Ok then, how else do you deal with it after it sets up? The only other way I can think of it to pick two priority abusers, and then one still dies... a fair enough tradeoff I guess though. But it's still far more restrictive than even Reinculus's two physical sweepers capable of doing >50%, since a lot less falls into the strong priority category.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Ok then, how else do you deal with it after it sets up? The only other way I can think of it to pick two priority abusers, and then one still dies... a fair enough tradeoff I guess though. But it's still far more restrictive than even Reinculus's two physical sweepers capable of doing >50%, since a lot less falls into the strong priority category.
Okay Texas. So Blaziken kills off the Ferrothorn you left in when you attempted to use Thunder wave. So now you're done one pokemon. Then you bring in Garchomp in order to force it out while you set up. Blaziken uses HP Ice and you die. Or Blaziken uses Hi Jump Kick. You use Sword's Dance since you're setting up. Then Blaziken uses Hi Jump Kick again and you've now lost two pokemon to a Blaziken who never used Sword's Dance.
Actually, forget all of that. Blaziken uses substitute (which is uncommon on wifi I admit) and then uses Sword's Dance. Oops. Now, not only did you waste two turns letting him set up, but you can't even priority him to death anymore.
I'm pretty sure fourth gen Garchomp wasn't considered broken before using sword's dance either, but that didn't stop him from running off to ubers when he did.
Now while you're right about playing to ensure that Blaziken doesn't set up, it isn't exactly the easiest thing of all time to stop. You could run a team that consistently lays down offensive pressure in order to stop him from ever getting the chance he needs, which is completely reasonable. I mean, the metagame doesn't dictate that we should spend teamslots to forretress, ferrothorn, jellicient, tentacruel, or any defensive pokemon whom Blaziken can take advantage of under the sun.
Edit: While I am not in the crowd who believes that there are only two ways to stop Blaziken, I simply cannot see him being anything lower than a #1 threat in the standard metagame.
Actually, forget all of that. Blaziken uses substitute (which is uncommon on wifi I admit) and then uses Sword's Dance. Oops. Now, not only did you waste two turns letting him set up, but you can't even priority him to death anymore.
I'm pretty sure fourth gen Garchomp wasn't considered broken before using sword's dance either, but that didn't stop him from running off to ubers when he did.
Now while you're right about playing to ensure that Blaziken doesn't set up, it isn't exactly the easiest thing of all time to stop. You could run a team that consistently lays down offensive pressure in order to stop him from ever getting the chance he needs, which is completely reasonable. I mean, the metagame doesn't dictate that we should spend teamslots to forretress, ferrothorn, jellicient, tentacruel, or any defensive pokemon whom Blaziken can take advantage of under the sun.
Edit: While I am not in the crowd who believes that there are only two ways to stop Blaziken, I simply cannot see him being anything lower than a #1 threat in the standard metagame.
@ Arc Tech
Fair enough point but the user can choose which pokemon to sacrifice. For example, if I`m facing a sun team and through the use of Wobbufett, Blakezin gets a SD on say, a Forretress, I can decide which pokemon have the least use aginst the team. Eg if I have Skarm, Forretress and Ferrothorn as well as Volcorona, Chandelure and Scarfed Mamoswine I can sac the three steels as they likely have little utility against a Sun team. Blazekin has set up and taken out 2-3 members of my team but has done considerably less damage to the core of the team for that battle than it might have.
Tbh the biggest Blazekin counter is team preview. To analogize, I am currently running a Rain team from the RMT "Rain done Right". If I see myself matched up against a Sand team, I`m going to keep my Scarfed Mamoswine protected from extensive ability for its ability to check many common Sand pokemon.
Similarly if my team is particularly Blazekin weak but I have a Thunderus I`m going to wait until that Blaze starts its sweep to expose it to much danger in order to get my priority T-Wave.
So yes, I some circumstances Blazekin can get 2-3 kills but by having a plan against it after seeing it in team preview I can wait for my chance to cripple it by sacrficing the least useful members of my team, the same can be said of any sweeper.
(By the way I highly reccommend Mamoswine as an excellent anti-meta pokemon. Whether a CB version, Scarfed or the max HP, Max Atk version with Icicle Crash/Stone Edge over Superpower/Ice Fang that I pioneered at the start of the round it never fails to be a useful member of the team when checking dangerous threats such as Excadrill (my bulky set), Thunderus (CB or CS are most reliable), Gliscor (any) and others.)
