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Eviolite

Eh, their HP sucks but Kurumayu and Hoiiga (The Gen V bugs) actually have better defenses than their evolutions. 55/90/80 and 40/99/79 respectively. Too bad about that HP, it really is.

This is also true for the little knight-clam.

Dragonair's defenses aren't spectacular, but Shedrest is insanely useful and pure-dragon typing is fantastic, unfortunately it's defenses max out (individually) at something like 326/326/340.

Togetic is also reasonably bulky but 55 HP is pretty bad, but hey, Rotom makes it work. :/

Mantyke has a sky-high special defense stat of 558 when maxed, but the rest of his stats are incredibly lackluster.

Likewise, Tangela has a very high defense stat, unfortunately offset by the fact that Tangrowth is infinitely better anway with it's massive HP and powerful offensive stats.

Rhydon is pretty massive, with his defenses maxing out (again, individually) at 414/484/269 as opposed to Rhyperior's 434/394/229, unfortunately Rhyperior has Solid Rock which kind of offsets that, but Rhydon will be taking anything that's not SE better, and will probably rip shit up in UU.

Lickitung is really fucking cool with 384/410/410 defenses and Cloud Nine/Thick Fat, Lickilicky doesn't really have anything on that.

Bronzor is just a douchebag with 318/447/447 defenses, Bronzong's HP is only 20 points higher than that and it's defenses max out at 338/364/364

Nosepass 30 base HP is awful, falling 60 points below Probopass' when maxed, but 608/459 defenses are great, surpassing Probopass in defense by a longshot and just barely beating him in Sp.Def, he also lacks Probopass' 4x weaknesses but loses some resistances.

Gigear has the same HP and Sp.Def as Gigigear, so when equipped with the Pre-evolution stone, his defenses rise to a respectable 324/412/383, but I feel like Bronzor is a much better option here.

Slowpoke's got 384/377/294 defenses and Regenerate + Slack Off which is cool, beating Slowbro's defensive stats bar HP while his Special Defense obviously falls short of Slowking's, still worth looking into.

464/278/278 defenses on Wailmer isn't bad, but I have to wonder if it's any better than Wailord's 544/207/207

What a strange metagame this is shaping up to be. :I
 
Scicky said:
What a strange metagame this is shaping up to be. :I
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No joke. Pokémon who previously had literally no advantage over their evolutions are now significantly better in certain cases. This will be the most interesting and varied metagame ever by a longshot.

One question, is Chansey now better than Blissey?
 
Plopper said:
It's bulkier physically but they are roughly equal on the special side. However, Chansey cannot break Rotom-A/Gengar's subs with Ice Beam and doesn't really deter anything from switching in, so to me Blissey is still the better choice.
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From earlier in the thread...
 
Fizz said:
One question, is Chansey now better than Blissey?
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It depends on the team. I think Stone Chansey is the most specially defensive Pokemon in the game now (I think?), but I think Blissey is better the majority of the time, having Leftovers, Ice Beam and Flamethrower.
 
Yeah, all the defenses in the world won't help if all you can do is sit there and take 5 turns to die. So in regards to that, many final stages still surpass their evolutions since they can actually take in AND dish out damage.
 
It depends on how you want Chansey to support your team. If you want a defensive pivot that can Wishpass to your own teammates while statusing the opposition, Chansey would be a great pokemon to have. It's not like Blissey's beating Subsplit Gengar/ Calm Mind Mismagius/ Calm Mind Shanandera anyway, so the lack of damage output isn't going to be that perilous.

Other thought: Belly Drum Poliwhirl/ Magmar. They're both faster than their evolutions, and having decent bulk combined with +6 ATK is nothing to scoff at. I fear that they'll still be too weak, though...
 
Am I the only one who is loving the idea of a Roost Scyther with this stone? Scyther is incredibly bulky statwise 80/80 for both defenses and only problem he ever had was typing but now gets a free 50% def boost? A simple set of Swords Dance/X-Scissor or Counter/Aerial Ace/Roost could potentially cause so much havoc.
 
