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Eviolite
- Thread starter Garganator
- Start date
A Hippopotas carrying the Pre-Evo Stone will become an amazing Pokemon to have in UU as it sets up Sandstorm, Stealth Rocks as well as provides the team with defenses comparable to Donphan.
Oh, man, and it also gets Slack Off, which Donphan would kill for. STAB EQ, SR, Slack Off, Roar, Yawn, Toxic...Hippopotas just became an awesome UU supporter.
Meanwhile, Snover isn't that far behind defensively, and has awesome STAB Blizzards. Plus, with such low HP, it's great for SubSeed. Not to mention those great STAB Blizzards hit those Leech-immune Grass-types for SE damage. It even has Ice Shard for when something fast needs to die.
Even without Prevo Stone, Porygon 2 is still a nice Pokemon.
For the others, it's harder...
Hey, Nosepass has terrific defences with this item and under SandStorm. In NU, he can be nice (because with his unbelievable attack, he can't really threatens opponent).
Lairon too, and he has good attack. Maybe a more offensive Registeel ?
For the others, it's harder...
Hey, Nosepass has terrific defences with this item and under SandStorm. In NU, he can be nice (because with his unbelievable attack, he can't really threatens opponent).
Lairon too, and he has good attack. Maybe a more offensive Registeel ?
But it raises his defenses to a whole different level. If you may provide it for example Dual Screen support, then Pory2 is probably unbreakable without massive critical hit.
Obesity, thanks for calculations. They will help me ALOT ;).
I also wanted to check Machoke. As it is quite bulky for NFE with 80/70/60 and it isn't bad even without boosts, while Pre-Evolution Stone boosts it even further. Also unlike many NFE it has 100 base Attack to threaten some stuff with STAB DynamicPunch. I don't think that loosing 30 base Atk is worth it, however in lower tiers Machoke may be quite neat tank with more then solid base attack.
CB Earthquake Adamant Tyranitar vs Max HP (No Def EVs):
Machamp = 57.55% --> 67.71%
Stoned Machoke = 45.05% --> 53.30%
In other words Machoke may be 2OHKOed only 30% of time, while Machamp is 2OHKOed 100% of time.
Jolly Life Orb Outrage Salamence vs Max HP (No Def EVs)
Machamp = 82.03% --> 96.88% (20% of OHKO with SR up)
Stoned Machoke = 64.29% --> 75.82%
Adamant Life Orb +1 Waterfall Gyarados vs Max HP (No Def EVs)
Machamp = 85.16% --> 100.26% (41% for OHKO with SR up)
Stoned Machoke = 67.03% --> 79.12%
Maybe I'm just out of touch but I though Donphan's big draws were his high attack (Which PreStone doesn't help with), Ice Shard, and Rapid Spin, not his defenses...
Also I don't know if it's fair not to give the "evolved" poke, who are being compared to the stone poke, items. For example Leftovers adds alot of durability that Stone pokes don't have the option to get. Just saying.
Also I don't know if it's fair not to give the "evolved" poke, who are being compared to the stone poke, items. For example Leftovers adds alot of durability that Stone pokes don't have the option to get. Just saying.
Sorry for my bad English, at first...
I guess, you are missing out someone, guys. What about Piloswine? I just noticed, it would become incredibly bulky. Its typing actually really sucks defensively + it is really slow, but mentioning the negative aspects - that's it. I'll come up with some essential advantages:
1.) Not affected by hail
2.) Not affected by sandstorm
--> One of the main weaknesses of this PES is the things that go with it, i. e. not being able to hold leftovers, which is very important to avoid damage by weather effects - Piloswine is immune against BOTH of them.
3.) Thick Fat - Abating its weaknesses at least a little bit.
4.) Defence Stats: 100/80/60 - I mean, really, that are absolutely great stats. Max out HP and it has 404 - only a few pre-evolutions that really suck (except for chansey) have more HP... Depending on how u spread the EV's, it is potentially able to have more than 400 defense + being able to take special moves, as well - even if u don't chose to give it any Sp.D.-EVs, it should be able to take some attacks with ~275. It will laugh at all those physical Outrages!
5.) Attack, Base Stat: 100 - Losing the choice band option, its attack can still be considered as decent; it can hit quite hard!
