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(Archive) Small Objective Changes Thread

The first change is implemented, although the second change would require the rewriting of a large section of the guide. On top of this, Pokemon Lab is still "being worked on".
 
Zystral said:
The first change is implemented, although the second change would require the rewriting of a large section of the guide. On top of this, Pokemon Lab is still "being worked on".
Click to expand...
That's true. However, even a sentence or two would help direct new players to the proper simulator. Maybe something like this?

[box]Pokemon Lab is currently undergoing maintenance, and for now many Smogon members are using a server which Smogon has set up on the simulator Pokemon Online. The server is called Smogon University and should be viewable in the main registry.

<a href="http://pokemon-online.eu/files/Pokemon-Online-Setup.exe" target="_blank">Click here to download the Pokemon Online client.</a> [/box]
 
http://smogon.com/dp/pokemon/mesprit

  • The final sentence of OU Counters reads:
    Infernape is a great option as it can attack from both sides of the spectrum, allowing it to defeat Rotom-A with Fire Blast, Swampert with Grass Knot, and Blissey with Close Combat.
    Click to expand...
    "spectrum" should be replaced.
  • I don't understand the IVs for the Lead set for UU. 30 HP / 30 SpA? If Mesprit needs an HP point less, it should use 248 HP EVs.
  • The second paragraph of the Choice Scarf lead for UU reads:
    Stealth Rock is one of the deadliest support moves in the game; with Mesprit setting up Stealth Rock, opponents like Moltres and Altaria lose large amounts of health upon switching in.
    Click to expand...
    This might need to go in subjective changes, but I don't think that explanation, or at least an explanation in such depth, is necessary for a Stealth Rock lead analysis.
  • The final paragraph of the lead for UU reads:
    Powerful sweepers appreciate Stealth Rock on the field as it can make the difference between an OHKO and 2HKO. Again, Blaziken makes an excellent example, as it is able to use its mixed sweeping capabilities to open up major holes in the opponent's team. Another good example is Swords Dance Drapion.
    Click to expand...
    This might again need to go in subjective changes, but I don't think this paragraph is necessary for the purposes of the analysis.
  • The first paragraph of the Weather Support set reads:
    Mesprit is a great Pokemon to set up weather for dangerous sweepers due to its decent Speed stat and good bulk.
    Click to expand...
    I believe that "for dangerous sweepers" is superfluous and can probably be taken out.
  • The second sentence of the second paragraph of the Weather Support reads:
    If Zen Headbutt and U-Turn are used, then Mesprit should have a Jolly nature. As a result, the Special Attack EVs should be shifted into Attack.
    Click to expand...
    The EVs should be shifted into Attack not because of the Jolly nature, but because of the usage of Zen Headbutt and U-turn. Therefore, I believe that the two sentences should probably be merged in a manner akin to "If Zen Headbutt and U-turn are used, then Mesprit should have a Jolly and shift the Special Attack EVs into Attack."
  • U-turn is miscapitalized as "U-Turn" in every mention in the Weather Support set.
  • The third sentence of the second paragraph of the Weather Support set reads:
    Pokemon with the abilities Swift Swim or Chlorophyll, such as Kabutops and Qwilfish or Tangrowth and Exeggutor, are required teammates depending on the weather that is set up.
    Click to expand...
    This might need to be in subjective changes, but I believe this sentence is somewhat superfluous and should probably be removed.
  • The Attack IV on the Trick Room set for UU seems pointless, and the Defense IV on the OU Trick Room set seems pointless too, but I don't know why they were put there; they could serve some purpose.
 
Well, cosmicexplorer, instead of constantly posting in here about a single Pokemon, why not just ask me or one of the QCers if you think Mesprit needed to be updated or re-written. I'd love to see how you'd replace some of those suggestions you made.

