np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[astrohawke]

Playtesting, huh? I am completely convinced now. I mean, these citations of being able to tell that infinite turns is longer then 6-7 turns is clearly proof of their brokenness in Rain. And clearly, the high usage of Kingdra means he's broken. Clearly, you can't be implying that with ZERO game mechanic changes for Kabutops, Kingdra, or Ludicolo, that they are suddenly broken simply because the rain lasts longer, could you?

Infinite rain has 2 implications. First is that you don't need to spend 1 turn setting up. That is a MAJOR improvement as said before. Second is that you can no longer out-stall it. Rain teams in gen 4 could still be very difficult to deal with but knowing that they only had 7 turns or so to sweep, you can switch around, sub/protect stall etc until it disappeared. Then they would be at a major disadvantage as they would have to switch back to their rain dancer, rain dance again, and switch again to their sweeper effectively wasting 3 turns to begin another 7 turn sweep. On top of all that, you would most likely have to carry 3 or more rain dancers meaning 3 pokemon with damp rock instead of something more offensively oriented, and 3 pokemon with only 3 moves which makes it that much easier to wall. That is what has changed between then and now.

Meanwhile, I personally made a rain team to test brokenness (possibly the best way to get a feel of whether something is broken or not), and I will tell you right now, while Kabutops, Kingdra and Ludicolo are great sweepers, they aren't broken. Paralysis cripples all three, and the old fashioned Skarm/Bliss core shuts them down pretty easily. Tentacruel hard counters special Ludicolo, Defensive Gyarados counters DDKingdra, Kabutops can't beat Skarmory, Nattorei is a 3HKO from Specs Rain Boosted STAB Hydro Pump. Now, take a look at that statement again, because people misconstrue that very often. The highest powered attack that Kingdra has can't even get a two hit KO. Nattorei can switch in, TWave and cripple a Kingdra before it has the chance to kill, and let's not forget the 80% accuracy on Hydro Miss.

The point you're missing isn't that rain has no counters. It's just they have very few and you often need more than one on the team or you will be swept. You gave separate counters for all 3 of the common rain sweepers. Some of them are wrong too because kabutops destroys skarmory but disregarding that, does that mean that in order to not be swept by rain, I must have nattorei, blissey, skarmory and gyarados on my team?

 

[PokéMontage]

what's the likelihood of the Latis getting banned?

Latios would have to be re-nominated next round. Only 15% wanted to ban him. Latias wasn't even nominated.

 

[Aleva]

The point you're missing isn't that rain has no counters. It's just they have very few and you often need more than one on the team or you will be swept. You gave separate counters for all 3 of the common rain sweepers. Some of them are wrong too because kabutops destroys skarmory but disregarding that, does that mean that in order to not be swept by rain, I must have nattorei, blissey, skarmory and gyarados on my team?

I don't see why Rain has to have 1 counter that destroys the entire playstyle. I don't remember one pokemon being able to put a stop to any other playstyle JUST by itself. If running just one pokemon let you counter a team of six, then rain wouldn't be a playstyle at all, it'd just be a gimmick. Does Sandstorm have one huge trouble pokemon that counters everything they do?

 

[TheValkyries]

I'd be more convinced by playtesting than theorymon anyday.

Too bad you showcased neither to even attempt to prove that they were broken.

Firstly, 6-7 turns is harder to play Rain Dance with than infinite. I remember in 4th gen UU, one of the ways that Rain Dance was beaten was to stall out the rain turns (which is done easier than you would imagine).
Now if you were to put infinite rain, you'd be switching around in vain waiting for something that's not going to come.

So, what exactly is your point here? That was 4th gen UU. This is 5th gen OU. The Defensive pokemon in this metagame are far more equipped to handle Rain indefinitely.

Secondly, since rain only lasted 6-7 turns, dedicated Rain Dancers were used on the team, which 1) made you lose 2-3 moveslots over 2-3 Pokemon and 2) ruined the synergy of rain teams. Now, with Politoed bringing in rain just by switching in, you can now run a whole host of different Pokemon to patch in weaknesses and what not. With Drizzle, rain becomes a whole lot more flexible than the rigid 3 dedicated Rain Dancers + 3 Swift Swimmers of 4th gen Rain Dance.

Oh, so now that it's not crippled as a strategy it should be crippled again? Still no evidence supported as to how they're broken.

