np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Ewil]

I HAVE and GOSH ever since i change nattrei for shubarugo, my winning rate goes into SKY HIGH position. His bulk, beast stats, ENOUGH movepool, and baiting is really benefical to my team. So much taht i can say that hes my crimgan of round 2 suspect.
BTW i use SD, Horn, Head, Pursuit with full HP full attack LO and it really work well. Carry some nattrei handler and your ready(natts cant really beat shubar though)

Bottom line, if you havent try it yet, TRY it. Used right he wont let you down with THAT beastly stats.

i'd try it with SD, Horn, Rock smash & Rain dance (it give support to my kingdra & reduce his weakness to fire) with some ev i've setup a lot of sword dance on nattorei. But the idea to use a more offensive spread isn't bad :D

 

[JSND]

Yeah you beat nattrei but he set up spikes.
Used with Rapid Spin Leftovers Dory, in other hand...

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Most bulky waters are relatively safe switches, but I don't think any of them can take a LO boosted Draco Meteor plus an Outrage, so they can't be considered counters. They are checks, and if they come in on Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast, they WILL beat Mence. Vappy, Burungeru, Swampert, most Steels, Hippowdon, etc. all check Mence. However, they do not counter him. Cresselia counters him, but is relatively useless to the rest of the team. You have to decide if you want to be able to check many threats or counter a few.

 

[Ewil]

Yeah you beat nattrei but he set up spikes.
Used with Rapid Spin Leftovers Dory, in other hand...

i forgot, Excavalier was lefty & my team have 3 pokes that take damage from spikes (including Excavalier that must be counting out the major part of the time 'coz it is always in when nat setup the spikes).
A good spinner is a good welcome btw xD

i'd try it in a random team made it for fun and it is a good surprise :D

 

[IcyMan28]

Most bulky waters are relatively safe switches, but I don't think any of them can take a LO boosted Draco Meteor plus an Outrage, so they can't be considered counters. They are checks, and if they come in on Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast, they WILL beat Mence. Vappy, Burungeru, Swampert, most Steels, Hippowdon, etc. all check Mence. However, they do not counter him. Cresselia counters him, but is relatively useless to the rest of the team. You have to decide if you want to be able to check many threats or counter a few.

Actually, Mence can use an offensive nature and EV itself to 2HKO a Cresselia with even defenses, including rocks, but that's pedantic.

How do most people feel about SD Shubarugo? Is losing the chance to nuke something with CBMegahorn really worth it considering that it will NOT be sweeping with that low speed? It just seems like a wasted turn to me.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

You dont get the chance to SD in a normal match. CB is better.

 

[Gah777]

What about a set with Rest, SD, Megahorn and Iron Head with a Chesto berry? With max HP and Attack it should be able to tank a hit or two and hit hard, especially after a SD.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Most bulky waters are relatively safe switches, but I don't think any of them can take a LO boosted Draco Meteor plus an Outrage, so they can't be considered counters. They are checks, and if they come in on Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast, they WILL beat Mence. Vappy, Burungeru, Swampert, most Steels, Hippowdon, etc. all check Mence. However, they do not counter him. Cresselia counters him, but is relatively useless to the rest of the team. You have to decide if you want to be able to check many threats or counter a few.

Most of those can't counter (and if they switch in on the wrong move even check) Salamence at all. Hippowdon and friends don't like Draco Meteor and the only bulky waters taking Adamant Dragon Dance Outrages are Swampert, Suicune, and Unaware Quagsire since even standard Vaporeon is ohkoed by +1 Life Orb Adamant Outrage. And if you think about it, is their a real reason to even use Jolly anymore considering it rarely has to worry about outspeeding itself or Flygon and base 100s are rare and few in OU, let alone those that run +speed nature with full max and after Dragon Dance, those are outsped. While I prefer bulky Dragonite as a Dancer, Salamence is still phenomenal at it, especially since it is surprising with it's dramatic fall from its former glory. Flamethrower still 2 hit koes Nattorei and pretty much everything it needs to (Doryuzu is something to look out for those as it needs a neutral nature and Fire Blast to get rid of that one on the switch before it kills you and bulkier ones can still survive) and it doesn't really have a chance once it comes in unlike Dragonite. Balloon Heatran might also put Salamence into an unfortunate situation if it still has it. Still, Salamence is a quite fearsome enemy.