Change 1: no, spectrum is a good word in that context, and a creative one at that

Change 2: maybe, I'm not totally sure either, that's something you'd need to bring up in the Subjective Changes thread

Change 3: again no, if you'd give a replacement example maybe I'd replace it. As it stands it's fine how it is

Change 4: No, that is necessary for the analysis as it describes good teammates who can take advantage of Stealth Rock, one of the huge main points of the set

Change 5: No, it may a little superfluous, but superfluous or not, Rain and Sun sweepers are undeniably dangerous.

Change 6: Fine, Fixed

Change 7: Fine, Fixed

Change 8: No, while those specific Pokemon may not be required, Chlorophyll and Swift Swim sweepers are indeed required teammates, otherwise using the set is just plain stupid. It's telling the player why one would use such a set.

Change 9: Again, something for the Subjective changes thread, or something to VM/PM a member of QC.

EDIT: Ahh, that's right, I forgot Mesprit was a legendary. Thanks Nexus.
 
All the IVs mentioned are for the purpose of legality. For example, the combination of Relaxed nature and 31/31/31/31/31/0 IVs does not exist for a Pokemon generated via Method 1 like Mesprit is. The same applies for all suggested IV changes, so they can be left there.
 
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue13/metagame_ou :

Burunkeru

Burunkeru has synergizes well with Nattorei, covering each other's weaknesses perfectly. Burunkeru also spinblocks, though it has some troubles with most Rapid Spinners. Burunkeru is still a good bulky Water, and can prove to be a major pain in the neck at times, with its great special bulk. Between Nattorei and Burunkeru, the only types that aren't resisted are Flying (which is exceedingly rare anyway) and Ground(which is very common, but is handled well by other Pokemon).
Click to expand...

the "has" should be removed, methinks..
 
Oglemi said:
Change 1: no, spectrum is a good word in that context, and a creative one at that
Click to expand...

There was some discussion done about this a while ago, eric the espeon decided that all mentions of spectrum should be removed due to "inaccuracy" and the fact that it's a pretty pointless word in the places it's used. Here is a log from the group "SCMSers"