So?? Paralysis cripples Skymin. It cripples Darkrai. It cripples Deoxys-A/N. Doesn't stop them getting booted out with a supermajority.

Paralysis in tandem with the ability to get countered is the difference between those three and the three Swift Swimmers.

Adamant +2 Kabutops LO Waterfall vs 252/252+ Skarmory (Don't know who runs this, but people who use SpD Skarm would suffer even more): 86.53% - 102.40%

I was honestly unaware of this, my Kabutops has always been Jolly and missing that OHKO chance. My mistake, but there are other counters. Nattorei is an obvious example.

Do you also remember that this is a resisted attack?? Don't forget that Nattorei can't OHKO Kingdra in return either, so you'd either use Leech Seed (which any good player would just switch over to their Grass-type) or use Thunder Wave and watch your main Rain check get put into irreparable range, staring down the barrel of possibly 3 more Swift Swimmers (depends on how offensive your opponent is).

SD Ursaring with a Flame Orb 2HKO's Physical Skarmory with Return. He's not broken because that's also a resisted attack. He can still get phazed out. Kingdra can still get crippled. Meanwhile Burungeru takes a grand total of 25% from Hydro Pump. And by 25% I mean 25% healed. Spamming Hydro Pump at a Natorrei Burungeru core isn't very smart.



As for Ninetails, he has been a major disappointment, but Sun is just too fun of a weather to pass up.

 

[astrohawke]

I don't see why Rain has to have 1 counter that destroys the entire playstyle. I don't remember one pokemon being able to put a stop to any other playstyle JUST by itself. If running just one pokemon let you counter a team of six, then rain wouldn't be a playstyle at all, it'd just be a gimmick. Does Sandstorm have one huge trouble pokemon that counters everything they do?

Because you don't need to counter everything in sand if you can outspeed and revenge kill it. Every team has a doryuuzu counter because if you don't, you're going to get swept. Now apply that to rain except x3 or x4 and half your team is already dedicated to stopping rain seriously limiting team diversity. Therein lies the problem.

Kingdra can still get crippled. Meanwhile Burungeru takes a grand total of 25% from Hydro Pump. And by 25% I mean 25% healed. Spamming Hydro Pump at a Natorrei Burungeru core isn't very smart.

Nattorei + Burungeru is killed by ludicolo. It's easy to list a bunch of counters to single pokemon but if you make a team consisting of any more than 2 of these counters, it won't be a very good team when dealing with non-rain teams. And 2 counters usually aren't enough to stop a rain sweep.

 

[SJCrew]

Valkyries, I'm not going to get too deep into this debate, but as a bystander, I can tell your arguments are pretty biased. Rain is faster and stronger than any non-weather offensive team. There is no catch-all defensive combination to beat Rain's sweepers. You are speaking based solely on experiences and your limitations as a player. There is more than one side to this argument and you refuse to listen to any besides your own.

On the other hand, the playerbase in favor of Rain being banned knows fully well what it can do to even prepared teams. Kingdra spams Specs attacks, Ludicolo handles bulky Water types, random sweeper cleans up afterward. Maybe Toxicroak. It's so formulaic yet so effective.

Also, you can't stall out Rain like you did in 4th gen. And in 4th gen there was no way around it other than stalling it out. That is why it's broken now. Games last longer than 8 turns. And for every turn they do, they have to deal with absurdly fast and powerful sweeper. Both players play with this in mind, which is why very few people can run an effective non-weather balanced offensive team. I won't go so far as to say it's impossible, but perma-Rain went a long way in ensuring no team went without Nattorei or an auto-weather changer, lest there be no hope at all.

Without Nattorei, I severely doubt there would be any valid arguments as to whether or not perma-Rain is broken in this metagame. After that, Sun has to go too. Once they do, we can get to the real meat and potatoes of the Gen 5 metagame we've all been waiting to play.

 

[Ulevo]

Without Nattorei, I severely doubt there would be any valid arguments as to whether or not perma-Rain is broken in this metagame. After that, Sun has to go too. Once they do, we can get to the real meat and potatoes of the Gen 5 metagame we've all been waiting to play.

That's the problem. This is the meat and potatoes. You (people in this debate) just don't happen to like what is on your plate.

 

[JSND]

I always thought that 2 most dominant weather as far as my experience on the server tell me is rain and sand with aprox 45 % sand 50 % Rain 5 % Sun, in term of common level after i calculated it.
Sand is as common as rain with sand having many way to really play around rain if used properly.
Rain is easier to use but sand when played by some with higher experience can actualy
beat a well made sand team.

