CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 10a - (Attacking Moves Discussion)

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I have something to bring up on the topic of the Volt Switch/U-Turn point. People are arguing that Volt Switch might not be as good on Tomohawk because it will lose momentum when a Ground-type switches in. However, I view this as a good thing. If I know anything at all about Tomohawk, I know that it can't be able to effortlessly switch in and give momentum to you without fail. There has to be some kind of flaw in its abilities. Making Ground-types immune to one of its big momentum-gaining mechanisms may actually be a good thing, as we overlook the fact that even a NonSTAB Volt Switch coming off 115 Base Special Attack can hurt. It will also give people a reason to use U-Turn, as it has no immunities. Therefore, they should both be allowed.

Also, this will be highly contraversial, but I think Close Combat should be allowed. My reasoning for this is that despite all our discussion that Tomo shouldn't be able to beat any kind of wall (which I totally agree with) it needs to be able to run some surprising moves. After all, making an unpredictable move is a great way of gaining momentum. With Close Combat, Tomohawk will be able to beat its two (likely) greatest counters, Chansey and Blissey. The reason that this will not be broken is that Tomo has only four moveslots. The way this CAP is going right now, a likely standard moveset looks like Aura Sphere/Air Slash (Hurricane maybe)/Roost (or other utility move)/Volt Switch (U-Turn), not to polljump. Running Close Combat will greatly reduce the utility of any set Tomohawk can run, as it will force Tomohawk to give up a valuable utility move or a decently powered STAB move. In addition, Tomo will have to split its EVs greatly to beat Chansey even with Close Combat. In conclusion, Close Combat is a greatly niche move and should be allowed.
 
I dislike Volt Change - a lot. While smash is correct in the fact that this Pokemon's ability to keep and gain momentum cannot be perfect, having 85 base speed already does that. U-Turn all the way!

Super Fang: Fuck yes. Knocking off half the opponent's HP in just one move is great and really fucks over stall team's momentum by forcing them to switch to a Wish-passer if the Pokemon lacks a recovery move or forcing that Pokemon to use a recovery move. Switch in, Super Fang , then proceed to U-turn/Tornado/etc. Basically, Super Fang rapes stall sideways. Except for Ghost-types.

Fake Out should be put in, if only for scouting purposes. Fake Out is a scouter's best friend, and helps the user of CaP1 to make intelligent moves based on what the opponent switches in. Fake Out helps gain momentum when CaP1 is put into the lead position, although otherwise it is inferior to using U-Turn on the switch.

Icy Wind is a great move to force switches. Icy Wind nullifies the opponent's ability to sweep and negates CaP1's speed issues (more or less). Icy Wind also forces switches and negating any speed boosts the opponent's Dragon Dancers or other speed boosters may have accumulated, gaining momentum for the user and losing it for the opponent.

Energy Ball/Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Heat Wave/Giga Drain/Grass Knot/Lava Plume/Muddy Water/Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump: FUCK no. Thy offer way to much coverage, promoting an LO Sweeper (remember Kril?), and basically letting CaP1 kick far too much ass.

Psychic/Psyshock: Not really :/ Psychic- and Flying-type coverage is extremely redundant and not necessary. Psyshock also may a bit too powerful, but I'd rather use Brave Bird.
 
I think that most special 'beam' moves should not be given to Tomohawk (sigh, Gyphoon ftw) By that I mean, that Tomohawk should not get Dragon Pulse, fire moves, water moves or electric moves.

I want to force Tomohawk to use a semi-support moveset. I like Super Fang, Dragon Tail and Fake Out. Some priority like Vacuum Wave would be good. I also think that its STAB movepool should not be limited very much. Volt Charge should also be given to it along with other contact moves.

I'm not sure whether or not giving it Aura Sphere is a good idea. Like I said before I want it to have a support role, but I think that maybe make Aura Sphere illegal with a few important things to limit it.