[00:00] <ete_afk> Theorymon: add the tabs thing to here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64468
[00:01] =-= macle|away is now known as macle
[00:04] =-= YOU are now known as ete
[00:08] <Rory> what is the word to describe whether a type is physical or special (pre-dp)
[00:08] <Theorymon> physical or special?
[00:08] <Rory> haha
[00:09] <Theorymon> wait ete
[00:09] <Theorymon> what do you want me to post?
[00:09] <ete> not post
[00:09] <ete> just edit it in
[00:09] <Rory> i mean like the types ______
[00:09] <Rory> what is in the blank
[00:09] <ete> category?
[00:09] <ete> meh, maybe not
[00:10] <Rory> on the dp move pages it says like Damage: Special
[00:10] <Rory> oh that could work
[00:10] <Sarenji> there was a word but i don't remember it
[00:10] <Theorymon> okay I added it ete
[00:10] <Sarenji> because nobody used it
[00:10] <ete> class?
[00:10] <Sarenji> spectrum
[00:11] <elevator_music> elemental?
[00:11] <ete> spectrum is a silly word for it
[00:11] <Theorymon> UGH NO MORE SPECTRUMS!!!
[00:11] <elevator_music> wasnt that it?
[00:11] <ete> what Tmon said
[00:11] <elevator_music> (i dont know i didnt play im probably wrong)
[00:11] <Theorymon> doesnt Spectrum imply more than 2
[00:11] <Sarenji> i'll spectrum the rainbow for you
[00:11] <Sarenji> yeah it was a bad word
[00:11] <Rory> hm
[00:11] <Rory> damage works for this
[00:11] <ete> And "across the physical and special spectrums" is just >_>
[00:11] <Sarenji> we would say "physical spectrum"
[00:11] <Sarenji> yeah
[00:11] <Theorymon> I may suck at grammar and spelling, but SPECTRUM pisses me off
[00:12] <ete> ^
[00:12] <ete> you know, we should sweep the site for all mentions of spectrum
[00:12] <ete> and eliminate them
[00:12] <Theorymon> yes we should
[00:12] <ete> I bet the SCMS team could do it in under a day.
[00:12] <Sarenji> while you're at it
[00:12] <Sarenji> concise them all
[00:12] <Sarenji> xD
[00:12] <ete> yea
[00:12] <elevator_music> i could actually help with that!
[00:12] <ete> that would be brilliant
[00:13] <Sarenji> i concised skarmory
[00:13] <Sarenji> but
[00:13] <elevator_music> its easy work :)
[00:13] <GreatSage> yeah, spectrum seems inaccurate
[00:13] <Sarenji> i didnt submit it -.-
[00:13] <GreatSage> it's just an easy word to use, unfortunately
[00:13] <ete> I'll post a thread in the SCMS group about spectrums, and link a few people to it.
[00:13] <Theorymon> Sarenjii ps, I am concising Giratina-O for SDS, can you grade me on it when I get a set done?
[00:13] <ete> If that's ok
[00:13] <Sarenji> you get a D
[00:13] <Sarenji> sure
[00:13] <ete> what would be a good word to use?
[00:14] <ete> or a few good words
[00:14] =-= Vader is now known as vadEr|showEr
[00:14] <Sarenji> swords and magic
[00:14] <Theorymon> lol a D would be a good grade for me
[00:14] <ete> alright
[00:14] -->| Vader (~Vader@the.kind.of.guy.who.laughs.at.a.funeral) has joined
[00:14] =-= Mode +v Vader by Porygon2
[00:14] <Sarenji> swords and sorcery*
[00:14] <Rory> deals physical | special damage
[00:15] =-= DougJustDoug is now known as DougJustAway
[00:15] <davidstone> What's wrong with spectrum
[00:15] <davidstone> And what are we replacing it with?
[00:15] -->| Amake (~rosh5@synIRC-85E8525F.cust.cinci.current.net) has joined
[00:15] <Theorymon> it implys more than two
[00:15] <Theorymon> *implies
[00:15] |<-- elevator_music has left irc.synirc.net (Quit: )
[00:16] <davidstone> We need something to replace it with, I think
[00:16] -->| elevator_music (~alphadiam@synIRC-FBBCED7C.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net) has joined
[00:16] =-= Mode +v elevator_music by Porygon2
[00:16] <ete> especially when used as "spectrums"
[00:16] <ete> which imples more than one spectrum
[00:16] <ete> >>_
[00:16] <ete> *>_>
[00:16] <GreatSage> do you have a sample available
[00:16] <ete> i will in a moment
[00:17] <Sarenji> i think part of the reason spectrum was used is because nobody thought of/could agree on a replacement
[00:17] <ete> "With its pathetic HP balanced by its insane defenses, Shuckle is one-of-a-kind when it comes to walling attacks from both the physical and special spectrums."
[00:18] <TAY> lol is this finally being discussed seriously?
[00:18] <TAY> i have been trying to replace "spectrum" for over a year..
[00:18] <ete> "Tangrowth has high HP, Defense, and useful attack stats on both spectrums."
[00:18] <GreatSage> well, that specific instance is easily rectified
[00:18] <GreatSage> "shuckle is one-of-a-king when it comes to walling any attacks"
[00:18] <Theorymon> ahhhh it burns x_x
[00:18] <Sarenji> "when it comes to walling attacks"
[00:18] <Sarenji> yea
[00:18] <Theorymon> there we go
[00:18] <ete> exactly what we need
[00:18] <Sarenji> i want to write a thread
[00:18] <TAY> the main problem is a lack of quality writers but i guess that can be solved so easily...
[00:18] <GreatSage> i would caution against standardization, though
[00:19] <Sarenji> on how to be more concise
[00:19] <TAY> cannot*
[00:19] <GreatSage> this seems like something that is better taken case-by-case
[00:19] <GreatSage> depending on the sentence
[00:19] <ete> ok, but if we aim to take out spectrum
[00:19] <ete> and especially spectrums
[00:19] <davidstone> If you want to specify that Shuckle takes both types of attacks
[00:19] <davidstone> Then just say
[00:19] <ete> whenever there is a decent replacement
[00:19] <davidstone> "...walling physical and special attacks"
[00:19] <ete> that makes sense, right?
[00:20] <ete> yes obi
[00:20] <davidstone> It seems like a lot of times, "spectrum" is simply meaningless
[00:20] <davidstone> Or rather, needless
[00:20] <ete> that's a good way of putting it
[00:20] <davidstone> So in those cases you can simply eliminate it
[00:20] <ete> mhm
[00:20] <davidstone> Although there are a few places where it might not be so easy
[00:20] <ete> In those people should ask in #C&C
[00:20] <ete> or somewhere else
[00:20] <ete> for advise
[00:20] <Sarenji> whoa
[00:20] <Sarenji> i didnt even know that channel existed
[00:20] <Sarenji> i thought you somehow typoed in a #
[00:21] <Theorymon> its unoffical
[00:21] <GreatSage> ok what is #c&c
[00:21] <GreatSage> (honest question)
[00:21] <ete> the only place it is linked is my sig, really
[00:21] <Theorymon> its an unoffical C&C channel
[00:21] <ete> for discussion and coordination of C&C projects
[00:21] <GreatSage> why not discuss stuff here or one of the other official channels
[00:22] <ete> I have /invited you there half a dozen times GS
[00:22] <Theorymon> because some people arent badged
[00:22] <ete> because they are not always available
[00:22] <GreatSage> i... have never received any invitations
[00:22] <ete> that is very odd
[00:22] <Theorymon> and discussing C&C in #stark is pretty hard at times
[00:22] <whistle> this again lol
[00:23] |<-- elevator_music has left irc.synirc.net (Ping timeout)
[00:23] <davidstone> I mostly view C&C as an overflow / speciality channel
[00:23] <davidstone> If people are talking in #stark, I go to C&C
[00:24] -->| elevator_music (~alphadiam@up.up.down.down.up) has joined
[00:24] =-= Mode +v elevator_music by Porygon2
[00:24] <davidstone> Or if it's something like... grammar-related
[00:24] <ete> very minor points
[00:24] <ete> overspecific or unimportant
[00:24] <ete> often work much better there
[00:25] <ete> than in #stark where it gets drowned out and scrolled away, or ignored
[00:25] <ete> or here which seems too important
[00:25] <ete> to bother with some things
[00:25] <ete> and many users are unable to respond here, or are not here at all.

