Rain alone won't kill you. Perhaps Tornelous and Thunderous, but not the rain alone. Simple as that.
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Rain alone won't kill you. Perhaps Tornelous and Thunderous, but not the rain alone. Simple as that.
if they wont kill you Starmie will, and if you get rid of that too then im sure something else will come up to kill you too.
what they all have in common is that without drizzle their killing ability decreases substantially.
Id rather get rid of drizzle politoed than 6 or 5 other pokemon that would be alot less problematic without drizzle.
5 pokes vs drizzle toed?, kick drizzle toed to the curb i say.
Yeah until the accuracy kills you. It won't even be others. You'll end up killing it just by virtue of it missing. Unless Work Up boosts accuracy, which it doesn't. Probably it's best set though.
The only thing I really don't like over Blaziken, is probably Gliscor and Latios. Latios basically forces me to run a specially defensive Steel just to stop it from cutting my team apart, and Poison Heal Gliscor is just stupidly difficult to kill. Roost variants weren't ever this annoying, and now I might just throw Ice Beam on everything just to make it die. He used to be something of a nuisance back in Generation IV, but now he's just frustrating now that every other team uses him. Yes, he's an excellent answer to Excadrill and some other physical hitters, but he also seems to cause every team of mine problems.
It's not like Luvdisc suddenly has 2x better Base Stats just because Kingdra is gone, y'know. Getting rid of broken pokemon won't suddenly grant worse pokemon new capabilities.
You realize that those 5 pokes, along with many others that aren't problematic, basically have no job without Drizzle, right? They can try normal rain dance and all, but their usage is still going to nosedive pretty badly.
Better kill off 5 then to send tens of pokemon into obscurity.
i hate when people bring up Ludvisc, nobody uses Luvdisc, nobody will ever use Luvdisc. If you wanna ban 5 pokemon in favor of promoting Luvdisk then you are insane, Luvdisk is irrelevant.
Quilfish?, all them other guys people like to bring up?, when we still had drizzle with swift swim nobody bothered with those guys, nobody cared. And dont you dare bring up Omastar, in rain that thing is a monster they would just ban that too eventually (people compalin about hydro pumps from politoed and kingdra just look at that monstrocity of Omastar).
Your trying to get rid of those pokemon that people actually bother with or cared enough to use for these other pokes that noone ever bothered with.
What needs to be killed is the actual problem here, drizzle, without drizzle there is not problem and there is no issue.
And no, 3 of those 5 are used and can be used well without drizzle.
And what pokemon being sent into obscurity are you talking about?, tens of pokemon?, are you talking about Ludvisc and Quilfish and those guys again, guess what buddy all of them are already in obscurity.
Besides Parasect and Toxicroak all the people we see in drizzle teams that benefit from it are still used without it. All them steel types that people like to use with rain for the fire resist and dragonite and guys like them, they are used outside of drizzle. Gorybyss and Huntail and their baton passing is used outside of it too.
Nothing is going to be "sent into obscurity", that is a fairy tail. whats in obscurity now will stay there.
There is no reason to get rid of 5 pokemon in order to keep drizzle, especially when drizzle is the root of all problems here.
I normally just lurk but this post was so bad I had to register just to tell you how wrong you are. The fact that drizzle takes a bunch of pokemon who would otherwise be worthless, even under damp rock rain, and makes them big threats just proves that drizzle is broken.
That's precisely the point. No one will ever use Luvdisc. Thus, even if we started to go down and ban the stronger rain abusers, the banning will stop WAY before we get to crap like Luvdisc, and we're not going to ban anywhere near a majority of abusers.
Because Quilfish actually had a niche in being the physical sweeper with different coverage from Kabutops? Not to mention that Politoed and Kingdra have decent bulk and types, while Omastar has more crippling weaknesses.
Said who? Don't be assuming I'm a pro-Swift-Swim banner just because I oppose the Drizzle ban.
What is Tornelous going to do without Rain that Thunderous can't? What are Kabutops and Ludicolo going to do?
How would we know if anything would come out of obscurity if we never actually had a situation where we allowed Drizzle + Swift Swim and banned the top abusers? For example, without Kabutops, Qwilfish would definitely be among the top physical sweepers in rain.
