Eviolite

[CPU]

Better HP and Special Attack are really all.

Plus a slightly more diverse movepool.

 

[Murkglow]

besides the item options?

Of course you're "excluding" the most important part...

 

[Arktos]

Definetely worth taking a closer look at Lileep!

Defense Stat Max: 336/417/450

- It does have a realiable recovery move: Recover
- It resists Sandstorm (Special Defense max during storm: 675)
- It has access to Stealth Rock, Toxic
- Acceptable Special attack (max 243), good special movepool
- Access to Swords Dance, Curse and TERRIFIC physical movepool - inspite of low attack, these moves could work (in UU), considering how bulky Lileep actually is.
​

 

[Rhys DeAnno]

Can unformed Rotom be Stoned to become a spin blocking beast very similar to his old formes, or do formes not count as an evolution? If Rotom can pick up that +1/+1 it could be a much faster, more aggressive alternative to running Dusclops as a spin blocker, not to mention just being an all around good tank.

 

[Scythemantis]

I'm certain Rotom formes aren't evolutions.

I'm also intrigued by Hoiiga, the middle-stage centipede. 284/489/423 that can pass agilities or lay down spikes/toxic spikes could be great in lower tiers.

 

[Garganator]

I'm also intrigued by Hoiiga, the middle-stage centipede. 284/489/423 that can pass agilities or lay down spikes/toxic spikes could be great in lower tiers.

Only this base 40 hp is kinda bad, as otherwise it looks good though. Poison/Bug is solid typing for spiker, mainly this nice x4 fighting resistance. However in lower tiers may be ok, especially with Wish support.

And I think no one mentioned Shelgon yet. 334/492/204 is solid, if you want to invest Max HP/Max Def EVs (you may go being more specially bulky though). Well, Shelgon has access to reliable recovery in Wish, while gaining ability Dust-Proof (ignores weather damage from hail and sandstorm), which makes it solid enough wall. Some damage calculations with Max HP/Max Def Impish Shelgon.

Choice Band Adamant Stone Edge Rhyperior
40.72% --> 48.50% (only 6% to 2HKO)

Choice Band Jolly Double-Edge Tauros
38.62% --> 45.81%

Choice Band Flare Blitz Adamant Arcanine
20.66% --> 24.25%

Swords Dance Life Orb Waterfall Under Rain Adamant Kabutops
36.83% --> 43.11%

Swords Dance Life Orb Stone Edge Adamant Kabutops
61.38% --> 72.75%

Flame Orbed Brave Bird Jolly Swellow
31.74% --> 37.72%

Rock Polish Life Orb Adamant Earthquake Torterra
29.94% --> 35.33%

Swords Dance Life Orb Jolly Return Venusaur
30.54% --> 35.93%

 

[Pratty]

I'm now seriously considering using Mantyke.

Mewtwo's Thunderbolt only barely OHKOs at 111.6% - 132%. 277 Special Attack is the minimum required to OHKO it with a STAB Thunderbolt with Choice Specs without Stealth Rock. Salamence's Draco Meteor only does 38.1% - 45.2%. Dunno if it'll be OU, but it seems like it could be the Blissey of UU.

It also gets Boiling Water for a 30% burn on physical mons. Boiling Water/Rest/Sleep Talk/Filler, anyone?

Too bad it didn't get Roost...

 

[Ryanide]

What about trapinch? Could this warrent him being used over Dugtrio? In the (un)likely event that shadow tag shanderaa is banned?

 

[Rolf]

I'm a big proponent of using Erufunn's prevo for Mischevious Heart SubSeeding fun, especially with this stone. The loss of Lefties is worth it for 221/360/298 defenses. Think about it. Against a Blissey with 714 HP, you're getting 89 HP back per turn - that's a whopping 40% of your HP - while still having pretty dang great defenses. Even vs. frail sweepers you're getting quite a lot of HP back. Even a min HP Ninjask will be giving you 18.5% of your HP back per turn, and you have a priority Substitute, along with pretty great defenses!

