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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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As I said, Victreebel does reasonably well against Rain
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feel free to correct me if you are wrong but does'nt Victreebel need sun up to successfully handle rain? With 80/65/60 defences I doubt that it can handle rain as well as you claim. Sure it has Sucker Punch but with its poor defensive stats then its struggling to switch in (especially when pretty much any Rain abuser has a move that can OHKO it or at least cripple the blasted thing). If you are running a weather inducer just so you can check and beat rain easier (while still doing well vs other non rain teams) then something is wrong.


I am aware that Sun Teams can win vs some Rain teams but in all seriousness if we have to run weather inducers to have a chance vs other teams then I believe its over-centralisation. Yes I myself have managed to run a team without a weather inducer (therefore yes I have a few "specialised pokemon" that still stacks up well vs Rain however it loses its viability against other dangerous threats in the Gen 5 Metagame. I think that Rain forces you to devote a few slots on your team just to check it if you don't run weather.

EDIT
Please tell me, how is your "carrying 3 counters to rain" any different from 4th Gens idea of carrying checks to most dangerous pokemon which most certainly took up at least three spots.
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Because if you are running 3 Counters to Rain them you are limiting your flexability to other, non rain teams. In Gen 4 Scarf Jirachi was a decent check to top ranking pokemon. However its much harder to do something like this vs rain since they hit so hard and are almost impossiable to revenge kill.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Everyone may have to run them but not necessarily to counter rain. As I've said, this generation is based around weather and we have to adapt to that ideally without banning things. I Rain is the strongest weather right now does that meaan it should be broken? No, it means that teams need to be prepared for it. It is the same as in 4th Gen when every team was prepared with a check for Scizor and heatran so that they didn't get swept.

Please tell me, how is your "carrying 3 counters to rain" any different from 4th Gens idea of carrying checks to most dangerous pokemon which most certainly took up at least three spots. it is called centralisation which is necssary for a metagme as outlined by Doug and others. Right now Rain is centralising, not over centralising and in my opinion not overpowered. Is weather overcentalising? Perhaps, but that is far too braod a group to call overcentralising as it encompasses at least 6 different playstyles (4 offenses and 2 stalls).
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People have to run them...JUST for rain.
You don't need a weather inducer for Sun,Sand,or lolHail.
If we run only weather,you kill balance.
Why not just nerf Rain a bit by removing its Trio?
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Everyone may have to run them but not necessarily to counter rain. As I've said, this generation is based around weather and we have to adapt to that ideally without banning things. I Rain is the strongest weather right now does that meaan it should be broken? No, it means that teams need to be prepared for it. It is the same as in 4th Gen when every team was prepared with a check for Scizor and heatran so that they didn't get swept.

Please tell me, how is your "carrying 3 counters to rain" any different from 4th Gens idea of carrying checks to most dangerous pokemon which most certainly took up at least three spots. it is called centralisation which is necssary for a metagme as outlined by Doug and others. Right now Rain is centralising, not over centralising and in my opinion not overpowered. Is weather overcentalising? Perhaps, but that is far too braod a group to call overcentralising as it encompasses at least 6 different playstyles (4 offenses and 2 stalls).
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i really think manaphy + kingdra r problams on rain beyond that rain isn't that bad.
also it is 9 playstyles not 6:
3 offense (sand, rain, + sun)
3 balanced (again sand, rain, + sun)
3 stall (hail, rain, + sand)
 
ginganinja said:
feel free to correct me if you are wrong but does'nt Victreebel need sun up to successfully handle rain? With 80/65/60 defences I doubt that it can handle rain as well as you claim. Sure it has Sucker Punch but with its poor defensive stats then its struggling to switch in (especially when pretty much any Rain abuser has a move that can OHKO it or at least cripple the blasted thing). If you are running a weather inducer just so you can check and beat rain easier (while still doing well vs other non rain teams) then something is wrong.


I am aware that Sun Teams can win vs some Rain teams but in all seriousness if we have to run weather inducers to have a chance vs other teams then I believe its over-centralisation. Yes I myself have managed to run a team without a weather inducer (therefore yes I have a few "specialised pokemon" that still stacks up well vs Rain however it loses its viability against other dangerous threats in the Gen 5 Metagame. I think that Rain forces you to devote a few slots on your team just to check it if you don't run weather.
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I wont deny that but I think i addressed the overcentralisation issue in the post above.

