Any other weather checks rain, with abomasnow completely manhandling it. Water absorbers also make excellent rain checks, although they can have trouble with kingdra and ludicolo. Kingdra itself is an excellent pokemon and check and carrying one and getting it in on a quad resisted water attack can give oyu a chance to set up and really hurt their team. I think you're underestimating what can check it. It's still not a very long list, admittedly.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
Any other weather checks rain, with abomasnow completely manhandling it. Water absorbers also make excellent rain checks, although they can have trouble with kingdra and ludicolo. Kingdra itself is an excellent pokemon and check and carrying one and getting it in on a quad resisted water attack can give oyu a chance to set up and really hurt their team. I think you're underestimating what can check it. It's still not a very long list, admittedly.
Well, let's see things that can deal with rain.
Tyrannitar-changes the weather.
Hippowdon-^
Abomasnow^and resists water and electric.
Lanturn-a rather viable pokemon that resists water and is immune to electric.
Electivire-switch in on Thunder and break them with Electric/Fighting.
Jolteon-absorb there thunder and use STAB + HP whatever.
Starmie-Take advantage of the boosts.
Vaporeon-absorb the OHMAHGOSHSCARY water type attacks and support.
Nattorei-resists common rain threats.
Forretres-^
My point being, there are more than enough ways to deal with rain if that's what everyone is worried about.
It is somewhat astonishing how so much can be said with so little actual logic present. Sand Veil doesn't make Chomp broken. Gliscor getting toxic Heal has nothing to do with sand. Also, high usage of sand does not by default make it broken. Sand has many uses, mostly stall, and the pokes that have Sand Stream are very good on their own and are frequently used outside of sand teams. Meanwhile, perma-rain allows for so many more abusers, all of which actually do promote overcentralization, as counters for them are in many ways nonexistent. The astonishing number of rain abusers coupled with the fact that teams must be designed around being able to counter at least somewhat the broken 3 (Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Kabutops) promote overcentralization and lead to a metagame that is wholly unenjoyable to play.
Forretress doesn't resist water unfortunately. Assuming they make it past this suspect test, add scarf deoxys-a and n to this list. They reach a maximum of 657 speed, which is more than enough to outrun everything rain has sans floatzel and boosted kingdra/gorebyss/omastar.
I wasn't TOO serious in shedinja's case. It's a plus for him though. He also beats offensive ludicolo without leech seed.
I wasn't TOO serious in shedinja's case. It's a plus for him though. He also beats offensive ludicolo without leech seed.
I surely love having my Tyranitar and Hippowdon getting manhandled my pretty much any member of the opposing Rain team. Abomasnow pretty much forces you to use a Hail team or is actually hindering you and he's taken care of by any Fighting type move. Lanturn can't take on Kabutops and Kingdra at all. What the hell is Electivire outspeeding even with a Speed Boost and its still to weak to actually make much of a dent. Jolteon is outsped unless its using a Choice Scarf, which means something can take advantage of it. Starmie is outsped and Koed. Vaporeon is manhandled by every attack but water on a Rain team. Nattorei has no reliable recovery and is still gonna be mangled by all the sweepers. And Forrtress? Seriously?
Sorry for completely leaving this conversation, but it's important. Smogon has yet to develop a new 5th Gen tiering system, am I wrong? Well, half of the Smogon community absolutely hates the idea of weather because of dissapointing reasons. HOWEVER, the other half of the community has no problem with it, and actually wants to have fun with it. What if we were to have two different systems? One with weather, and one witthout? That way, neither half of the community has to be dissapointed in an unfavorable metagame. Like, Clear Skys OU and Seasonal OU? Sheesh, I'll help out and do whatever it takes to get that done if that's what it takes.
1) i didn't say sand veil made garchomp better read more closey
2) Gliscor doesn't mind residual damage from the sand think about stall
3) don't insult intelligence its not a good look :/
4) you still have to carry counters for the sand as well, if you don't have a counter for Dory you are screwed, if you don't have someone who can get pasted the stall of someone like gliscor you are screwed, if you don't have 2 checks for chomp just in case his "unbroken" sand veil ability kicks in and your ice beam/shard/punch misses you are screwed.