And for the record, a 4 HP min Def prevo stone Scyther's Subs aren't broken by a current standard Registeel's Iron Head if I calced correctly. Wow.

 

[Ryanide]

Yeah I was thinking Erufuun's prevo would work nicely with this, but I won't be using it since Erufuun is just cooler.

It's probably been said before, but Magneton would really appreciate this item. It's naturally got faster speed than Magnezone, and passable offenses.

 

[Erionn]

Another question: Does this item exist? And yes, where?

Never saw this answered. You get it from someone in a building in Hiun City. Hell if I remember which person it was.

 

[Not Scicky]

You could even go for no HP IV's and hit 190 if you wanted to, honestly I'd say Monmen is totally worth a shot even without Prevo stone, the amount of HP it gains from Leech Seed is great and if stuff like Ninjask is even giving you like 20% of your HP back, then with leftovers it's subs would literally be like, literally impossible to break, he can also encore stuff.

 

[zyrefredric]

Since the BW research thread has confirmed that the Pre-Evolution Stone grants a 1.5x boost to Defense and SpDef of any not-fully-evolved Pokemon holding it, I decided to mess with Stat calculations and Normalized Base Stats to identify who are the best users of the item. So basically the stats were calculated, multiplied by 1.5, then the equivalent base stat was derived. Below are the top 10 pre-evos with the highest average statistical defenses:

Hide

......................HP........Atk.......Def.......SpA.......SpD.......Spe.......BST

Chansey*.........255.......5..........16........35.........166.......50.........523
Blissey.............255.......10.........10........75........135........55.........540

Rhydon*...........105.......130.......189.......45........76.........40.........585
Rhyperior..........115.......140.......130.......55........55.........40.........535

Porygon 2* ......85.........80.........144......105.......151.......60.........625
Porygon Z.........85.........80........70........135.......75.........90.........535

Dusclops*.........40.........70........204.......60........204........25........603
Dusknoir...........45.........100.......135.......65........135........45........525

Piloswine*........100.......100.......129.......60.........99.........50.........538
Mamoswine ......110.......130.......80........70.........60.........80.........530
.
Lickitung*........90.........55.........121......60.........121........30.........478
Lickilicky..........110........85........95........80.........95..........50.........515

Lairon *............60.........90........219.......50.........84..........40........543
Aggron.............70........110.......180.......60.........60..........50........530

Togetic*..........55.........40........136.......80.........166.........40........518
Togekiss...........85........50.........95.......120.........115........80........545

Sealeo*...........90.........60........114.......75..........114........45........498
Walrein............110........80........90........95..........90..........65........530

Metang*..........60.........75........159.......55..........129........50.........528
Metagross........80.........135.......130......95...........90.........70.........600

See that some pre-evos with this stone have ridiculously high equivalent Base Stat Totals. Examples are Porygon 2 (625), Dusknoir (602), Scyther (598), Rhydon (585.5), Magmar (584), Electabuzz (579) and Magneton (565).

• The first two have higher BST's than legendaries, most of which have only 600 BST. (such as: Mew, Jirachi, etc; Dragonite, Tyranitar, etc; Darkrai, Cressellia, Deoxys, etc).
• The first five examples I gave have higher BST than the elemental birds, dogs, regis and pixies.
• All seven examples have higher BST than Arcanine, who previously had the highest BST of a non-"legendary" pokemon at 555.

I definitely look forward to using this item! It's a welcome boon to stall, what with all the new hard-hitting pokemon around.

I don't think it's broken though. About only 37.9% of all pre-evos can hold this item and be more defensively capable than their evos, and only 17 pre-evos would have an equivalent BST higher than their evos.

Actually, I think P2's base stat equivalents vary depending on its EV spread - my calculation of 85/144/151 was based on 31 IVs and 0 EVs, using the formula of ((((BaseStat*2)+31+5)*1.5)-31-5)/2, which results in 144 Defense and 151 SpDef. If we give him 252 EVs, however, the formula becomes ((((BaseStat*2)+99)*1.5)-99)/2, which gives a resultant of 159 Defense and 167 SpDef, which is Arktos's result.

