Blaziken in the sun is a dick in general, you cant even use resists against it because its fire moves actually beat Jellicent (now its water moves also cant touch you) and most things that resist it, which frees up a slot for Protect and then even scarfers cant touch it. Again its pretty much Slowbro or bust. -_- I think its actually Speed Boost or Drought that make it broken, Wob is just the icing on the cake.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Even Slowbro wont like being smashed repeatedly and besids I think HJK does more damage resisted than a SE shadow claw. Im of opinion as Ive mentioned earlier is that its simply Drought which is the problem. Its very underrated as being inferior to rain yet Ive found it far more versatile than anyone would believe. Sure theres a smaller pool of abusers but neither are they all exposed to virtually the same weakness and have more hard counter along with the combo ban has made them far more reasonable.
Ninetales is far harder to take out of comission than youd believe and between the likes of Heatran, Tangrowth, Venusaur, Blaziken, Volcarona you already have enough offensive variety to blow through everything with a well picked combo of them.
Ninetales is far harder to take out of comission than youd believe and between the likes of Heatran, Tangrowth, Venusaur, Blaziken, Volcarona you already have enough offensive variety to blow through everything with a well picked combo of them.
Wobb+Blaze is and sun in general are huge pains. Volcarona is a huge threat, but because of SR I usually don't lose a pokemon to it. Venusaur is an absolute monster! We all know all 4 moves its carrying as soon as it comes out and unless you carry Heatran or Flamethrower Blissey its gonna kill you. Blaziken is actually easier to handle, for me at least because I run Swords dance lucario on my team. There may not be a single switch in to it that takes less than 50% from one of its moves but at least powerful priority beats the thing.
There was a game where I faced a sun team with all 4 of those. If I had gotten a bit less hax that game was pretty much down the gutter. Sun is the new rain, everyone knows how to abuse it and you can see the cheapness of it as someone overpowers you with it. What do we do? I dont want to be forced to use Abomasnow or isolated counters to all of these threats, which Blaze/Volcaronasaur can break through as an offensive unit easily.
There was a game where I faced a sun team with all 4 of those. If I had gotten a bit less hax that game was pretty much down the gutter. Sun is the new rain, everyone knows how to abuse it and you can see the cheapness of it as someone overpowers you with it. What do we do? I dont want to be forced to use Abomasnow or isolated counters to all of these threats, which Blaze/Volcaronasaur can break through as an offensive unit easily.
I've said since the beginning of this round that Blaziken just is ridiculous. Without Sun, he's still absurd although he needs at least 2 boosts to outspeed everything. In sunlight, Blaziken is unstoppable. Slowbro is the only reliable counter and it's extremely hard to check outside of Azumarrill (it doesn't die to common priority, although it will take a large chunk out of it). Blaziken often ends up killing itself through recoil than anything else. After it takes out at least 2 Pokemon.
I am actually really surprised Wobs is still in. He is the perfect set up ally. And its not just Blaziken, it can be any pokemon who wants to sit there and boost up while people look silly. Garchomp with a substitute and Swords Dance, Landlos with rock polish, Haxorus (lol?) with a dragon dance or 2...
But yeah, once Wobbs gets a free turn in for Blaziken, its really scary. Definitely a problem there.
But yeah, once Wobbs gets a free turn in for Blaziken, its really scary. Definitely a problem there.
I used Wobbs at the beginning of round 3 and was told that he was a liability against some new threats. Then I began using him with wish support, got rid of safegaurd for tickle, and actually wound up using Scizor on a sun team. It allowed me to eliminate Specs pokemon AND have wobb allow for easy setup in the same match. I still personally believed that the extra turn he gave setup sweepers was a bit of an issue but I didn't want to mention it. Expecially since Wobb has yet to bother me (I run a mental herb on half the things he wants to switch into and either u-turn or volt change).
This guy makes perish song force you out the minute your opponent uses it on something else. After they use perish song, your opponent can immeadiately switch into Wobbs to finish you off had you chosen not to switch right away. Switched something into that politoed only for it to use perish song? Better hope that what you switched in had STAB Ghost/Dark coverage. Otherwise, you'll be losing a pokemon if you don't get out of there.
By the way, +2 Flare Blitz in the sun deals a minimum of 176% to max/max jellicient. Even shadow claw deals a minimum of 90% after an SD. This pokemon was never a counter to blaziken. Only Slowbro. If Blaziken switches out, then Slowbro can switch out too to regenerate off the damage at least. He works only because he can keep himself healthy enough to reliably handle blaziken unless you're using him against other things. On all of my non gimmick sun teams, I've been using a bulky Slowbro to handle him and outside of taking an HP electric from mixed ones on the switch (if the mixed ones worry you, then switch to Slowking) it works every time.
I do not think he should be banned though. He is merely a powerful sweeper. You check him the same way you check dragons, terakion, landlos, etc.