Futility said:
It depends on how you want Chansey to support your team. If you want a defensive pivot that can Wishpass to your own teammates while statusing the opposition, Chansey would be a great pokemon to have. It's not like Blissey's beating Subsplit Gengar/ Calm Mind Mismagius/ Calm Mind Shanandera anyway, so the lack of damage output isn't going to be that perilous.
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Of course remember that Chansey doesn't get leftovers so any "extra bulk" (which might not be much special defense wise) is going to be missing out on lefties.
 
Murkglow said:
Of course remember that Chansey doesn't get leftovers so any "extra bulk" (which might not be much special defense wise) is going to be missing out on lefties.
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It's not like Chansey/Blissey stick around anyway, as any special attacker that wants to actually stay and fight Blissey is an attacker that Blissey wants nothing to do with (like CM Jirachi, Subsplit Gengar, etc). More often than not, Chansey is going to send a Wish/ status move and then switch to a more appropriate counter to the impending physical attacker. Chansey doesn't have to do everything by herself, she just has to provide correct support to the rest of her team, in which case she won't be around enough for lefties to actually matter.

Something like Wish/Softboiled/Thunderwave [Toxic]/ Heal Bell could work and only need a few hits for her to do her job.

^^^ Chansey, like every other Pokemon, has a full 50% boost. The statement about the 30% boost was a mistake.
 
Lileep becomes quite good with Sandstream support as a Specially Defensive Pokemon. With Max SpD + Nature, it has 450 Special Defense, times that with the Stone, and it ends up with 675 Special Defense to go with its Max 336 HP... Plus it gets Stock Pile, Recover, Immunity to phazing moves including the secondary effects of Dragon Tail, and if it uses Storm Drain over Suction Cups, it gains a Water Immunity, now wouldn't that be useful for a Sandstream team?

A simple set of:

Lileep: @ Stone
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, - Atk)

Mirror Coat
Recover
Stock Pile
Filler / Toxic
 
I wonder: how many time Blissey will carry Lefties now that Shanderaa poses a threat?

Well, only time will tell, i guess.

Am I the only one who is loving the idea of a Roost Scyther with this stone? Scyther is incredibly bulky statwise 80/80 for both defenses and only problem he ever had was typing but now gets a free 50% def boost? A simple set of Swords Dance/X-Scissor or Counter/Aerial Ace/Roost could potentially cause so much havoc.
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Well, me as well. I'm going to use Scyther for sure this gen.
Status shuts Scyther with relative ease though.

Espeon might be a very good teammate to reflect status back.
 
M BLADE said:
Well, me as well. I'm going to use Scyther for sure this gen.
Status shuts Scyther with relative ease though.

Espeon might be a very good teammate to reflect status back.
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I think even if you don't run the new Espeon you could always sacrifice one attack on Scyther for Safeguard or Substitute.

With Roost taking away your flying weak you could actually occasionally see a Scyther Sub survive 2 hits now and again. Heck effectively between Roost and Pre-evo stone he can nerf his own 4x stone weakness down to 1.5x only.
 
I don't think "outclass" is the right word. Blissey will probably still be better and more used, but they fill different roles. Chances are, they'll both be used quite a bit.
 
Mono attacking sucks. But it's a possibility.

I think Scyther should be like this:

Scyther @ Pre Evolution Stone
EVs: 252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 6 HP for more offensive sets
252 HP/ 252 Spe/ 6 Def for more bulky sets
Nautre: Jolly
Ability: Technician (the other ones sucks)
-Swords Dance
-Roost
-Aerial Ace
-Brick Break/ Quick Attack/ Bug Bite/ Substitute/ Baton Pass
 
M BLADE said:
Mono attacking sucks. But it's a possibility.

I think Scyther should be like this:

Scyther @ Pre Evolution Stone
EVs: 252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 6 HP for more offensive sets
252 HP/ 252 Spe/ 6 Def for more bulky sets
Nautre: Jolly
Ability: Technician (the other ones sucks)
-Swords Dance
-Roost
-Aerial Ace
-Brick Break/ Quick Attack/ X-Scissor/ Substitute/ Baton Pass
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Slash bug bite over x-scissor, as x scissor is only better once you lose yur ability.
 
