np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

Status
Not open for further replies.
sxof said:
Thank you for this.

...which is excactly what i suggested and you disagreed with.

It can. Be it with rain support, or additional sp.atk. EVs, +2 Gorebyss can KO both of these pokes with its Water STAB.

Oh yeah, and i peaked at 1351 on r2. Just for the record.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I got a bit messed up with the EV argument.

But where are you getting rain support for Gorebyss? And generally you want most of the EVs dumped into defenses or Speed.

And I'm not trying to start a rating argument. I'm just saying that I know how to play Pokemon, thank you very much.
 
alphatron said:
Nidoking is a great baton pass recipient, yes.

Since I don't actually play ubers, I have a question. Is Sacred Fire the only thing keeping Ho-oh in ubers (let's ignore regeneration for now since it's unreleased)? When thinking about it, he doesn't hit any harder than Garchomp does. Sacred Fire is as strong as Garchomp's earthquake. Brave Bird is as strong as Garchomp's outrage. Garchomp is faster than Ho-oh, has a better offensive typing, and has the means to actually boost his typing. Garchomp's dual STAB actually help him get past what would normally resist him, while Ho-oh's dual STAB is somewhat redundant. Fire and flying are both SE on bug and grass, while both are resisted by rock. While Ferrothorn/Nattorei would NEVER switch into Ho-oh, he loses around 48-56% from adamant choice band brave bird. Rotom-W 3HKO'd by the same brave bird, which is Ho-oh's strongest attack. A rotom-W with no offensive investment can land a solid 2HKO on max hp Ho-oh with hydro pump. Theorymonning here, but Choice Band Ho-oh would have the same switching issues as Choice Specs Latios, with pokes taking advantage of whatever move he's locked into, switching in and setting up. Ho-oh's base 90 speed would not be too kind to him either, nor would the SS residual damage and Stealth rock damage he would have to dodge around. Base 90 defense does not matter either when his typing is far from defensively admirable.

Then again, unlike Garchomp, Ho-oh has access to two forms of reliable recovery (like Latios) and a way to boost his speed. While his typing may not work for it, he's also much bulkier than Garchomp on the special side and can could possibly get away with actually using a calm mind set if he were in standard. I also don't play ubers so I may be missing something obvious here. But still, what is it that pushes him over the edge, while the likes of Garchomp and Latios are A-ok?
Click to expand...

Garchomp has weaknesses that are easily exploitable, thanks to the prominence of dragons in the metagame and the 4x weakness to Ice. While some would say the same of Ho-Oh, remember that there are not nearly as many users of STAB rock in OU as there are STAB dragon, and Ho-Oh can cripple them with a burn from Sacred Fire. This is not the use of a gimmick attack or less-effective strategy, it is the standard. As far as Latios, it is much easier to exploit -2 SpA than it is to take a choice-locked STAB Flying attack. The only pokemon that resist Ho-Oh's STABs + Earthquake are Aero, Archaeops, Solrock, and Lunatone. As you said, Ho-Oh is quite a bit more versatile than Garchomp - it can run CM, an extremely effective ToxicStall set, CB, Nitro Charge, Subroost, or 3 Attacks + Sub/Roost.

Then of course there is Ho-Oh's bulk - it is physically on par with Swampert (a bit more, actually, especially with Sacred Fire's tendency to burn), and has the special defense of Lugia. This allows it to outright wall even the likes of Palkia in the sun without even having to invest too much into its defenses, and it can sponge +4 Dark Pulse from Darkrai with an offensive EV spread.

Darkrai proved too much for OU - allowing a pokemon who both hits harder and has significantly more bulk + recovery seems like a bad idea to me. Useful resistances to ground, fighting, fire, and steel are more points in favor of Ho-Oh being Uber. The existence of the odd OU check does not mean that a pokemon is not Uber, otherwise we'd see the likes of Groudon and Giratina-O in standard because Cresselia and Tyranitar check them.
 