EDIT: At Alphatron, again, fair enough, but that is called prediction which we've established is not a strong enough reason to ban something. By that same token Thunderus is broken for similar reasons. Regardless, that is a hypothetical situation that requires prediction by the Blazekin user as well. What if the Garchomp is Scarfed? The Blaze user may not know that and very likely won't be risking their Blaze for the possible 2HKO. If it is a situation where the Blaze would attack it is probably late-game in which case I can almost guarantee the Garchomp isn't setting up What if the Blaze isn't running HP Ice? From the calcs people love to use Mixken seems to run HP Electric over Ice. Again, regardless, that is a hypothetical scenario, garchomp was just used to illustrate my point.
And you must admit that sets outside the standard do get you countered more easily. The SD+Sub set for example is hard countered by Chandelure or loses its power.
More Edits:
Wobbufett is more problematic, particularly against slow pokemon. With slow pokemon, your best bet is simply to spam your crippling move and hope that the Wobb runs Tickel over Safeguard. For offensive pokemon your best bet is to spam the move that would cripple Blaze. Wobb is very good at its job although Encore does only last 3 turns now.
Final edit: By no means do I thik that Blazekin isn't a top tier threat, i just don't think it, or Drought/Drizzle for that matter are broken.
I lied, another EDIT: Come to think of it, Swapert seems like it would be a pretty hard check unless Mixken can OHKO with Fire Blast as it can KO with Earthquake in return. If someone could run calcs that would be great as I've been seeing more Swamperts randomly these days, mostly on Sand teams which Blaze is hard pressed to set up against anyway.
Really Texas? Another EDIT: Also, 900th post, w00t!
Yeah, again. EDIT: Oh shi-, major derpage there, my bad alphatron.
Fair enough point but the user can choose which pokemon to sacrifice. For example, if I`m facing a sun team and through the use of Wobbufett, Blakezin gets a SD on say, a Forretress, I can decide which pokemon have the least use aginst the team. Eg if I have Skarm, Forretress and Ferrothorn as well as Volcorona, Chandelure and Scarfed Mamoswine I can sac the three steels as they likely have little utility against a Sun team. Blazekin has set up and taken out 2-3 members of my team but has done considerably less damage to the core of the team for that battle than it might have.
Tbh the biggest Blazekin counter is team preview. To analogize, I am currently running a Rain team from the RMT "Rain done Right". If I see myself matched up against a Sand team, I`m going to keep my Scarfed Mamoswine protected from extensive ability for its ability to check many common Sand pokemon.
Similarly if my team is particularly Blazekin weak but I have a Thunderus I`m going to wait until that Blaze starts its sweep to expose it to much danger in order to get my priority T-Wave.
So yes, I some circumstances Blazekin can get 2-3 kills but by having a plan against it after seeing it in team preview I can wait for my chance to cripple it by sacrficing the least useful members of my team, the same can be said of any sweeper.
(By the way I highly reccommend Mamoswine as an excellent anti-meta pokemon. Whether a CB version, Scarfed or the max HP, Max Atk version with Icicle Crash/Stone Edge over Superpower/Ice Fang that I pioneered at the start of the round it never fails to be a useful member of the team when checking dangerous threats such as Excadrill (my bulky set), Thunderus (CB or CS are most reliable), Gliscor (any) and others.)
EDIT: At Alphatron, again, fair enough, but that is called prediction which we've established is not a strong enough reason to ban something. By that same token Thunderus is broken for similar reasons. Regardless, that is a hypothetical situation that requires prediction by the Blazekin user as well. What if the Garchomp is Scarfed? The Blaze user may not know that and very likely won't be risking their Blaze for the possible 2HKO. If it is a situation where the Blaze would attack it is probably late-game in which case I can almost guarantee the Garchomp isn't setting up What if the Blaze isn't running HP Ice? From the calcs people love to use Mixken seems to run HP Electric over Ice. Again, regardless, that is a hypothetical scenario, garchomp was just used to illustrate my point.
And you must admit that sets outside the standard do get you countered more easily. The SD+Sub set for example is hard countered by Chandelure or loses its power.
More Edits:
First, Dual Screens and Memento don't give something that is Thinder Wving a whole lot of issue. Blazekin would still get paralyzed. Admittedly, Taunt/Memento Whimsicott is effective, but that is the sort of scenario one could counter by saying "well what if I have my Taunt/Thunder Wave Thunderus out against it.Arc Tech said:
Wobbufett is more problematic, particularly against slow pokemon. With slow pokemon, your best bet is simply to spam your crippling move and hope that the Wobb runs Tickel over Safeguard. For offensive pokemon your best bet is to spam the move that would cripple Blaze. Wobb is very good at its job although Encore does only last 3 turns now.