6.) Typing Ice/Ground - Offensively, still one of the greatest type combinations around.
7.) Access to priority move 'Ice Shard' - That abates his lack of speed, being able to hit dragons and other creatures SE.
8.) Movepool can be used much better once it is potentially able to fulfil a defensive role in the metagame:
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Drop
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Stone Edge
- Rest
- Light Screen / Reflect
I guess, you are missing out someone, guys. What about Piloswine? I just noticed, it would become incredibly bulky. Its typing actually really sucks defensively + it is really slow, but mentioning the negative aspects - that's it. I'll come up with some essential advantages:
1.) Not affected by hail
2.) Not affected by sandstorm
--> One of the main weaknesses of this PES is the things that go with it, i. e. not being able to hold leftovers, which is very important to avoid damage by weather effects - Piloswine is immune against BOTH of them.
3.) Thick Fat - Abating its weaknesses at least a little bit.
4.) Defence Stats: 100/80/60 - I mean, really, that are absolutely great stats. Max out HP and it has 404 - only a few pre-evolutions that really suck (except for chansey) have more HP... Depending on how u spread the EV's, it is potentially able to have more than 400 defense + being able to take special moves, as well - even if u don't chose to give it any Sp.D.-EVs, it should be able to take some attacks with ~275. It will laugh at all those physical Outrages!
5.) Attack, Base Stat: 100 - Losing the choice band option, its attack can still be considered as decent; it can hit quite hard!
6.) Typing Ice/Ground - Offensively, still one of the greatest type combinations around.
7.) Access to priority move 'Ice Shard' - That abates his lack of speed, being able to hit dragons and other creatures SE.
8.) Movepool can be used much better once it is potentially able to fulfil a defensive role in the metagame:
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Drop
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Stone Edge
- Rest
- Light Screen / Reflect
Yeah, Machoke has better physical bulkyness and slighty better special bulkyness, but the loss of 30 Attack BP and no-item is very disappointing. Machamp Lead works due to Lum Berry, and most of other sets love Lefties.
I guess the best set to Machoke will be the Rest-Talk, where he can have a reliable recovery move.
For Slowpoke... No :
Globally, Slowpoke is slighty better physically but sooo worse than Slowbro specially. And he has small attacking options.
Tangela will be good no ?
The assets are very slight, especially with Lefties, but Tangela has a more reliable Leech Seed...
I guess the best set to Machoke will be the Rest-Talk, where he can have a reliable recovery move.
For Slowpoke... No :
Draco Meteor from Salamence Naive LO 252 EVs Atk Spe :
Slowpoke :93.2% - 110.2%
Slowbro : 80.7% - 95.2%
Stone Edge +2 from Infernape Jolly LO 252 Ev Atk :
Slowpoke : 39.8% - 46.9%
Slowbro : 41.6% - 49%
Slowpoke :93.2% - 110.2%
Slowbro : 80.7% - 95.2%
Stone Edge +2 from Infernape Jolly LO 252 Ev Atk :
Slowpoke : 39.8% - 46.9%
Slowbro : 41.6% - 49%
Globally, Slowpoke is slighty better physically but sooo worse than Slowbro specially. And he has small attacking options.
Tangela will be good no ?
Stone Edge from Tyranitar Bander Adamant 252 EVs Atk
Tangela : 35.9% - 42.5%
Tangrowth : 41.8% - 49.8%
DynamicPunch from Machamp Adamant 252 Evs Atk
Tangela : 23.7% - 28.1%
Tangrowth : 27.5% - 32.7%
Hydropump from Rotom-W Spec Modest 252 Evs Atk Spe
Tangela : 56.3% - 66.5%
Tangrowth : 59.4% - 70%
Tangela : 35.9% - 42.5%
Tangrowth : 41.8% - 49.8%
DynamicPunch from Machamp Adamant 252 Evs Atk
Tangela : 23.7% - 28.1%
Tangrowth : 27.5% - 32.7%
Hydropump from Rotom-W Spec Modest 252 Evs Atk Spe
Tangela : 56.3% - 66.5%
Tangrowth : 59.4% - 70%
Well I said that I would NOT choose Machoke anyway, as loosing those 30 points in attacks is too big difference to seriously consider it. However as a defensive RestTalker Machoke may work even in OU - it has bulk and fortunately recovery for this. Invest enough defense to always survive two CB Earthquakes from Tyranitar, rest invest into Attack. Machamp must invest a really massive number of EVs to secure surviving here.