Also, Ho-Oh's Brave Bird doesn't lock it in like Garchomp's Outrage does. Ho-Oh makes better use of its bulk, because it can Recover/Roost off damage. While Garchomp's Dragon weakness is exploited by some of the best Pokemon in the game with some of the most reliable attacks out there, Ho-Oh's Rock weakness is primarily exploited by the miss-tacular Stone Edge. Finding a good Pokemon to come in and take a Tyranitar/Terrakion Stone Edge is WAY easier than finding something to take the Draco Meteor of the Latios that's come in to revenge you. Ho-Oh hardly even cares about its Water or Electric weaknesses with its ridiculous Special Defense, as most Water and Electric moves are specially-based. And there's Ho-Oh's STAB combo; sure, it's kind of redundant, but its strongest move (Brave Bird) is resisted by Rock (a very rare type in OU), Steel (weak to Fire) and Electric (also pretty rare in OU). Oh yeah, and Rock and Electric are both weak to Earthquake, which Ho-Oh gets.

Even without the insane power of Sacred Fire, Ho-Oh is definitively Uber; hell, it could just use its base 110 Special Attack to throw around Fire Blasts, if it needs to. Speed is usually very important, but when you have Ho-Oh's massive bulk and power, it really doesn't matter that much. But, of course, you can always use Nitro Charge if you need more speed. Yeah, Ho-Oh is ridiculous.

Edit: IcyMan, don't forget Ho-Oh's 4x Bug and Grass resistances.
 
Ho-oh in the sun X_X Also it gets instant recovery, crazy amazing Special bulk, Flying is a great attacking type in 5th gen as well, can stall out Stone Miss with Sub/Roost thanks to Pressure, and 680 stats. Just imagining him in OU makes me want to jump off a building.
 
Ho-oh with offensive spread can take insane hits such as shandera's Scarf HP rock AND
survive with 20 %. Yeah your seeing at kyogre's non rain surf wont OHKO him.

In term of attacks, it hit like chomp but have 50/50 brun and no lock recoil STAB with great typing since we all know flying has good or maybe great coverage and will be used more had it had good user(only 4 OU user last gen that is viable)

lets face it, ho-oh is one of the biggest threats in ubers. A big threat in uber is no OU in any means
 
I can say with complete confidence that Regeneration Ho-oh is THE most fearsome pokemon in Ubers. There's no way he's going to be OU just because Rotom-W resists all of his attacks.
 
I just thought of a Loophole in the Rain Dance SS ban. What happens when your Opponent uses Drizzle and you happen to have a Swift Swim pokes on your team? Is the battle invalid or what? I'm guessing not otherwise things would just get overlycomplicated but I was just thinking about it while watching a rain battle.
 
KurashiDragon said:
I just thought of a Loophole in the Rain Dance SS ban. What happens when your Opponent uses Drizzle and you happen to have a Swift Swim pokes on your team? Is the battle invalid or what? I'm guessing not otherwise things would just get overlycomplicated but I was just thinking about it while watching a rain battle.
Click to expand...

Lol. The rule is that you can not have Drizzle + Swift Swim on the same team. This is actually something that was brought up many times. It really does not have any point though, as it is not being exploited by a single person on a single team. More so, 1 team uses drizzle, and the other team counters it with their own swift swimmer. Even then, it isn't really "countered" as drizzle stall generally walls swift swimmers.
 
Just a reminder
Ho-Oh said:
Do not use this thread to discuss evasion or OHKO clauses, dropping Uber Pokemon into OU, etc. Use other discussions threads for those.
Click to expand...
 
Ha ha, sorry for bringing it up. You all make good points. I guess I just started thinking about it all of a sudden.

On another note, is it just me, or have all of the azumarill users vanished?
 
alphatron said:
Ha ha, sorry for bringing it up. You all make good points. I guess I just started thinking about it all of a sudden.

On another note, is it just me, or have all of the azumarill users vanished?
Click to expand...

I suspect the high usage of Latios probably deters people from using CBMarill, but I still see it from time to time. It's a godly check to Excadrill :)
 
Limewire said:
I suspect the high usage of Latios probably deters people from using CBMarill, but I still see it from time to time. It's a godly check to Excadrill :)
Click to expand...

