But the Porygon2's base stats ARE higher than those posted by Frederic before, aren't they? As shown in my calculations, its base defense stat must be 159 (159,5), for instance... am I wrong?
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Eviolite
- Thread starter Garganator
- Start date
Actually, I think P2's base stat equivalents vary depending on its EV spread - my calculation of 85/144/151 was based on 31 IVs and 0 EVs, using the formula of ((((BaseStat*2)+31+5)*1.5)-31-5)/2, which results in 144 Defense and 151 SpDef. If we give him 252 EVs, however, the formula becomes ((((BaseStat*2)+99)*1.5)-99)/2, which gives a resultant of 159 Defense and 167 SpDef, which is Arktos's result.
So P2's base Defense equivalent is somewhere between 144 and 159, depending on the investment, while his SpDef is somewhere between 151 and 167.
So P2's base Defense equivalent is somewhere between 144 and 159, depending on the investment, while his SpDef is somewhere between 151 and 167.
That's absolutely insane! :o It can't have a hold item I guess, but still!
Yeah. To find the equivalent base stat, you calculate out the final stat of the Pokemon, multiply it, then figure out what base stat would give that value with the same EVs/nature. For prevo stone, you'd be multiplying by 1.5.
A classical example is Azumarill from DPP UU.
50*2 + 252/4 + 31 +5 = 199 (stat calculation)
(199+19)*2 = 436 (nature and Huge Power)
436 - 39 = 397 (correct for nature)
397 - 5 - 31 - 252/4 = 298 (correct for EVs/IVs)
298 / 2 = 149 (final base stat)
So 252+ Azumarill has an equivalent base attack of 149. Yup, that little blue mouse has Groudon-level attack.
BTW, the equivalent base stat varies based on how many EVs you put into the stat.
Also, since prevo stone precludes the use of leftovers, I'd say you should knock 10-15 off those equivalent base stats when comparing to other Pokemon. Eg, max mixed bulk Dusclops has 40/212/212 effective base defenses. However, his inability to use leftovers means that, for comparison purposes, they're more like 40/200/200.
Every "sixtenth" hit, I'd say.
Errrrm. Critical Hits ignore Defense/Sp. Defense boosts (as in stages). I believe the PES works like Choice Band, Light Ball, Soul Dew and other boosting items: they're a direct boost to the stat, with no stages whatsoever, meaning that CHs won't ignore the item.
I'd say we should take into account that every fully-evolved pokémon has access to 6.25% more HP due to Leftovers, not the other way around.
The amount of +HP leftovers gives something is relative to how long they live, calculating it into the base stats would be stupid.
And sure, passive damage sucks but Golbat, Gligar, Porygon-2, Dusknoir, so many of these pokemon have at least some means of healing themselves. And Gligar doesn't actually care much about Sandstorm or Rocks.
Critical hits kill everything, and it's still a 40 BP move, it's not like Porygon-2 and Dusknoir are SUPER WEAK in the first place, Gligar's gonna die just cause he's 4x to one of them.
And sure, passive damage sucks but Golbat, Gligar, Porygon-2, Dusknoir, so many of these pokemon have at least some means of healing themselves. And Gligar doesn't actually care much about Sandstorm or Rocks.
Critical hits kill everything, and it's still a 40 BP move, it's not like Porygon-2 and Dusknoir are SUPER WEAK in the first place, Gligar's gonna die just cause he's 4x to one of them.
You cant exactly say "it shouldn't be running HP Fire" that is seriously silly. There are some extremely notable targets/threats of Hp Fire namely steels which is kinda the reason you'd use Zone in the first place, the remove them. Nuttre (you do KO max HP versions with SR with Scarf HP Fire), Forretress, Scizor, Genosekuto etc. Also Koing a weakened Doryuuzu and stopping its sweep could change the game.
Those are actually pretty cool. Especially considering its great resistances to some very common attacks...wow lol. Wish/Roar/Protect/Dragon Claw seems like it would work.
1. You are right. Every sixteenth, of course.
2. No, I think it has been confirmed that critical hits are based on the original base stat without item.
3. lol No difference, I guess, either way...
We don't seem to have concrete information regarding this for Gen V, but in Gen IV, defense boosts from items like Metal Powder were indeed ignored in critical hits.
exactly.. people who are saying I'm wrong, well it's my fault i did not specify that my calculations assume 31 IV, 0 EV and neutral nature. I agree with domeface that base stat equivalents changes if there are EV investments, but I will strongly hold that assuming 0 EV is the best way to arrive at a valid and accurate comparison with other pokemon, especially between pre-evos and their evolutions. Saying this, I'd claim that my original post http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3026479&postcount=249 is fairly accurate.
I agree with you. Movepool, ability and typing are very important, but what I want to focus on would be the differences between pre-evos and their corresponding evos. Virtually all evos have the same movepool, ability and typing as their evos. There are only very few exceptions. Examples: (very) bulky water Seadra vs. bulky offensive water/dragon Kingdra.
And also, don't worry. I did take into account the HP. I ranked all pre-evos based on the "statistical defenses", which is derived from the pokemon's normalized HP and defenses. Below are some helpful Smogon articles that I used.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/stats
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/normalized_stats
I would also like to add that even if some Pokemon have high defense and special defense stats with the stone, the Pokemon also needs to have atleast decent offensive stats as well or else it can't do anything to its enemies. Along with a good movepool as stated before. Something like Bronzor who may have some impressive defensive stats on both sides with the stone, is not going to do much to its enemies with a measly base 24 in both offensive stats.
Pokes with no offensive capability have lots of niches, though. How many teams devote a whole poke just to spiking, passing or weather changing and nothing else?
Zyrefrederic, using your calculations, what pokemon have higher "BST"s than their evolutions?
