I have a quick question.
How are we going to deal with multiple suspects being banned / nominated at once, with people voting based on assumptions about the other suspects?
For example, say both Manaphy and Politoed get nominated. Based on some of the posts I've been reading in the other thread, it isn't uncommon for people to use the "well once X isn't around to check Y anymore, Y will be an issue so let's just ban it now." If both are on the chopping block, and everyone votes Manaphy Uber on the assumption that Poli is staying (but then Poli ends up going), it's been a mistake.
Additionally, the removal of a few of these suspects alone has the potential to make the metagame significantly different. Getting rid of Latios, Dory, and Shaymin-S alone makes the metagame just a bit less fighting-centric, the speed tiers shift, Grass-types (Jaroda, Sceptile, Shaymin-L, Celebi) rise to take the latter's place, etc. Suddenly, Manaphy isn't looking so threatening with Grass-types rising to the top and the bulky Latias showing her face every now and then. It might be a completely different environment, and it's why suspects were generally tested in isolation, at least initially, last gen (despite the problems that particular system had).
Just a thought. Anyways, my nominations / opinions:
-Inconsistent: This is simply uncompetetive, and I support its banning for that reason alone. I mean it is statistically proven that for Double Team to be worth it, the opponent has to miss twice. In other words, the better player will generally win. It's those times when the worse player wins on that small chance alone that makes Evasion in general an uncompetetive strategy, and we comfortably ban that. Additionally, all of the users of Inconsistent have alternative abilities, so banning the ability is a simpler course of action.
Verdict: Uber
-Sleep Moves: Let's be real here, Darkrai isn't the issue. What so many people have highlighted is that sleep has become an even better status condition that FRZ thanks to the upgrade it received this generation. Unless you are ResTalk Shuffle Gyara/Milotic, who's strategies rely on sleep, you are essentially crippled for the rest of the match, useful as nothing more than death fodder. Base 135 SpA + boosting move isn't really anything special this gen, especially when your main attacking option is a mere 80 BP. Sleep kept Darkrai out of OU last gen, it nearly saw Venusaur pushed out of UU because of it, and it gave Breloom what was basically its only niche (SubPunch + Spore would have been nothing special without the ability to force a guaranteed sleep). It was good then, and it's even better now.
Verdict: Uber
-Deoxys-A: I'm not going to overhype it like everyone else has. What I am going to say is that despite its issues, it still manages to easily remove 1-2 pokemon from the game on a regular basis. It's offensive stats are really just too extreme for anything other than Jirachi / Meta / Bronzong / Spiritomb / Obscure Pokemon to handle, and the fact that this select group is the only thing standing in its way makes it the perfect lure for them.
Verdict: Uber
-Deoxys-N: I haven't dealt with this one enough to decide. However, it is 60 points weaker statistically than its offensive counterpart, and the additional bulk won't be useful for anything more than taking a bit more priority.
Verdict: Undecided.
-Deoxys-S: Uber last gen, OU this gen, IMO. Everyone was fine with its cleaner / offensive sets early on, and it wasn't until the lead set came around that it became an issue. It has much more competition as a hazard layer this gen, and the game is less focused on hazards comparatively speaking, lessening its importance as a pokemon. There are better counters to it, spinning is arguably easier with the Rotom formes' loss of ghost-typing / ubiquity, and there are several pokemon that really just don't care about hazards regardless. It checks a fair amount of pokemon with its decent stats and excellent movepool, but it isn't really overpowered.
Verdict: OU
-Deoxys-D: It was suspect last gen, and people have caught on that it isn't anything special this time around. 50 / 160 / 160 is nice and all, but it lacks the resistances to abuse them and finds itself susceptible to being overpowered. Its support movepool is incredible, yes, but then it can only realistically run 2 support moves at a time (since it will won't want to be Taunt bait), and faces competition from more useful pokemon like Nattorei. I'm not concerned with it at least for now.
Verdict: OU
-Shaymin-S: I've always been a huge proponent of this pokemon, right from the start. People have always (for whatever reason) dismissed grass as a shitty typing and, offensively speaking, it has been. Traditionally, defense is where it shines. However, Shaymin-S does it just a bit too well because it has access to flying-STAB as a backup, and otherwise has just enough moves to scrape together a Scarf, Specs, LO, or Subseed set - and do it well. The power is what distinguishes it from Jirachi, as the side effects of Jirachi's moves are, while annoying, not directly connected to the power of the attacks themselves. A little burn or flinchhax here and there isn't so bad, because Heatran can still stay in and counter it so long as that one Fire Blast breaks through. If Serene Grace gets the SpD drop on Nattorei (an otherwise perfect counter), Air Slash will finish it off and it is over. The speed is what distinguishes it from Togekiss, and superior typing. Kiss has to waste a slot ThunderWaving if it wants to flinch anything, Skymin does not. It has more resistances to come on with its decent bulk, and is fast enough to where it doesn't worry about a stray Stone Edge or Outrage coming its way - if it does, then you know its a scarf set and can deal accordingly. And with Sceptile and Shaymin-L still being perfectly viable alternatives, as well as the new Nattorei and eventually Perversity Jaroda, we won't be lacking in the grass-type offense department. I hate to see it go, but I won't mind the game it leaves behind.