You can Ice Punch/Superpower (for Rotom-W) on the switch, you know. Even if Azumarill is at low health and you risk losing your only check to Doryuuzu, they're often risking they're only pokemon that can legitimately sweep you. Plus, trapping most Latios is kind of trivial. I think it's more because people have decided that balance isn't worth the effort compared to stallish and hyper-offense teams, and balance is the only team that needs Azumarill -- even if balance needs Azumarill to have a full set of checks, no other team does.
 
I haven't been seeing many Azumarill either. Probably due to the lack of Sandstorm teams (which it is mainly used to check.) At around 1200 rating I'm seeing hardly any, there was maybe one in the last twenty matches. Am I alone in this experience? It's certainly nice to see.
 
I was thinking about the Dual Screen + Shell Smash Pass Gorebyss strategy, and I'm wondering why we are wasting the time when you have epic Double Dancers like Terakion and Landlos running around.
 
Terrakion - well there the rare goruugu and did we mention STAB technician bullet punch ?

Landlos - dunno.

Maybe since this gen focus on bulky offense too much ?
 
shrang said:
I was thinking about the Dual Screen + Shell Smash Pass Gorebyss strategy, and I'm wondering why we are wasting the time when you have epic Double Dancers like Terakion and Landlos running around.
Click to expand...
Most double dancers never get both dances at the same time, and Shell Smash and BP teams are usually less epicly priority weak
 
Abilities Sand Throw a and Chloropyll should be banned, IMO. For me a ability that give you +2 speed in weather is broken. Swift Swim was banned, and i hope that those two be banned.

You make a team, work a lot in EV's speed, see the base stat speed from a lot of OU pokemons, see how speed the scarfers more used have, and something with a ability like that will ignore you work...
 
Darkon said:
Abilities Sand Throw a and Chloropyll should be banned, IMO. For me a ability that give you +2 speed in weather is broken. Swift Swim was banned, and i hope that those two be banned.

You make a team, work a lot in EV's speed, see the base stat speed from a lot of OU pokemons, see how speed the scarfers more used have, and something with a ability like that will ignore you work...
Click to expand...

Swift Swim was at length discussed last test round - and we conluded that, obviously, such an ability can never be ban worthy alone, as without power to back up the speed you're just a Luvdisc or similar, a non threatening but incredibly fast mon. Chlorophyll sweepers and SR ones are powerful, but need a boost to get to decent power levels, unlike the SwSwers who could abuse the boosted water STAB rain provided. In my experience, neither SR or Chlorophyll has been a huge issue, maybe due to this, maybe not, but anyway.
 
Benlisted said:
Swift Swim was at length discussed last test round - and we conluded that, obviously, such an ability can never be ban worthy alone, as without power to back up the speed you're just a Luvdisc or similar, a non threatening but incredibly fast mon. Chlorophyll sweepers and SR ones are powerful, but need a boost to get to decent power levels, unlike the SwSwers who could abuse the boosted water STAB rain provided. In my experience, neither SR or Chlorophyll has been a huge issue, maybe due to this, maybe not, but anyway.
Click to expand...
I just want to point out that Aldaron's proposal did not set smogon's policy on weather-abusing abilities for all time. Yet at the same time, I must admit that banning either of these abilities isn't a good idea, just because the only remotely almost-broken thing about them is Doryuuzu, which is a single pokemon, and has been kept in OU for the last 2 suspect tests and will likely stay there.
 
masterful said:
I just want to point out that Aldaron's proposal did not set smogon's policy on weather-abusing abilities for all time. Yet at the same time, I must admit that banning either of these abilities isn't a good idea, just because the only remotely almost-broken thing about them is Doryuuzu, which is a single pokemon, and has been kept in OU for the last 2 suspect tests and will likely stay there.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that these abilities could never be banned, just that there would really be little good reason to do so, probably given their lesser immediate power compared to SwSwers. Even if say Chlorophyll were broken, it is highly likely that only say Venusaur would be so given the weaknesses of the other chlorophyllers, and that puts it in a situation like Excadrill where there is really only one (or a few) broken user(s) of the ability who we may just as easily ban as pokemon rather than implementing complex bans.
 
