Then why can I still have an Octillery on my team? Then why hasn't my Bibarel been banned?There's no excuse to keep a broken pokemon in OU for whatever reason; that would go against basically, all of smogon policy.
Inconsistent's luck factor was a major influence in it getting banned, however. I believe smogon policy stresses that the skill-factor of a metagame is more important than if the metagame is overcentralized, so Inconsistent's treatment is based more on its most adverse effect, the removal of a major amount of skill in favor of sheer luck, rather than the secondary effect of centralizing the metagame.Then why can I still have an Octillery on my team? Then why hasn't my Bibarel been banned?
I'm not disagreeing with your side, cuz I don't even know what I want anymore. I'm just saying that you made a ridiculous statement.
And that, again, is restricting a broken pokemon to keep it balanced, instead of banning it, which goes against smogon policy; it would simply be as absurd as just banning Yache berry and/or Sword Dance on 4th gen Garchomp, as those are also the reasons that if removed, would let Garchomp be balanced.Unless of course, the reason that they are broken can be banned instead of the Pokemon themselves, who, are, without this reason, not broken.
Just noticed your colossal edit. Anyway, I used gen 5 as an example. Before drizzle was around. In rain, Swift swim was not overpowering. Kingdra ludi and kabu didn't even barely get play. Drizzle made a huge 180, giving a normal, balanced strategy power it could only have imagined before.Alright, it's hard to tell from your reply, so let me get this straight.
Do you understand I'm attacking BOTH a Drizzle ban AND a Swift Swim ban?
We went over this already....
You directed me to this post at least once before, and I responded it once before, and we came to an agreement already. I'll find the post if you want me to, it's in the last 15 pages or something.
And I already went over how I vehemently disagree on Gen IV standards being used for Gen V bans.
To recap, it doesn't matter what order the support, the abuser, the w/e came in. It doesn't matter if something wasn't broken before. In the characteristics of an Uber, there is no clause that states, "BTW, if a pokemon was UU in the gen before, these characteristics don't apply."
And finally, once again, both a Drizzle ban and a Swift Swim ban restrict indiscriminately, hurting both what is broken and what isn't. On the other hand, the idea of a non-rain Kingdra being banned indiscriminately is as absurd of an idea as a non-broken special-sweeping Garchomp being banned indiscriminately when SD Garchomp was found to be broken.
Edit:
Some stuff I missed:
That hardly justifies restricting it when there is an alternative that doesn't hurt it at all.
This is basically the polar opposite of the other counterargument I've heard: That the lesser swift swim sweepers will rise up and become broken as well.
Clearly, if people believe that the remaining sweepers could either potentially rise up ALL the way to Uber or never rise above UU, there is a much more significant, likely event where they actually end up somewhere in the middle, where they rise up to become viable, but don't suddenly end up in Uber.
Either way, both such arguments are basically attacking the most extreme, unlikely scenario, either of which would still result in less "collateral" damage than either the Drizzle or Swift Swim bans.
And it doesn't matter if Kingdra and co gained power or were given power; if they're too powerful, that's that.Just noticed your colossal edit. Anyway, I used gen 5 as an example. Before drizzle was around. In rain, Swift swim was not overpowering. Kingdra ludi and kabu didn't even barely get play. Drizzle made a huge 180, giving a normal, balanced strategy power it could only have imagined before.
Hippo/T-tar also unlock Dory and Randorosu, but that is clearly not reason to ban Sand Stream, nor would the parallel circumstance in rain be a reason to ban Drizzle.You guys seem to think that drizzle is some kind of Key or something that unlocks swift swimmers... Turns out that is a perfect reason to support ban it. Banning a pokemon for one of its 2-3 abilities is unprecidented, especially if it has been balanced in the past in gen 5 (before drizzle). Wob was banned because he only got shadow tag, with no other ability. Banning an ability has happened with inconsistent, an ability that was clearly broken on clearly not broken pokemon. But that ability was broken by itself on all users, which swift swim obviously isn't.
The pokemon are the same? A BL Pokemon that appeared sometimes on teams and could easily be walled is the same as the one that forces people to carry 1 out of 2-3 actual counters now?Yet we all can agree that Drizzle makes swift swim powerful. We see a gen 5 without drizzle that had no rain power whatsoever, showing that clearly the swift swim ability isn't breaking the individual pokemon that are using it (as they are normally paralyzed, killed , or forced out). So, swift swim AND the pokemon that use them aren't broken by themselves... but then Drizzle comes in and swift swim becomes an overpowered ability? The pokemon that use it become Ubers? no. The pokemon are the same. You just get to use them in a stronger, more versatile, and much longer lasting way.