So P2's base Defense equivalent is somewhere between 144 and 159, depending on the investment, while his SpDef is somewhere between 151 and 167.

exactly.. people who are saying I'm wrong, well it's my fault i did not specify that my calculations assume 31 IV, 0 EV and neutral nature. I agree with domeface that base stat equivalents changes if there are EV investments, but I will strongly hold that assuming 0 EV is the best way to arrive at a valid and accurate comparison with other pokemon, especially between pre-evos and their evolutions. Saying this, I'd claim that this post is fairly accurate.

Furthermore, there is no sense in claiming "Best stats = Best user" - first of all, you have to really consider the movepool, the ability, the weaks/resistances and all what goes with it - and secondly, if you chose to do some calcs to see who profits most, you actually have to emphasize the HP more than the defenses, since BOTH defenses rely on the HP.

I agree with you. Movepool, ability and typing are very important, but what I want to focus on would be the differences between pre-evos and their corresponding evos. Virtually all evos have the same movepool, ability and typing as their evos. There are only very few exceptions. Examples: (very) bulky water Seadra vs. bulky offensive water/dragon Kingdra.

And also, don't worry. I did take into account the HP. I ranked all pre-evos based on the "statistical defenses", which is derived from the pokemon's normalized HP and defenses. Below are some helpful Smogon articles that I used.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/stats
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/normalized_stats

Zyrefrederic, using your calculations, what pokemon have higher "BST"s than their evolutions?

Here they are. Below are the only pre-evos with higher equivalent BST than their evos, arranged from highest to least percent difference. (I disregarded nincada and shedinja for obvious reasons.)

Hide

......................HP.......Atk......Def......SpA......SpD......Spe......(BST)

Scyther*..........70......110......129.......55.......129.......105......(598)
Scizor..............70......130......100.......55........80........65........(500)

Porygon 2*.......85.......80.......144.......105......151.......60.......(625)
Porygon Z.........85.......80.......70........135......75.........90.......(535)

Dusclops*.........40.......70.......204.......60........204.......25.......(603)
Dusknoir...........45......100.......135.......65.......135........45.......(525)

Rhydon*..........105......130......189.......45........76.........40.......(585)
Rhyperior.........115......140......130.......55........55.........40.......(535)

Magmar*..........65.......95........95.......100.......136........93.......(584)
Magmortar........75.......95........67.......125........95.........83.......(540)

Electabuzz*......65.......83........95........95........136.......105......(579)
Electivire..........75.......123.......67........95........85.........95.......(540)

Misdreavus*......60.......60........99........85........136........85.......(525)
Mismagius.........60.......60........60........105.......105......105.......(495)

Magneton*.......50.......60........151......120.......114........70.......(565)
Magnezone.......70.......70........115......130........90.........60.......(535)

Gigear*............60.......80........152......70.........136........50.......(548)
Gigigear............60......100.......115......70..........85.........90......(520)

Gligar*.............65......75.........167......35.........106........85.......(533)
Gliscor.............75.......95........125......45..........75.........95.......(510)

Lairon*............60.......90........219......50..........84.........40.......(543)
Aggron............70.......110.......180......60..........60.........50.......(530)

Golbat*...........75.......80.........114......65.........121........90.......(545)
Crobat.............85.......90.........80.......70..........80........130......(535)

Piloswine*.......100......100.......129.......60..........99.........50......(538)
Mamoswine......110......130.......80........70..........60.........80......(530)

Gloom*............60........65.......114........85.........121........40......(485)
Vileplume.........75........80........85........100.........90.........50......(480)
Bellossom.........75........80........85........90.........100.........50......(480)

Graveler*.........55........95.......182........45.........76..........35......(488)
Golem..............80.......110......130........55..........65.........45......(485)