Futility said:
^^^ Chansey, like every other Pokemon, has a full 50% boost. The statement about the 30% boost was a mistake.
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Really? Hm.

That makes Gigear significantly better than Gigigear, and Dragonair's defenses are alot better than what I posted them as before, 326/377/393 is pretty darn good, especially with Shedrest, yay!

Barring Shedrest, Dragonair also has the Marvel Scale ability, boosting it's defense to a lovely 502 at max. It's offensive prowess compared to Dragonite is a joke, but with access to Thunderwave, Dragon Tail, and Rest, it could be a decent support pokemon.

Machoke's got a pretty beastly defensive spread of 364/393/360 that's would make him a total bitch to kill with Dynamicpunch.

Chaobuu, Pokabu's evolution, is a completely different pokemon from Emboar with this, 384/344/344 isn't the best stacked up against some of the other pokemon here, but he also has the ability to burn with Will-O-Wisp, and a 4x resistance to Ice and Fire with Thick Fat, which Emboar doesn't get.

Dotekkotsu is another cool abuser of this, with 374/443/327 defenses and a respectable 105 base attack to fire off Fighting Attacks with, not to mention Iron Fist, Guts or Encourage to boost damage even further.

Zuruggu has 15 less base HP than his evolution Zuruzukin so their defenses are pretty evened out whichever one you're using, 334/361/361 Vs. 304/393/393, Zuruzukin's probably your best bet here since he can still hold lefties or whatever you want to give him.

Fuck yeah Golbat! 354/393/410 defenses and Super Fang, Roost, Toxic, Hypnosis, Whirlwind and an above average Base Speed of 90.

Mantyke's still worth looking into, 294/327/558 defenses isn't super amazing or anything (bar that Sp.Def stat, jesus christ) but access to Boiling Water means he might be able to soak up some physical attacks, and Water Absorb can either function as a means of healing him, or just negating SR damage, though it's not completely reliable.

The dark/flying Vulture baby is ugly as hell but 344/410/377 defenses are incredibly well-rounded. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much other than Roost or Whirlwind for doing actual damage, go with Golbat.

Tesshiido, Nattorei's pre-evolution, has 60 less HP at max than Nattorei does. Sucks right? Not really, in some ways it's even a blessing, comparing their defenses, 292/464/447 Vs. 352/397/364, Teshiido's are just massive, and since he has less HP, Leech Seed will heal a higher percentage of his HP, unfortunately he trades off the ability to wield a rugged helmet or Shed Shell, 2 things that Nattorei would love to abuse.

Then there's Phanpy, who's 384/360/294 defenses are in some ways superior to his evolution. But it doesn't really warrant use either way because Donphan kinda sucks and Phanpy's 60 base attack is a joke.

Munchlax is ridiculous with 474/294/443 defenses but his most reliable forms of recovery are rest and swallow, though admittedly Stockpile boosts his already ridiculous defenses so it's not as risky as it may seem.

Piloswine has 404/426/360 defenses and if I'm not mistaken, an unresisted STAB combination coming from a respectable base 100 attack. Coupled with Thick Fat from Dream World and that's pretty nice, unfortunately he's got a very offensive minded movepool so I don't know how useful it would be.

Jigglypuff's got wish and massive HP, but it's defenses are kind of ass even with this item, neither of them top 300.

Sealeo's got 383/393/393 defenses which is pretty cool, but no 101 subs, if you don't mind that then no problem I guess.

My favorite abuser of this is probably Porygon-2 though, Trace is such an awesome ability and 374/459/478 defenses are... astounding to say the least, especially with an awesome movepool and a 105 base SpAtk stat.
 
Piloswine's STABs are definitely not unresisted. Bronzong and Surskit both resist them, and now that the Rotom forms are different types, Rotom-H, Rotom-W, and Rotom-F all resist both.
 
Ah, thanks. To be fair though, Bronzong and the Rotom form's don't technically resist it, but well... yeah. Surskit just doesn't matter.

Edit: And Surskit, Rotom-H and Rotom-F take SE from any rock move so it's an easily mitigated weakness.
 
