np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

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Illegal, you have to use Energy Ball as Giga Drain is a Gen IV TM and thus incompatible with Chlorophyll.
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Not on PO it isn't which makes it sound more like a issue that needs looking into immediately since +2 STAB Giga Drains to help with LO recoil is pretty insane if its illegal but I have to agree Growth with 3 attacks LO Venusaur is absolutely ridiculous and quite unpredictable being able to OHKO a huge ammount of checks outside of the weather inducers and Heatran.

I honestly wouldn't bother with Sleep Powder to shut down counters because when you have something that bulky and strong your counters tend to be only a very select minority who you can build the rest of your team to take out, 3 attacks is what makes it. Effectively if the sun stays out which isn't exactly hard to do if you don't play it at the very start when you can clearly see they also pack a weather inducer all it takes is 1 turn to have a Venusaur with three of its stats completely doubled.

Although I think it really comes back to a similar issue as with what happened with the Rain debate that its these +2 speed abilities in combination with perma weather that is biting hardest.
 
Mario With Lasers said:
Illegal, you have to use Energy Ball as Giga Drain is a Gen IV TM and thus incompatible with Chlorophyll.


I'm using Venusaur, and I can say that what really holds it back is the 4 moveslot syndrome. I wish it could have Sleep Powder / Seed Bomb / Sludge Bomb / Growth / HP Fire / HP Ice / Earthquake, but I can only choose Growth + 3 and there will always be something out there ready to fuck my shit up, as I can't always rely on Sleep Powder to shut down my counters. And, of course, there's always the issue of having Sun up. It's not impossible, as Ninetales can be a surprinsingly bulky mon and you could have a backup weather inducer in stealth mode, but Tyranitar really, really can kill the mood if it comes in the right move (read: anything but Seed Bomb, unless it's physically bulky lol).

Oh, and of course, Heatran. Fuck you Heatran, nobody likes you anymore, why do you only appear to me when I'm using a Sun team goddamnit
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Energyball is noted. Also I do realize the difficulty in keeping weather but in general its no different from the difficulty of trying to keep the weather in place with other abusers, as we had with swift swim though that didn't stop them from being such a threat (though the difference being there were many of them I'm just looking at Venus here). Point still being that it is a threat with the combination of condition + ability + move which makes Venus such a monster it literally has a one turn set up for 3 stat boosts - and not some measly boost but effectively a doubling. Yes the solution is to bring another weather inducer at the right time, I'm assuming you mean when it uses Growth, to stop the weather sweeper but if your weather is out or said sweeper at least has its boost in place it will still be a pain (I mean Growth will still give Venus a +1 and will hurt Tyranitar or Hippow or anyone coming in sans Heatran). Also though you note the 4 slot syndrome doesn't diminish its quality since it can either run to be more on the special side or on the physical side with one of its moves, in the end its ability to run mixed still stands.

Edit: Also note that no other sun user does come close to Venus in being a threat I only really do see this with Venus, others may also have access to the same conditions and some moves to go around with but Venus has the stats and a good enough typing to save it from priority attacks (resisting common priority like Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Fighting types is quite a blessing). Heck, if you have so much trouble with 4 moveslot syndrome just look at Manphy it also had 4 moveslot syndrome but that didn't make it any less of a threat as it still had just the right moves ability and weather condition.
 
Venusaur doesn't resist Bullet Punch.

And you're extremely underrating Sawsbuck. That rapes Heatran for one, and it's incredibly a lot easier to spam Frustration, and not to mention it doesn't get outsped by the rare but highly annoying ScarfGengar/Latis (and Terakion) without having to +speed. (Although being checked by Conkel is annoying!!)
 
yeah venusaur, tangrowth, and sawsbuck is the best sun sweeper no doubt that use chlorophylll.

However having sucky summoner kinda ruin most sun sweeper.
 
Sun may have extremely powerful sweepers, but they aren't nearly as good without sun up, and against a rain or a sand team that will almost always be the case. The biggest problem is that Politoed and Tyranitar can switch in on Ninetales every single time it comes in on them: If they bring in Politoed, Nattorei can come and get a layer of spikes down on your switch to Venusaur, and if they bring in Tyranitar they get SR up to hit Ninetales with for 1/4 health every time it switches back in.

Sun sweeps teams with no weather, but loses to Rain and Sand teams almost every time.
 
That is absolutely true, if you are a moron and don't know how to battle. There are many ways around those obstacles.