Well, I never considered Slowpoke, as I saw difference in statistics between them. However I see some little use of it in future NU (or something similar). With so many Fighting types this Gen, some older ones may end in lower tiers like Primeape, Hitmonchan, Machoke, etc. giving Slowpoke quite good niche.
Honestly I don't think it's worth it, especially when Tangrowth goes with special defensive route. However in physical it may be considered... but I would still choose Tangrowth, just for Leftovers and having similar bulk to even boosted Tangela.
I think I would go a bit different route. Thanks to Thick Fat it doesn't die from random Fire Blasts from Salamence and Sazando. There may be way to play it - investing in special bulk, as you take 47.03% -> 55.69% from Life Orb Neutral Salamence's Draco Meteor and just Ice Shard it back, while easily surviving unboosted Life Orb Outrage
(and Choice Band hit), if you mispredict. It looks extremely similar with Dragonite and Flygon. Heck, you take Draco Meteor from MixQuaza (58.91% --> 69.80%) with Max HP/Max SpD Neutral Piloswine (in other words you may use Adamant) and Ice Shard it back. If you face DD or SD, the worst what may happen it to take 54.95% --> 64.85% with Max HP from Adamant SD Life Orb E-Speed and again Ice Shard is here for OHKO. Heck, the funniest thing is that you take 71.29% -> 84.16% from Adamant Choice Band Outrage Rayquaza, so Stoned Piloswine is 100% check against Rayquaza, lol. This Piloswine beats EVERY single x4 weak Dragon in game. However against Sazando and other no x4 weak ice Dragon Pokemon go with something else - it doesn't have enough power.
Extremespeed has higher priority than Ice Shard now, so you'll still lose.
According to the Gen IV damage formula, item boosts to Defense are ignored on critical hits. Damn.
With the rotom forms losing their ghost typing, I was hopeful rapidspinners would have somewhat of an easier time punishing spinblockers on the switch, but then you guys have to go and discover preevo stone dusclops. Its practically not pursuit weak with those defenses!
You switch in, when Rayquaza Swords Dances. Rayquaza may only E-Speed here. You survive and after this you Ice Shard. Rayquaza is dead, while you have 4x% HP left. Adamant boost is enough with STAB. In other words you still win.
Even steels looses against critical hits from boosted Dragon attacks, so it's part of game anyway. Strong critical hit will beat everything without x4 resist, so IMO it really doesn't matter, as critical hits also ignore Reflects/Light Screens/Cosmic Powers, not only items (and I don't think it changed this Gen). Yes, we all hate hax, but we must live with it.
I still would like to see stat calcs of this nature ran for Onix and Rhydon with the Stone, plus Sandstorm going versus common NU tier threats.
And then again for Onix and Rhyhorn with the Stone, plus Sandstorm going versus common Little Cup threats.
Another question: Does this item exist? And yes, where?
Ah sorry, didn't understand the order things were going in.
Critical hits aren't just hax anymore. Not with the new 40 BP auto-crit moves. NFEs will hate those.
Ahhh... true. Sacred Sword, Mountain Throw and Ice type one (forgot the name). So in other words GameFreak even balanced boosts provided by this item. To be honest I like the way game changed ;).
I can imagine Piloswine only loosing when he switches directly on E-Speed. And he would loose anyway even without additional priority on E-Speed, as Rayquaza is much faster. Anyway, I see potential for Piloswine here, as with Stone and SpD EVs Piloswine can handle all special Electric, x4 Ice weak and Ice type Pokemon with this, while also taking many neutral hits without problems (Zapdos, Jolteon, Glaceon, Raikou, Manectric, with some risk Borutorosu and Dankurusu, Gliscor to name few). I think that we may seriously see metagame with hundreds of viable Pokemon... I can't wait ;).
It's bulkier physically but they are roughly equal on the special side. However, Chansey cannot break Rotom-A/Gengar's subs with Ice Beam and doesn't really deter anything from switching in, so to me Blissey is still the better choice.