I agree on the first part, that those pokemon would otherwise be worthless. Nonetheless, it's entirely the Pokemon's characteristics that cause them to be broken under Drizzle. What's the difference between Ludicolo in rain and Moltres in rain? The former can take advantage of it, the latter can't. Thus, it's clearly a characteristic of the pokemon itself that leads it to being broken, not a characteristic of Drizzle as support.
The Luvdisc "hyperbole" is brought up so much because it is the extension of the logic others use. They say, Swift Swim and Drizzle together are broken, and that's just holistically untrue. Luvdisc will stop being brought up when people stop using utterly dim-witted arguments that the abilities are broken. It's been the Pokemon that are broken since day one, but people are just too lazy to deal with that fact.
The problem is that they are just as bad under damp rock rain, it's just harder to consistently maintain the broken status. All the broken attributes of these pokemon don't suddenly stop existing merely because Drizzle is banned, because Drizzle itself isn't the problem; Drizzle just exacerbated the problem.
The problem is that they are just as bad under damp rock rain, it's just harder to consistently maintain the broken status. All the broken attributes of these pokemon don't suddenly stop existing merely because Drizzle is banned, because Drizzle itself isn't the problem; Drizzle just exacerbated the problem.
Everybody knows that the pokemon were the broken ones. But we're not going to ban them when there are better options. Now with Drizzle allowed, the styles of 8-turn Rain, Rain Stall, and Rain Offense sans Swift Swim are all viable and existing. We preserved the maximum amount of playstyles with the least deviation.
This is also just a bad argument. What's the difference between Starmie holding Soul Dew and Latios holding Soul Dew? The latter can take advantage of it and the former can't. The advantage gained from permanent rain is just too big.
Rain wasn't broken in Gen 4, and I think it's largely because it wasn't possible for rain to become permanent. I don't think the advantage becomes insurmountable until the rain becomes permanent. In Gen 4, rain teams and regular teams tended to be on fairly equal footing, but in Gen 5, Drizzle teams have a really large upper hand.
I oppose Soul Dew ban too, BTW, since it's the only one that works like that. :/
And that's basically why (before Soul Dew ban), Lati@s were banned, not the Soul Dew itself.
And of course, you know what I'm going to state afterwards; that's why likewise, rain abusers should be banned. The support doesn't give everything massive boosts, only specific pokemon who have characteristics to abuse that support.
Is it the trigger that kills people, or the bullet? You can argue the semantics of that for a while but, when push comes to shove, the trigger can still fire non-lethal blanks, but a bullet doesn't have that option.
Like I said, Drizzle exacerbated a pre-existing problem that was only manageable because of the restrictions upon the problem that previously existed. But the fact remains, that when in Rain, these Pokemon are broken. Plain as that. The advantage may or may not be insurmountable, but the advantage still exists. Banning Drizzle just ignores the problem and gets it over with quickly, banning the Pokemon takes time and effort, and clearly that can't be asked from this community.
Drizzle is a single ability that radically changes the function of every other Pokemon on your team. No such ability exists for any stall team.
"Broken team" arguments are false and have no basis in Smogon's banning policy.
Not necessarily strictly true; for instance, sand stream boosting Rock type's special defence. Cradily becomes much better in the sand.
Sand doesn't affect every single Poke on your team though....Drizzle instantly makes everyone takes less from fire moves!
That's why I said "strictly"; you could be running an all rock team. (Note: if you're running an all rock stall team, you probably aren't winning much.)
If there was a stall Pokemon that was broken if and only if it got the SpD boost from Sandstorm, there would be a good reason to talk about banning the combination of that Pokemon and Sand Stream.
At present, however, no such Pokemon exists.
At present, however, no such Pokemon exists.
I'm having a really difficult time following your logic. Are you saying that all rain should be banned? Or that drizzle should be allowed to stay and that all pokemon who abuse it should be banned? What's the point of allowing the ability to stay if we're going to remove everyone who abuses it? Why not just ban the ability? You're not making much sense to me.