Argument by analogy only works if the analogy is valid. Banning move tutors ruins dozens of sets, along with any strategies built around those sets, while the only thing that really needs infinite rain is rain stall, which doesn't seem to be very popular anyway. However, to continue your analogy, Salamence without Outrage wouldn't be broken, and its other sets could be a part of other strategies, but those sets were also banned as an unfortunate side effect.Consider this:
Imagine if Salamence was only broken last gen because of Outrage. Imagine also that no other Pokemon that had Outrage was broken. Finally, imagine if we considered banning Platinum move tutors because Salamence got Outrage from them and was broken because of it. We wouldn't do that though, because other Pokemon benefit from move tutors, such as Scizor with Bullet Punch. We also wouldn't ban Outrage, since Outrage is fine on everything else that has it. We would ban Salamence, since Outrage broke it.
It's pretty much the same idea with our situation (with "broken Rain Pokemon X" instead of "Salamence", "Drizzle" instead of "Platinum move tutors", and "Rain benefits/Swift Swim" instead of "Outrage") except there are more Salamence-like Pokemon.
This is basically what Xien Zo is suggesting to my understanding.
I know that Salamence wasn't only broken by Outrage; I'm just trying to give an example that might make it easier to comprehend.
I never claimed Rain is broken. Don't put words in my mouth. I've have always been arguing under the premise that the abusers are what's broken.Claiming that Rain is broken even without Drizzle is absolutely ludicrous, and claiming that the only reason we think that is because of our experiences in Gen 4, and refusing to acknowledge the difficulty of using Rain without Drizzle, are equally preposterous.
Really, then how all of a sudden are they uncounterable? With every pokemon that ever existed still being in the metagame?Literally these teams were not broken until the day drizzle was released. Period.
Rain isn't broken, the abusers are. Consider that. If you mean Rain as a Strategy, then most definitely not. But I've never asserted that it was. What I'm saying, and what I have always said, is that the abusers, when under rain, are broken; no matter what kind of Rain it is.Now, can you honestly say that rain without Drizzle would be broken in OU?
Now you're the one asserting that Rain is the problem? Am I in Bizarro world?Then rain is the problem, not the abusers.
Really. So if the abusers didn't exist, rain would be broken? Because that's what you're saying when you say Rain is broken, rather than the abuser. I mean, when I hear abuser, I don't think that the thing getting abused is at fault, do you?Because in normal battle conditions the abusers aren't broken, yet as soon as rain comes into play they're broken. Idk about you but to me the broken part is clear.
Because of the nature of rain itself, in addition to the coverage of water types. There's also more to it than that. You get Steels/Grasses/Bugs(fwiw) with a reduced Fire weakness, and Electric types get a stab perfect acc. Thunder with no drawbacks. Suddenly, that list of "rain abusers" is must larger than you think.i just want to ask the people that oppose the banning of the broken sweepers(ludicolo,kabutops,kingdra) instead of drizzle,why they say that more rain sweepers are going to become overpowered and eventually break the metagame again?why are you saying that agility subpetaya empoleon,specs starmie etc will break the metagame?have you tested it?i don't think so...
ro has been on the edge of serious hate because of the abuse that everyone does to rain teams...everyone makes an easy built team with rain sweepers(mainly toxicroak,ludicolo,kabutops,kingdra)and takes easy wins without much thought(although that doesn't happen higher on the ladder but anyway).Because of the nature of rain itself, in addition to the coverage of water types. There's also more to it than that. You get Steels/Grasses/Bugs(fwiw) with a reduced Fire weakness, and Electric types get a stab perfect acc. Thunder with no drawbacks. Suddenly, that list of "rain abusers" is must larger than you think.
And if we end up killing rain offense and rain stall, then so be it. If you haven't been following the thread, RO has been on the edge of some serious hate, so I think that would be more of a joy to most players than a blow. And rain stall is just nothing but a fancy argument made for the purpose of preserving Drizzle (let's face it, would you really run it on a good day?). I'd imagine it can't be that hard to live without.
I believe that you are missing the point. When a rain abuser switchs in (ill use Kingdra as an example) under rain its ability kicks in and (if it has swift swim) it gets a speed boost. Many Rain abusers get a Double STAB boost while also in the rain. So under Rain its very easy to get an insanely fast and very hard hitting pokemon to blast through your opponents team.Rain isn't broken, the abusers are. Consider that. If you mean Rain as a Strategy, then most definitely not. But I've never asserted that it was. What I'm saying, and what I have always said, is that the abusers, when under rain, are broken; no matter what kind of Rain it is.
i like how you are using 2 of the four rain suspects for this + then turn around and say that even without them rain will still be broken when it will have other pokes that don't do the job as well but still do the job well enough but without being broken.I believe that you are missing the point. When a rain abuser switchs in (ill use Kingdra as an example) under rain its ability kicks in and (if it has swift swim) it gets a speed boost. Many Rain abusers get a Double STAB boost while also in the rain. So under Rain its very easy to get an insanely fast and very hard hitting pokemon to blast through your opponents team.