What point can you make about rain that sand cant offer back?
Umm, your post was about sand being just as good as rain so obviously you were using the existence of Garchomp as a supporting point. With that in mind, I refuted by explaining the Chomp is broken with or without rain, rendering that point invalid. Also, Poison Heal Gliscor does not make sand stall amazingly good, it just makes it a gliscor without roost or stealth rock that has double leftovers. I demonstrated the weakness of that point in saying that, making it largely inconsequential. Also, the number of counters for Doryuuzu far outnumber those of the broken 3 rain abusers. I would suggest playing with them and seeing for yourself how hard they are to stop. Things like Roobushin and Breloom can reliably counter Doryuuzu nearly 100% of the time with much of any residual damage. Name a reliable counter for Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops, will you.
Well, Kingdra has always(and still has) a problem Skarmory.
Ludicolo is stopped cold by A Specially Orientated Nattorei.
Kaputops also has alot of trouble with Skarmory. You can say all you want about "Water is neutral, Rock is neutral, and Fighting is neutral" but Skarmory can still easily deal with and phaze Kabutops.
In addition to the scarfed deoxys and scarfed jolteon (lol), the MH users in general can handle all of the rain sweepers sans chesto rest kingdra by severely crippling them.
Additionally, why does a single pokemon NEED to be able to counter three at the same time. Roob isn't taking on sandslash, dory, and landlos/garchomp with relative ease. Nor is any dragon counter going to rip through latias, salamence, dragonite, etc.
Additionally, why does a single pokemon NEED to be able to counter three at the same time. Roob isn't taking on sandslash, dory, and landlos/garchomp with relative ease. Nor is any dragon counter going to rip through latias, salamence, dragonite, etc.
I´m not a great defender of the weather metagame as it is now, but really, i can´t believe that even in the 5th gen there are people using the argument of "(A) can counter (B), but you can put in your team (C), (D), (E), (F) and (G) with the moves (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) respectively and use them against (B), therefore i think that the metagame of (A), (C), (D), (E), (F), (G) are broken because nearly all them can defeat (B) using a exact move in the exact moment", now arguing that a playstile is broken because nothing can defeat all the abusers of it playstile is so sad and so illogical than saying "Trick Room must be banned because nothing can defeat all its abusers", in the 5th gen are many variety of teams and many playstiles that have many abusers and the only method for fighting against all them is using the prediction, a good synergical team and a few of knowledge, and the counters that can defeat always something never had existed, get used to it (and it goes for all the weather haters)...
Yay! A weather supporter. No one said anything about the weather tiers though...
Kingdra in rain are usually specs now. Specs Hydro Pump OHKOes Skarm. Ludicolo 2HKOs Nattorei with Focus Blast, and Nattorei can't OHKO. Sure, you can phase Kabutops, and bring out anything else and it will KO yoyu with a rain-boosted special attack
Trick Room lasts five turns. These previously ok pokes are getting a huge boost, and if an offensive core cannot be reliably countered by anything, you have a problem
Those can't reliably counter all three of these pokemon, seeing as they will likely be KOed after T-Waving them, leaving the other two perfectly fine
If it's Specs Kingdra you're sad about, do you not remember...
-Chansey
-Blissey
-Vaporeon
-Snorlax (no I'm not insane, he can deal.)
-Swampert (well, maybe, but still)
They aren't necessary counters, just checks. Kind of like how scarf deoxys isn't a counter, but checks nearly all rain pokemon.
I still don't see why rain in its entirety needs to be countered by one pokemon. If a single pokemon could counter their playstyle, rain wouldn't be very good. On the other hand, it says something if you need to carry multiple counters to one strategy, I guess. Thankfully, scarf deoxys is useful as a revenge killer all around.