The power of rain lies in infinite rain. due to this, deleting rain can gave some big damage if executed properly due to general better pokemon in Ttar. Reviewed as a whole, sand has more potential as a whole but rain has roughtly same potential as sand is in common situation.

Thats why, i think banning drizzle means one of dory or rando must go too since they are the one who bring sand to this level

 

[SJCrew]

The problem with banning Doryuuzu or Landlos is that they're just not broken. They have a breadth of really solid checks and counters that are on nearly every team. No one is stretching themselves thin just to beat them (though the ridiculous Gliscor influx is kind of overdoing it), they're just not as big a problem as other things like Latios or Manaphy.

Even with stronger suspects/weather banned, I just don't see a compelling argument vs. Sand. Now if we had a lot of decent Sand Throw users to take advantage of this, we might be having a different conversation, but as of right now...

 

[astrohawke]

That's the problem. This is the meat and potatoes. You (people in this debate) just don't happen to like what is on your plate.

That is not the problem. We don't ban things just because it's new or different and we can't adapt. The problem is it's too hard to combat without using a weather team yourself. Most likely that weather will be sand so then the metagame just becomes rain vs sand and that's not so good for it.

 

[shrang]

Too bad you showcased neither to even attempt to prove that they were broken.

Actually, I did. I got the ranking needed for voting rights last round using a Rain team almost exclusively.

So, what exactly is your point here? That was 4th gen UU. This is 5th gen OU. The Defensive pokemon in this metagame are far more equipped to handle Rain indefinitely.

Fine. I was using 4th gen UU as an example of a scenario where 6-7 turns is vastly different to infinite rain. It's kind of useless trying to compare it to an imaginary 5th gen OU where Damp Rock and Rain Dance is the only way of setting up, you'd much rather compare to it 4th gen UU (and OU), at least there is actually substance for you to compare to. While it is no means conclusive, it still gives you an idea of what the difference between Damp Rock/Rain Dance Rain teams are like as compared to Drizzle.

I was honestly unaware of this, my Kabutops has always been Jolly and missing that OHKO chance. My mistake, but there are other counters. Nattorei is an obvious example.

Nattorei gets OHKOed by +2 Low Kick IIRC. "Countering" SD Kabutops is probably even more difficult than trying to counter Doryuuzu (Basically the best way is to either not let him set up or revenge him with Roobushin or something).

SD Ursaring with a Flame Orb 2HKO's Physical Skarmory with Return. He's not broken because that's also a resisted attack. He can still get phazed out. Kingdra can still get crippled. Meanwhile Burungeru takes a grand total of 25% from Hydro Pump. And by 25% I mean 25% healed. Spamming Hydro Pump at a Natorrei Burungeru core isn't very smart.

SD Flame Orb Ursaring is practically killed by whatever's faster than him. Kingdra, on the other hand, is faster than pretty much everything and can kill the majority of them without even setting up. While Nattorei is a annoying, the problem that it has is that it has no recovery. Kingdra can spam Hydro Pump once and just switch out, meaning Nattorei isn't safe next time (this isn't even mentioning that Nattorei is virtually your main check to everything else on the rain team, meaning it's hardly ever going to be >70 or 80% health against an all-out offensive team). While yes, Hydro Pump is soaked up by Burungeru, how are you going to take a Specs Draco Meteor to the face?? Switch Nattorei into that, you say. Hydro Pump is potential 2HKO in that situation (after it's hurt a bit, which it will be). You can apply this same logic to Reshiram in the sun. If he uses Blue Fire, I'll switch in *insert really bulky Water here*, if he uses Draco Meteor, I'll switch in *insert bulky Steel here*.

Just because a Pokemon has counters does not mean it's not broken, while conversely, just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it is broken. People should really stop conclusively judging a Pokemon/style by its counters.

 

[astrohawke]

While yes, Hydro Pump is soaked up by Burungeru, how are you going to take a Specs Draco Meteor to the face?? Switch Nattorei into that, you say. Hydro Pump is potential 2HKO in that situation (after it's hurt a bit, which it will be). You can apply this same logic to Reshiram in the sun. If he uses Blue Fire, I'll switch in *insert really bulky Water here*, if he uses Draco Meteor, I'll switch in *insert bulky Steel here*.