Crunch
Dragon Claw
Earth Power
Fake Out
Foul Play
Giga Drain
Grass Knot
Hurricane
Rock Blast/Rock Slide/Stone Edge
Super Fang
Volt Switch
Acrobatics
Air Slash
Aura Sphere
Brave Bird
Superpower
Drain Punch
Drill Peck
Focus Blast
Hammer Arm
Mach Punch
Vacuum Wave
 
I think that the most important and controversial moves mentioned so far are Icy Wind, Volt Switch and special coverage moves. I believe that all of these moves should be disallowed. I don't like Icy Wind simply because of the Speed drop, which can royally screw over intended checks like Tornadus and Thundurus when even Hidden Power Ice couldn't have done so. The coverage moves are dangerous to allow because I don't think that we want to turn this CAP into "just another attacker"; instead, we should encourage it to use non-attacking moves like Substitute and Toxic regardless of which ability it uses. In particular, Fire can screw over bulky Steels that are Fighting-neutral, which I believe should check Tomohawk (as I said in the Counters Discussion). I do sort of worry that Intimidate might want some of these to compete with Prankster...

Volt Switch is a complicated one. Mainly, I don't think that Volt Switch is the right "switching move" to have on Tomohawk, and I don't think that it should have been in the attacking moves discussion in the first place considering Hidden Power Electric exists. Volt Switch is simply less "precise" in fulfilling the concept than U-turn is, being blocked by Ground-types and possibly encouraging Choice Specs a bit. Additionally, it would most likely be favoured over U-turn if both are in the movepool, and it would probably end up being a "fanboy vote gathering requirement" in movepools. I don't like the idea of having to include Volt Switch to get votes...
 
To focus this discussion a bit further, the million dollar question is which of Tomohawk's proposed counters we consider untouchable--my initial list assumes that Reuniclus, Lati@s, Thundurus and Zapdos should be on that list. The attacking movepool, especially the moves in Pending, should reflect whether or not we want an assortment of other counters and checks--the Grass moves play a significant part in determining whether Jellicent is a counter, the Fire moves affect SpD Skarmory; Volt Switch is here instead of in non-attacking moves 100% because of Gyarados. Volt Switch is basically HP Electric++; few people are likely to use HP Electric just for Gyarados, but if Tomohawk has Volt Switch, it is quite likely to use it fairly often. While in theory Tomohawk handles Gyara just as well with HP Electric as with Volt Switch, in practice Volt Switch would make a big different since it greatly increases the likelihood of Tomohawk actually using an Electric move.

With that in mind, I am especially interested in hearing competitive opinions on Icy Wind--it obviously helps Tomohawk a great deal, but I am concerned that it could totally eliminate Thundurus as a Tomohawk counter.

Edit: I changed the status of several moves to reflect the discussion thus far. I'd like to hear more thoughts on Hurricane!
 
reachzero said:
To focus this discussion a bit further, the million dollar question is which of Tomohawk's proposed counters we consider untouchable--my initial list assumes that Reuniclus, Lati@s, Thundurus and Zapdos should be on that list. The attacking movepool, especially the moves in Pending, should reflect whether or not we want an assortment of other counters and checks--the Grass moves play a significant part in determining whether Jellicent is a counter, the Fire moves affect SpD Skarmory; Volt Switch is here instead of in non-attacking moves 100% because of Gyarados. Volt Switch is basically HP Electric++; few people are likely to use HP Electric just for Gyarados, but if Tomohawk has Volt Switch, it is quite likely to use it fairly often. While in theory Tomohawk handles Gyara just as well with HP Electric as with Volt Switch, in practice Volt Switch would make a big different since it greatly increases the likelihood of Tomohawk actually using an Electric move.

With that in mind, I am especially interested in hearing competitive opinions on Icy Wind--it obviously helps Tomohawk a great deal, but I am concerned that it could totally eliminate Thundurus as a Tomohawk counter.
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After thinking about it a bit, I kind of agree on Icy Wind. While I still think Thundrus would beat Tomohawk 1v1 even with Icy Wind, slowing Thundrus down allow you to keep momentum on you side even if you lose the individual match up. As such, I think if we want Thundrus as a full counter we should avoid Icy Wind.

On the matter of Volt Switch, I would prefer if it did not get it. As you said, if it does get it, then people will probably use it a lot allowing it to severely hurt Gyarados, and do more significant damage to bulky waters (non ground ones, that is) while maintaining momentum. As I believe the bulky waters should at least be a check if not a counter, I think it would be best to avoid Volt Switch.