Sneasel*.........55........95........92.........35.........121........115......(513)
Weavile...........70........120.......65.........45.........85.........125......(510)

It is interesting to note that:

• Some of these pre-evos are somewhat capable pokemon themselves and are usually used as classic examples of pokemon that got unnecessary evolutions (scyther, porygon 2, dusclops, rhydon, etc).
• Chansey did not make the cut. Even if it is one of the best user of the move statistically, it has 17 lower BST than Blissey.
• Almost all of them (except Gloom, Graveler and Gigear) are pokemon that got evolutions at a later Gen. Only Gigear qualifies from Gen V.

 

[Maverick Hunter]

there is something wrong about your calculation.

The calculation of the new base stats shoud be: Base stat * 1.5

Chansey defense, for example: 5 * 1.5 = 7.5
Dusclops both defenses: 130 * 1.5 = 195

 

[Thorhammer]

there is something wrong about your calculation.

The calculation of the new base stats shoud be: Base stat * 1.5

Chansey defense, for example: 5 * 1.5 = 7.5
Dusclops both defenses: 130 * 1.5 = 195

The item doesn't multiply base stats.

 

[Arktos]

Maverick, this is not proportional, check it!

Defense, Dusclops, Base: 130
Defense, Dusclops-PES, Base: 195
195 in Total Stat.: 489

Defense, Dusclops, Total: 359
Defense, Dusclops-PES, Total: 538
538 in Base Stat: 219

So, you are both wrong.

In fact, all your calculations are completely wrong, Frederic. Don't know how you messed them up. If i am incorrect, I have to apologize, of course.

Furthermore, there is no sense in claiming "Best stats = Best user" - first of all, you have to really consider the movepool, the ability, the weaks/resistances and all what goes with it - and secondly, if you chose to do some calcs to see who profits most, you actually have to emphasize the HP more than the defenses, since BOTH defenses rely on the HP.

 

[Tortured_Soul]

- Lairon 60/90/210/50/75/40 (70/110/180/60/60/50 @ Aggron)

Edit: Ho hum, Mario With Lasers. I was doubling for some reason... =/

+Def Nature 252/252 = 324/624/204 , correct?

w/ Sandstorm, can I assume it then stacks on top of that, becoming 408 SpD?

Lairon @ Pre-Evolution Stone
Sassy
252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpD
Heavy Metal / Sturdy
-Roar / Protect
-Toxic
-Heavy Bomber / Iron Head
-Stealth Rock

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Lairon gets Base 280 Defense...

...Read the post above yours. Lairon has 416 max Defense, with 252 EVs and a beneficial nature. With the Pre-Evolution Stone, it has 624. A 234 Base Defense pokémon would have 623 max with the same EVs/Nature.


This item seems to be interesting, but loss of Leftovers/Life Orb will suck to quite a number of those pokémon. Golbat seems to be a good user of the Stone, at least.

 

[domeface]

Wow, with the stone Porygon2 has the equivalent of 85/144/151 defenses... That's better than Defense Deoxys, and better physically than Hippowdon, who has the downside of much weaker SpD. Very nice...

 

[Arktos]

Funny to see how people don't care about other people's posts and keep on posting some nonsense themselves - incredible. Also ridiculous how one idiot, me, desperately tries to correct all the people, since he has got nothing better to do right now... ^^

Once again: The stats posted by Frederic are wrong.

Porygon2's base stats are even higher: 85/159/167

Nevertheless, people overestimate the power of some pre-evolutions significantly, imo.