To be fair, specially defensive burungeru can wall specs latios draco meteors and recover off the damage.

IMO it's way superior to run physical sets on just about everything that can except maybe ludicolo. Physical water is way harder to wall because only bulky waters and nattorei really stand a chance and most bulky waters nor nattorei have reliable recovery while the bulky waters still get hit really hard by secondary STABs. Most rain teams also have their own nattorei to deal with bulky waters.

I also try not to choice anything because as a hyper offensive team, it's bad to be locked into an unfavorable move and have to switch in something else that's probably quite fragile. Because you outspeed everything and hit like a ton of bricks, a lot of people try to switch around into resistances. I just laugh at that because I just spam the super effective attack without prediction while they rack up stealth rock damage and residual damage from those resisted attacks. The moment they over predict or stop to attack, they eat a powerful super effective attack possibly boosted by STAB and/or rain and die.

 

[shrang]

To be fair, specially defensive burungeru can wall specs latios draco meteors and recover off the damage.

Recover off with what?? EDIT: Oops I thought it said Nattorei, my bad.

Anyway, about Specs Kingdra's position on a Hyper Offensive team, while it isn't always a good idea to use Choiced Pokemon on a team, Kingdra's power and speed usually outweigh the fact that he's locked in. I mean, a NFE Hydro Pump in the rain is the same power as a neutral Dragon Pulse anyway. You can either use it as a wallbreaker earlier in the game by busting up walls not named Chansey/Blissey (even then if you can force them out at ~50%, you can 2HKO them when they get back), then bring him in later to clean up with Surf.

 

[Ulevo]

That is not the problem. We don't ban things just because it's new or different and we can't adapt. The problem is it's too hard to combat without using a weather team yourself. Most likely that weather will be sand so then the metagame just becomes rain vs sand and that's not so good for it.

Not that I'm agreeing with you that using another weather variant is essential to use against other weather variants to win, but I'd love for you to humor me with an explanation as to why a rain vs sand based metagame would be "not so good for it."

The only objective measure that can be used to monitor a metagames "health" is its battle statistics. How frequently and consistently the player base plays that particular tier. Telling me something as subjective as that doesn't explain to me how people will refuse to play that particular metagame. It just expresses to me your personal disposition of having to involve yourself and compete in said environment.

 

[SJCrew]

Just because a Pokemon has counters does not mean it's not broken, while conversely, just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it is broken.

I don't understand why you keep repeating this, it doesn't make any sense. Pokemon with no counters haven't just been waltzing around OU in our faces without us noticing or doing anything about it. Everything we deemed "uncounterable" in 4th gen was banned from its respective tier and as a result, they ended up as perfectly healthy, stable metagames (4th gen UU pre-Hera, of course).

Why shouldn't we ban Pokemon without counters? If you're at severe risk no matter what you switch into a certain Pokemon, isn't that a pretty big problem that needs to be addressed? If the playerbase decides it no longer cares about counters, they can stop bringing it up in discussion and using it as arguments to ban Pokemon. But that simply hasn't happened yet. Countering is our response to the Pokemon in and it's a huge part of the way we play the game. A staggeringly low success rate should be a pretty big indicator that said Pokemon is broken.

 

[astrohawke]

Recover off with what??

Recover? What else.

Anyway, about Specs Kingdra's position on a Hyper Offensive team, while it isn't always a good idea to use Choiced Pokemon on a team, Kingdra's power and speed usually outweigh the fact that he's locked in. I mean, a NFE Hydro Pump in the rain is the same power as a neutral Dragon Pulse anyway. You can either use it as a wallbreaker earlier in the game by busting up walls not named Chansey/Blissey (even then if you can force them out at ~50%, you can 2HKO them when they get back), then bring him in later to clean up with Surf.

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I prefer to leave as little to prediction as possible. When I outspeed everything, there's not much disadvantage to keep firing off super effective attacks and either wait for residual damage to take its toll or for my opponent to make a prediction error as they're the ones forced to switch around and not me.

 

[JSND]

I agree more with Shrang's opinion for Specs Kingdra being more superior.
While buru can wall it to some extent, buru lose against Ludicolo.