Though by the way you worded it, it sounds like U-Turn, if considered would be considered as a non damaging move. Is that right? Cause if so then I will just wait til that thread to talk about it.

As far a Skarmory, I don't think it really needs to be a counter and as such I don't mind having Fire moves. However, as someone previously mentioned, we don't want Tomo to have too many good coverage moves to avoid it becoming a sweeper. As such I think Heat Wave would be the best fire move for it. It is poweful enough to be useful for beating steels like Skar, but inferior to Flamethrower and Fire Blast as far as sweeping goes. (Plus, every bird got it in gen IV anyways, so it satasfies my flavor side)
 
I think there's a good case for Flamethrower and Heat Wave to be allowed. Skarm really shouldn't be a good counter for Tomohawk, as nothing kills your momentum like spikes being set up. Flamethrower/Heat Wave also give good damage options for Forretress, Nattorei, and Scizor, some more Pokemon that like to set up stuff. Coverage-wise, Fire hits Steel, Bug, Grass, and Ice SE. Each and every one of those types is hit for SE by either Flying or Fighting, so we're not improving overal coverage much.
 
I like the idea behind adding Icy Wind to the movepool. The speed drop can mess up Thundurus on the switch-in, but Tomohawk need not be threatening to it otherwise. Thundurus can just Thunder it away if it stays in. It is not that Icy wind makes Thundurus not a counter, but rather a less reliable one. Momentum can be gained from either player if they predict correctly, and that I feel contributes to the purpose of Tomohawk.

I am leaning towards allowing Volt Switch as well. It is certainly a great momentum-gaining move, unless the opponent switches in a Ground-Type. Having it on a Choice set means that it could be a potential lure for Excadrill (that Tomohawk is supposed to otherwise counter) is something that should be considered when discussing the momentum-related aspects of the move, a trait which can be a real plus for this CAP.

Heat Wave is pretty similar to Flamethrower while actually being flavorful. It might encourage its use in the sun, but that may not be a bad thing. I am not an expert on the current metagame, but I see no real harm in allowing it as an egg move or something. It hits some key things harder than its other moves, but it is kind of redundant offensive comerage most of the time. It would not hurt my feelings if it were not included, though.

Super Fang is a move I am on the fence about. It gives it an almost uncounterable feel that maybe even detracts from the ability of creating momentum by forcing switches. With a relatively unimpressive Speed stat Super Fang might not see much use, but it could come in handy at times I suppose. It probably has better things to do anyway. If used correctly, it may be a clear turning point in some situations, which would be good for the sake of momentum. I don't know about this one.

Hurricane seems like a bad idea. Tomohawk is not really supposed to be able to kill a lot of things on its own, or even hit a lot of things particularly hard. It is just not beneficial to Tomohawk's purpose, and it just doesn't feel right to me to include it in the movepool. Air Slash is good enough and has a nice flinch chance against slower things. Hurricane is not necessary.
 
petrie911 said:
I think there's a good case for Flamethrower and Heat Wave to be allowed. Skarm really shouldn't be a good counter for Tomohawk, as nothing kills your momentum like spikes being set up.
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I think Heat Wave should be allowed, but Flamethrower should not. Heat Wave's lower PP and imperfect accuracy makes it harder to sweep with, while still allowing Tomohawk to take care of Skarmory. That said, can anyone do some calcs to see how much damage Tomohawk's Aura Sphere would do to various builds of Skamory? I think that would be useful information to have as we debate whether a Fire-type move is necessary.

Petrie's comment about Spikes killing momentum also got me thinking...should Tomohawk get Rapid Spin? Getting rid of entry hazards is always a useful thing to do, and it would give Tomohawk a bit more utility. Sure, a Fighting/Flying type doesn't pose much a threat to common spin blockers like Gengar and Jellicent (unless we end up giving it Shadow Ball). But it could be a great surprise if the opponent predicts incorrectly.
 
U-turn and Volt Switch are nigh synonymous with the concept of momentum; we'll need those in Tomo's movepool for sure. Aura Sphere clocks in at 47% max on Sp. Def Skarm, so I guess Heat Wave will be needed too. Keep in mind we're also hurting Jirachi, if that's of any concern.

Do not allow Head Smash. LO sets can use it to KO Zapdos and other such foes on the switch. He doesn't even need any attack EVs. Any weaker Rock move is fine, since they'll all do pathetic damage.