Final edit: By no means do I thik that Blazekin isn't a top tier threat, i just don't think it, or Drought/Drizzle for that matter are broken.
I lied, another EDIT: Come to think of it, Swapert seems like it would be a pretty hard check unless Mixken can OHKO with Fire Blast as it can KO with Earthquake in return. If someone could run calcs that would be great as I've been seeing more Swamperts randomly these days, mostly on Sand teams which Blaze is hard pressed to set up against anyway.
Really Texas? Another EDIT: Also, 900th post, w00t!
Yeah, again. EDIT: Oh shi-, major derpage there, my bad alphatron.
How is Blaziken killing 3 pokemon on its own again? This is just a blatant exaggeration.
-Blaziken switched into Stealth Rock on the turn Ferrothorn uses Spikes. 88%
-It SDs on the switch to Gliscor.
-Gliscor takes Flare Blitz. Blaziken takes 118 HP recoil (39% of its HP) and 10% from LO. 39%
-Conkeldurr used Mach Punch - KO. Azumarill used Aqua Jet - KO. Dragonite used ESpeed - KO. Lucario used ESpeed - KO. Scizor used Bullet Punch - KO. Mienshao used Fake Out - KO.
So Blaziken takes down one pokemon before going down itself, and it didn't even come into an attack move. MixKen may take down one pokemon, but it relies on 2 hits to do so as it cannot OHKO anywhere near the amount of things SDKen can.
If we could just stick to the facts and how the game actually works, that would be nice. Of course Blaziken is taking down 3+ pokemon if you do nothing but throw out pokemon that you know will die to it. Last gen, it would easily have been broken. This time around, team preview allows you to save your priority and tanks to stop Blaziken from decimating you starting turn 2 of the battle.
And Blaziken has options, but not all at once. HP Ice MixKen crushes Garchomp and Salamence but cannot take on Suicune, Slowbro, Vaporeon, or Gyarados. HP Electric runs into issues with Chomp and Mence.
Furthermore, switching in the likes of ScarfChomp immediately when you see Blaziken is not an unreasonable move as it resists fire and rock, two moves that Blaze typically runs. "But HP Ice Mixken!" No, that would be an example of the Blaziken user predicting your switch. SDKen with Protect are walled by things that resist its STABs, and if it has Stone Edge > Protect, it cannot outrun Garchomp by protect stalling for the second speed boost.
It is versatile, but every set has its own checks. Actually, it is somewhat reminiscent of 4th Gen's late UU Venusaur - versatile and powerful, and undoubtedly deserving of the #1 spot, but manageable.
Sorry Arc Tech, I didn't see this.
Blaziken applies to everything that Salamence does, except for SR weak. In exchange, Blaze is Spikes weak, lacks Intimidate, has less useful resists (bug and dark are usually weaker BP moves than water or fighting), and relies on riskier moves to sweep.
The difference in SR vs drought is that while every pokemon benefits from rocks, much fewer benefit from Drought (though admittedly the number is still large).
SR + a layer of spikes? SR + a layer of TWO spikes? That is definitely Blaziken benefitting from support, I can think of plenty of things that will accomplish the same with that support.
Mamo's Ice Shard will fail to KO at that health even with CB Adamant, but subsequent LO will kill them both.
-Blaziken switched into Stealth Rock on the turn Ferrothorn uses Spikes. 88%
-It SDs on the switch to Gliscor.
-Gliscor takes Flare Blitz. Blaziken takes 118 HP recoil (39% of its HP) and 10% from LO. 39%
-Conkeldurr used Mach Punch - KO. Azumarill used Aqua Jet - KO. Dragonite used ESpeed - KO. Lucario used ESpeed - KO. Scizor used Bullet Punch - KO. Mienshao used Fake Out - KO.
So Blaziken takes down one pokemon before going down itself, and it didn't even come into an attack move. MixKen may take down one pokemon, but it relies on 2 hits to do so as it cannot OHKO anywhere near the amount of things SDKen can.
If we could just stick to the facts and how the game actually works, that would be nice. Of course Blaziken is taking down 3+ pokemon if you do nothing but throw out pokemon that you know will die to it. Last gen, it would easily have been broken. This time around, team preview allows you to save your priority and tanks to stop Blaziken from decimating you starting turn 2 of the battle.
And Blaziken has options, but not all at once. HP Ice MixKen crushes Garchomp and Salamence but cannot take on Suicune, Slowbro, Vaporeon, or Gyarados. HP Electric runs into issues with Chomp and Mence.