For starters, let's debunk the myth that Tyranitar can come in as many times as it likes. What about Will-O-Wisp Ninetales? Not only does that negate Tyranitar's complete physical attacking prowess, but it now takes 12% on switch ins. Should you combine it with SR, well let's say Tyranitar can now switch in just as many times as Ninetales can with SR on the field as well, and this is assuming Tyranitar DOESN'T take those 22% Energy Balls after it's been burnt on following turns. The same can be said for Politoed as well.

And then we LO NP Ninetales sets. Now it becomes Pokemon on the basis that we both need to predict. Do you think Tyranitar or Politoed will like taking even an unboosted LO HPFighting or Energy Ball? Max HP Tyranitar takes 53% avg from a neutral max SpAtk LO HPFighting. As many times as it wants to come in on Ninetales right? And Max HP Politoed takes on avg 47% from nonboosted LO Energy Ball. Or if you DO choose to NP on the switch, let's say vs the Nattorei. With Sand or Rain up, what's going to take a +2 LO Move that could possibly hit SE. The standard Sand team, after Tar comes in, does anything really want to switch into a +2 LO FB/EB/HP?

Don't be ignorant
 
Most Ninetales that I see are scarfed. I have only seen a WoW variant once, and have never seen an LO NP one. This might just be the ladder though.

Tyranitar can switch in safely on a Fire Blast or Energy Ball. Once it is in, it can pursuit Ninetales if it isn't carrying WoW or set up SR to limit the number of times it can switch in. Specific scenarios don't prove anything either. "If they bring in Tyranitar, I WoW or 2HKO with HP Fighting. If they bring in Politoed, I hit it with a NP LO Energy Ball." Who would try switching in their weather changer right off the bat without knowing what set Ninetales is running? Nobody plays so carelessly with their weather starter if they're up against an opposing weather team.

Not just that, but Tyranitar and Politoed are so much easier to switch in than Ninetales. They both have good special bulk, and as such can come in easily on things like Heatran, or really any fire attack from a Drought team. Can Ninetales switch in on Landlos? No. Can it come in on Tornelos? No. Sun is far more difficult to keep up than Sand or Rain is. You say does anything on the standard Sand team want to switch in on a +2 Ninetales, but does anything on the standard Sun team want to switch in on a Specs Politoes or a +2 Thundurus? Your arguments (and most of mine) can all be applied both ways, and IMO the same arguments are stronger when applied to a Rain or Sand team than when applied to a Sun team.

You're a good player and all but that doesn't invalidate everyone that you could beat's opinion. If you have an alt at 1350, that doesn't make everyone with a lower rating than you a scrub. Try not to be so condescending :/
 
Thats funny, none of the Tales I see are Scarfed, they're either defensive WoW variants or Overheat/PowerShare variants with the occasionally Balloon Tales.
 
It would only be viewed as condescending if you were so incompetent to be unable to think outside the box. Your ignorance deems sun as only passable if there is no weather. The fact that there are scenarios to be applied to where that is not true makes that statement absolutely untrue already.

You also make horrible assumptions that makes anyone question about your knowledge of actual Pokemon battling on the ladder.

For example, NOTHING can actually switch into a +2 Borutorosu, be it a sand team, rain team, stall team, sun team, mono ground team.

Another example, you are assuming that every Sun team used by randomuser9029 is the same used as everyone else. Successful Sun teams do not just use the formulated Ninetales/Venusaur/Sawsbuck/Exeggutor/Heatran/Random over and over again. People who can think outside the box and have intelligence would apply different measures, such as adding a Dugtrio simply, or using a Balloon Ninetales to make it more of a Pokemon battle, such as making Doryuzuu think whether or not to RS or EQ on the switch and whether or not you can take advantage of that. Or such as using a Jirachi on a sun team. Rain and Sand teams alike hate dealing with Jirachi, who makes a pretty nifty sure-fire stop to the Hurricane spamming genie, as well as able to piss of anyone with constant good ole fashion DP BS+IH.

Once again, if you aren't capable of battling beyond paper theorymoning, then perhaps you are a scrub who is unable to get a high rating and therefore should keep your mouth shut from making stupid ass fuck claims as "sun only works if there's no weather"
 
I think I should note that I always ran Specs Ninetales... Max SpA Modest STAB Fire Blasts in the sun hurt a LOT. I seem to remember seriously denting Blisseys with it. If you try switching in a non-Weather 'mon, you're running the risk of losing something.