I don't know about Chesto-Rest Shubargo. Seems kind of pointless to me as it's slow and kind of a waste of an item as well but I do love Swords Dance Shubargo. I'd think it be better with one or more Trick Room, Paralysis, Weather (rain to weaken fire or sun to weaken common water moves), Wish, or Screen support.

 

[masterful]

What about a set with Rest, SD, Megahorn and Iron Head with a Chesto berry? With max HP and Attack it should be able to tank a hit or two and hit hard, especially after a SD.

But with that kind of coverage, pretty much any other bulky set-up sweeper is better

 

[Yogi Bear.]

I tried Excalavier. I prefer Scizor.

It's a choice between a faster pokemon with Priority, healing, and a better movepool VS. a slower, priority weak pokemon with better defenses.

Not saying one is better than the other: I just make better use of Scizor.

 

[SlimMan]

Oh, so you were basing your argument on Salamence's brokenness in this meta-game? After 2 rounds of testing we know everything there is to know about it?

Good one.

Personally, when talking about an ideology that has spanned generations, and trying to refute an argument about what we've done historically, I like to think about those other generations, rather than just focusing on the one that is entirely unstable and unfinished. Perhaps that's just me being eccentric though.

Your argument has a flaw. Let's look at it. "Salamence's brokenness in this meta-game?"

THIS metagame has been Round 2 of Suspect testing. And in THIS metagame, Salamence has not been broken. So yes, I can say that after just two rounds. Nice try, though.

And it's one thing to look at previous generations and learn from them or use them as guidance. But you did something entirely different.

You said "no counters=broken". I said that Salamence disproves that. And you replied by stating "Having no counters is the reason it was banned in Gen4." So I am telling you that your argument is invalid.

Of course you can't counter everything, but the inability to do so to a given Pokemon is an astoundingly large testament to their brokenness. If there is a Pokemon that exists that gives your team trouble, and you can't ever stop it dead in it's tracks, then you have a problem. It's like saying, "Well since trains are getting so fast, we should just forgo brakes, because it's harder to stop them the faster they get."

Cars have brakes. But everyone knows that sometimes the brakes go bad. Or that you might park your car on a hill. For situations like these, cars are made with Emergency Brakes (aka checks). If a pokemon has 0 counters but 54 viable checks, there's a strong possibility that it may not be broken.

vaporeon is a relatively safe switch

Max/Max Bold Vaporeon always gets 2HKOed by a +0 Outrage. It cannot switch in.

So is Burungeru, actually...

See above.

I just want it to get superpower and maybe some kind of priority and then I'll use it

Suppose that it doesn't get Superpower or priority. But you are making a team which is currently Latios/Reuniclus-weak. Would you not use it?

 

[masterful]

Max/Max Bold Vaporeon always gets 2HKOed by a +0 Outrage. It cannot switch in.

Suppose that it doesn't get Superpower or priority. But you are making a team which is currently Latios/Reuniclus-weak. Would you not use it?

1) That's right, because bo Vaporeon don't carry Protect and no Mence ever go for anything but Outrage
2)I'd use CB Tar, simple as that

 

[SlimMan]

1) That's right, because bo Vaporeon don't carry Protect and no Mence ever go for anything but Outrage
2)I'd use CB Tar, simple as that

1) Counters aren't counters if they can only come in on certain moves. Those are called checks.

For instance, Bronzong can come in on a Heatran's Earth Power, survive a Fire Blast, and use EQ on the Heatran. But Bronzong is not a Heatran counter.

2) It's ironic because of how much you were bashing on CB Tar in the Reuniclus thread.

But whatever, it gets the job done.

 

[TheValkyries]

Your argument has a flaw. Let's look at it. "Salamence's brokenness in this meta-game?"

THIS metagame has been Round 2 of Suspect testing. And in THIS metagame, Salamence has not been broken. So yes, I can say that after just two rounds. Nice try, though.