My only concern with Hurricane is that it will completely eliminate Reuniclus as a counter. If we're adamant on having him take this guy under any circumstances, don't give him an auto-2HKO hand cannon.
 
The thing about putting Icy Wind in Tomohawk's allowed moves is that what is Tomo going to use it for? Thundurus, and that's about it. If it does this, it's giving up a valuable moveslot it could probably use more effectively with another move. Therefore I feel Icy Wind should be allowed, as it will be a niche move used to check Thundurus and Thundurus only.
 
Some thoughts:

Icy Wind, though controversial, seems to be to be a wise addition to Tomohawk's move pool. Given that Tomohawk is built for momentum, I think the ability to use priority, especially against the ever-prevalent Dragon-type is particularly important, all the more so since Ice Beam has been "disallowed".

Psychic/Psyshock, as a Flying/Fighting type, I think giving Tomohawk Psychic moves is going a little too far. And, although useful, these two moves in particular seem to me to be overpowered. A far more typical move, which I suggest instead if we go the Psychic route, would be Zen Headbutt.

Dragon Claw and Crunch are in my mind perfectly fit for Tomohawk, especially Crunch given its flinch chance (very good for momentum) as well as in giving Tomohawk some Dark moves to play with, which good given the types it's weak against.

Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Acrobatics are practically necessities for their incredibly useful Stabs and competitive uses (Acrobatics especially if we want to go for a no-held item set).

Still thinking about the rest, but that's my preliminary thoughts
 
reachzero said:
Edit: I changed the status of several moves to reflect the discussion thus far. I'd like to hear more thoughts on Hurricane!
Click to expand...

I think what swayed me on Hurricane was two things: 1) the 30% confusion chance, and more importantly 2) it can't miss in rain

Because of Tomohawk's Flying weakness to electricity, lots of pokemon trying to counter will probably be using rain as a way of getting the 100% Thunder. As such, we need a move of like power (Hurricane is also 120) that can deal damage to those bulky waters like Kyogre. Additionally, its ability to hit opponents during their semi-invulnerable turns during Fly, Bounce, and Sky Drop, is a key way to regain momentum.
 
Hurricane.

252+ LO Tomohawk (w/ Prankster Roost who wouldn't?):
vs. 252/0 Skarmory: 51.2% - 60.5% (outsped and 2HKO'd)
vs. 4/0 Thunderus: 51.3% - 60.7% (can force out once, can't switch in twice)
vs. 252/0 Reuniclus: 69.3% - 81.6% (outsped and 2HKO'd)
vs. 4/0 Tornadus: 103% - 121.3% (OHKO'd)
vs. 252/0 Jellicent: 60.9% - 71.5% (outsped and 2HOK'd)
vs. 252/252+ Jellicent: 44.1% - 52.2% (outsped and likely 2HKO with SR))

As in "These aren't good switch-ins to Tomohawk."

vs. 192/0 Zapdos: 37.9% - 44.7% (HP-Ice: 59.6% - 70.5%)
vs. 252/0 Blissey: 27.7% - 32.8% (Focus Blast: 55.5% - 65.5%)
vs. 252/240+ Skarmory: 35% - 41.3% (Focus Blast: 70.1% - 82.6%)
vs. 4/0 Jirachi: 37.4% - 44.2% (Focus Blast: 74.9% - 88.6%)
vs. 252/252+ Jirachi: 22.8% - 26.7% (Focus Blast: 46.8% - 55.2%)
vs. 252/0 Rotom-W: 39.8% - 47% (Focus Blast: 79.9% - 94.1%)

I suppose we only really want Zapdos or Jirachi being mediocre defensive switch-ins? For reference, Hawk currently has access to Heat Wave/Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast (potentially) for any Steel or Rock types that want to switch into this resist.