Of course, take this with a grain of salt. I only ever used Specs Ninetales on light weather teams, that is, ones with a single abuser (Venusaur and Morning Sun Ulgamoth, to be precise). I doubt that this would be anywhere near as effective a set on heavy weather teams.
 
I'm gonna have to stop trying to switch Ninetales into either Tonerosu or Voltolos. I am sick and tired of thinking, "Hey, in the sun, Thunder and Hurricane only have 50% accuracy. So it should probably miss against ninetales and then whatever I switch in afterwards can set up." only to have those genies go, "lol accuracy cut in half? lol FUCK THAT SHIT." and hit me anyway.

I'm also gonna have to agree with everything Aero said aside from his comment on dugtrio. When I'm not playing impatiently or raging against attacks missing three thousand times per battle, I actually do pretty well against sand and rain teams. Having recently tried bulky ninetales, I can say with safety that it can easily switch in on politoed whenever it dang well pleases. Bulky politoed does almost nothing with scald. Offensive variants still can't kill and the hydro pump damage is easily healed off with a wish from jirachi (who is great for handling the lati twins).

Sun's sweepers are stopped by different things. They aren't all shut down by the same handful of pokemon. Venusaur is walled by balloon Heatran (or rather, he choses not to go mixed due to the existence of the balloon). Sawsbuck is walled by Gliscor. Victreebel is also walled by Heatran. Blaziken is walled by nothing.
 
Sun teams are so far the most creative ones of the bunch compare to sand.
Plus there sweeps arent unstopable (sand dory +4).

As for venusaur you can wall the set with any poke with sub. LO is a oduble edge blade.

The only issues im having are Latios (just annoying due to everyone spams draco. Plus shadow tag.)

Blaziken is walled by the water-ghost type or any bulky water type for that matter. I gotten acouple of rage quites over switching into a ghost when the opp hi jump kicks.
 
Blaziken carries shadow claw JUST for the water/ghost pokemon you speak of, who is promptly ohko'd after a sword's dance boost. If he's in the sun, he's going to boost on you, since you aren't doing anything back. And no, bulky waters are not walling Hi Jump Kick. Except for Slowbro and Slowking. And the latter is manhandled by Shadow Claw/Sun boosted Flare Blitz (which is stronger than SE shadow claw, hilariously enough despite being resisted!)
 
Drizzle,drought and dory and maybe landlos needs to go. If those 3/4 things happen then we have a fair game. Right now it is a clusterfuck.
 
Just pitching in to debunk the myth that SS and Rain beat Sun "almost every time". Whilst a Sun team is severely threatened by both other weathers, when building the team a successful Sun team acknowledges these threats, as any good team should, and prepares multiple ways around them. If you take a look at the Ninetales analysis you'll see one of the two preferred sets allows you to beat Heatran safely, whilst the other is a ChestoRest set, effectively giving her more survivability than any other inducer but Hippowdon, and status moves. If there is a TTar on the other team, I'm firing a WoW off as soon as I get Tales in. If there is a Toed, I'm switching out to Sawsbuck to OHKO it or Toxicing it (yeah Tales can run Toxic well). After a few cyclical switchins where both mons are worn down, Tales can rest off the damage and your team will often gain the weather advantage since their inducer is crippled - if you play well. Similarly ranked SS and Rain lose to my Sun team more often than not with this careful strategy, since I've prepared for them so heavily, though they are some of the most challenging matchups I ever play and I do lose to them too. Opposing Blaziken claims more victories from me, to be quite honest.
 
Funny, I've been thinking of ways to make my sun team usable again, and here people come with lots of good ideas suddenly. Hopefully my battling drought (no pun intended) can be lifted in a couple of days and I can really rework my teams. I've noticed that a lot of my sun team is built to dismantle defensive cores and wall-break in general, and maybe that's why it's not that good anymore in this offensive metagame.
Opposing Blaziken claims more victories from me, to be quite honest.
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I have to agree with this. More than opposing weathers, I find that sun loses out on some really good conventional checks. Excadrill and Azumarill are big ones. So there's definitely a lot more creativity required for a sun team to do so much as revenge kill or beat Blaziken.
 
hey I have a question

SpecsToed is amazing, frankly, and has been working well.

why is Ninetales not of the same success? HP Fighting/Overheat/Fire Blast/Energy Ball seems good.
 
I dontk now Latios has been a bigger pain way more to then sun,sand,dick teams with carbon copy pokes.

