be more careful with prediction, and will help keep stall more viable as you know what might be coming in ahead.

Also, the suicide lead metagame was a bit of a monstrosity in my opinion, and if this kills it, I'll be glad to be rid of it.

The main thing that I am concerned about would be Pokemon that aren't like Salamence or Garchomp, which are perfectly dangerous even if the opponent knows about them, but other Pokemon that require surprise to be effective; Pokemon like Ditto and Zoroark especially are going to be hurt by this change, as if the opponent KNOWS that one of the enemy's Pokemon is a Zoroark, they'll be much more wary of any tricks that player might use.

What we do know is that this will change the lead metagame into something very different, and that strategies involving hiding a Pokemon for the end will no longer be viable. What I hope is that in response the metagame evolves to have more interesting predictions and more varied movesets to keep things interesting.
 
I just want to mention that while Wifi is effected by this, the simulator MIGHT be spared. I tested an IR battle between Black and White, and it doesnt actually show teams! HOWEVER, it does have a few quirks. There doesnt seem to be any kind of clauses, and all Pokemon are leveled up / down to 50. I'll test a regular link battle later to see how that works.

No level 100? hmm...That would be weird to not implement that feature. even too trollish for gamefreak. Although, I like this more now since that means that'll just become more of an option in the simulator as stated with Pokemon Online. Please continue to update this Theory.
 
HI, BIG TEXT TO HIGHLIGHT THIS POST, SINCE PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE SKIPPED OVER IT!!!
I just want to mention that while Wifi is effected by this, the simulator MIGHT be spared. I tested an IR battle between Black and White, and it doesnt actually show teams! HOWEVER, it does have a few quirks. There doesnt seem to be any kind of clauses, and all Pokemon are leveled up / down to 50. I'll test a regular link battle later to see how that works.
This method of battling sounds the most similar to what we're used to. Also, auto-leveling will be convenient, since AFAIK, there's no auto-level on WiFi. If Smogon adopts a simulator that strictly conforms to in-game limitations (which it should), this system seems like a likely new standard. Changing to level 50 instead of 100 produces a LOT of interesting changes that I'm very sure we'll all enjoy exploring! Thanks for this info Theorymon!
 
I apologize for the scrambled and inconsistent nature of my earlier post, which didn't get my feelings on this across at all. I was saying how I think it'll affect how people play, not stating that I thought it was a good change. In fact, I think the exact opposite. I'd support my opinion, but Hip said it better than I ever could.

EDIT: @Philip7086: Wow, I didn't really think about the importance of that. This means that we still might have normal, unrevealed 6v6. Thanks Theorymon!
 
HI, BIG TEXT TO HIGHLIGHT THIS POST, SINCE PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE SKIPPED OVER IT!!!

This method of battling sounds the most similar to what we're used to. Also, auto-leveling will be convenient, since AFAIK, there's no auto-level on WiFi. If Smogon adopts a simulator that strictly conforms to in-game limitations (which it should), this system seems like a likely new standard. Changing to level 50 instead of 100 produces a LOT of interesting changes that I'm very sure we'll all enjoy exploring! Thanks for this info Theorymon!

Auto leveling to 50 or 100 has always been possible on Wifi. I'm confused about what IR battling is. Initially I thought he meant local wireless but then he mentions he's going to test link battles next. ???
 
Honestly it's a really good idea. For those of you who complain about the metagame being boring this makes it interesting from the "giddey up" because you would have to predict straight out the gate unless your normal lead has sash or sturdy predicting right could get you a big advantage a 6-5 start off or free entry hazards. So, I think this will keep it fun and exciting at all times
 
Auto leveling to 50 or 100 has always been possible on Wifi. I'm confused about what IR battling is. Initially I thought he meant local wireless but then he mentions he's going to test link battles next. ???
IR is Infrared. In BW, you have the capacity to use the C-Gear (basically, an item you get shortly into the game that takes over the touch-screen that's constantly scanning for Wi-Fi/Wireless/Infrared connections and you can use to battle/trade with people over those mediums or do stuff like access the Pokemon you caught in the Dream World at any point) to instantly battle anyone with near you at any time, using Infrared, with both of you using whatever teams you happen to have at that point (of course, as mentioned, they're auto-leveled and are put at full-health and all that for the purposes of the battle).
 
Personally, I think this change to the wifi format would relieve a lot of stress in predicting so I support this change. Still, I think we will still have a nice full plate of predicting to do in move sets and what the player's reaction will be to my previous action and so on.

I do not think scouting will die. Scouting for pokemon will, because we will know the opponent's pokemon from the beginning of the match, but we will not know movesets, held items or abilities. So a lot is still left unknown. I do feel like this makes the competitive metagame slightly less difficult, but just slightly.

And for the argument against this for ability exclusion or something, I do not know the pokemon term for it. I created this scenario. You probably won't get the motor drive boost from switching to Electivire from Gyarados, but what was failed to be put into consideration is the fact that Gyarados not often be hit by a 4x super effective, generally increasing his life span, unless the truly daring were to go ahead and use the 4x super effective electric attack. Either could occur, given the circumstances, but what will happen? That is for the player to predict. This can also be an example of the luck factor in pokemon, but I think this is an acceptable amount of it.

There will also be less complaints from both sides if a person loses from a mispredict which in my opinion is a big plus. I also predict a general decrease in battle duration which would be helpful to those who do not have large amounts of time to dedicate to pokemon.
 
Level 50 eh? Sounds good to me.

Still the wifi thing is a massive disappointment. Firstly to make it so that IR and wifi battling have different rules is just retarded, how did they come to that decision?. But the fact that in order to play a game that is still pokemon as I recognise it, we have to exclude all wifi battling, is just so dumb..

Also I am editing that bit about defenders of this change out.. Its not fair.. Sorry about that.

Have a nice day.
 
I actually like this. It lessens the use of gimmick pokemon (which I hate) and will set up fun mind games if you know the pokemon your opponent has.

NOTE: I never thought this topic could inspire such an argument.
 
IR is Infrared. In BW, you have the capacity to use the C-Gear (basically, an item you get shortly into the game that takes over the touch-screen that's constantly scanning for Wi-Fi/Wireless/Infrared connections and you can use to battle/trade with people over those mediums or do stuff like access the Pokemon you caught in the Dream World at any point) to instantly battle anyone with near you at any time, using Infrared, with both of you using whatever teams you happen to have at that point (of course, as mentioned, they're auto-leveled and are put at full-health and all that for the purposes of the battle).

Oh? So there's 3 ways of battling now (infrared/wireless/Wifi)? Seems like a superfluous addition unless infrared is somehow faster than local wireless.
 
what i find amusing about the massive consternation about this change is the presumption that the people at Gamefreak care at all what happens on Shoddy. In many respects the analogy I would make is that the VCGs, or even pokemon videogame battles played at official leagues, are like the actual NFL season and Shoddy is like a fantasy football league. The rules committee of the NFL doesn't care what effect changing the 'in the grasp' ruling for QBs is going to have on your fantasy football team any more than GF worries about how 5th generation rules and pokemon will alter the Shoddy metagame.
 
I don't like this. My favourite teams to use are weather teams, and now the opponent will be able to instantly know it's a weather team. This takes out so many strategies and just makes Pokemon a less skilled game :(
 
Definitely got mixed emotions about this. What strikes it as interesting is that no one mentioned whether or not this was mandatory. I mean you have the option to name your poke shouldn't you be able to forgo the option to peak at your opp's poke?
 
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