1.) Critical hits (every tenth hit) ignore the stat boost offered by PES - so they will be deadly. Evolutions can generally take those crits much better. Moreover, they fear those new moves 'Mountain Storm' and 'Ice Breath'
2.) If these kind of pokemon are overused, and I guess this will be the case for some of them, at least at the beginning, one gets to see moves like 'knock off' more often again. But as an experienced battler, one can antipizipate these actions, so that's not a big deal.
3.) Most of the pokemon hyped here lack a resistance against hail and sandstorm - especially the latter one will be absolutely deadly - you WILL see how useful Leftovers actually are. Sandstorm combined with Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock and PES-Pokemon will face a quick death and can be considered as absolutely useless, including Porygon2.
4.) When calculating those base stats, it might be useful, at least for the majority of pokemon, to subtract 6% of all defense stats, too, since this is the amount of HP Leftovers give you back.
5.) Most of the pokemon have a fairly poor attack / special attack and only fulfil a specific counter/stall role.

I can see a major potential for some of them, definetely, even in OU. Maybe Monmen stands a good chance, but I'm not too sure.
Porygon2 is really nice and has its niche, but on the other hand - it only fulfils this specific counter role mentioned. Without a STAB move and a really good special attack, any pokemon that resist IB or whatever can finally be switched in and set up. Moreover, being affected by sandstorm whilst being unable to hold Leftovers, will be a huge disadvantage for such a 'counter-only pokemon'...

 

[Ndota]

Arktos, the funny thing is that you are also incorrect yourself.
The 1.5 boost from the pre-evolution stone is not calculated and multiplied with the base stats of a Pokemon. It is multiplied with the actual stats of whatever level the Pokemon is.
Bolded, just so everyone can see and know the facts about how this item works.

 

[Garganator]

1.) Critical hits (every tenth hit) ignore the stat boost offered by PES - so they will be deadly. Evolutions can generally take those crits much better. Moreover, they fear those new moves 'Mountain Storm' and 'Ice Breath'

Well, critical hits are part of game. +1 Salamence will break through most steels when Outrage hits for critical damage. So really strong critical hit most of time will take down Pokemon, even when resisted (except x4 resistance). However yeah, Mountain Storm and Ice Breath are problems.

2.) If these kind of pokemon are overused, and I guess this will be the case for some of them, at least at the beginning, one gets to see moves like 'knock off' more often again. But as an experienced battler, one can antipizipate these actions, so that's not a big deal.

I don't remember anyone saying "This is gonna OU for sure !" except few ones like Porygon2, Dusclops and maybe Munchlax, Golbat and Gligar (in case of last 3 this maybe is quite strong). And most of those examples were for lower tiers, as I think some of them may really find few niche and some of those ideas are interesting. But most of them in lower tiers, like many people mentioned IMO. But I'm sure that some of them will be totally niche, so in some cases you may be right ;).

I don't say that you don't make good points, because they are solid. But they were mentioned earlier more then few times by other people.

3.) Most of the pokemon hyped here lack a resistance against hail and sandstorm - especially the latter one will be absolutely deadly - you WILL see how useful Leftovers actually are. Sandstorm combined with Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock and PES-Pokemon will face a quick death and can be considered as absolutely useless, including Porygon2.

True, however many of them has access to good healing move (Golbat, Chansey, etc.) making this Leftovers loss a bit less painful. And if you face Toxic Spikes (especially two layers) even good Leftovers walls can't handle them, if they're not immune to them (however they may live few turns more). But yeah, in some cases this additional Sandstorm/Hail damage may be extremely crucial, but remember, boost is huge (50%) so there must be some flaws. And weather weakness is one of them. But seriously it turns some Pokemon into interesting options. Maybe hype in some moments a bit too strong, however when you see how something like Porygon2 or Dusclops can handle hits, then you may be positively surprised.

4.) When calculating those base stats, it might be useful, at least for the majority of pokemon, to subtract 6% of all defense stats, too, since this is the amount of HP Leftovers give you back.

Well, in case of Chansey it's perfect example (I mentioned this) as in long run Blissey takes special hits better then Chansey thanks to those little Leftovers. But yeah, you must always count those Leftovers.

5.) Most of the pokemon have a fairly poor attack / special attack and only fulfil a specific counter/stall role.