It takes no skill to constantly swap into latios and spam d-meteor. Also sun team are FTW.

Blaziken im not having a issue with as of yet (priority aqua jet.).
 
Mario With Lasers said:
Illegal, you have to use Energy Ball as Giga Drain is a Gen IV TM and thus incompatible with Chlorophyll.
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While we're on the subject of move combinations that aren't but should be banned from PO, losing to Baton Pass Speed Boost Blaziken is REALLY annoying.
 
Breludicolo said:
hey I have a question

SpecsToed is amazing, frankly, and has been working well.

why is Ninetales not of the same success? HP Fighting/Overheat/Fire Blast/Energy Ball seems good.
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One problem is Tales' big physical frailty. It is horribly Pursuit weak, and SR weak too, so being forced out does not do it any favours. Another is the fact that its main counters love to come in on its STAB (other weather inducers and Tran) and when they bring in another weather this becomes hugely problematic to the whole team. It's coverage options are also weak and coming off a frankly awful SpAtk stat, so they're often inadequate to beat SpDef variants of some counters even when you predict them coming in correctly.
 
Breludicolo said:
hey I have a question

SpecsToed is amazing, frankly, and has been working well.

why is Ninetales not of the same success? HP Fighting/Overheat/Fire Blast/Energy Ball seems good.
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Specs HP Fighting won't OHKO TTar in the sand, its stab is resisted by the other weather inducers (bar Hippo), energy ball won't OHKO SpecsToed either so both can swtch in to cancle you weather if it needs to be.
TTar and Specs Toed however can always OHKO the other weather inducers on the switch and are not SR weak.

NP Ninetales on the other side is actually cool, it got 100 base speed and +2 LO sun boosted Fire attacks are fucking strong even with its mediocre SpA.
 
Benlisted said:
One problem is Tales' big physical frailty. It is horribly Pursuit weak, and SR weak too, so being forced out does not do it any favours. Another is the fact that its main counters love to come in on its STAB (other weather inducers and Tran) and when they bring in another weather this becomes hugely problematic to the whole team. It's coverage options are also weak and coming off a frankly awful SpAtk stat, so they're often inadequate to beat SpDef variants of some counters even when you predict them coming in correctly.
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You just hit on one of the only reasons why I consider sun to be the least useful of the weathers, simply because if you go against the other weathers, you really can't switch in on anything.
 
masterful said:
You just hit on one of the only reasons why I consider sun to be the least useful of the weathers, simply because if you go against the other weathers, you really can't switch in on anything.
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Tales can come in on Ice hits aimed at your Grass mons, the odd special Grass move as well as other weaker special attacks when you invest in bulk reasonably, even including weak Fire hits, as well as WoW and setup (as can any other mon). Her switchins are somewhat limited but are by no means unbelievably sparse, and with a ChestoRest set you can come in on less than optimal moves and heal off the damage or status later. When against other weather users you should always have a different switch that can take out the inducer anyway, so that's somewhat of a moot point.

This is without mentioning that when you take into account the difficulty she can have in coming in, you can adapt your team to help that by using slow Volt Change or U-Turners, letting her come in for free in certain threats. I suppose this certainly makes Sun one of the harder weathers to play with (Hail maybe aside) but I wouldn't say it damages its usefulness.
 
The difficulty of controlling the weather when playing sun is offset by the fact that you massacre teams who don't have weather changers.

It's a lot harder for my stall team to wall Sun abusers than it is to abuse Rain/Sand. You guys may say that Swift Swim was a lot more potent because it boosted the pokemon's STAB, but Sun getting rid of fire pokemons' weakness isn't something to scoff at either.

And sun with espeon support... makes me rage
 
Meru said:
And sun with espeon support... makes me rage
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Oh? How so? I'm imagining it may have something to do with Morning Sun.

Anyways, about Sunny weather, yeah, there has been a few instances where it was just plain annoying. Sawsbuck, if I don't have a counter ready, always manages to sweep remainder of one of my teams, and Venusaur always has Sleep Powder ready. Most of the time, though, Sun is fairly manageable with a weather changer. I find I have more conscience in preparing for Sandstorm teams rather than Sun, though again, it's manageable. Sun abusers do have to keep Ninetails alive, which isn't an easy feat to do.

On a side note, I am hating Deoxys-S / Gorebyss / Garchomp chains today. Brick Break Scizor / Dragonite / Salamence? I don't think so.
 
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