Verdict: Uber
-Latios: This one I honestly do not think is Uber, and I have a few reasons. The first issue usually addressed is strength, so I'll start with that. The closest comparison to it is, obviously, Sazandora. The Specs sets have an almost equal power output, with Sazandora winning out due to Latios being essentially forced to run Timid nature. Sazandora has equal or more powerful versions of Latios' every move, with the exceptions of Psychic and Trick, for which it answers with Dark Pulse and U-Turn. Despite the speed difference, the sets play largely the same as far as early- and mid-game are concerned: get in, nuke something, switch out. Sazandora does this arguably better with its similar overall bulk and resistances and more powerful fire moves, not to mention U-Turn. Late-game is where they differ, as SpecsLatios will more easily sweep with Dragon Pulse. The thing is, what pokemon ISN'T sweeping late-game when you've already gone to the trouble of removing their counters? I believe the two are similar enough so that if Sazzy is manageable, so is Latios (and I've dealt with both just fine up to this point).
Verdict: OU
-Manaphy: This is a tricky one. It is difficult to determine the culprit behind Manaphy's power, which is either the Rain or its own individual characteristics. Looking at Manaphy, I see a Water-typed, special version of Garchomp. It hits a similar stat after the TG boost and has great coverage combined with bulk. However, I find that Manaphy can still be easily overwhelmed in this metagame. HydraRest sets are running either Water + Ice coverage or Water + Grass coverage; we already know the problems each on has. So long as you have 1 pokemon that resists each and is strong enough to take it on, it isn't too bad. Manaphy can only Rest for so long, and the match will end either when a critical hit strikes or when Manaphy chooses offense over defense, usually the latter in my experience. When it does, you outspeed its average 328 speed and finish it off. TG + 3 Attacks doesn't face the coverage issue, but is less resilient. CM versions can take the special hits, but are physically vulnerable. Even if Latios and Skymin go, we have the options of Drought (coming in on a Rest is still viable, folks, just like in Ubers), other grass types, Latias, and plain old power to get through it.
Take away the weather and it becomes that much more manageable - it can't come in on ToxicScor's Fling, it can be paralyzed, it isn't resting up anytime soon, etc. I'm still not sold on Manaphy being a top suspect.
Verdict: OU for now.
-Doryuuzu: This one I'm not sure about. Its best set is Adamant LO, but no one will ever run that because as long as someone out there is running Jolly Balloon, it is unsafe to do so. Meanwhile, it has solid checks, IMO. Virizion, Gliscor, Rohbshin, Landlos...all are solid checks to it in and outside of the weather, with that list growing if Sand isn't blowing. And then, Dory isn't magically getting to +2 unharmed and with its balloon intact. There have been many occassions when the opponent simply cannot afford to set up in the face of whatever I have out at the time, rendering it less effective than ScarfChomp, who at least has no existing type immunity to its STAB Outrage.
And then, the fact stands that Doryuuzu is nothing special outside of sand. Read it twice, read it three times for it to sink in. It is probably the most indicating factor that the perma-weather is the issue: people are just least likely to believe it in this case because Sand-inducers have been around since Gen 3, and only just now, 8 years later, are there Rain and Sun-esque abilities to accompany it. For now though, Dory is manageable, at least in my opinion.
Verdict: OU
-Drizzle / Drought / SandStream: Notice how I lumped these three into the same category. Why? Because, as I noted in the above paragraph, they are finally similar enough for me to be able to do so. With all the controversy about Manaphy and Dory and whatnot, these abilities really do seem to stand out as the method behind the madness. "Manaphy's Hydration is just the cherry on the top," and "Dory completely remodels the speed tier structure" are a few sentiments I've seen echoed in the other thread and this one. But really, it isn't Hydration - the rain activating it is what makes it an issue. Same for Dory and its average base 302 speed max. Sand Throw isn't what gets it to 604, its the Sand blowing behind it. To be fair, Rain sweepers do have the ability to simultaneously boost speed and power, but it hasn't been an issue so long as it is contained within eight turns.
Banning these abilities may be the way to go. If Kingdra, Manaphy, Kabutops, and Shell Break Gorebyss are all manageable outside of rain (and they are, in my experience), but they suddenly become demigods in rain...then limit their rain. If Dory and Landlos aren't exceedingly powerful outside of sand, but then become impossible to defeat in Sand (which they aren't), then stop the Sand. All of the weather inducers have alternative abilities through the Dream World, and when those are released, they can be re-allowed into play. I really hate to say it, as I love the diversity the abilities bring but, until such is true, they may need to be banned for the support they provide to other pokemon.
Verdict: Uncertain, but leaning heavily Uber.