I still don't see why rain in its entirety needs to be countered by one pokemon. If a single pokemon could counter their playstyle, rain wouldn't be very good. On the other hand, it says something if you need to carry multiple counters to one strategy, I guess. Thankfully, scarf deoxys is useful as a revenge killer all around.
Swampert can't take repeated Hydro Pumps in the Rain, from Specs, with STAB added on top. Snorlax, with a +SpD nature, and 252 HP | 252 SpD EVs takes 50% - 59%, a nice 2HKO. Vaporeon doesn't like repeated Dragon Pulses, and with one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up, it'll 2HKO.
Chansey and Blissey are free set-up bait for Toxicroak (come in as they Toxic, or even Thunder Wave, since neither can stop you from setting up), Nattorei (more Spikes), or Manaphy.
Personally, I see Rain as something you can't prepare fully against. If you prepare a specific team-slot for dealing with one Pokemon, such as Kingdra, then another Rain sweeper will come in and take advantage of the situation.
I have used a Sand team it actually isn't that difficult to use if you put counters for your counters, but that is just good team building but i guess that isn't thought of when making teams, anyway. Also, the fact that garchomp is good in and without sand only boosts sand's power since he gets better in it, that doesn't nullify the point.
Kingdra- specially/physically defensive vaporeons (or at least mine) can stall out kingdra with hydration+rest.
LUdicolo- Toxicroaks sucker punch actually does wonders there, outside of that i am still working on it, he is a new threat, but like i said earlier i used Scizor bug bite if scizor was still at full HP to OHKO back. Vap can still stall Life orb sets.
Kabutops- stell types do wonders. Priority moves like mach punch and bullet punch do a good job at lowering his health.
All of their biggest weakness is changing the weather, which means just aim for politoed, my advice wobbuffett and pursuit users to take him out quickly. Rain is Hyper Offensive friendly, and sadly most of its counters rely on rain, but burning physical kingdras and kabutops stop their sweeps, and blissey can stall any special ludicolo or special kingdra. Stall is pretty much their biggest weakness and would probably need 2 stalling pokemon on your team to handle it well, but hey thats team planning. Also, having a rain abuser on your team isn't that bad, you can run vap on your team without rain just in case one shows up and i have walled a full rain team with it only and toxic spikes down, so i know it can do wonders.
If my points don't do it for you, then we might as well stop now cause we won't go anywhere, i don't see it your way and if you still don't then no point in argueing.
The problem with Pursuit is that all the good users of Pursuit like Scizor and Tyranitar can't take repeated Hydro Pumps. Tyranitar is 2HKOed (iirc) from Scarf Hydro Pump, even in a Sandstorm. Scizor is OHKOed by Scarf Hydro Pump in Rain.
No offense, but it must not have been a well thought out Rain team. Being walled by Vaporeon? That tells me that they didn't run a Ludicolo, Omastar, or even Gorebyss on their entire team, three premier Rain Offense attackers. Toxic Spikes is something a standard Rain team should be prepared for, either with Rapid Spin, or a Pokemon that can absorb Toxic Spikes (ala Toxicroak).
Yep, but Trick Room isn´t interrupted if you switch-in an auto-weather pokemon, and an offensive core will not be countered by one pokemon only, you can defeat any offensive core, but you need two or more pokemons and many people is saying that "you can switch out Toxicroak if the opponent uses Blissey against Kingdra and/or Ludicolo" but they don´t stop to think that it can be countered be other things (and not every rain team have Toxicroak), their idea is that only a Blissey must counter Kingdra, Ludicolo, Toxicroak, and other things and there the rain will not be broken, but anyway it makes no sense, if you want to prove that the weather is broken, you must use better arguments (but i have mi own opinion about it).
Do you not remember Kabutops? That is the point I am making. Each of them alone is not broken, but when you can freely switch between them thanks to perma-rain, they are.
Weeel, when I was a whipper shnapper, there wares this WONDEFUL comber called SkarmBliss. XD
- Status