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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

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Doom Chaos said:
Thanks for the reply, but I have to point out the flaws in your logic. Ace Attorney Style...

Life Orb has a role here. It also depends on the dead Pokémon's current HP. Fire is an easy move to resist in OU (Bulky Waters, Dragons, Heatran...), so it shouldn't be too hard to switch in a Bulky Water or something to stop Blaziken. Common Bulky Waters are Vaporeon, which has Protect at all times with Wish, Milotic, which has Haze and Recover, Tentacruel, who completly shuts down Blaziken, Gyarados, who can intimidate Blaziken and then switch out on the Stone Edge, Starmie for being ultra-offensive and resisting the STABs and Slowbro for being having the same typing and better defenses. I just named the most common Bulky Waters, there still are Dragons and Flash Fire Pokémon who can take it down. No team is weak to Fire, so Blaziken can never wreck that much havock.
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Most bulky waters, as already said, at OHKO'd by a +2 Hi Jump Kick after Stealth Rock damage. You can't use the fact you can protect, because the Blaziken user can also predict that too - prediction goes both ways.

Gyarados, regardless of investment is OHKO'd by a +1 Stone Edge from Blaziken and dies to HP Electric from Mix Blaziken. The flying dragons also lose to Stone Edge with SR, while the grounded dragons die to Hi Jump Kick.

Seriously, the calcs and actual practical testing show just how devastating it is. Even without the sun, it's still absolutely absurdly powerful.

You can't just say things like "smart players will lure out Blaziken" because that's awful logic. You can not use prediction in these sorts of debates because it goes both ways.

Blaziken isn't easy to wall, not in the slightest. Along with Salamence and Hydreigon (which doesn't get a +1 speed for free at the end of every turn) it's one of the best wallbreakers in the game right now. The difference between those guys and Blaziken is: a) Salamence and Hydreigon are much easier to revenge kill; b) they often use moves (Outrage and Draco Meteor) which are extremely powerful but often put the user at a disadvantage.
 
TLK said:
Most bulky waters, as already said, at OHKO'd by a +2 Hi Jump Kick after Stealth Rock damage. You can't use the fact you can protect, because the Blaziken user can also predict that too - prediction goes both ways.

Gyarados, regardless of investment is OHKO'd by a +1 Stone Edge from Blaziken and dies to HP Electric from Mix Blaziken. The flying dragons also lose to Stone Edge with SR, while the grounded dragons die to Hi Jump Kick.

Seriously, the calcs and actual practical testing show just how devastating it is. Even without the sun, it's still absolutely absurdly powerful.

You can't just say things like "smart players will lure out Blaziken" because that's awful logic. You can not use prediction in these sorts of debates because it goes both ways.

Blaziken isn't easy to wall, not in the slightest. Along with Salamence and Hydreigon (which doesn't get a +1 speed for free at the end of every turn) it's one of the best wallbreakers in the game right now. The difference between those guys and Blaziken is: a) Salamence and Hydreigon are much easier to revenge kill; b) they often use moves (Outrage and Draco Meteor) which are extremely powerful but often put the user at a disadvantage.
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I understand now. I didn't read the +2 part, haha. Thanks. ;)
 
RestTalk Gyarados is still very sturdy like he was last gen, but the new sleep mechanics really fucked him over. If your Sleep Talk is unlucky with Dragon Tail/Roar selection, you won't even get to wake up.
 
Balziken is mild broken to me. It need set up and that oen turn is SOMETIME hard to get.

But remembering that is because i dont use nattrei on my team.... yeah
 
Anybody else having problem with Chlorophyll + Drought users? I think smogon should revise these combo bans like the drizzle/swift swim ban.

Not sure if this has been suggested but instead of completely banning drizzle/swift swim the bans should be something like if your team has drizzle you're only allowed one swift swim pokemon. For drought one chlorophyll user. Sand Stream teams allowed one sand rush.

This would be great because if you want to have more swift swim/chlorophyll/sand rush pokemon in you team you would have to get rid of you autoweatherer and have support pokemon invoke the weather for you. This would encourage more styles of play instead of having a heavily weather metagame but still allowing it to be powerful team.
 
lol I can use teh king of the rain omg and THATS all i EVER use in my frickin swift swim rain team !!!!! during stage 2 !!!