Also The true "beauty" of Rain is the ability to spam overpowered attacks from overpowered elemental type that has absurd neutral coverage and super effective on some rather crucial typing in the game. I never though water as a "hyper Offensive" team. My RD team still use support not that overhyped 5 SwSw team. My Supported RD team goal is to like Team Pride and Prejudice in RMT in which it focus on spam Dragon, this on spam Water which clearly more powerful than old spam dragon in Rain as proven by kyogre and Palkia in ubers. Supported variants is better since you can fill hole to have some summon counter(Virizion), Natts, Scizor(come in handy) etc

While physical Kdra might be some kind of interesting, never forget waterfall from kingdra with usualy full speed (unboosted) does pitiful damage unlike you might be expecting it to do as proven by flygon's outrage and you need more turn to set up duing which special k-dra can spam . In other side, Specs Dra DM and HP is absurdly powerful in the rain, and seeing all you need is those 2, you see how great Specsdra in the rain is compared to physical one.

Prediction wise, the only time k-dra need to predict is against w absorber seeing no thing not named blissey can take repeated Hydro Pump from K-Dra, this also apply to every "strong" Swift swimmer (no not that floatzel waterfall or luvdisc specs surf etc) such as Kabutops with LO, or Cb etc

 

[shrang]

I don't understand why you keep repeating this, it doesn't make any sense.

Okay, here's two examples to explain it more carefully:

1) Slaking has no technical counters, yet not broken in any means
2) Soul Dew Latias is hard countered by Blissey, but is considered broken

 

[astrohawke]

Not that I'm agreeing with you that using another weather variant is essential to use against other weather variants to win, but I'd love for you to humor me with an explanation as to why a rain vs sand based metagame would be "not so good for it."

The only objective measure that can be used to monitor a metagames "health" is its battle statistics. How frequently and consistently the player base plays that particular tier. Telling me something as subjective as that doesn't explain to me how people will refuse to play that particular metagame. It just expresses to me your personal disposition of having to involve yourself and compete in said environment.

Read Smogon's definition of a desirable metagame here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515

The metagame should have a variety of viable strategies. Sand vs Rain metagame does not promote variety.

The metagame should be balanced. Rain is better than non-weather teams and makes them very difficult to use against it. While it can be argued sand is also too good, normal teams can still go toe to toe with sand as seen in gen 4.

While physical Kdra might be some kind of interesting, never forget waterfall from kingdra with usualy full speed (unboosted) does pitiful damage unlike you might be expecting it to do as proven by flygon's outrage and you need more turn to set up duing which special k-dra can spam . In other side, Specs Dra DM and HP is absurdly powerful in the rain, and seeing all you need is those 2, you see how great Specsdra in the rain is compared to physical one.

Draco meteor on kingdra is not that good. Most teams are already prepared for DMs coming from mence and latios. I suppose specs kingdra is usable if you're not running special ludicolo but if you are it's redundant imo. If they can wall ludicolo then specs kingdra is likely to be just as walled. If they can't wall ludicolo, then ludicolo will sweep them. Although I can't think of much that can wall ludi atm except for blissey/chansey.

The beauty of DD kingdra is that it's very easy to set up and use. You basically DD while they switch/attack/status/do whatever until you're about to die, then you chesto rest and now you're sweeping with +3 outrages and waterfalls in rain which btw can kill nattorei if it's at like 80% HP.

 

[JSND]

Ummm this is more easy like this since shrangs example is too lopsided

Groudon can be countered by weezing. he burn it and take little damage from SE
More better, Cresselia take pitiful damage, moonlight to recover and ice beam to death.blah3x and claydol counter him too

However, he has 150 base attack, 140 defense, sun, great around stats, insane movepool, one of the best Sr user in the game, can take 2 Ray Outrage, insane suppoter, can T-Wave, and as a sweeper he Sr resist and unwaveable and finally hes unpredictability level is very high.

Is it broken ? no explanation needed to say its clearly too broken

Then you say

Mence is uncounterable, has intimidate, no safe switch in sice most get 2HKO by dual dragon spam, and excellent movepool and stats. Nothing can stop him by walling due to his massively insane power. his DD set shit up things with Outrage and can easily demolish team.