Admittedly though, outside of choiced scarf pokemon switching in on Sword's Dance, protect on pokemon like Garchomp, and Hi Jump Kick missing, I have never lost a match after wisely setting up an SD with Blaziken. He carried me into early 110s on the PO ladder. The hard part is actually using Sword's Dance. And that's not all that hard if you use Blaziken on a sun team. You turn CM Suicune into setup fodder. >_>
Edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Tentacruel. Max/max bold tentacruel can be ohko'd by hi jump kick factoring in stealth rock and can't actually do anything back if Blaze is in sunlight.
This guy makes perish song force you out the minute your opponent uses it on something else. After they use perish song, your opponent can immeadiately switch into Wobbs to finish you off had you chosen not to switch right away. Switched something into that politoed only for it to use perish song? Better hope that what you switched in had STAB Ghost/Dark coverage. Otherwise, you'll be losing a pokemon if you don't get out of there.
By the way, +2 Flare Blitz in the sun deals a minimum of 176% to max/max jellicient. Even shadow claw deals a minimum of 90% after an SD. This pokemon was never a counter to blaziken. Only Slowbro. If Blaziken switches out, then Slowbro can switch out too to regenerate off the damage at least. He works only because he can keep himself healthy enough to reliably handle blaziken unless you're using him against other things. On all of my non gimmick sun teams, I've been using a bulky Slowbro to handle him and outside of taking an HP electric from mixed ones on the switch (if the mixed ones worry you, then switch to Slowking) it works every time.
I do not think he should be banned though. He is merely a powerful sweeper. You check him the same way you check dragons, terakion, landlos, etc.
Admittedly though, outside of choiced scarf pokemon switching in on Sword's Dance, protect on pokemon like Garchomp, and Hi Jump Kick missing, I have never lost a match after wisely setting up an SD with Blaziken. He carried me into early 110s on the PO ladder. The hard part is actually using Sword's Dance. And that's not all that hard if you use Blaziken on a sun team. You turn CM Suicune into setup fodder. >_>
Edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Tentacruel. Max/max bold tentacruel can be ohko'd by hi jump kick factoring in stealth rock and can't actually do anything back if Blaze is in sunlight.
also which moves do you prefer for venusaur?
the standart is growth,giga drain/energy ball(don't know which is legal or not),hp fire,sludge bomb.
i use hp fire,sludge bomb and eq 'cause i want to be able to kill both the dragons and balloonless heatran!
is there anything important that i can't kill 'cause of the lack of a grass move except bulky waters who anyway wouldn't stay in on venusaur???
the standart is growth,giga drain/energy ball(don't know which is legal or not),hp fire,sludge bomb.
i use hp fire,sludge bomb and eq 'cause i want to be able to kill both the dragons and balloonless heatran!
is there anything important that i can't kill 'cause of the lack of a grass move except bulky waters who anyway wouldn't stay in on venusaur???
Garchomp, who resists the tnrie moveset. Balloon Heatran, who still resists the entire moveset.
That's all that comes to mind. But I don't know though. The only chlorosweeper to me who can get away with not actually carrying grass type moves is Shiftry.
That's all that comes to mind. But I don't know though. The only chlorosweeper to me who can get away with not actually carrying grass type moves is Shiftry.
garchomp doesn't resists ground but you are right 'cause he doesn't gets ohkoed by a +2 eq.i alrdy mentioned balloon heatran as a counter!
but generally the above set is the most useful for me since it doesn't get walled neither by dragons(except multiscale dragonite which every venusaur lacking sleep powder gets walled by,and garchomp)nor by heatran which are the common venusaur checks....
but generally the above set is the most useful for me since it doesn't get walled neither by dragons(except multiscale dragonite which every venusaur lacking sleep powder gets walled by,and garchomp)nor by heatran which are the common venusaur checks....
97.5<140. Actually, even a double-boosted Flare Blitz is slightly weaker against it.
Likewise, that can't be right. NVE Flare Blitz is effectively 135 BP to Shadow Claw's 140. Did you forget the +2 on the latter? Because those numbers make more sense if you did.
No. He forgot the resistance of the former. A +2 Flareblitz in the sun deals a minimum of 88% damage to max/max+ jellicent.
My bad on HJK. Though after getting round to rechecking his moves Flare Blitz within sun much to my chargrin its actually only like 2% weaker than Shadow Claw and as some have mentioned he can simply go mixed.
I can't believe I even forgot about Wobb the little prick is a godsend towards sun teams. Where he doesn't function as universally as he used to with huge threat problems hes still fantastic for getting 1 turn setups and isolating threats. Its really the biggest problem against sun teams is they only need 1 turn to setup.
Is that really that guaranteed? Far as I recall within the sun CB Azu only does somewhere regions of abit more than half of Blaziken's HP. IMO a slightly more reliable counter would be to send in a physical Unaware Quagsire in to sponge its blows and EQ it to hell though this has the whole problem that it can carry HP Grass often for Slowbro. Plus HJK and Sun Flare Blitz are still highly threatening to Quags unboosted.