I also fixed Aeron's post.
 
In Sneasel's analysis, Froslass is mentioned in the Choice Band set and the Attacking Lead Set:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/sneasel

Straight out of Weavile's playbook, this set takes advantage of Sneasel's movepool and Speed to form an awesome revenge killer. Pursuit allows it to OHKO Froslass and Mismagius after Stealth Rock regardless of whether or not they flee, in addition to trapping other weakened Pokemon. Punishment, meanwhile, makes it a great check to stat boosters like Venusaur. Ice Shard is great for priority and severely damages Sceptile, Dugtrio, and Swellow. Low Kick rounds out Sneasel's excellent type coverage by pounding UU's Steel- and Rock-types.

Sneasel is one of the most effective and underrated revenge killers in UU. Like Weavile, its movepool lends itself very well to revenge killing and is reinforced by its dual STAB moves.

Pursuit is what makes this set shine, as it becomes extremely powerful with Choice Band equipped. Even when Ghost-types stay in on Pursuit, most of them are still OHKOed by it. After Stealth Rock damage, both Mismagius and Froslass are OHKOed 100% of the time, while Rotom is OHKOed over half of the time. This effectively means that if Sneasel switches in on any of these Pokemon, they're toast. The only things Sneasel needs to watch out for are switching in on a Choice Scarf Rotom's Thunderbolt or Mismagius's Hidden Power Fighting (or Substitute followed by Hidden Power Fighting) and Will-O-Wisp.