There are exceptions, but I didn't say ALL of them need to have it. Depending on their role, they will use whatever makes them good. However, for sweepers that were too frail before, they need some good stats overall.
Opponent Pokemon uses Taunt.
Here they are. Below are the only pre-evos with higher equivalent BST than their evos, arranged from highest to least percent difference. (I disregarded nincada>shedinja for obvious reasons.)
......................HP.......Atk......Def......SpA......SpD......Spe......(BST)
Scyther*..........70......110......129.......55.......129.......105......(598)
Scizor..............70......130......100.......55........80........65........(500)
Porygon 2*.......85.......80.......144.......105......151.......60.......(625)
Porygon Z.........85.......80.......70........135......75.........90.......(535)
Dusclops*.........40.......70.......204.......60........204.......25.......(603)
Dusknoir...........45......100.......135.......65.......135........45.......(525)
Rhydon*..........105......130......189.......45........76.........40.......(585)
Rhyperior.........115......140......130.......55........55.........40.......(535)
Magmar*..........65.......95........95.......100.......136........93.......(584)
Magmortar........75.......95........67.......125........95.........83.......(540)
Electabuzz*......65.......83........95........95........136.......105......(579)
Electivire..........75.......123.......67........95........85.........95.......(540)
Misdreavus*......60.......60........99........85........136........85.......(525)
Mismagius.........60.......60........60........105.......105......105.......(495)
Magneton*.......50.......60........151......120.......114........70.......(565)
Magnezone.......70.......70........115......130........90.........60.......(535)
Gigear*............60.......80........152......70.........136........50.......(548)
Gigigear............60......100.......115......70..........85.........90......(520)
Gligar*.............65......75.........167......35.........106........85.......(533)
Gliscor.............75.......95........125......45..........75.........95.......(510)
Lairon*............60.......90........219......50..........84.........40.......(543)
Aggron............70.......110.......180......60..........60.........50.......(530)
Golbat*...........75.......80.........114......65.........121........90.......(545)
Crobat.............85.......90.........80.......70..........80........130......(535)
Piloswine*.......100......100.......129.......60..........99.........50......(538)
Mamoswine......110......130.......80........70..........60.........80......(530)
Gloom*............60........65.......114........85.........121........40......(485)
Vileplume.........75........80........85........100.........90.........50......(480)
Bellossom.........75........80........85........90.........100.........50......(480)
Graveler*.........55........95.......182........45.........76..........35......(488)
Golem..............80.......110......130........55..........65.........45......(485)
Sneasel*.........55........95........92.........35.........121........115......(513)
Weavile...........70........120.......65.........45.........85.........125......(510)
Scyther*..........70......110......129.......55.......129.......105......(598)
Scizor..............70......130......100.......55........80........65........(500)
Porygon 2*.......85.......80.......144.......105......151.......60.......(625)
Porygon Z.........85.......80.......70........135......75.........90.......(535)
Dusclops*.........40.......70.......204.......60........204.......25.......(603)
Dusknoir...........45......100.......135.......65.......135........45.......(525)
Rhydon*..........105......130......189.......45........76.........40.......(585)
Rhyperior.........115......140......130.......55........55.........40.......(535)
Magmar*..........65.......95........95.......100.......136........93.......(584)
Magmortar........75.......95........67.......125........95.........83.......(540)
Electabuzz*......65.......83........95........95........136.......105......(579)
Electivire..........75.......123.......67........95........85.........95.......(540)
Misdreavus*......60.......60........99........85........136........85.......(525)
Mismagius.........60.......60........60........105.......105......105.......(495)
Magneton*.......50.......60........151......120.......114........70.......(565)
Magnezone.......70.......70........115......130........90.........60.......(535)
Gigear*............60.......80........152......70.........136........50.......(548)
Gigigear............60......100.......115......70..........85.........90......(520)
Gligar*.............65......75.........167......35.........106........85.......(533)
Gliscor.............75.......95........125......45..........75.........95.......(510)
Lairon*............60.......90........219......50..........84.........40.......(543)
Aggron............70.......110.......180......60..........60.........50.......(530)
Golbat*...........75.......80.........114......65.........121........90.......(545)
Crobat.............85.......90.........80.......70..........80........130......(535)
Piloswine*.......100......100.......129.......60..........99.........50......(538)
Mamoswine......110......130.......80........70..........60.........80......(530)
Gloom*............60........65.......114........85.........121........40......(485)
Vileplume.........75........80........85........100.........90.........50......(480)
Bellossom.........75........80........85........90.........100.........50......(480)
Graveler*.........55........95.......182........45.........76..........35......(488)
Golem..............80.......110......130........55..........65.........45......(485)
Sneasel*.........55........95........92.........35.........121........115......(513)
Weavile...........70........120.......65.........45.........85.........125......(510)
It is interesting to note that:
- Some of these pre-evos are somewhat capable pokemon themselves and are usually used as classic examples of pokemon that got unnecessary evolutions (scyther, porygon 2, dusclops, rhydon, etc).
- Chansey did not make the cut. Even if it is one of the best user of the move statistically, it has 17 lower BST than Blissey.
- Almost all of them (except Gloom, Graveler and Gigear) are pokemon that got evolutions at a later Gen. Only Gigear qualifies from Gen V.
trainer predicts taunt and switches to mirror coat Espeon/Mischevious Heart Erufuun.
Thanks for doing that, as it brought my attention to Gigear. I don't know what gigigear is going to be used for, but gigear trades worse sweeper stats for unambiguously better defenses. They even have the same special attack. Any non sweeper gigigear movesets would probably work just better on gigear. I see the two being in the same tier (though at a quick glance, that tier will probably be NU until another game with move tutors comes out).
Also Bronzor whit Evolution Stone is better than Bronzong.