No way thats stupid
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Oh fuck now we can't use Stoutland with Excadrill
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Yes you can but you're gonna have to use the move sandstorm instead of relying on ttar/Hipdon. I'm not suggesting a ban of multiple sand rush users but a ban on multiple sandrush + sandstream.

But the main point of this ban isn't really about the sand combo abusers but for the swiftswim/chloroform. Since there's really only 3 poke with sandrush and 2 viable so I see no point of implementing this on sandteams aside from just making things "look" fair.


JSND said:
lol I can use teh king of the rain omg and THATS all i EVER use in my frickin swift swim rain team !!!!! during stage 2 !!!

No way thats stupid
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That's the point. The complain with drizzleswim teams were that it was difficult enough to knock out kingdra but then you had to deal with Ludicolo, Kabutops, Gorebyss, Qwilfish etc.

If you're just going to use Kingdra cool he's still a monster but then with this type of ban you wouldn't need to deal with any other swift swimmers.
Another thing Kingdra has the best coverage yes but I can definitely see the other Sswimmers still being useful.
 
I used my memory of Smogon's damage formula and a standard calculator program.

I believe those numbers are accurate. They also line up with my own experiences using Conkeldurr.
 
Benlisted said:
I've been somewhat quiet about this for a while, but the nominations thread is looking pretty strange and slightly worrying to me for several reasons.

For one, there are things being nommed with very little reasoning behind them - and any reasoning not really being relevant or explanative of brokenness or similar. This isn't an issue in itself, but when these nominees have also seen virtually no discussion in this enormous topic, it really makes you question justification for them quite seriously.

I primarily refer to the two weather effects being nominated, to be fair. Drizzle itself hasn't been talked about barely at all in this thread, and the same goes for Drought. Occasionally someone will bring it up briefly, but noone else continues discussion of it. I'm not trying to say that these are or aren't broken, just wondering why the hell all of a sudden they're getting nommed with no previous mention of them. It doesn't help that a few voters posted such things as "fuck weather" with little justification - causing me at least worry about a pervading anti-weather attitude left over from Gen 4. If weather is truly broken, then fine, ban it if it is proveable and unavoidable. But if the metagame is simply different for it, then, as we try to emulate the game itself and balance it where needed, surely we should just accept that Gen 5 is different?

A few other less focused issues are with the sheer variety of nominations, lack of even any reasoning behind them, and repeated nominations. The fact that there are such a huge variety of pokemon being nominated is an issue in itself - as this either points to an incredibly imbalanced meta or a fairly balanced one where we are to an extent nitpicking at aspects. This aside, it also creates a practical issue in that if so many suspects are tested at once, how are we to know if some things would not be broken without another? For instance Blaziken and Drought - if Drought is banned then would Blaz prove as unstoppable? Admittedly this is unlikely to occur in the actual voting stages, but just wanted to point it out. Repeated noms I have less issue with if conditions have become more favourable to the mon at hand - Excadrill being nommed again partly due to Drizzle's ban - but very few noms of it point this out, instead merely copypasting the nom from last round. More dubious are things like Latios being nommed again after nothing has seemingly changed in their favour since they were voted OU - this just seems like it'd reach the same result so it is just people trying to get the right voter pool to ban something they want gone even if it is voted OU.

A lot of this is opinion, so feel free to say you disagree, but I can't help feeling like some people are simply treating suspect testing as a chore or a means to create a meta they personally prefer, and just wanted to throw this out there :\. Admittedly I am not a voter so this may come accross as rude, I don't mean everyone by any means, it is just my worry about this community I really enjoy. If anyone has any comments feel free to rebute or whatever, just be aware I may not respond due to limited PC access. Would also love to see discussion of why either weather mentioned is broken currently, since I haven't thus far.
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Actually everything Benlisted said (from this quote to now) is exactly what I was thinking, and exactly why I posted the tallied nominations (at that time). I could UNDERSTAND why Blaziken was nommed, and I get why Excadrill was nommed (although I was surprised to see it because I figured he would be left alone this time). But Drizzle was barely talked about in this thread, and Drought was only talked about for about one and a half pages (IIRC). Most of what this suspect thread has been talking about is Sandveil/Snowcloak/Blaziken/Latios.