Yes, Hurricane is a totally awesome move, but Flying is a solid neutral attacking option in this metagame (akin to Dragon), especially considering the fact that CAP has STAB Fighting to plug most of the coverage holes. With the kind of damage Hurricane can do, I can't help but think we'll try to limit ourselves in future stages ("We can't have Roost! With Prankster and Hurricane that's broken!") or at least get thrown off track as far as the concept is concerned. This CAP doesn't need high-powered attacks to do its job, especially when said high-powered attack distracts people from what the CAP is trying to accomplish and turns into a fanboy voting requirement. One last Calc set for you:

Modest LO Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 252/0 Cresselia: 45.9% - 54.3%
Naive LO Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Cresselia: 47.5% - 56.1%
Modest Scarf Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Cresselia: 45.3% - 53.4%

I say we nip this problem in the bud. Alternatively, we could just encourage folks to use Tomohawk offensively by abusing one of the best attacking moves in the game. My opinion is Hurricane for Disallowed.
 
I'm not sure why Hurricane should be disallowed based only on the above. You don't mention the obvious drawback that Hurricane only has 70% accuracy. Of course you could say, it's not stopping some pokemon from running Focus Blast, but that's because those pokemon don't have a reliable special fighting attack to fall back on (Gengar, Reuniclus), while Tomohawk has a Air Slash to fall back on.

Hurricane only becomes reliable when put on a rain team, or when up against a rain team. I agree that he might have some merit on a rain team, but I'd rather put Dragonite on a rain team as the main Hurricane abuser, as it also gets access to Thunder, and it seems like this is going to be omitted from Tomohawk's movepool.

And when you want to spec your Tomohawk specifically to be able to steal back momentum from rain teams, does it matter it then can hit Thundurus that badly? Because for the 3-4/5 matchups that you're not up against a rain team, that Hurricane becomes a liabilty.

I agree it's an amazingly strong move under the right conditions, but becomes a liability if not. If you're betting on Tomohawk to win you an important matchup to regain momentum, and you miss a move and lose a turn because of it, it's very counter-productive to the concept. So for that reason, I think that Hurricane will not be common on an average moveset, just specialized rain based niche concepts.

I'd rather see Hurricane up for Allowed, and leave it to the movepool builders whether or not they'd want to include it. I don't think it's fierce enough to warrant not being available to movepool builders. Of course, anyone can choose to not have it in their movepool submission, but I'd like to see the disallowed list only contain a bare necessity of moves that are sure to break Tomohawk and should not be in any possible movepool. To me Hurricane does not fit that list, just for the 70% accuracy problem.
 
Korski said:
252+ LO Tomohawk (w/ Prankster Roost who wouldn't?):
vs. 252/0 Skarmory: 51.2% - 60.5% (outsped and 2HKO'd)
vs. 4/0 Thunderus: 51.3% - 60.7% (can force out once, can't switch in twice)
vs. 252/0 Reuniclus: 69.3% - 81.6% (outsped and 2HKO'd)
vs. 4/0 Tornadus: 103% - 121.3% (OHKO'd)
vs. 252/0 Jellicent: 60.9% - 71.5% (outsped and 2HOK'd)
vs. 252/252+ Jellicent: 44.1% - 52.2% (outsped and likely 2HKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Cresselia: 45.9% - 54.3%
Click to expand...
Holy shit. I like that kind of power against Skarmory and Reuniclus since I don't think Tomohawk should allow them to set up Spikes or Trick Room, but 2HKOing Thunderus, Jellicent, and Cresselia and OHKOing Tornadus is a bit ridiculous. I'm kind of doubting Hurricane myself, now.

Shaky accuracy helps, though.
 
Just wondering, why is U-turn not on the list or is it in the same case as Volt Switch being controversial? I mean i wouldn't mind firing off weaker powered u-turns without the worry of a ground type switch in compared to a more powerful volt switch which is stopped cold by ground type immunity causing you to lose your momentum which goes against the CAP's basic concept.
 
U-turn is considered a non-attacking move for our purposes here because its main function would be to switch out of battle as opposed to doing damage. It will be discussed in the Non-Attacking Moves Discussion, which will come after this thread and the Attacking Moves Poll.