Chaobuu, Pokabu's evolution, is a completely different pokemon from Emboar with this, 384/344/344 isn't the best stacked up against some of the other pokemon here, but he also has the ability to burn with Will-O-Wisp, and a 4x resistance to Ice and Fire with Thick Fat, which Emboar doesn't get.
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It's a shame that it doesn't have any form of recovery except Rest, as defensively it would be solid. Fire/Fighting isn't as horrible as many people make it. Especially with Thick Fat - x4 Bug Resist, x4 Fire, x4 Ice, x2 Steel, x2 Grass, x2 Dark. Few useful resistances if you ask me ;).

Piloswine has 404/426/360 defenses and if I'm not mistaken, an unresisted STAB combination coming from a respectable base 100 attack. Coupled with Thick Fat from Dream World and that's pretty nice, unfortunately he's got a very offensive minded movepool so I don't know how useful it would be.
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I explained it earlier in this thread how would I use Piloswine with this Stone. Mostly I would invest into his special bulk to check a solid number of special based Pokemon. Interesting thing is that unlike Mamoswine can switch into ALL x4 Ice Weak Dragons and OHKO them back with Ice Shard. I'll quote myself in more detail:

I think I would go a bit different route. Thanks to Thick Fat it doesn't die from random Fire Blasts from Salamence and Sazando. There may be way to play it - investing in special bulk, as you take 47.03% -> 55.69% from Life Orb Neutral Salamence's Draco Meteor and just Ice Shard it back, while easily surviving unboosted Life Orb Outrage
(and Choice Band hit), if you mispredict. It looks extremely similar with Dragonite and Flygon. Heck, you take Draco Meteor from MixQuaza (58.91% --> 69.80%) with Max HP/Max SpD Neutral Piloswine (in other words you may use Adamant) and Ice Shard it back. If you face DD or SD, the worst what may happen it to take 54.95% --> 64.85% with Max HP from Adamant SD Life Orb E-Speed and again Ice Shard is here for OHKO. Heck, the funniest thing is that you take 71.29% -> 84.16% from Adamant Choice Band Outrage Rayquaza, so Stoned Piloswine is 100% check against Rayquaza, lol. This Piloswine beats EVERY single x4 weak Dragon in game. However against Sazando (however if Sazando doesn't go Mix, you stand a chance) and other no x4 weak ice Dragon Pokemon go with something else - it doesn't have enough power.
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EDIT:

Ah, thanks. To be fair though, Bronzong and the Rotom form's don't technically resist it, but well... yeah. Surskit just doesn't matter.
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Unfortunately Stone doesn't help Surskit too much, as defensively Water/Bug has good potential and this SR weakness is bad news.
 
Continuing to look over more Pokemon, Bayleef caps at 324 HP/427 Defense/294 Special Defense with 252/252/0 EVs and a Bold or Careful nature--or flip the Defense and Special Defense, or split them. Meganium needs at least one attack now to not be moot.

Similarly, Janobii (Jaroda's second stage) gets to 324 HP/409 Defense/279 Special Defense with 252/252/0 and Bold, or flip it around. That's not nearly as impressive, though, since Jaroda actually has a unique Speed tier that it wants to make use of... but base 83 Speed still isn't bad for a tank. Could be a decent UU choice. It learns Mirror Coat and should be able to survive at least one hit from most stuff if it goes for 409 Special Defense.

Lombre becomes arguably a better pure special wall than Ludicolo with 324/204/394 at 252/0/252 and a Calm nature (as opposed to 364/176/328), plus Boiling Water helps to offset Ludicolo's base 30 more Special Attack. I do think Ludicolo still wins this one, though, since the defenses are very close and Ludicolo gets to use whatever item it feels like and/or make use of Swift Swim with base 20 more Speed. Giga Drain at its new 75 power also helps.
 
Stoned Tangela maxes:

HP 334
ATK 229
DEF 541
SpA 328
SpDef 294
SPEED 240

Tangrowth:

HP 404
ATK 328
DEF 383
SpA 350
SpDef 218
SPEED 218

Is there any reason at all to run a special attacking Tangrowth now, besides the item options? He's even a bit slower than his prevo.

Poor guy...nothing but the unpopular fat kid at Tangela High.
 
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