Well yeah. In the sun Blaziken tears through pretty much everything but Quagsire. But you can't assume sun will always be up and you will always have +2, so Azu is just a check either way
Right; as I mentioned in the second part of my post, it's 135 vs 140 effective BP, though Shadow Claw still has the advantage of no recoil.
Whoops, you're right. I did forget to factor in weaknesses when I calculated flare blitz.
Just re-read this. Using a team with ninetales and four or five sweepers is generally a bad idea and the team sucks once the weather goes down (unless using blaziken against rain).
Just re-read this. Using a team with ninetales and four or five sweepers is generally a bad idea and the team sucks once the weather goes down (unless using blaziken against rain).
Really, I find Blaziken the only thing that makes sun ridiculous. Venusaur and Volcarona are manageable.
I run Slowbro with Psychic so I wont comment too much on Blaziken.
I do agree that he can be pretty hard to stop at +2, the problem is GETTING to +2.
If you have a LO, you have to be really careful to not get damaged much if at all and Blaziken doesn't exactly take hits that well.
Anyway, what do you all think of Thundurus?
He's fast, he hits like a truck, and he can easily cripple something before dying.
Nasty Plot users are almost unstoppable too. +2 Focus Blast leaves Ferrothorn is horrible shape and the only things I can think of that can stop that is another Thundurus with priority T-wave, Whimsicott with Stun Spore, or a bulky Water/Ground type.(Although Grass knot would rape them)
I do agree that he can be pretty hard to stop at +2, the problem is GETTING to +2.
If you have a LO, you have to be really careful to not get damaged much if at all and Blaziken doesn't exactly take hits that well.
Anyway, what do you all think of Thundurus?
He's fast, he hits like a truck, and he can easily cripple something before dying.
Nasty Plot users are almost unstoppable too. +2 Focus Blast leaves Ferrothorn is horrible shape and the only things I can think of that can stop that is another Thundurus with priority T-wave, Whimsicott with Stun Spore, or a bulky Water/Ground type.(Although Grass knot would rape them)
How's an enemy thunderous getting in safely? Most things faster can revenge or come in on the NP. The problem is his priority twave... but he has to sacrifice coverage to carry it (either hp ice/gk or focus blast). Very powerful, but has 5-moveslot syndrome (although with just 4 it can tear apart stall pretty well...).
I took a page from Dexter's book and started running a specially defensive camerupt on teams that get decimated by him. Otherwise, you can't really switch anything in. Specially defensive CM Jirachi loses to nasty plot. Evo stone porygon2 is decimated by a +2 focus blast. He's not as revenged as easily as Landlos.
The worst part about all of him though is priority thunder wave that he tends to throw out before he dies. If he feels that he's done enough, he'll cripple your revenger or sweeper. AND he has a 1/4th chance to avoid taking any damage that turn due to full paralysis, allowing him to continue his sweep!
The worst part about all of him though is priority thunder wave that he tends to throw out before he dies. If he feels that he's done enough, he'll cripple your revenger or sweeper. AND he has a 1/4th chance to avoid taking any damage that turn due to full paralysis, allowing him to continue his sweep!
Well, I never said another Thundurus is a counter, I just said he could stop him with a priority T-wave.
I'm theorymoning here but if P-2 comes on Thundrus it should trace mischieavous heart and be able to paralyze Thund with its own thunder wave making it basically useless. Never used P-2 in this meta but on the paper it seems a decent Thundrus switch in.
In theory and practice its a great strat and pretty much perfect, Thundurus is going to do neglectable damage without a boost against Evolite P-2 unless they turn borderline psychic and Focus Blast you on the switch. Though in practice, they will see it copy mischievous heart and simply run like a coward to their P-2 counter. But at the very least it does the job of scaring it off which is all that can be asked for and as long SR is up he'll get punished for it. Also as some have mentioned, Scarfchomp is pretty much a cockblock for Thundurus and you really see them alot still.
Special defensive Camerupt in is surprisingly good this gen, he actually cockblocks a surprising ammount of opponents this gen. I can also attest to him being a annoying opponent for any Thundurus. Furthermore he isn't a situational counter and can offer support and mess up some other top threats such as Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Volcarona, T-Tar, Chandelure, Magnezone and if you have balloon Excadrill, Heatran, Hippowdon too.
Uh... I ran into a trick room team that had a TR Endeavor Solosis. It was so retarded, I think the demoralization from it caused me to lose like 8/10 games today -.-
I'm getting less and less impressed by Blaziken. I'm starting to get a positive win record against it, but it hasn't been quite able to save my sun team at all. It turns out that it's actually not all that hard to make him not SD unless you're non-twave Ferrothorn or something. Also, all these freaking Jirachi are making my Tornadus sad :'(
I'm getting less and less impressed by Blaziken. I'm starting to get a positive win record against it, but it hasn't been quite able to save my sun team at all. It turns out that it's actually not all that hard to make him not SD unless you're non-twave Ferrothorn or something. Also, all these freaking Jirachi are making my Tornadus sad :'(
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