So far in this round yes, too bad I wasn't ever implying that being broken transcends generations. My argument of the fact that viably uncounterable things have always been deemed broken. Salamence was deemed broken for that reason in 4th gen. This gen, Porygon2 counters Mence handily, and even then, Mence's brokenness hasn't even been brought up because there are so many other toys to use. I can almost guarantee you if we were to have usage stats that Mence's usage would be extremely low. So we simply cannot know if he's still broken or not, and the only evidence you've provided for his non-brokenness is your word.

And it's one thing to look at previous generations and learn from them or use them as guidance. But you did something entirely different.

You said "no counters=broken". I said that Salamence disproves that. And you replied by stating "Having no counters is the reason it was banned in Gen4." So I am telling you that your argument is invalid.

But how...? You have no evidence to say that it is invalid. You're just saying that it is.

Cars have brakes. But everyone knows that sometimes the brakes go bad. Or that you might park your car on a hill. For situations like these, cars are made with Emergency Brakes (aka checks). If a pokemon has 0 counters but 54 viable checks, there's a strong possibility that it may not be broken.

So your saying you go around with broken brakes never fixing them and have to resort to the e-brake every time you would drive that car?

You must be an awful driver.

 

[masterful]

1) Counters aren't counters if they can only come in on certain moves. Those are called checks.

For instance, Bronzong can come in on a Heatran's Earth Power, survive a Fire Blast, and use EQ on the Heatran. But Bronzong is not a Heatran counter.

2) It's ironic because of how much you were bashing on CB Tar in the Reuniclus thread.

But whatever, it gets the job done.

CB Tar is better at taking out Psychic threats than Shuba.
Also, Vappy can also switch in on Outrage, protect, possibly getconfuse hax or recover enough to take another one. That;s a counter

 

[IcyMan28]

CB Tar is better at taking out Psychic threats than Shuba.
Also, Vappy can also switch in on Outrage, protect, possibly getconfuse hax or recover enough to take another one. That;s a counter

Vaporeon is annihilated by Draco Meteor followed by Outrage, as well as +1 Jolly LO Outrage with rocks, meaning that it cannot switch directly into Salamence.

CBTar is good, yes, but not all teams want to be forced to use a pokemon with so many weaknesses that brings with it automatic residual damage. Not to mention that SpecsLatios can 2HKO with SpecsSurf.

I would actually argue that Shubarugo is better at taking out Psychic threats than Tyranitar. Very few viable OU Psychics lack a way to hit Tyranitar, be it through the use of Surf, STAB Hydro Pump/Grass Knot, a dark-resistant secondary typing, or, more commonly, Focus Blast, which Tyranitar is crippled by.

Shubarugo, on the other hand, has many more resistances, retains great bulk, actually hits harder with CB Megahorn, and is only really checked by HP Fire-running Psychics and Ghosts. Not to mention that a dragon resist is invaluable.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Also, Vappy can also switch in on Outrage, protect, possibly getconfuse hax or recover enough to take another one. That;s a counter

Unless it doesn't get confuse hax. 50% chance is not a counter.

 

[SlimMan]

So far in this round yes, too bad I wasn't ever implying that being broken transcends generations. My argument of the fact that viably uncounterable things have always been deemed broken. Salamence was deemed broken for that reason in 4th gen. This gen, Porygon2 counters Mence handily, and even then, Mence's brokenness hasn't even been brought up because there are so many other toys to use. I can almost guarantee you if we were to have usage stats that Mence's usage would be extremely low. So we simply cannot know if he's still broken or not, and the only evidence you've provided for his non-brokenness is your word.

It doesn't matter that things without counters have always been broken. Until this Gen, an ability (read: we didn't have Inconsistent) had never been found broken.

Your argument is doesn't hold up. You're saying that because un-counterable things have all been broken so far, that un-counterable=broken. Just because it has always been so, does not mean it always will be so.
Trend=/=fact. Pattern=/=truth. Correlation=/=law. Tendencies=/=rules.

... The only evidence you have for your own claims is your own word. Why should your word be fine evidence and mine not? Oh right, because it's you.

And as a note, Mence was an example and somewhat irrelevant to this argument itself.

CB Tar is better at taking out Psychic threats than Shuba.
Also, Vappy can also switch in on Outrage, protect, possibly getconfuse hax or recover enough to take another one. That;s a counter

1) Yes, but if CB Tar is "not very good", as you said, then it's somewhat ironic you run it.