This is the Move itself (since technically it is Drizzle giving an auto Rain dance upon entry) giving you those boosts. Swift Swim, Hydration all activate when RAIN is active. The abilities are essentually useless without Rain. Even ignoring the abilities that Rain affects remember that key double Stab hitting everything not resistant to Water extremely hard and allowing pokemon to muscle through counters with that extra power. For example Kabutops without Rain gets walled even by Skarmory. Stone Edge will never 2KO Defensive versions with SR. However, in the Rain Kabutops has about a 60% chance to 2KO and removing your physical wall from the game.
Bottom Line its Rain which triggers the abilities and gives the STAB boosts (and everything else it brings to the table) which affects the brokenness of things not the other way round.
no i'm sick of saying this if the support characteristic applied all rain absers would be broken not just a small handful rain offense however is broken because some of the abusers are the handful that is pushed over the edge. before anyone argues rain stall isn't good, in a heavily offensive meta stall struggles even well established stall cores so a stall play-style that hasn't had an opportunity to establish itself is liable to be ignored until there is an occasion in which offense isn't as overpowering. not used doesn't necessarily mean bad.The only problem is infinite rain. It makes lots of pokes (and not only swift swim ones) broken, and impossible to stop without a sand team or a rain team, unless you have 4/5 anti rd pokes (then u get destroyed by sand).
Drizzle is Uber because the support characteristic
We are not banning sand itself because there are other playstyles around that benefit from infinite sand, and there are currently far fewer abusers. As for rain, it is somewhat ambiguous what the best abusers are, and the are definitely overcentralizing. In any case, Doryuuzu is being banned because it breaks sand, not the other way around.This is true.
Those pokemon weren't broken until Drizzle was released. And it was only since Drizzle was released, they've become broken.
And guess what? We ban broken pokemon. "Became" broken, "made" broken, "forced to become" broken, no matter HOW it became broken, they're broken now. There's no excuse to keep a broken pokemon in OU for whatever reason; that would go against basically, all of smogon policy.
Do people not read my posts when they reply to them or something? (not aimed at you in particular.)
Ahem, basically, the base of my argument is, normally, for suspect testing, we find what pokemon are causing overcentralization. Find them, test them, and possibly ban them depending on the results.
So, why do we give a different treatment to rain sweepers? Those pokemon (Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops) shouldn't be treated differently if the normal suspect testing system still works on them.
And it's also a matter of not creating a double standard; we're testing Dory in sand, not Sand Stream. As a matter of fact, we've already BANNED Manaphy under the normal suspect testing. Having a Drizzle/Swift Swim ban would be treating the trio (Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops) differently from other suspects for fairly arbitrary reasons. (They were UU BEFORE? Drizzle/Swift Swim ban would work anyway, so why not randomly change to those?)
Finally, we have the fact that Drizzle/Swift Swim bans cause collateral damage. There are plenty of rain abusers and swift swimmers that are viable but not broken, but those pokemon would be penalized not for being OP, but for some other random 3 pokemon being OP. Meanwhile, with a normal pokemon ban, the only "collateral damage" you could argue is that a non-rain version of Kingdra and co would be banned unfairly, but that's basically claiming that a walling version of Deoxys-A got banned unfairly; it's simply absurd, we measure if a pokemon is broken from the BEST it can do, not how well it can do with a few restrictions.
More than a 60%, after Swords Dance unless Skarmory has Sturdy, it can ohko with Stealth Rock damage or other (92.31%). Floatzel can 2 hit ko after Bulk Up (and come on, Waterfall flinch is quite possible with that speed), Qwilfish 2 hit ko, etc.I believe that you are missing the point. When a rain abuser switchs in (ill use Kingdra as an example) under rain its ability kicks in and (if it has swift swim) it gets a speed boost. Many Rain abusers get a Double STAB boost while also in the rain. So under Rain its very easy to get an insanely fast and very hard hitting pokemon to blast through your opponents team.
This is the Move itself (since technically it is Drizzle giving an auto Rain dance upon entry) giving you those boosts. Swift Swim, Hydration all activate when RAIN is active. The abilities are essentually useless without Rain. Even ignoring the abilities that Rain affects remember that key double Stab hitting everything not resistant to Water extremely hard and allowing pokemon to muscle through counters with that extra power. For example Kabutops without Rain gets walled even by Skarmory. Stone Edge will never 2KO Defensive versions with SR. However, in the Rain Kabutops has about a 60% chance to 2KO and removing your physical wall from the game.
Bottom Line its Rain which triggers the abilities and gives the STAB boosts (and everything else it brings to the table) which affects the brokenness of things not the other way round.
wow so if there are poke(s)that breaks sand i should be banned but if there poke(s) that break rain, rain should be banned that is a horrible double standard + just because they aren't used doesn't mean that other rain styles don't exist most styles of sand based play have been already established that is not the case for rain + this approach is preventing them from being established.We are not banning sand itself because there are other playstyles around that benefit from infinite sand, and there are currently far fewer abusers. As for rain, it is somewhat ambiguous what the best abusers are, and the are definitely overcentralizing. In any case, Doryuuzu is being banned because it breaks sand, not the other way around.