Here is why I think drizzle is broken: You are pretty much forced to build your team assuming you will face drizzle, meaning you literally HAVE to have a weather changer on your team. If something in the metagame forces you to do something you would not normally do, it is broken. I'd go so far as to say that drizzle is more OP than individual pokemon like Latios because drizzle doesn't only effect pokemon like ludicolo, but ferrothorn and scizor are now even harder to bring down. Drizzle impacts the entire game.
Personally I do see the effective crippling of a playstyle as a bad thing, as would happen if Drizzle were banned (for anyone who disagrees look at just how dominant even Rain Dance teams weren't in Gen 4 OU as a reasonable example). However, things are getting to the point now where I can see where the supporters of a Drizzle ban are coming from in terms of beginning to cause harm to the metagame from banning things which have value on other teams - namely Thundurus at present. I still think that banning even say Thundurus and Tornados even would be preferable to removing Drizzle and Rain as a playstyle, howeve - since even though, as Thorhammer points out playstyles are not something in smogon policy, their diversity is something I find important to the meta. I honestly still think it would've been better just to ban Kingdra, Ludicolo and maybe Kabutops and see how Drizzle panned out, and in the current situation to ban any broken abusers similarly and see how to goes. I can't help but feel like we may be taking the easy way out rather than choosing the most appropriate bans.
Just as a quick prediction, the things whose usage would obviously be almost if not killed by Drizzle's ban would be Politoed, Tornadus, Parasect, and Toxicroak - on top of all the Swift Swimmers currently banned. DNite's use as a Rain abuser would be killed, as would Hydration abuse sets for Lapras and Empoleon's use as an endgame sweeper (who in this gen is somewhat inferior to many others). Other effects may include Azumarril's usage dropping because Sun becomes more dominant, neutering his main STAB, and similar other unpredicted things. Ferrothorn's usage may well drop significantly since Rain was one of his major abusers and with Sun around his weakness is incredibly easy to exploit. Basically, the metagame will change hugely and unpredictably based upon the banning of a weather ability, and I do not believe this will be beneficial to us creating a stable, balanced and diverse metagame, as well as one similar to the meta Nintendo gave us, which is admittedly less important.
I also just want to point out that just because something new makes a previously NU/UU pokemon viable does not mean it is broken. Prime examples are Slowbro's Regeneration, Cloyster's Shell Smash, etc. This logic just does not stand up.
Just as a quick prediction, the things whose usage would obviously be almost if not killed by Drizzle's ban would be Politoed, Tornadus, Parasect, and Toxicroak - on top of all the Swift Swimmers currently banned. DNite's use as a Rain abuser would be killed, as would Hydration abuse sets for Lapras and Empoleon's use as an endgame sweeper (who in this gen is somewhat inferior to many others). Other effects may include Azumarril's usage dropping because Sun becomes more dominant, neutering his main STAB, and similar other unpredicted things. Ferrothorn's usage may well drop significantly since Rain was one of his major abusers and with Sun around his weakness is incredibly easy to exploit. Basically, the metagame will change hugely and unpredictably based upon the banning of a weather ability, and I do not believe this will be beneficial to us creating a stable, balanced and diverse metagame, as well as one similar to the meta Nintendo gave us, which is admittedly less important.
I also just want to point out that just because something new makes a previously NU/UU pokemon viable does not mean it is broken. Prime examples are Slowbro's Regeneration, Cloyster's Shell Smash, etc. This logic just does not stand up.
I agree with everything Benlisted ^ said about this current situation...
I feel like there are too many culprits in this generation that are destroying the meta, especially with all the 4th gen ubers who are allowed. This meta isn't BAD, but it isn't GREAT either, its just so stuck in this bubble of pseudo balance in which we repeat the same pokemon over and over.
If drizzle drops, the meta game is going to twist and mutate into chaos and everything will change substantially, and we won't be able to predict the outcome of the cascade of bans to come, but then again, that happens with every single ban anyways. We lose diversity by losing an entire play style (drizzle/drought) but we may also send everything into a downward banning spiral, which most likely may end up being the case, just like Alderon predicted.
The only thing this generation I found to be really ridiculous is Blaziken, and yet people blame it on drought for buffing him.