Darkon said:
Abilities Sand Throw a and Chloropyll should be banned, IMO. For me a ability that give you +2 speed in weather is broken. Swift Swim was banned, and i hope that those two be banned.

You make a team, work a lot in EV's speed, see the base stat speed from a lot of OU pokemons, see how speed the scarfers more used have, and something with a ability like that will ignore you work...
Click to expand...

Lol Darkon, you talk as if the Weather Speed abilities gave you +7 priority... And you mention Scarf pokémon... weird, the same argument you just made could have been made for them in Gen IV. "My Jolteon has 252 Speed EVs, it should always go first against Jirachi" or even in Gen III, "Starmie has 115 Base Speed, how the hell am I getting outsped by Gengar, fuck this game I'll play GSC instead".

Your problem isn't double Speed being broken in its essence, it's you not liking it.
 
Speaking of Chlorophyll there is only one user I have in mind that REALLY is a monster thanks to that ability along with Drought. Namely, Venusaur I don't see much that can actually stop that beast D: It can generally run mix thanks to the boost Growth received making it difficult to wall outside of those with x4 resist to its stabs of Grass and Poison (not the best coverage but adequate enough when it gets its boost from growth). It can run sleep powder to keep you on your toes, as it can shut down its counters well using that. And speaking of counters or checks I don't see much, Heatran is the foremost one (shutting it down completely, sans sleep powder of course) and Ferrothrorn is another if they opt to forgo HP fire for sleep powder (then again facing a sun team generally would put Ferro in danger).
 
Physical Venu dies to Ballon Tran, Special Venu dies to any dragon assuming you're using Sleep Powder and Growth (which, imo, all Venu's should use. If special Venu runs Sludge Bomb over HP Fire you lose to any poison/steel.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Physical Venu dies to Ballon Tran, Special Venu dies to any dragon assuming you're using Sleep Powder and Growth (which, imo, all Venu's should use. If special Venu runs Sludge Bomb over HP Fire you lose to any poison/steel.
Click to expand...

One of the more common sets is LO Venus with Growth/HP Fire/Giga Drain(or Enegry Ball)/Sludge bomb. And as I already acknowledged that Heatran does shut it down well but outside of that not much. Sides if you do calcs for +2 Sludge Bomb you'd see that Venus actually CAN handle the dragons, as I said part of the difficulty lies in Venus' ability to go mixed thanks to growth so I'm not sure why you had to categorize Venus as either special or physical when it runs mixed. Or do you mean a degree more special or physical if so then the variation of the set I posted above would be EQ/Sludge/HP Fire/Growth which again is walled by Heatran but handles everything else just fine. Though I find its really the combination of Growth (with the buff it received this gen) + Chlorophyll + Sun that makes Venus for me as arguably bad as Manphy was in the rain. No other cholorophyll or sun user comes close to Venusaur.
 
Machi said:
One of the more common sets is LO Venus with Growth/HP Fire/Giga Drain/Sludge bomb.
Click to expand...

Illegal, you have to use Energy Ball as Giga Drain is a Gen IV TM and thus incompatible with Chlorophyll.


I'm using Venusaur, and I can say that what really holds it back is the 4 moveslot syndrome. I wish it could have Sleep Powder / Seed Bomb / Sludge Bomb / Growth / HP Fire / HP Ice / Earthquake, but I can only choose Growth + 3 and there will always be something out there ready to fuck my shit up, as I can't always rely on Sleep Powder to shut down my counters. And, of course, there's always the issue of having Sun up. It's not impossible, as Ninetales can be a surprinsingly bulky mon and you could have a backup weather inducer in stealth mode, but Tyranitar really, really can kill the mood if it comes in the right move (read: anything but Seed Bomb, unless it's physically bulky lol).


Oh, and of course, Heatran. Fuck you Heatran, nobody likes you anymore, why do you only appear to me when I'm using a Sun team goddamnit
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top