np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Arc Tech]

So you want to ban sub entirely on chomp, making it ridiculously hard to use a salac chomp, without the evasion chance?

I would rather have a straight out ban, but in all honesty Thorhammer's proposal is a good compromise for those who don't want chomp banned if we want to get rid of sand veil abuse.

 

[Meru]

Not sure what all of these complicated principles and bans are. Just have Sand Veil nullified by the Evasion Clause. Like how you can use Double Team right now, but a message from the Evasion clause comes up saying it's nullified. What's wrong with this method?

 

[Arc Tech]

It changes game mechanics (which is also why I have a problem with sleep clause as it is currently implemented).

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Double Team failing has negligible effect (now you can... spam it if all your other moves have 0 PP instead of not even having it in your moveset?) and something you should talk about with coyotte if you really care, I guess; Sand Veil failing is something impossible to achieve in-game, unless you try to re-do the battle using RNG down to the same initial seed and seed advancements every time the ability kicks in...

 

[Requiem[9]]

So you want to ban sub entirely on chomp, making it ridiculously hard to use a salac chomp, without the evasion chance?

Haha, what? The idea is to get rid of the Sub/SD/EQ/Dragon Claw @ Leftovers or Brightpowder variants that everyone's been spamming lately while minimizing the impact on Garchomp and teams in general. Banning Tyranitar and Garchomp from being on the same team is far, far more limiting as far as metagame diversity than banning a hax-oriented sets in general. SubSalac Chomp will be an unfortunate casualty, I suppose, but I have never seen one and it even operates on the same principle, as your post indicates: you're subbing for a miss as much a Salac Boost and I can't imagine in what world that sort of tactic is healthy for skill-based play. This idea is a much better compromise than Thorhammer's since it only punishes hax-based play.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

hi im zapdos and i sub in front of your stone edge



and yet im not broken



nor are my bros gliscor and cacturne

 

[Thorhammer]

Chomp without Sub can abuse Evasion.

Chomp with Sub has the potential to not have any Evasion at all.

Chomp + Sub is not the issue here.

 

[alphatron]

Hi, I'm Octillery and I'm gonna sub down until I get an evasion boost and your attack misses.

Zapdos subbing down on stone edge isn't the same thing as chomp subbing down in the face of a 100% accurate move in hopes for a miss.

The dark side of me really wants to agree with Requiem here, because the entire premise of Sub Garchomp with brightpowder or leftovers is to spam substitute until he gets a miss on whatever attack you used on him so he can get a free SD up. It's even more annoying than flinch hax jirachi and togekiss, because when it actually does work, there are less pokemon around who can stop it.

 

[StarmanXL]

So any thoughts on Deoxys-D? It's pretty much non-existent at the moment, and the few I have seen didn't really do shit. Is there something about this pokemon that makes it so good that I'm missing? 'Cause out of all the unbanned Gen 4 ubers it's the one I've seen the least talk about.

 

[masterful]

Chomp without Sub can abuse Evasion.

Chomp with Sub has the potential to not have any Evasion at all.

Chomp + Sub is not the issue here.

There we go. There's the problem. Yes, Garchomp can abuse sand Veil. Flygon can abuse levitate, Jirachi can abuse Serene Grace, Sableye can abuse Confuse Ray, BUT IT'S NOT BROKEN! we do not ban things that aren't broken. Garchomp has a remarkably low chance of getting back-to-back hax misses, and is so easily revenged nowadays by the many speedy threats of the meta that one free turn does not a sweep make. Sand Veil rarely, if ever, decides a match, and is thus not broken. On another note, please just nom this when it comes time. I don't see what you are getting out of arguing this point against so many.

 

[XienZo]

There we go. There's the problem. Yes, Garchomp can abuse sand Veil. Flygon can abuse levitate, Jirachi can abuse Serene Grace, Sableye can abuse Confuse Ray, BUT IT'S NOT BROKEN! we do not ban things that aren't broken. Garchomp has a remarkably low chance of getting back-to-back hax misses, and is so easily revenged nowadays by the many speedy threats of the meta that one free turn does not a sweep make. Sand Veil rarely, if ever, decides a match, and is thus not broken. On another note, please just nom this when it comes time. I don't see what you are getting out of arguing this point against so many.

It's got like a 60% chance to evade at least once out of four turns. Consecutive misses just troll harder, but the point is to get just a single miss.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Chomp without Sub can abuse Evasion.

Chomp with Sub has the potential to not have any Evasion at all.

Chomp + Sub is not the issue here.

Chomp + Sub is not the issue, but it's certainly an issue. Garchomp is rarely banking on a miss without Substitute, so it's not really "abuse". Misses will occasionally be gamebreaking still, but there's always going to be hax in pokemon. Its ability will get in the occasional advantage in the same way as Jirachi's and be useless the rest of the time. The ban is only on Sand Veil + Substitute, so it's not even invalidating Substitute strategies with Garchomp, just mandating that Substitute can't be used to create misses. While it's not the perfect ban, it's much more logical than banning something like Sand Veil + Sandstorm, which randomly weakens teams using Tyranitar for reasons beyond Sandstorm and removes tons of viable offensive cores from play. (If I was using Garchomp as an SD sweeper in this metagame, I would always pair it with Tyranitar to trap Latios, its primary check.)