Ice Shard is also a given to allow Sneasel to beat other Pokemon with priority moves, as well as do heavy damage to Sceptile, Swellow, Dugtrio, and Alakazam, all of which outspeed it. Ice Punch might seem like a good idea due to Sneasel's high Speed, but Ice Shard is the better option for pure revenge killing due to its priority. In the third slot, Low Kick gets the edge over Brick Break, although Brick Break still has its uses. Low Kick is typically much better against bulkier Pokemon such as Rhyperior, Steelix, Hariyama, and the Regi trio, who Sneasel struggles to hurt with its other moves. Brick Break fares better against lightweights like Clefable and Umbreon, although Low Kick still hits the frail ones for massive damage.

Punishment also makes a great move for a revenge killer, as the more boosts an opponent has accrued, the harder Sneasel hits. After three Calm Minds, it easily OHKOes the most defensive Slowbro, and does 94% minimum after two Calm Minds. It also has a chance to OHKO Venusaur and Raikou after they have used Swords Dance and Calm Mind once, respectively. The majority of Pokemon who have boosted their stats more than once will stand no chance, as they will be hit with a 140 Base Power attack (assuming they are +4) boosted by STAB and Choice Band. The exceptions are Curse users and those that resist Dark-type attacks.

Anything that fears Ghost-types (other than Spiritomb, which Sneasel doesn't counter) will appreciate the company of Sneasel. Other Ghosts come to mind, such as Drifblim, as many of them fear faster Ghosts. Fighting-types, especially those running Choice Scarfs or Bands, such as Hitmonlee, will also enjoy not having Ghost-types switching into their STAB attacks with ease. Sneasel also does a great job of clearing out Spin blockers not named Spiritomb, so any Rapid Spinner will love to have Sneasel on its team and vice versa. Having a reliable check to Calm Mind users is also a great benefit to any team.

As shown by the figures above, Stealth Rock is a necessity for Sneasel to OHKO Mismagius, Froslass, and Rotom. Donphan and Claydol can both Spin away and set up Stealth Rock, and can take many of the attacks Sneasel fears. Uxie and Slowbro both work well with Sneasel, as they can come in on the Fighting-types and bulky Pokemon whom Sneasel fears and cripple them with Thunder Wave or set up screens (in Uxie's case). Milotic and other bulky Waters also make good switch-ins to most of Sneasel's counters.

Access to Inner Focus and Counter makes Sneasel a natural candidate for a lead, especially in a metagame swarming with Ambipom. In addition to OHKOing the purple monkey with Counter, Sneasel also fares very well against Froslass. If Froslass chooses to stay in, she will be crippled by Taunt, then KOed by Pursuit. Other physical attacking leads are Counter bait, and those that will attempt to Stealth Rock on the first turn will fall victim to Taunt. Special attackers often cause trouble, but will not get by without taking a Fake Out and possibly a Taunt.

Sneasel makes an excellent lead in the UU metagame, thanks to its excellent Speed, movepool, and Inner Focus ability. Taunt can be a huge nuisance to leads hoping to set up entry hazards or screens. Fake Out is always a great move on a lead, as it is essentially free damage on most leads and will also get rid of Focus Sashes.

Physical attackers, such as Ambipom, Arcanine, and Regirock, will easily fall victim to Counter should they choose to attack. Not many players will see Counter coming, and simply Fake Out with Ambipom, which will result in an instant KO with Counter. Froslass is also countered very well by Sneasel. Should she choose to stay in, she will be neutered by Taunt, so she cannot lay down Spikes. From there, all she can do in fire off weak attacks while being Pursuited to death. Ice Shard is also an option over Pursuit and allows Sneasel to beat Swellow with Protect and Alakazam.