Furthermore, switching in the likes of ScarfChomp immediately when you see Blaziken is not an unreasonable move as it resists fire and rock, two moves that Blaze typically runs. "But HP Ice Mixken!" No, that would be an example of the Blaziken user predicting your switch. SDKen with Protect are walled by things that resist its STABs, and if it has Stone Edge > Protect, it cannot outrun Garchomp by protect stalling for the second speed boost.
It is versatile, but every set has its own checks. Actually, it is somewhat reminiscent of 4th Gen's late UU Venusaur - versatile and powerful, and undoubtedly deserving of the #1 spot, but manageable.
Sorry Arc Tech, I didn't see this.
Blaziken applies to everything that Salamence does, except for SR weak. In exchange, Blaze is Spikes weak, lacks Intimidate, has less useful resists (bug and dark are usually weaker BP moves than water or fighting), and relies on riskier moves to sweep.
The difference in SR vs drought is that while every pokemon benefits from rocks, much fewer benefit from Drought (though admittedly the number is still large).
SR + a layer of spikes? SR + a layer of TWO spikes? That is definitely Blaziken benefitting from support, I can think of plenty of things that will accomplish the same with that support.
Mamo's Ice Shard will fail to KO at that health even with CB Adamant, but subsequent LO will kill them both.
And despite comments that its versatility makes it impossible to counter Icymans examples clearly illustrate how Team Preview makes checking/countering it that much easier. Last gen a team could be made to remove the checks and counters of a pokemon so it could sweep-hell I made a fairly successful team based around SubDDFlail Gyarados. However the nature of team preview allows you to save those checks and counters by keeping them away from potentially crippling hits. Besides, the nature of the metagame these days means that priority is omnipresent.
To add to Icymans example, I'm fairly confident that a CB Mamo can KO with Ice Shard from that health.
Also, if you are using Blazekin as a sweeper, which much of its brokeness argument revolves around it is coming in at the late game stage meaning you ropponent has many oppurtunities to get Stealth Rocks up.
To add to Icymans example, I'm fairly confident that a CB Mamo can KO with Ice Shard from that health.
Also, if you are using Blazekin as a sweeper, which much of its brokeness argument revolves around it is coming in at the late game stage meaning you ropponent has many oppurtunities to get Stealth Rocks up.
Aldaron? ._.
Swampert takes 109% minimum from +2 LO Hi Jump Kick and is 2HKO'd by sun boosted fire blast, unless specially bulky.
Just so I understand, icyman, you're saying that drought pushes Blaze over the edge, but without it, he's more manageable? I don't think drought pushes him over the edge, but it certainly assists his sweeping capabilities.
Swampert takes 109% minimum from +2 LO Hi Jump Kick and is 2HKO'd by sun boosted fire blast, unless specially bulky.
Just so I understand, icyman, you're saying that drought pushes Blaze over the edge, but without it, he's more manageable? I don't think drought pushes him over the edge, but it certainly assists his sweeping capabilities.
Lol Speed Boost pushes him over the edge.
Speed Boost makes him a top tier threat, not broken.
I think those reasonings have been clearly explained over the last 25 pages.
I think those reasonings have been clearly explained over the last 25 pages.
Well, yeah it does. Blaziken is a fire-type, so Drought helps several of his sets.
MixKen has essentially Specs + LO Fire Blast at its disposal with no drawbacks. SDKen can run Blaze Kick to still OHKO Gliscor (and thus anything below that), but now comes with the added bonus of no recoil and an increased chance of critical hit, which is crucial. If you run Flare Blitz under sun (overkill, IMO), you can even KO the likes of Suicune and physically defensive Jellicent, IIRC.
And then the fact that it sets up on bulky waters with relative ease is thrown into the mix (Vaporeon's Scald, Suicune's Surf, etc) make it all the more threatening.
Let's say Blaziken + Speed Boost + Drought is broken; which one we take out of the equation for us to have a better metagame?
Neither of them should be banned on their own. What should happen is that Blaziken + Drought on the same team should be banned, if there is to be a ban. I believe that if something is broken under a weather condition, it should be banned from teams using that weather. I agree with Thorhammer's stance that the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban should be replaced by a Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo + Drizzle, which then includes other Swift Swimmers that are deemed broken after testing.
heh can't wait til most of you noobs start facing work up hjk fblast filler blazikens
What about Stall+Blissey if she were "proven" to be broken?
Not if gets banned first!
When that happens, it's a weakness created by your own team. So yes, it's your job to prepare for that situation if you wish to get out of it, not to expect unnecessarily extensive bans to prevent the matchup from ever occurring.
Stall isn't an ability.
Well, it is, but I assume that isn't the meaning of "Stall" you're referring to.