 

[Benlisted]

Statistically using lefties to get 5 subs is more likely to net you a miss than 4 subs with brightpowder, if I remember correctly. In any case, if subchomp abusing sv to get a sd or a free hit is the thing we find imbalanced, we should ban chomp himself, not any ridiculously complex combo of the above - it means chomp can run a broken moveset, not that chomp isn't broken as long as these 4 factors aren't combined.

Its the same luck-based strat as running flinchraxi with t-wave, only the pokemon behind the strat is strong enough to break it. Cacturnes use of an identical set and not being nearly broken while doing so is evidence enough that chomps inherent strength is a big factor, as opposed to some inherent brokenness of anything abusing luck, as this can be a perfectly valid tactic.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Statistically using lefties to get 5 subs is more likely to net you a miss than 4 subs with brightpowder, if I remember correctly. In any case, if subchomp abusing sv to get a sd or a free hit is the thing we find imbalanced, we should ban chomp himself, not any ridiculously complex combo of the above - it means chomp can run a broken moveset not that chomp isn't broken as long as these 4 factors aren't combined. Its the same as running flinchraxi with t-wave, only the pokemon behind the strat is strong enough to break it. Cacturnes use of an identical set is evidence enough of this.

The ban is in principle. I've lost to Sub-SD Cacturne in DPPt too, when the misses lined up perfectly. It's to prevent people from spamming Sand Veil to try to hax their way to a win against a better player or out of an otherwise insurmountable hole more than because any pokemon with it is actually broken. It's like Inconsistent, like someone was mentioning: 90% of games you don't care and it's a free kill, but in the last 10%, you just lose. The idea's to maximize skill-based play.

Brightpowder, at least. The point of Brightpowder is to get Draco Meteor to miss more than to get a free Substitute, which is even more stupid.

 

[masterful]

It's got like a 60% chance to evade at least once out of four turns. Consecutive misses just troll harder, but the point is to get just a single miss.

One single miss does not lead to a sweep unless your team is really poorly designed or just a horrible match-up for Chomp, so I don't see your point. If something isn't broken, which one turn of set-up with Chomp certainly isn't, we should not ban it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The only bans I would support here are on Brightpowder/Lax Incense. I scratch my head to think why they aren`t already included in Evasion Clause. Everything else is rediculous bandwagoning about something that is annoying for you to face. As I and others have said, Garchomp can`t sweep at +2 anymore. Too many things outspeed and OHKO it or can take a +2 attack and remove/cripple it. Sand is no longer omnipresent so half the time its ability can`t activate anyway.

tl:dr , If your going to ban something ban Brightpower/nLax Incense under the Evasion Clause.

 

[XienZo]

One single miss does not lead to a sweep unless your team is really poorly designed or just a horrible match-up for Chomp, so I don't see your point. If something isn't broken, which one turn of set-up with Chomp certainly isn't, we should not ban it.

If Chomp comes out and singlehandedly sweeps your team 6-0 after a single free turn, yes, of course your team is horrible.

On the other hand, if you're using Chomp and you get a free turn, and you can't punch a big enough of a hole in the opponent's team that your team can capitalize on, your own team sucks as well.

 

[masterful]

The ban is in principle. I've lost to Sub-SD Cacturne in DPPt too, when the misses lined up perfectly. It's to prevent people from spamming Sand Veil to try to hax their way to a win against a better player or out of an otherwise insurmountable hole more than because any pokemon with it is actually broken. It's like Inconsistent, like someone was mentioning: 90% of games you don't care and it's a free kill, but in the last 10%, you just lose. The idea's to maximize skill-based play.

Brightpowder, at least. The point of Brightpowder is to get Draco Meteor to miss more than to get a free Substitute, which is even more stupid.

WE DO NOT BAN ON PRINCIPLE. If we did, Shadow Tag would be gone right now. OHKO moves and evasion boosting moves are broken, they have been used before in the metagame and it is extremely imbalanced. Brightpowder and Sub Garchomp are NOT broken. We do not ban on principle. Either offer evidence for why Sand Veil Chomp is broken or drop the case.

 

[XienZo]

WE DO NOT BAN ON PRINCIPLE. If we did, Shadow Tag would be gone right now. OHKO moves and evasion boosting moves are broken, they have been used before in the metagame and it is extremely imbalanced. Brightpowder and Sub Garchomp are NOT broken. We do not ban on principle. Either offer evidence for why Sand Veil Chomp is broken or drop the case.

Swift Swim Luvdisc in Drizzle is banned on evidence?

 

[masterful]

Swift Swim Luvdisc in Drizzle is banned on evidence?

Lol. Swift Swim on Luvdisc is banned because Drizzle and Swift Swim NEEDED to be banned. It was the best solution to aa highly controversial issue and it outlawed some pretty crappy stuff that wouldn't be used anyway in favor of preserving both the styles of rain offense and rain stall, but to a balanced extent. It is hardly relevant in this case, as Sand Veil Garchomp is not broken, I have seen no evidence towards the contrary, and it thus has no reason to be banned.

