np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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lmitchell0012 said:
Lugia actually has some pretty hard counters, believe it or not. Lileep is by far the best, due to suction cups. It also has worry seed to prevent lugia from sleep stalling. However, he needs rest if he wants to win the toxic stalling war.
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Oddly enough Lileep+Evo Stone+Sandstorm boost can tank an attacking Lugia's hits very very easily (even critical hit Aeroblasts unless they've got 4+Calm Minds to back it up) but really, how often are you going to see a Lileep in OU? 'Tis possible and some people love to specialize in the UU and Underevolved pokes but on the whole, I doubt Lileep is going to be widespread or going to remotely come close to being a reason for Lugia to come down to OU. Lugia with Toxic destroys that Lileep (unless it Rests but then Lileep is bait for anything else to come in) and it can carry Safe Guard or Substitute over Rest/Sleep Talk (and stop Lileep from doing anything since the only way it can really attack is through Toxic). Lugia will more likely PP war stall you then and Lileep while able to take on the attacking variants, can't really do anything to it besides Toxic (which any poke can Toxic). And like Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Ludicolo being good counters to Kyogre does not make Kyogre OU, so does...Lileep and the other very few things that actually can do something to Lugia. Which really isn't much.

And Chansey/Blissey are much less common than they used to be, especially Blissey which used to be a staple in Gen 4 (and pretty close to is in Uber if you're not carrying something else) but is only on a few teams in Gen 5 and again, Lugia can pp war stall Blissey/Chansey via Rest/Sleep Talk, Substitute, or Safeguard. They can't do anything to Lugia.
 
Gah777 said:
So without Swift Swim and Manaphy is rain still as threatening as before? I feel I think perma-rain might start drifting towards rain stall or bulky offense. Opinions?

Has anyone tried out Sniper Kingdra? I've tried a bulkier Focus Energy set but found it to be rather mediocre.
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Well, things like Starmie, Rotom-W, and DD (sniper) Kingdra would definetley still enjoy the massive boost to their STAB. I still don't like facing Drizzle Offense, tbh.
 
voodoo pimp said:
You know Garchomp isn't Uber, right? I agree with your argument, but that comment kind of hurts it.
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Yea I sorta jumped back and forth from 4th gen to 5th gen in my train of thought there. Still works though for my argument that even if a Pokemon has a counter/check, it doesn't necessarily mean it's not powerful enough to be uber.
 
And Tornelos and Voltlos are beastly in rain as well as excellent Rain Dancers if you want to still attempt certain Swift Swimmers. I think Rain is still fairly ridiculous to be certain.

I don't know about Voltlos vrs. Rotom-W. They're both very very good and Rotom-W does add much need bulk and defense. However as an attacker Voltlos seems stronger because of Nasty Plot and no longer needing to fear (as much although Swift Swimmers on the opponent's team could be difficult) as many weather pokes and being able to also carry Priority Thunderwave/Rain Dance/etc as support options. They're both useable, especially with the Washer getting double stab Hydro Pump and being able to keep Tyranitar out with the threats of Burn, being able to Screen, and attack with stab super effective pumps. Crunch no longer being supereffective also annoys it.
 
lmitchell0012 said:
So true. Well, I think I've made my point. See you tomorrow.
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He's grasping for straws and he knows it.


Seeing as we're against hax so much, I would like to call some attention to No Guard Machamp. I've been using a simple Substitute/Dynamic Punch/Stone Edge/Ice Punch set with t-wave support from Voltos, and it's disgustingly good. With the new team preview mechanic, predicting a ghost has become even easier. It's not uncommon for me to net three kills in one game. Everyone is ditching Machamp for Conkeldurr, but Champ is still here. So what is everyone's opinion of a pokemon whose success mainly comes from a 50% chance of confusion? Just for discussion.
 
Nubbins said:
He's grasping for straws and he knows it.


Seeing as we're against hax so much, I would like to call some attention to No Guard Machamp. I've been using a simple Substitute/Dynamic Punch/Stone Edge/Ice Punch set with t-wave support from Voltos, and it's disgustingly good. With the new team preview mechanic, predicting a ghost has become even easier. It's not uncommon for me to net three kills in one game. Everyone is ditching Machamp for Conkeldurr, but Champ is still here. So what is everyone's opinion of a pokemon whose success mainly comes from a 50% chance of confusion? Just for discussion.
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The 50% chance is a bonus. As you've said yourself, you already have a 100 Base Power, 100 accuracy STAB move with no drawbacks to fire off from behind a Sub. The confusion is the only "hax" involved.
 
That's my point. Thanks to guaranteed confusion, you basically have a 50% chance to get another sub up and then knock off one more pokemon and on and on and on. Basically, whether or not the opponent can break Machamp's subs or KO it all boils down to a 50% chance. Not much skill involved. Not to mention Machamp is decently bulky and can tank a hit and then sub up.
 
Machamp is a powerful threat, like it always was. Does there have to be more to it than that?