Back to Hurricane:
I will submit that 70% accuracy is fairly balancing for an attack like Hurricane, however my post was intended to show what kind of damage potential it had for Tomohawk's likely switch-ins. In the concept assessment thread, many users suggested that creating a specific and effective group of checks and counters would be integral to aiding CAP's user in maintaining control over a match. If you give Tomohawk even a potential set to maim its likely switch-ins, suddenly you're playing against Hawk like you would any other offensive threat and you've lost the concept (or at least a big part of it). Still, those calcs are mainly against Pokemon that are bulky and/or resist the attack. Imagine the damage to other switch-ins that don't meet those criteria and you're looking at a ferocious blunt-object tank. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'd rather Hawk throw up a Substitute 90% of the time on its first turn out than a 120 BP STAB move with tremendous neutral coverage. At least Focus Blast has an immunity to work against and more viable resists in the current metagame that aren't subsequently destroyed by its other STAB.

Even so, a 30% chance to completely cede momentum by missing should be enough to see that the move will only serve as a distraction from the concept. And does Rain need another abuser? Would the metagame appreciate this sort of thing, concept or not? What I'm saying is that Hurricane is both too powerful and too unnecessary while at the same time being a special-attacking Flying / Fighting-type fanboy's wet dream. If it's Allowed, it will in all likelihood be a soft-requirement for any movepool submitter hoping to win the poll, in the process skewing Tomohawk's presence in the metagame to a more offensive direction than I think anyone really wants.
 
Actually, as I re-read my post and read your post, I actually agree that Hurricane should be Disallowed, also due to the low accuracy. Like you said, a move like Hurricane with a 30% miss chance will just serve as a distraction from the concept. Why would we want to give a Tomohawk an unreliable move when the concept is to reliably get momentum back or maintain it in many situations. So even though technically, I still feel the move is held back by it's shaky accuracy, which balances out the move, it's the unreliable accuracy in turn that is a potential hazard in fulfilling it's concept.

(So I disagree on it being overpowered due to the 70% accuracy, which balances the 120 BP out, somewhat, and at the same time I do agree on it being a liability to the concept, again because of that same 70% accuracy :P)
 
Korski said:
Even so, a 30% chance to completely cede momentum by missing should be enough to see that the move will only serve as a distraction from the concept. And does Rain need another abuser?
Click to expand...
I agree with both of these, although in the case of the former I would always run Air Slash instead because I don't like using moves with less than 80% accuracy, so it wouldn't matter. I can only speak for me, though, I'm sure someone would use it if it was included, 120 power is still an attractive prospect.

To expand on the point of rain abuse, giving it Hurricane might make it too similar to Tornadus, who is more or less wearing a big sign that says "Put me on a rain team and spam Hurricane", which does distract from the concept.

While I'm unsure exactly how much putting giving it Hurricane would affect how it's used, it's better to be safe, so I agree that Hurricane should be Disallowed.
 
from what I can see, there is no detriment to allowing volt switch, and it only bolsters the concept. I say Included.

icy wind- I like the idea of despeeding set up sweepers and dragons.

heat wave- taking care of jirachi and spdef skarmory doesn't seem to cause problems at all.

hurricane- detracting from the concept is pretty big I say no.

still would like to hear more from people who don't like icy wind.
 
I don't care about Icy Wind, I think it should be included, just for the fact that it's really not that good of a move. Icy Wind is not affected by Prankster, after all.

So:
HP Ice does more damage.
Prankster Glare/Thunder Wave/etc. is more efficient at slowing people down, because of Prankster.

Of course the move has it's uses for combining the slowing down and the damaging into one, but it's not really good at damaging unless it's 4x effective, as 2x effective means 110 BP, while STAB Air Slash (which hits a lot neutrally) has 112.5 BP.
Of course, there is the slowing down, but actually giving a paralysis status is far more efficient at slowing down, since then, the effort won't be lost after the opponent switches (unless it's a Natural Cure user, of course.), not to mention the full paralysis chance.

So all in all, I feel Icy Wind is average at best. I could have some uses, for instance, against Thundurus, since he won't like having his speed down or being hit by an Ice attack, but Thundurus will hate a Thunder Wave or Glare even more, and it's not like you are going to completely destroy Thundurus with Icy Wind when both STABs hits NVE, and he can kill you with STAB Thunder(bolt), then Volt Change to restore his speed.

Like I said before, I feel we shouldn't push for things on the Disallowed list when they aren't breaking anything or straying away from the concept. I see no reason why Icy Wind should be disallowed. If you don't want it on the movepool, then make a movepool submission without Icy Wind, really.

So, Icy Wind for Allowed.
 
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