 

[XienZo]

Lol. Swift Swim on Luvdisc is banned because Drizzle and Swift Swim NEEDED to be banned. It was the best solution to aa highly controversial issue and it outlawed some pretty crappy stuff that wouldn't be used anyway in favor of preserving both the styles of rain offense and rain stall, but to a balanced extent.

Yes, we all know the reason why it was proposed, controversy and compromise and blah blah. That's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking if Swift Swim Luvdisc w/Drizzle is an evidence-backed ban or not. It's a yes/no question.

 

[Buzzcut]

Yes, we all know the reason why it was proposed, controversy and compromise and blah blah. That's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking if Swift Swim Luvdisc w/Drizzle is an evidence-backed ban or not. It's a yes/no question.

You seem to understand that it was controversial, but can't comprehend that it was controversial because each Poke with Swift Swim wasn't broken with Drizzle. If Drizzle was banned, people would complain about the loss of Rain Stall/the potency of other styles because of a lack of rain. If Swift Swim was banned, then the "argument" you're using now would be stated again. This was the compromise.

I fail to see how even disagreeing with the decision to ban SS + Drizzle is relevant to Sand Veil. Flinch Jirachi/Togekiss is worse in terms of abusing hax, and I believe someone said that "it's not hax because it's what they're meant to do". Essentially, an argument can be made that Garchomp is meant to have an attack miss once every 5 attacks under sandstorm. That's better than a 40% chance to attack (less with Paralysis).

 

[Zephyr]

^agreed, Dont you hate trying out a new team with a +21 -61 variation that you get haxed for the loss? I really wish coyotte reverted the minimum difference, even to +/- 150.

I'm for this. This 200 minimum bullshit is getting to be a pain in the ass higher up on the ladder. (1300+)

 

[XienZo]

You seem to understand that it was controversial, but can't comprehend that it was controversial because each Poke with Swift Swim wasn't broken with Drizzle. If Drizzle was banned, people would complain about the loss of Rain Stall/the potency of other styles because of a lack of rain. If Swift Swim was banned, then the "argument" you're using now would be stated again. This was the compromise.

Yeah, that's true... but I wasn't referring to any of that...

I fail to see how even disagreeing with the decision to ban SS + Drizzle is relevant to Sand Veil. Flinch Jirachi/Togekiss is worse in terms of abusing hax, and I believe someone said that "it's not hax because it's what they're meant to do". Essentially, an argument can be made that Garchomp is meant to have an attack miss once every 5 attacks under sandstorm. That's better than a 40% chance to attack (less with Paralysis).

Oh, if you check the context of the argument, it's about whether bans can be made based on principle or not. There's no direct comparison between SS/Drizzle and Sand Veil itself.

Anyway, IMO, a Sub-abusing Garchomp getting evasion hax is preferable to a regular Chomp getting evasion hax; the first one is (relatively) more consistent in getting a free turn, regardless of how the RNG may be acting on any single turn, whereas a single miss on the single attack used on a normal Chomp is far more dependent on a single RNG roll, and far more luck based.

 

[Jaroda]

Is anyone else having trouble against Sigilyph. I'll admit that its not used much because Reuniclus is hogging all the spot light but for the times that I do see it, it's a pain in the ass. It doesn't have near as much bulk and SpA as Reuniclus but what it does have it excells in. For instance Sigilyph has a much better movepool than Reuniclus which gives it a niche over it's bulky brother in it's main set. It's main set, the Psycho Shift is an absolute bitch to take down. When you actually think about it, Psycho Shift and Magic Guard allow it to set up on both offensive and stall teams with impunity. It also has much higher base speed (97) which while is a haxy number for game freak allows it to outspeed Reuniclus' major enemy Tyranitar in almost all that it does. (Of course you'd have to exclude the Scarf Set.) This means you cant switch in on Sigilyph with anything but the scarf set lest you wanna get burned. Even if you were to come in with your scarf tar there are 2 moves you cant go in on. Those being Pyscho Shift and Cosmic Power. Psycho Shift is a given but Cosmic Power allows Sigilyph to survive your crunch, use Psycho Shift, and roost off whatever limited damage you'll be giving it. Reuniclus' most major check is flat out useless against Sigilyph how do you like that. I would really like to know if there's a check for this thing so I can use it and finally start winning against this spawn of hell.

Conkeldurr with Stone Edge stands a very good chance if it comes in early. Sigilyph can't burn it thanks to Guts and Assist Power is laughably weak until a few CPs. If it isn't Roosting it's taking SE damage with a high crit ratio.

So can somebody run damage calcs? How much does a +1 Stone Edge do? Also, how much damage does a +1 Mach Punch do because it may be able to essentially OHKO it with a combination of the two.

Reuniclus with Shadow Ball also have the upper hand. Burn obviously does nothing and it also doesn't take weather damage. It resists Assist Power and Calm Mind negates the CP boosts. Shadow Ball also has more PP so if it runs out you have far more opportunities to crit it.