np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Well, Latios wasn't banned... Should I still use Sazandora anyway?

(is waiting for the day when someone on the OU board writes a Latios analysis)

I was half hoping that Latios would be banned so I wouldn't have to make this decision, especially when Soul Dew hasn't been released.
 
It's pretty easy to see why Manaphy avoided the supermajority; many of the players wanted to see how Manaphy would do outside of Drizzle. Since Drizzle is far, far more broken than Manaphy is outside of Rain, it seems like a pretty easy decision to make, really.
 
I don't think manaphy is ubers without drizzle, He wont be able to use tailglow to the fullest because of its 100 base speed. I mean it doesnt even have an instant recovery to utilize a calm mind set to the fullest either.
 
Arc Tech said:
I really think that Drizzle, Drought, and Sandstream should be voted on as a block.
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Drizzle and Drought maybe, but SAND? Please, the only new difference is Doryuuzu. Why not just ban Speed abilities? Everything new that I've seen use Swift Swim/Sand Throw/Chloropyll. I still see no use in banning a legitamate metagame strategy.
 
Tyrant626 said:
Drizzle and Drought maybe, but SAND? Please, the only new difference is Doryuuzu. Why not just ban Speed abilities. Everything new that I've seen use Swift Swim/Sand Throw/Chloropyll? I still see no use in banning a legitamate metagame strategy.
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So when was Randorosu sudddenly not a Sand sweeper? He's just as effective as Doryuuzu.
 
Sandslash as well. And I feel that weather-offense teams without autoweather are more viable than weather-stall teams with autoweather, which why I think we should ban the auto-weather abilities, not the speed-boosting abilities.

And if we ban Drizzle and Drought, but not Sandstream, people will accuse Smogon of quite simply not adapting to change and trying to stick to the status quo- which I agree with. Not to mention it will make Rain/Sun offense mediocre like last gen.
 
dragonmaster951753 said:
I realize if i don't run a dory counter i will lose, however he suggested that you don't have to run a counter for dory but you do have to for rain teams, but then said if i don't run those specific people then dory will run me over



Just how running Vap isn't harming my team because it has uses outside of that as well, or any of the counters i provided, so my point being, rain isn't any worse than sand
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What counter have you provided? Vaporeon does not counter rain.

SJCrew said:
Ok, I just had to point this out.


Somebody forgot about Honchkrow.
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And it wasn't on Inconsistent somehow
 
Arc Tech said:
And if we ban Drizzle and Drought, but not Sandstream, people will accuse Smogon of quite simply not adapting to change and trying to stick to the status quo- which I agree with. Not to mention it will make Rain/Sun offense mediocre like last gen.
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That's EXACTLY what's going to happen if we ban any of them at all. Auto-weather is fine in itself, its just a new tool in the metagame, and it's the speed abilities that we should be more concerned about. Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops/Venusaur/Tangrowh/Doryuuzu are monsters BECAUSE of their abilities to outspeed nearly everything, not because of the weather itself. We should focus our attention on banning the speed abilities themselves, then see how the metagame works from there.
 
Hmmm, now that I think about it, we may be going about this the wrong and old way. These weathers are not a problem as a part of a pokemon- it's as a part of a team. So we should handle it as a team. Only a combination of Drizzle and Swift Swim on a team is broken, so ban having Swift Swim and Drizzle on a team. It may not be a strictly simple rule, but there aren't species of teams to ban. The only problem is that this may open up a slippery slope to people saying we should have made it so only 1 dragon was allowed on a team last gen or something, but I think Drizzle and Swift Swim are intertwined enough to make it a seperate case. I think that's the only solution that allows for the viability of all types of teams that are possible with rain and stops the broken varieties, as well as being non-arbitrary versus the arbitrary choice between Drizzle and Swift Swim.

In the above post, the assumption that we find rain broken is made (I do not necesarily support it, I voted do not ban).
Also while I used rain, I mean sun and sand as well.
 
That's too many unnecessary bans and the speed boosting abilities don't do anything without weather. Kingdra with + Speed isn't nealy as threatening as Kingdra with + Speed and "Hey, my Hydro Pump now 3HKOs the only thing that can reliably stop me."

You guys don't understand how Drizzle was the worst thing to happen to the standard metagame. Non weather is completely and utterly outclassed. That's too many Pokemon made nonviable for the sake of TTar/Hippow/Politoed on every team [that wants to win]. That's not a "new metagame to adapt to", that's just fucked up. There is no balance in permanent Rain.
 
252/252 Careful Roopushin has no chance to be OHKO'd by Specs Kingdra's Hydro Pump in the rain without hazards up. Takes 80% - 94.4%.

Unfortunately, he can't really do anything back. Things are looking grim for drizzle...
 
SJCrew said:
That's too many unnecessary bans and the speed boosting abilities don't do anything without weather. Kingdra with + Speed isn't nealy as threatening as Kingdra with + Speed and "Hey, my Hydro Pump now 3HKOs the only thing that can reliably stop me."
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So you're faster Scizor/Garchomp/Sazandora/Ononokusu/Salamence/Flygon/Gengar/etc. can't do ANYTHING to it if it doesn't have Swift Swim?
 