2) A high damage roll can still 2HKO with a Jolly nature. Or a low damage roll with an Adamant nature. Even with Protect.

3) Outrage might last 3 turns. Or it might not get confuse hax. Relying on confuse hax to win is not a counter.

4) Stealth Rock

 

[JSND]

Shubarugo. AKA the pokemon with sucky movepool that actualy work well that get popular in oen night just ebcause some people starting to discuss about him and using its merit in their team by abusing the state of the current metagame. Always compared with Scizor due to very simmilar Moveset in term of typing and simmilar abuse stats although shubarugo has extremely beastly base stats outside speed and uneeded SpA(ttar duplicate ? oh man)

However Ttar is open to focus blast and not too open but weak to surf. In term of maiming both, shuabrugo is CLEARLY better. Also shuba isnt useless. Outside that his 135 base attack and neat resistance and 120 STAB and iron head is just enough to make splash in Standard.

Seriously Ttar with choice item IMO must just go to hell. I mean he must starting to return to be that pokemon that "can do 37 different things well" not just for some sucky anti psychic.

 

[masterful]

Vaporeon is annihilated by Draco Meteor followed by Outrage, as well as +1 Jolly LO Outrage with rocks, meaning that it cannot switch directly into Salamence.

CBTar is good, yes, but not all teams want to be forced to use a pokemon with so many weaknesses that brings with it automatic residual damage. Not to mention that SpecsLatios can 2HKO with SpecsSurf.

I would actually argue that Shubarugo is better at taking out Psychic threats than Tyranitar. Very few viable OU Psychics lack a way to hit Tyranitar, be it through the use of Surf, STAB Hydro Pump/Grass Knot, a dark-resistant secondary typing, or, more commonly, Focus Blast, which Tyranitar is crippled by.

Shubarugo, on the other hand, has many more resistances, retains great bulk, actually hits harder with CB Megahorn, and is only really checked by HP Fire-running Psychics and Ghosts. Not to mention that a dragon resist is invaluable.

Yet in all honesty, CB Tar is incredibly more useful overall, as it possesses a movepool that isn't resisted by every damn poke in the game. Also, it's pursuit is way stronger

 

[JSND]

No denying. CB tar is probably best Ttar set ever. Although Ttar's "i can do 37 thing different things and all is done well" charem is too much to just slap CB tar. I mean he can use every choice item, be a tank, mixtar, etc. Its just a waste of such great poke in some cases. And sometime we need to cover Cbtars weakside such as dory(shuba is weak to dory too tho).

 

[astrohawke]

No denying. CB tar is probably best Ttar set ever. Although Ttar's "i can do 37 thing different things and all is done well" charem is too much to just slap CB tar. I mean he can use every choice item, be a tank, mixtar, etc. Its just a waste of such great poke in some cases. And sometime we need to cover Cbtars weakside such as dory(shuba is weak to dory too tho).

A lot of CB tars carry superpower, aqua tail or fire punch as their coverage move so dory isn't going to like switching into it. Even if it comes in on a resist it's losing its balloon. CB Megahorn from shuba is also a 2HKO so dory won't be wanting to switch into that either.

 

[JSND]

yeah but considering Shuba's bulk is same as zor, after SD, he OHKO from my experience.
On resisted move, Dory can set SD. If dory dont use baloon(occasioanaly) or lose it, he still have SD making a gamebreaking situation on some cases. Not to mention weakened dory can still be used as revenge killer/checks etc.

Also some info.
No item fire punch dont OHKO dory. Dory is quite dang bulky but it dont matter much though.

Which means yeah both of them give SD chance to dory

 

[sxof]

Just posting to remind you guys Cresselia and Porygon2 are perfect Salamence counters.

 

[alamaster]

No denying. CB tar is probably best Ttar set ever. Although Ttar's "i can do 37 thing different things and all is done well" charem is too much to just slap CB tar. I mean he can use every choice item, be a tank, mixtar, etc. Its just a waste of such great poke in some cases. And sometime we need to cover Cbtars weakside such as dory(shuba is weak to dory too tho).

How is CBTar, it's supposed best set a waste then? Max hp CBTar survives a jolly dory EQ at 100% and KOs back with Superpower btw.