And I wouldn't say it's forgotten. I've actually seen quite a few Machamp on the Smogon ladder, almost comparable numbers to the numbers of Conkeldurr.
 
lets stop on Lugia/ho-oh kay ? some user have tried nominating Zekrom, groudon, Lugia, and Ho-oh only to get fucked away. Seriously only non uber player will say that. Okay lileep huh ?
+ 6 252 adamant LO Lileep to great wall Lugia = 171 - 201 %
+ 6 0 neutral Evo Lileep = 78.4% - 92.8%
Good luck killing Lugia

Yeah you wall him only to find your precious 4 use stone edge wont OHKO at +6

Also about counter it didint help because EVEN IN UBERS the best counter in pokemon form to Lugia is Ttar. So yeah you cant argue this out of the fuck.
 
I was the main advocate for testing ubers in OU last round (ONLY, I mean...) The only one I could see being viable is lugia, and even then it's a long shot.

I don't want to see him in OU anyway. Give latias and cresselia more love people!

I faced a rain stall team yesterday. IIRC it was poli/kingdra/ludi/skarm/forry/ferro. No swift swim, and I actually had a lot of trouble taking down the steels. I was using mienshao, CM latias, sableye, whimsicott, mamoswine and amoonguss (I think. It was a testing stuff team, which I've changed a little now, so I'm not completely sure who was on it.) Ludi was a rain dish staller with giga drain and subseed, kigdra was a DDer. His steels and my teasing hearters walled each other to hell and back with taunts, entry hazards and status. Quite a battle.

Rain is still extremely potent. Kingdra, manaphy, ludicolo and kabutops are just the tip of the iceberg.
 
JSND said:
So yeah you cant argue this out of the fuck.
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I might just sig this.

But on topic, Rain offense is still quite powerful, and Specs Starmie is every bit as annoying as in theory, hitting a bit harder than Kingdra and retaining that 115 base Speed, as well as Sharpedo with Speed Boost. Are there any other offensive rain pokemon that others have found useful?
 
If were wanting to copy Lugia by using cresselia and maybe even Latias we already know by extreme long shot that it will never work. Despite better defense overall and simmilar stats, cress dont have the ever useful pressure Roost Stalling and phazing ability that Lugia possesed and not to mention cress lacks that lovely 110 base speed to outspeed +0 terra which is a trouble in sand that make cress cry and outspeeding chomp that sometime is a thing to watch out for. Not to mention he can sweep easily

For Latias she lacks the defense and while dragon type is nice, weakness to dragon more or less kill defenisve pokemon due to how ridiculously powerful dragon move are compared to other and how hard in the term of handling dragon move when compared.
Otehrwise lets say they are simmilar.

^ so be it. Sig it. Someone sigged Torterra in OU !!!!(its epic)

Also my rain offense without swift is quite potent. CBGyara is somehow quite useful(dd gyara's better of course but i love inti waterfall with rain) and SD zor is great in rain. Not to mention Starmie too. But THE champion is Torneros. So good its awesome(credit to SJCrew for finding this BIG fact for me at least). the last two poke i used by now is natts which is boring and might get changed(yeah gengar love me now but natts hate me instead. i have no luck with many popular poke) and Torterra in gen 5 OU.
 
JT Swift said:
All three of them are walls. Are you saying that latias and cress aren't good enough for you?
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From theorymon ? maybe
From experience ? hell no. IN uber tier i at least able to use lugia to set up on countless DM, taking some insane amount of hits, stalling out zapdos Thunder PP in rain, and sweep countless time outspeeding key threats such as Palkia.

walling spectrum, i often find scizor u turn the crap freely out of my ass on cress yet on lugia they do the same to give me extra Layer damage and giving countless win.
The case happen with Latias too. Not to mention that speed(cress) has lied to me of her true defenses countless time. I have a match where cress is weakened due to attacks and SS and fall to DM Outrage combo of Mence. When Lugia face Mence in Uber, not only He take DM like a champ. He roost off and score quick OHKO with STAB ice beam, something Cress cant. He set Reflect on tar and stall his Choice SE to give extra free layer damage due to obvious switch and phaze. Also this :
The main way to beat Cresselia is to overpower her. Moonlight has limited PP, and the prevalence of sandstorm limits its effectiveness. Once Moonlight is gone, it'll only be a matter of time before Cresselia is gone too.
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Biggest reason i never like cress

On latias, Ttar take Pulse and sometime surf like champ even after 2 CM from standard Latias on Defensive CM set AND get killed by crunch easily with that bad defense in one spectrum. Then killed by countless Dm which she cant switch on to. And since im a rather hardworking fakemon maker, whenever i made a defensive poke, dragon weakness is kind of big no. Yeah it can be exploited but dragon weakness is quite hard to exploit. In the true out of my imagination meta, it is shown even more clear. lets just be real, defensive term you will use Jalorda instead of kingdra even if they have merged movepool particularly because while he only have 1 weakness, its dragon, a type that is used without concerning resistance and SE.

I tell ya for such a wall speed, PP, and ability make a huge difference.
Lugia speed allow me to beat chomp and mence and some Ttar variants.