Tyrant626 said:
So you're faster Scizor/Garchomp/Sazandora/Ononokusu/Salamence/Flygon/Gengar/etc. can't do ANYTHING to it if it doesn't have Swift Swim?
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That's not the point. Banning these abilities would be disallowing the use of the entire playstyle; Rain can still be summoned with Rain Dance, and Swift Swimmers would still have doubled Speed, but removing these abilities would not allow that kind of playstyle at all. Banning Drizzle, on the other hand, would still allow Rain to exist, but it wouldn't be overpowered, because of the limited number of turns that the weather is up. If we want to ban the part that's actually broken, then we should ban Drizzle, not Swift Swim.
 
Tyrant626 said:
So you're faster Scizor/Garchomp/Sazandora/Ononokusu/Salamence/Flygon/Gengar/etc. can't do ANYTHING to it if it doesn't have Swift Swim?
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I don't understand exactly what that sentence was trying to say, but I'll take a crack at it. Banning Speed-boosting abilities is unnecessary because it doesn't do anything about the boosted Water STAB, Hydration, or Rain Dish. Manaphy still gets to dump all over teams with permanent Rain giving it a free Hydration. Rain Stall will rise and dominate. Specs [insert decent Water type] will monopolize Burungeru's position as the choice of bulky Water for a team.

Even if you attempt dismantle my argument point by point by saying what I mentioned "doesn't matter", you're still aiming at the wrong target. Permanent Rain causes a combination of factors that make the metagame unhealthy, not Swift Swim. Even if we get rid of the Speed-boosting property, there's no guarantee that permanent Rain won't still be a driving force. It's a shot in the dark.

Banning Drizzle, however, has a 100% success rate for those who think permarain is overpowered. If you make it so that it has to be set up from time to time manually instead of just switching in, it will be effective as it was last gen, which was 'only for Kingdra' or not at all.
 
cosmicexplorer said:
That's not the point. Banning these abilities would be disallowing the use of the entire playstyle; Rain can still be summoned with Rain Dance, and Swift Swimmers would still have doubled Speed, but removing these abilities would not allow that kind of playstyle at all. Banning Drizzle, on the other hand, would still allow Rain to exist, but it wouldn't be overpowered, because of the limited number of turns that the weather is up. If we want to ban the part that's actually broken, then we should ban Drizzle, not Swift Swim.
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This is what I've argued before. Although you'd have to ban ALL auto-weather abilities because without Rain, Sand dominates, without Rain or Sand, Sun is monstrous, without Rain/Sand/or Sun, Hail would be monstrous as well (Choice Specs Kyurem for win!). But there is nothing wrong with setting it up and it causes some cool team things if you want to use weather. I mean, you still have Rain Dance on Brongzong, Kingdra, Jirachi, Mew, Ludicolo, pretty much every water...as well as MISCHIEVIOUS HEART users like Voltlos, Tornelos, Sableye, Erufuun...Sun has some good users and Mischievious Heart as well, Mew...Auto permanent weather is both overpowering and one-sided (unless you also run a weather team) but unnecessary.
 
People are not taking the Drizzle ban well cuz it doesn't make sence to ban it while keeping sun and sandstorm which is as good as Rain in this gen. Sand Throw is even better than Swift Swim as well as sandstorm as Doryuuzu, the most annoying and strong sweeper ever. If you want to ban Drizzle I think you should ban all permanent weather pokemon users. Cuz as you guys said before, if you ban drizzle and drought there is rain dance and sunny day. But there's also Sandstorm so why don't u jst ban perm sandstorm too? ...
 
Fluffy Otters said:
This is what I've argued before. Although you'd have to ban ALL auto-weather abilities because without Rain, Sand dominates, without Rain or Sand, Sun is monstrous, without Rain/Sand/or Sun, Hail would be monstrous as well (Choice Specs Kyurem for win!). But there is nothing wrong with setting it up and it causes some cool team things if you want to use weather. I mean, you still have Rain Dance on Brongzong, Kingdra, Jirachi, Mew, Ludicolo, pretty much every water...as well as MISCHIEVIOUS HEART users like Voltlos, Tornelos, Sableye, Erufuun...Sun has some good users and Mischievious Heart as well, Mew...Auto permanent weather is both overpowering and one-sided (unless you also run a weather team) but unnecessary.
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Nah I don't think perma-hail is very much of a problem. No offensive boosts, not even any defensive boosts. The only thing it does is 6% damage and make blizzard 100% accurate, outside of abilities. Specs Kyurem is easily countered by any specially defensive steel type, such as special defense jirachi and heatran. Bulky waters with good special denfense, such as burungeru, also ruin its day. Not to mention choice item + SR weak is not the greatest combination. The others should be voted on as a block though.
 
Banning all of them at once seems a bit premature; Sand has only Doryuuzu, which is broken in itself, and it's difficult to tell if Sun is overpowered when Rain is so dominant. And Specs Blizzards are still nothing special, easily walled by both Water- and Steel-types, and Kyuremu's low speed and bad typing lets it down too. But I do agree that Rain is still a viable strategy and in no way broken without the infinite rain.
 
Well, Sand can still be summoned without Sand Stream too. I agree with Fluffy Ottters, if you're going to ban auto-weather abilities, ban them all. If we just banned rain, sand dominates, if we ban sand, rain dominates, ban both, sun dominates, then ban all three, hail dominates.

I'd prefer it if all four weathers were left unbanned, they aren't really that troubling to me. But if we are going to ban weather, they need to all be banned. If only one weather dominates, then there's even less counters to that weather because there are no auto-weather changers to get rid of the weather immediately.

EDIT: Ninja'd
 
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