...It took me a while to realize what ability you were talking about. And yes, Stall isn't an ability, it's a playstyle, just like Drizzle isn't a mere ability, but the essence of at least two playstyles ("rain offense" and "rain stall"); suggesting a Blaziken ban on the grounds that if a single pokémon by itself is broken under a certain weather, it must be banned only in that weather is akin to ban a pokémon in a certain playstyle it's broken in.
and I'm talking about single pokémon here, not the "broken team" aspect of Swift Swim + Drizzle
I had gotten the idea in me that we voted Swift Swim+Drizzle out because all Swift Swim pokemon in eternal rain are broken (well, not all of them), particulary a certain trio of them. I just think its a bit odd that you can get still get trolled by them if you run Drizzle yourself, technically be pitted up against "Uber" pokemon. Swift Swim Kingdra and Omastar are two "Ubers" that you will have to deal with at some point if you use DrizzleToad and they are nasty! If you're opponent knows your running Drizzle beforehand (throw in Specs Kingdra, broken if not for Ferrothorn) or you happen to find a Damp Rock team... good luck.
It is a complex ban already, and I don't have a better way to make a balanced metagame myself. Banning the broken Swift Swimmers one by one would be undesirable, especially when they're a very uncommon problem and you take away all the other assets of otherwise normal pokemon. Im not trying to argue my ban im just a guy who believes this metagame is fine besides this trolling factor.
Edit- Perhaps banning Drizzle and other perma weathers would be the better choice. It would reduce centralization, balance out weather abilities that automatically double your speed etc. but that would really damper the fun metagame we have now. It would be the simple choice, but I think if its only going to remove that specific instance where your unlucky enough to face a tailor made team to take advantage of opposing Drizzle, its not worth it at all.
It is a complex ban already, and I don't have a better way to make a balanced metagame myself. Banning the broken Swift Swimmers one by one would be undesirable, especially when they're a very uncommon problem and you take away all the other assets of otherwise normal pokemon. Im not trying to argue my ban im just a guy who believes this metagame is fine besides this trolling factor.
Edit- Perhaps banning Drizzle and other perma weathers would be the better choice. It would reduce centralization, balance out weather abilities that automatically double your speed etc. but that would really damper the fun metagame we have now. It would be the simple choice, but I think if its only going to remove that specific instance where your unlucky enough to face a tailor made team to take advantage of opposing Drizzle, its not worth it at all.
and what would that accomplish?, in the next suspect test we would still be talking about Droughts brokenness all over again just as we are still talking about Drizzles brokenness even though Ludi and Kingdra arent even in the picture anymore, in fact wed be talking about drizzle's brokenness even more since it would still have double speed stab boosted monsters besides them running around, i preffer doing it this way since we can still use those pokemon outside of drizzle + swift swift on the same team (in which they arent broken).
Oh yeah, and to the people who insist in saying that its those pokemon who are broken. In this current metagame those 3 pokemon are seperated from drizzle, and what is it taht people still ahve problems with and thats nominated for being broken again?, its Drizzle, not the pokemon. Those pokemon dont make drizzle broken, drizzle still seems stupidly powerful to alot of people even without those three around.
1)Not all weathers are created equal. Drizzle teams used to be broken, Drought and Sand teams are not. That's been shown through these metagames and all talk of a group ban of all weathers is just stupid and fallacious.
2)You can't avoid bad match-ups. Specs Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops are all really bad outside of a rain team, and still pretty crappy on an 8-turn rain team (compared to the other threats of the meta). If someone runs these things, you may lose, but next to no players do, in fact, run these things, so your point is meaningless. That's like saying Rivalry is broken because an all-male team can get destroyed by a Rivalry poke. It's just not relevant enough to merit any real discussion.
except that in thsi situation "broken" aspects are not aspects that come from them, its the influence of permanent rain availiable from a seperate ability of some other pokemon.
Isnt there such thing as Broken under support clause?
If Politoed, one pokemon, was banned then there would be no problem with those other pokes.... but if you ban those other pokes?, well drizzle is still stupidly overpowered.
whats broken here, drizzle?, or the other pokemon?... i saw its drizzle.
Every single pokemon can receive the same "influence" of having permanent rain though. Meanwhile, it's only certain pokemon that can take advantage of that "influence", and that's entirely due to that pokemon itself.
But whats broken?, weve already separated those pokemon from the weather and they are no longer a problem, but guess what is still the most overpowered of all the weathers?, and which is once again up for voting for a ban this round?, permanent rain thats what.
If were talking about whats broken and whats not, i say theres a stronger case for Drizzle being broken.
That is easily the best set. I don't understand why it isn't the standard one.
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