If your saying i am making like lugia is the best pokemon ever, i am. not because i love it, its because i actualy use them both in same reason which is a wall and kind of anti-dragon. Lugia on top of that is a fast wall, and can phaze. If im talking about compatition for lugia as a wall, i can only say there are only Arceus, due to better defenses and 120 SPEED, and better movepool and Giratina which dont have reliable recovery but have same ability, can somehow take some dragon attack, and have the movepool.

Note that all those have kind of same counter. Cress has 1 a bit situational extra which is kyogre. So no they especialy cresselia is not good enough to be an all time use Ou wall. Heck i use mew rather than cress if i really want a psychic wall.
 
I see your point about lugia being different/better. You must play ubers (I don't.)

But I have to disagree with you about cresselia. I use it all the time, and its reliability is amazing. 120/120/130 are the highest balanced defensive stats you'll find outside ubers (higher than arceus (120/120/120) and only beaten by giratina-A (150/120/120.) Her typing allows her to tank fighting attacks like a brick to a feather, and she can just as easily run a specially defensive set. She can use a trickspecs set with psychic/psycho shock and ice beam, restalk psycho shift, calm mind ect. She's terrifying on sun teams with her boosted moonlight. I do wish she had access to recover though.

Max HP and defense sets are only 2HKOed by the strongest physical attacks. Reflect just makes her ridiculous.

Choice band Adamant Escavaliers megahorn vs 252 Hp 252 def Bold Cresselia behind reflect: 212 - 249 damage. 48% to 56% of 444 HP (I think that's right.)

And that's the strongest super effective attack I could think of. Hell, she has a chance of surviving without reflect.
 
Yah know, JNSD, we were almost off of the Ubers discussion until YOU brought it up again. The funny thing is you even said:

JSND said:
lets stop on Lugia/ho-oh kay ?
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Before continuing the discussion. Shame on you.

Continuing the MACHAMP discussion. Machamp would be stupidly annoying behind a sub with paralysis support from Voltalos. And for Desukan and Evo Stone Dusklops you could always pack something to deal with them. It's not like Machamp and Voltalos are going to be the only Pokes on your team.
 
The problem with cresselia is lack of reliable recovery and the ever dominant presence of Tyranitar in OU. The only set that even has a remote chance of success is psychoshifting burn and sleep with resttalk. Anything else is just pure setup bait.
 
Machamp isn't broken.
Rankurusu counters 100% of the time.
As does half of the metagame.
Roob is much more of a threat,with it's amazing bulk and power.
Lanturn does parafuse. It's not broken.
 
jonathanrp said:
Machamp isn't broken.
Rankurusu counters 100% of the time.
As does half of the metagame.
Roob is much more of a threat,with it's amazing bulk and power.
Lanturn does parafuse. It's not broken.
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You still have to hit it behind the sub which is pretty annoying.
The only 100% counter to Dynampich Punch No Guard is Own Tempo Slowbro lol. Although Regeneration Slowbro murders it as well. Confusion+Sub gets annoying every now and then though. And darn you beastly fast powerful Voltlos.

Roopushin's bulk is slightly overestimated. It's good, but not that good. And Lanturn's stats were pretty low and is outclassed by Rotom-W now in that department who has all sorts of fun tricks and stuff like Screens, Pain Split, Will-0-Wisp, Paralysis through Discharge and Thunderwave, Confuse Ray (if you're into Parafusion), Stab Thunder and Hydro Pump (gets double stabbed in rain) and is very bulky.
 
jonathanrp said:
Machamp isn't broken.
Rankurusu counters 100% of the time.
As does half of the metagame.
Roob is much more of a threat,with it's amazing bulk and power.
Lanturn does parafuse. It's not broken.
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I never said broken, I said annoying. Rankarusu also counters Roob (I'm calling him Durr from now on) pretty well. Even with max HP and SpD investment Durr's SpD is still not all that great. Plus Rank being slower makes Payback less effective, even less so if Durr had no Atk investment.
 
lol sorry then time to REALLY STOP.
Okay back to discussion
Rankurusu doesnt exactly 100 % counter neither champ was broken.
Champ is just ahrd to deal if you cant do the long term thinking to deal with it ASAP.
Also rank risk confusion hax but otherwise, well yeah he can actualy be counted as counter.
Machamp also easily lose to high power attack. As said, to counter champ, jsut hit him. He is slow so weakening him can mean history(a bit simmilar with rankurusu eh ?)
 
Not to say I support it in any way, but banning machamp (because dynamicpunch turns the ENTIRE match into clicking buttons!!!) would be completely consistent with a number of other bans that have already been made. Actually banning confusing moves in general would be, as well as paralysis-inducing ones.
 
NC said:
Not to say I support it in any way, but banning machamp (because dynamicpunch turns the ENTIRE match into clicking buttons!!!) would be completely consistent with a number of other bans that have already been made. Actually banning confusing moves in general would be, as well as paralysis-inducing ones.
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You pretty much pointed out why banning Machamp would not be in line with recent bans (inconsistent) in that it clearly does not turn the entire match into pushing buttons. Part of the reason Confusion is so little used is that you can just switch out to cure it - banning things that use it purely because it causes a 50% roll is unreasonable when you can easily remove the chance. Inconsistent was so hard to beat partly because it was hard to remove the evasion etc boosts when the opponent was behind a sub.
 
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