Although one may be inclined to use a Hasty nature to increase Counter damage, this is largely overkill, as Sneasel's Defense is already very low. Additionally, with a Jolly nature, Sneasel can often survive a Fake Out from Ambipom with over 25% health remaining, which means it can switch in again later in the match even if Stealth Rock is up.

Special attackers in general cause problems for Sneasel, especially those that are not fazed by Taunt or Pursuit. Moltres, Omastar, and Electrode are all common leads that Sneasel cannot beat, so it is better off switching after using Fake Out. Alakazam with Inner Focus can also beat Sneasel, as it is faster and will typically carry a Focus Sash. Rhyperior and Cloyster spell trouble due to Rock Blast, which will OHKO Sneasel through Focus Sash since it hits multiple times in a turn. These Pokemon, along with others that Sneasel cannot counter, such as Omastar, may still be worth using Taunt on, as they may choose to use Stealth Rock or Spikes on the first turn - but don't count on it. Uxie, meanwhile, is always a roll of the dice to face since it commonly carries Trick and U-turn, both of which Sneasel fears.

Sneasel's teammates should be able to switch into the aforementioned leads that it fears. Chansey is, of course, a great switch-in to most special attackers. Milotic can also switch into Moltres, Cloyster, Omastar, and Rhyperior quite easily. Rapid Spinners are also beneficial, as they will allow Sneasel to switch out with its Focus Sash intact and have the opportunity to switch in again later without taking any damage from entry hazards.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/weavile

In particular, Anti-Lead Lucario can tear the set apart, and can also easily set up a Swords Dance against it.
Click to expand...
Weavile's Attacking Lead set mentions an Anti-Lead Lucario, but this set does not exist =P It should be:
In particular, opposing Attacking Lead Lucario can tear the set apart, and can also easily set up a Swords Dance against it.
Click to expand...

And a question: how is Lucario setting up on Weavile when it has Taunt?
 
Any lead that sets up Stealth Rock is labeled as a generic "Lead". Only when multiple lead sets exist that all set up Stealth Rock are specifications used in the set names. (See: Azelf)
Aeron Ee1 said:
And a question: how is Lucario setting up on Weavile when it has Taunt?
Click to expand...
Because it's ballsy as hell for a Weavile to Taunt a Lucario, when Lucario can cleanly obliterate it with CC+ES. Weavile leads, despite being rare, will usually go for the Counter after Fake Out. If you Taunt and he CC's, you're a Pokemon down and you've done nothing to the opponent's team; that's a dangerous position to play from.

EDIT: Fixed all other issues in the above posts.
 
Ampharos isn't your average Electric-type, as it is neither fast nor frail. Due to its good defenses, access to helpful support moves such as Reflect and Heal Bell, and single weakness, Ampharos makes a great supporting tank. Don't think Ampharos is weak offensively, either; it has access to a strong STAB Thunderbolt coming from 361 Special Attack, as well as Focus Punch to deal with pesky walls like Chansey. Ampharos's ability, Static, is helpful against physical attackers, as Ampharos has a chance to paralyze and cripple any Pokemon who makes contact with it. Ampharos's biggest downfall is its low Speed stat, which makes it vulnerable to faster opponents who carry Ground-type attacks.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure this counts since it goes either way, but don't Smogon's grammar standards say for names that end with S, you just add an apostrophe rather than an apostrophe and another S?
 
Still reading through the analysis, I noticed that there's also a typo in the Rain Dance set.

Ampharos makes an ideal Rain Dance setter, as it has great defensive stats and access to 100% accurate STAB Thunder in the rain. Hidden Power Water rounds off the set's coverage, hitting Ground-types super effectivelyand getting a nice boost from rain. The last slot helps complement Ampharos's defensive ability, providing support for its teammates through Safeguard and screens. Heal Bell may be used too, removing status from the team.
Click to expand...

It's missing a space.
 
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