I should say this though. I don't really care for weather personally. When building a team, I try to stick to more balanced playstyles that dont rely on weather. It wasn't until this generation that I truly committed to making a rain stall team, and I enjoyed it very much, but even then, I haven't played it in months (I pull it out every now and again just because it works and is fun). And even ever since that Rain Stall team I made, I have only started to try and make a weather team again with in the past week, working on a Sand/Rain duel weather combo (which was working surprisingly well in the first few games I tried it in). What I am getting at, is I don't really defend rain or sun because I like playing with it... I defend weather only because I enjoy the diversity of play styles, or at least the IDEA of it... Now if only we can get diversity and still maintain balance...
I feel like there are too many culprits in this generation that are destroying the meta, especially with all the 4th gen ubers who are allowed. This meta isn't BAD, but it isn't GREAT either, its just so stuck in this bubble of pseudo balance in which we repeat the same pokemon over and over.
If drizzle drops, the meta game is going to twist and mutate into chaos and everything will change substantially, and we won't be able to predict the outcome of the cascade of bans to come, but then again, that happens with every single ban anyways. We lose diversity by losing an entire play style (drizzle/drought) but we may also send everything into a downward banning spiral, which most likely may end up being the case, just like Alderon predicted.
The only thing this generation I found to be really ridiculous is Blaziken, and yet people blame it on drought for buffing him.
I should say this though. I don't really care for weather personally. When building a team, I try to stick to more balanced playstyles that dont rely on weather. It wasn't until this generation that I truly committed to making a rain stall team, and I enjoyed it very much, but even then, I haven't played it in months (I pull it out every now and again just because it works and is fun). And even ever since that Rain Stall team I made, I have only started to try and make a weather team again with in the past week, working on a Sand/Rain duel weather combo (which was working surprisingly well in the first few games I tried it in). What I am getting at, is I don't really defend rain or sun because I like playing with it... I defend weather only because I enjoy the diversity of play styles, or at least the IDEA of it... Now if only we can get diversity and still maintain balance...
thank you, there is no reason to change thinsg from th way there are now, some people just are hung up over banning a few pokemon so taht Luvdisc and Quilfish maybe have a chance to shine. Leave things as is.
First of all, no pokemon are banned, you just cant have them on your team with drizzle on it as well, theres nothing stoping people from using Golduck or Quilfish except for the fact that they arent good.
And taking the easy way out?, has it ever crossed youir mind that p[people just dont want to ban any of those pokemon?, huh?, and maybe feel taht drizzle is betterr gone than them?, tahts certainly how i feel, its not about taking an easy routes.
Id rather have Tornadus and Kingdra adn Thunderus in the game then drizzle.
Tbh most of that "reasoning" you're referring to is a bunch of bs about Sturdy Steelix and people bitching about Sand Veil hax.
Why do people act like Swift Swimmers are banned...you know if you're facing so many Drizzle and Politoed teams...why don't you just make a Swift Swim team and if you face someone who tries Rain...they're absolutely fucked, cause seriously, no one tries to prepare for Kingdra and Kabtops anyways except for the ALWAYS-USED-REGARDLESS-OF-WEATHER Ferrorthorn.
It's not like the team is useless without the opponent using Drizzle either. If they don't use any weather at all, your 8 turn Rains will feel like infinite rain. And if they have Tyranitar and Ninetales, let's face it, when you skim that team preview, you're a lot more careless with your weather starters when you see that they don't have their own.
Stop bitching over everything
It's not like the team is useless without the opponent using Drizzle either. If they don't use any weather at all, your 8 turn Rains will feel like infinite rain. And if they have Tyranitar and Ninetales, let's face it, when you skim that team preview, you're a lot more careless with your weather starters when you see that they don't have their own.
Stop bitching over everything
I absolutely agree. However, within those 25 pages of bitching I am confident you can find 5 posts that provide well thought out, well explained resonings for why Blaziken is not broken, which contain some points which have not been disproved.
Before anyone asks, no I wont go find them because after all, you people (Blaziken is broken arguers) are the ones that have to prove something is broken, not the other way around.
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