They wide variety of noms is also pretty interesting. As said, its either everyone nit picking, or people feel this metagame is very unbalanced...



But also, as another user pointed out, this meta right now just feels more like its "pseudo balanced." Everything is checking itself. All the gen4 ubers are able to compete with gen5 OU and it keeps the metagame using the same top 30 pokemon over and over and over and over and over.
 
I also agree with Benlisted. It seems to me that people are trying, subconsciously, to make fifth gen. more like fourth gen., having been comfortable with it for a long time, and not wanting to face the fact that it's simply a completely different metagame. I'm also not a voter, but I think that the sheer number of different things being nominated is slightly worrying. I mean:

Latios
Excadrill
Blaziken
Drizzle/Drought
Sandrush + Sandstream
Lax Incense/Brightpowder
Snow Cloak/Sand Veil

I mean come on. With particular emphasis on the last four. Sure it makes it a little more "haxy", but that's just part of the game. If we ban Sand Veil, we ban Garchomp, who IMO is definetly not broken in this metagame (yet =D). I've also heard a few people say that Latios and Excadrill can't be countered. Which is simply wrong, since Latios has two solid ones off the top of my head: Specially defensive Jirachi and Scarftar. Excadrill can be countered by Gliscor, Skarmory (well he can force him out at least or use him as set up bait), Bronzong etc. I guess I'm just repeating stuff many others have said before me, but people really seem a little too ban-happy...
 
I don't think the nominations are odd at all.

Latios and Excadrill are the usual suspects (though now that its been voted down twice I feel like people just want the right pool of voters, just my two cents)

Blaziken is beastly in Drought, which leads to noms for both.

Drizzle has been discussed before and last round, you can only discuss it so much. As for evasion, there is an entire thread dedicated to it alone.

Plus, not all players feel the need to document their every experience, which is fine. They'll nominate what they think is broken and the trash will be sorted out.
 
Nobody want to actually ban Sand Veil / Snow Cloak because they're broken.

They're just sore because they can't get Chomp banned directly, so instead they're trying to go an alternate route.

Chomp is literally the only Pokemon that can viably use an evasion ability, every single other Pokemon has either a better ability to be using or is just plain unusable. If it was really the ability's fault a lot more of these Pokemon would be used.

If Chomp, the ONLY Pokemon that can use these isn't even bannable, then why the hell are we trying to ban these again?
 
UltiMario said:
Nobody want to actually ban Sand Veil / Snow Cloak because they're broken.
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The evasion was implemented because evasion was deemed broken. I want it banned with the brightpoweder items to attempt to reduce the amount of hax.


Dory would be uber, and I have felt he should be, save for the one thing that saves him from ubers is his incredibly shallow move pool. The problem with blaze is that even out of the sun, he is a beast, and in the sun, he is a bigger beast who a lot of water types lose the ability to revenge kill.

As far as drought and drizzle noms, I would assume that is mostly because that those users probably share a thought that I myself have and some of you have: this meta-game is far to reliant on weather. They are just going about it the wrong way, without giving much evidence. The other half of the weather banners are just babies who don't want one weather to get too strong, so I wouldn't be too surprised if a lot of the drought users were players who were affected by Aldran's proposal.
 
Just another quick observation from the nominations thread - the community as a whole seems to be applying different standards to weather conditions.

In particular regarding Drizzle being nominated instead of Thundurus and/or Tornadus (though admittedly both Drizzle and these two have been nommed a lot). These are the only two Rain mons seemingly percieved as broken presently, and the weather ability is being nommed. This seems odd when SS has only one fewer abusers people have been nomming - Excadrill (excluding Landorus who has vanished from noms this round), and noone has even mentioned the weather itself. However, SS also activates Sand Veil, which is seemingly a big issue right now. To a lesser extent the same can be said of nominations for Drought and Blaziken, though Blaziken can obviously perform outside its preferred weather.

Anyway, it just seems like there is a little bit of confused standards going on - in terms of when it is okay to ban a weather ability and risk crippling a playstyle as opposed to banning a few abusers, and I wanted to ask if I'm looking into it too much or do others see this too?
 
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