Also @ fidgety i was treating it as the 4 offenses and then Sand and Hail stall. You dont really have balance on a weather team and Rain Stall is ridiculous.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
I wont deny that but I think i addressed the overcentralisation issue in the post above.

Also @ fidgety i was treating it as the 4 offenses and then Sand and Hail stall. You dont really have balance on a weather team and Rain Stall is ridiculous.
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Uhh,that wasn't really anything new. If you read the rest of the thread,you'll see that lots of other people have said the same thing.
Face it,drizzle is over centralizing and should either be nerfed a bit by banning the Trio or just banned.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
I wont deny that but I think i addressed the overcentralisation issue in the post above.

Also @ fidgety i was treating it as the 4 offenses and then Sand and Hail stall. You dont really have balance on a weather team and Rain Stall is ridiculous.
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no u can't have it in the present meta w/ rain offence as strong as it is.
 
astrohawke said:
Why must people take things so literally. There are 4 pokemon that can use mach punch in OU. I'm sure I can come up with 4 OU counters to kyogre too. Blissey, Latias, Quagsire, Ludicolo. It doesn't change the fact that you're suggesting a team should carry 1 of these pokemon to deal with the threat. And given all the other pokemon that also have really few counters, you can see what the problem with trying to not get swept by at least 1 of them is.

Need I also mention that mach punchers are not a counter, it's a revenge killer. Meaning something like Terrakion doesn't set up on the mach puncher, it sets up on the thing that it kills before your mach puncher comes in.
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There are 6 pokes that can use Mach Punch in OU, there are 4 OU pokes that can use MP. Also, have fun countering Kyogre with Latios, Quagsire, and Ludicolo (hint: Kyogre has this thing called a movepool)
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Everyone may have to run them but not necessarily to counter rain. As I've said, this generation is based around weather and we have to adapt to that ideally without banning things. I Rain is the strongest weather right now does that meaan it should be broken? No, it means that teams need to be prepared for it. It is the same as in 4th Gen when every team was prepared with a check for Scizor and heatran so that they didn't get swept.

Please tell me, how is your "carrying 3 counters to rain" any different from 4th Gens idea of carrying checks to most dangerous pokemon which most certainly took up at least three spots. it is called centralisation which is necssary for a metagme as outlined by Doug and others. Right now Rain is centralising, not over centralising and in my opinion not overpowered. Is weather overcentalising? Perhaps, but that is far too braod a group to call overcentralising as it encompasses at least 6 different playstyles (4 offenses and 2 stalls).
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Nonsense, this generation doesn't have to be about weather if we choose for it not to be. We dont have to tolerate drizzle just as we chose not to tolerate a bunch of other stuff like evasion or whatever.
 
But why should we choose it not to be? In all previous generations we have adapted to what has come to us in the games. I outlined anything else I'll say in my post at the top of the page but basically it says why then are we not adapting now?
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
But why should we choose it not to be? In all previous generations we have adapted to what has come to us in the games. I outlined anything else I'll say in my post at the top of the page but basically it says why then are we not adapting now?
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In all previous generations we banned shit that overcentralized the metagame too much or things that we thought were too broken, WHY?, cause we didnt like that.

Permanent Rain is no different.

Seriously, people need to stop spreading this fairy tale that itl just go back to being gen 4-light without drizzle, thats a fallacy, there are new pokemon and items and there is Drought (which isnt broken), its a different meta do adapt to and no, drizzle doesn't have to be a part of it.
 
RE centralisation in Gen 4

Like I stated above. In Gen 4 you could include a few pokemon in your team to check the top threats. Heatran could handle Jirachi, Grass types, Gyarados could check Luke, Infernape. You could run these pokemon and not limit your teams versatility. In Gen 4 you could run these pokemon, check those threats and have those pokemon still be usable on your team even when those said threats were not on your opponents team.

However in the current Gen 5 metagame it is no longer possible to do this. Instead you have to dedicate a few spots on your team soley to counter a playstyle and still include a few pokemon to prevent Specs Latios, Dory, etc from smashing through you. Its exceptionally difficult to achieve this so many people run a weather inducer to both check Weather and still have space to check other Gen 5 Threats.
 
ginganinja said:
RE centralisation in Gen 4

Like I stated above. In Gen 4 you could include a few pokemon in your team to check the top threats. Heatran could handle Jirachi, Grass types, Gyarados could check Luke, Infernape. You could run these pokemon and not limit your teams versatility. In Gen 4 you could run these pokemon, check those threats and have those pokemon still be usable on your team even when those said threats were not on your opponents team.