And here I must say, that I see... nothing wrong with this. IMO if one Pokemon is great at one thing then it's better then good Pokemon in everything. You build a team around all 6 of them, and each one of them must fill their niche to compliment each other. If you need this one exact niche, then why not use this one certain Pokemon. True, most of them will be used on really defensive teams, however if you like to play for example stall (for example I like it) then you may love this much higher diversity in choices. Even if one certain Pokemon fill certainly small niche. As long as they're viable then it's really fine.

Porygon2 is really nice and has its niche, but on the other hand - it only fulfils this specific counter role mentioned. Without a STAB move and a really good special attack, any pokemon that resist IB or whatever can finally be switched in and set up. Moreover, being affected by sandstorm whilst being unable to hold Leftovers, will be a huge disadvantage for such a 'counter-only pokemon'...

But you may say, that this niche may be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. Just look at those physical attackers - Salamence, Garchomp, Ononokusu, Dragonite, Rayquaza, Groudon... it's really hard to find good checks for all of them at once and Porygon2 may pretty much cover all of them, while having access to reliable recovery unlike something like Cresselia. I can easily imagine them dominate metagame (for example for 6x% of usage), so something like Porygon2 may be more usefull then we all think. True, it won't fit every single kind of team, however IMO his usefulness will be really good. But yeah, it really depends how metagame will shift, but with all those offensive behemots he may be a really important anti-metagame Pokemon.

 

[Arktos]

@Garganator: I just summed up some things... But yes, you are absolutely right. Those niches can be very crucial - just wanted to stress that there are very significant cons of holding the stone that are easily overlooked... A good staller should be immune to weather effects, imo, in case it doesn't possess some nice recovery move like Recover/Roost/Leech Seed (Golbat and Porygon2 do) - the other Pokemon mentioned here may find some usage in UU... Scyther is something in-between and may be an exception (+Munchlax). But on the other hand, no recovery move, no resistance against hail/SS + x4-weakness to SR is horrible and too significant.
Greatest potential in my humble opinion: Porygon2, Rhydon, Piloswine, Monmen, Munchlax, Dusclops and Golbat... Still think Lileep, especially in a sandstorm team, can be absolutely annoying and has some potential, too. It also has access to recover...
The other ones mentioned in this thread (though I might overlooked some) have UU- or max. BL-potential. Lairon may have an extraordinary defense, but that's about it... outclassed by many stallers. All those leechers are outclassed by Monmen. Sealeo can be only used in hail effectively...

@Ndota

Exactly the opposite is true! And again an example for someone not reading my posts properly :P Look at my calculations - I never calculated Base Stat x1.5, in fact, I even told Maverick, the boost refers to the Total Stat., stating Total Stat and Base Stat don't have a proportional correlation.

 

[Ndota]

@Ndota

Exactly the opposite is true! And again an example for someone not reading my posts properly :P Look at my calculations - I never calculated Base Stat x1.5, in fact, I even told Maverick, the boost refers to the Total Stat., stating Total Stat and Base Stat don't have a proportional correlation.

Well, if you know what you're talking about then whatever, its ok. But in your post from before, I saw nothing of the like about the pre-evolution stone not being calculated with base stats. You said something about the Porygon2's base stats being higher, which is incorrect, unless you were quoting him. You just didn't state it so I assumed you did not know. Since you know about it, then its fine.

Anyway, I just wanted everyone to see and know the facts about the pre-evolution stone.

 

[Scarf-Ditto]

Magneton @ 252 Sp. EVs, 252 Def EVs
Stats (Without Pre-Stone): 241/156/289/336/179/179
Stats (Including Pre-Stone): 241/156/433.5/336/268.5/179

Compared to...

Magnezone @ 252 Sp. EVs, 252 Def EVs
Stats: 281/176/329/359/216/156

I'm no good with running calculations, but Magneton trades 40 HP, 20 Attack, and 23 Sp. Attack for a whopping 104.5 Defense and 42.5 Sp. Defense. Perhaps Magneton will see increased use over his evolved bretheren.