Is it broken(as of now) ? not really

Show how uncounterable pokemon can be not broken while countered one can be

@ above : using DD Dra is harder in this meta than using Specsdra which even with Ludi has immediate power so high you wont care a lot about redundant issue. In fact, if im actualy using Ludi, i WILL always use specs dra due to their somehow awesome synergy they have beetwen each other. What stop specsdra not named bliss is stopped by Ludi. They have near perfect offensive partnership which forms offensive terror thats hard to stop. The final slot always goes to tops to me tbh.
Also DD dra can be forced to outrage easily many time. Seeing how weak his outrage is without boost, i still find specs dra more threatening in rain. Not saying DD Dra is worse but i found Specs Dra more dangerous now.

I know DM from Dra is weak, but HP isnt. In fact, HP is my biggest reason to use specsdra since his HP power is plain absurd. Not too many team is prepared for DM from Latios let alone Mence(which is so rare you wouldnt see 10 mence in 100 match these days) these days since many team is more weak against Latios more than not (they prepare for Dory for your reference isntead)

However while DM from usualy stronger than Mence (specs. Heloooooo) K-Dra is just deadly enough to be used, HP raw destructive power can be compared to those of Latios meteor(its stronger for crying out loud) making it a high level of threats as shown by my experience using specdra in gen 4.

 

[Ulevo]

Read Smogon's definition of a desirable metagame here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515

That thread didn't define anything in stone. It was meant to set in motion a discussion to help shape a more concrete vision of what the Smogon community desired, to which it never really came to an absolute conclusion. Citing it as a fact isn't reflective of what players who are playing the metagame actually feels is acceptable and competitive, so I don't know why you would.

Also, the metagame is still evolving, with or without our political intervention. You do not need to use either weather variant to win, nor will you automatically lose if you refrain from using either, which by definition would have constituted broken. There are room for other strategies and teams.

 

[astrohawke]

That thread didn't define anything in stone. It was meant to set in motion a discussion to help shape a more concrete vision of what the Smogon community desired, to which it never really came to an absolute conclusion. Citing it as a fact isn't reflective of what players who are playing the metagame actually feels is acceptable and competitive, so I don't know why you would.

No one is citing anything as fact. The thread shows what the smogon community desires in a good metagame. You asked why a sand vs rain metagame would be bad and that's why because no variety and poor balance is not desirable.

Also, the metagame is still evolving, with or without our political intervention. You do not need to use either weather variant to win, nor will you automatically lose if you refrain from using either, which by definition would have constituted broken. There are room for other strategies and teams.

Not according to the majority of the people who are actually testing teams in the current metagame. Without using things that are considered gimmicky, a non-weather team has very little chance of beating rain when matched up against a player of equal skill.

You need to stop talking in absolutes. Can a non-weather team beat rain? Yes. Can a weather team lose against normal teams? Yes. But your chances of winning are much better using rain because it's better.

I challenge you to come up with a non-weather team that can simultaneously deal with swift swim sweepers as well as other commonly seen OU threats. I guarantee you it's not possible. You either have to devote half your team to handle rain threats and open it up to other threats or you have a team that can handle OU threats but is then easily torn apart by swift swim sweepers.

 

[JSND]

TBH i found that even without swift swimmer, hydra you name it, rain is still broken.
I mean were talking about water type. Even after nattrei is introduced in this meta, we know how big of an asset water type is. Water spamming in rain is still insane tbh

 

[phalanx]

i run scarf ninetails, it hits fast and hard :P
and we are all going on about how rain is better, then why is nearly every battle <generic sandstorm team>?
i run sun and as a result run a lead to deal with the stupid drizzletoad (gallade with mean look and t-punch) which also deals with Ttar and ninetails as well :P
the problem lies in once, weather is there... you can only change it to stop the other team, there is nothing to remove it exepct for rayquaza. i dont see rain as a problem, i see the sandstorm as the problem with its TWO bulky setup pokes.
but banning drizzle? if drizzle gets banned that leaves sandstorm to stomp all over the metagame, which it will, i see far more sand then rain already, so what then? will ttar and hippo get banned when/if sand becomes overpowered, or just the overpowered pokes. for me if you ban drizzle and not the OP rain users then same rules should apply for all weathers.

 

[alphatron]

SJCrew, in your experience, where has sun shown itself to be broken? Does sun share a "core" of speedy sweepers that are unstoppable by one pokemon as rain has apparently shown? Does the added coverage of hidden power allow them to become ultimately uncounterable? Do you have to run "bad" or otherwise "useless" pokemon in order to counter a sun team? I am asking sincerely, as I am a sun user and while I believe sun to be a viable weather, I do not see it steamrolling all and every strategy with relative ease.