However in the current Gen 5 metagame it is no longer possible to do this. Instead you have to dedicate a few spots on your team soley to counter a playstyle and still include a few pokemon to prevent Specs Latios, Dory, etc from smashing through you. Its exceptionally difficult to achieve this so many people run a weather inducer to both check Weather and still have space to check other Gen 5 Threats.
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Thank you. I have been saying this time and time again. Drizzle cannot be countered without hampering your team when fighting non-drizzle teams
 
I'm sorry but when did I ever say anything to that effect? Part of my argument was that there are pokemon that can counter rain that people will say are terrible but have a use on a certain team. Please try to actually read my posts. Anyway I've made my points and I wont engage in mindless nattering so I'll probably post back in about 30 pages which will probably be by the end of the week given how fast this thread moves.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
I'm sorry but when did I ever say anything to that effect? Part of my argument was that there are pokemon that can counter rain that people will say are terrible but have a use on a certain team. Please try to actually read my posts. Anyway I've made my points and I wont engage in mindless nattering so I'll probably post back in about 30 pages which will probably be by the end of the week given how fast this thread moves.
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What poke can be useful on a team, but still counter Drizzle?
 
masterful said:
Thank you. I have been saying this time and time again. Drizzle cannot be countered without hampering your team when fighting non-drizzle teams
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strange how my ho sand team doesn't struggle w/ non-weather teams while still handleing rain unless i'm:
1. outplayed + my prediction is very good.
2. have a large amount of hax working against me.
 
masterful said:
Your opponents probably suck. What's your team?
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deoxys-s
tar
dory
chomp
gar
boltolosu
i'm giving my beta server ranking score just since that's the 1 i have actually had real time to work on 1368 capped @ 1460ish.
smogon i haven't worked on nearly as much 1172 + rising.
also a few big names i've beaten kevin garret (not sure if i spelled it right), panamaxis i'm 1-1, 1-1 w/ rayscarface from lab (don't bother asking since as of when would they remember battling a "no name") so yah u can't say i'm a weak battler.
 
fidgety said:
i really think manaphy + kingdra r problams on rain beyond that rain isn't that bad.
also it is 9 12 playstyles not 6:
4 offense (sand, rain, hail thanks to Kyurem+ sun)
4 balanced (again sand, again hail thanks to both Kyurem and Stallrein, rain, + sun)
4 stall (hail, sun [I've heard of it somewhere...], rain, + sand)
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Fixed.
 
masterful said:
What poke can be useful on a team, but still counter Drizzle?
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There are plenty of options - unfortunately many (all/the most efficient?) of those options revolve around changing the weather (which I do believe was your initial point?).

EDIT: Basically any Pokemon that would normally be ran on said team (i.e Unaware Quagsire), but would dedicate a slot to Hail (as an example) because that is literally the most efficient way to deal with opposing weather: to change and or eliminate the opponent's weather.
 
I dono about you guys, but I'm actually finding the speed that water/sand gain to be pretty easy to match/beat.

I started on my team running a max speed kingdra. Kills most kingdra as they're modest, and can use a rain team as setup. Also carries rain dance so I can counter ttar/ninetails without even switching out.

I also started testing blaziken. With all of these wimpy weather leads coming first, I can easily get a +2 passed to a poke with more base speed and power than whatever weather breakers are currently up (i prefer tek, as he gets to almost 700 speed and can ohko almost every frail sweeper). And with the new system, if they have a misch heart, i just put mine first and make sure it has the fastest possible taunt.

Agility on landlos also does wonders, putting him just over 600 speed and outrunning most abusers.

While everyone else is worried about weather threats, these type of things can pretty reliably counter them all. I also like to keep a breloom around to stop stall... but getting that breloom a +3 speed means he can sleep almost anything, and then just sweep.

Weather is set in its ways, so use it's weaknesses against it. These type of counters work far better than bulky walls.

I'm not saying that I'm against or for any bans yet... just wanted to say that the strategies are out there to make a near perfect anti-weather team while still maintaining usefulness of each member of the team... and without using your own auto weather ^^.

Personally I think something should probably get banned... but i'm still a bit fuzzy on just what to do. Until then, be creative. See if you can un-break what everyone else is calling broken. I know I certainly have... I haven't lost to a weather team in a long time- its the normal teams that are hard fights again.
 
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