Piracy and Illegal Downloads

Actually I am not entirely sure it is completely legal to go on youtube.. Like, downloading copyrighted material that was uploaded by someone without the rights to, even through youtube may be illegal. It definitely used to be, I am unsure if this has been changed.

At least in some parts of the world.

Have a nice day.

He is referring to the ad-supported official videos on there, such as those from Vevo.

Speaking of which, I have to agree with the general thrust of his point- there have been many concessions made to pirates, with everything from DRM-free games to ad-supported full versions of movies/tv shows to very reasonably priced services like Netflix. And while these are popular, piracy is merely continuing to grow.

I agree that the best solutions to curtail privacy are those that are not heavy handed, but it seems to me that very little can compete with "free, no ads, on demand".
 
Im pretty anit-pirate, but if its something that I cant find in any of the rather empty Australian shops I consider downloading it. For example on this here computer I have VBA, Pokemon RBY, Crystal and even Emerald.
My brother is an idiot though and tried to download Harry Potter 7 Part 1, the thing is I banned him from downloading things, because we didnt have much Gigabytes left for the entire month, after he downloaded Simpsons Hit and Run, The Avengers whole season and Black Ops on PC even though he has it on PS3.

Yes my brother just found out you can do this kind of crap on the Internet, fucking idiot
 
Quite a few bands/artists are using Youtube to debunk this argument completely. It's completely legal (and very easy) to go on Youtube, load up their official channel and listen to their new album or single there. They profit in the process and you hear their song.

I know many smaller artists (and even some big ones) haven't done as such but let's say a band you get a bit interested in does this. Do you still think you're justified to download their stuff and put it on your MP3 player opposed to going to Youtube on your computer and going through their means?

It's still more inconvenient but I'm wondering what you're angle is on these cases.

Given that the music is legally on youtube, then that does provide a reasonable "try and buy" solution - I hadn't considered Youtube. But this just goes to show that bands don't need to sell their music to be successful any more: the internet is such a good way of getting exposure. Artists can still make money from gigs/merchandise, so as long as their music is still being played I don't see the problem.
 
it blows my mind that the music industry saw the then-burgeoning internet and said "guys, we're gonna fight this" instead of embracing it to bolster sales early on
 
*roll eyes* How can you possibly morally justify piracy?

I'm not saying I don't do it, nor that I think badly of people who do, it is simply not possible to make some justification that it's ethically "ok." You are taking ownership of someone else's possession against their permission. It doesn't matter what the long-term impact on the other party is, the fact that you took from them against their will doesn't change.

Now, whether you can feel "ok" about it is another story. People do wrongs that they can "feel ok" about on a daily basis. Whether it's telling white lies, or tipping a few bucks less than 15%, people wrong each other all the time, and no one lives a life completely without "sin." On a practical basis, it really is about "what you can live with."

If you think it's not wrong to do piracy, you're kidding yourself no matter your justification. It's definitely wrong.

How wrong though? Frankly I would put internet piracy and white lying on a similar ethic scale-- ie. not that big a deal frankly. Reasoning like Cookie and other's certainly can't erase the fact that it's wrong, but it does put internet piracy on a very low level of wrong doing. The impact on the other party does come into play when considering the ethical weight of theft. Stealing a cookie from a cookie jar, or a single chocolate from your brother's trick-or-treat bag is not a big deal. Neither is downloading audio off of youtube really (something that is surprisingly easy to do I might ad...).

The potential legal repercussions are irrelevant, as legal weight and ethical weight are decidedly different. Still, however light the ethical weight may be, the fact that it's wrong doesn't change.
 
*roll eyes* How can you possibly morally justify piracy?

I'm not saying I don't do it, nor that I think badly of people who do, it is simply not possible to make some justification that it's ethically "ok." You are taking ownership of someone else's possession against their permission. It doesn't matter what the long-term impact on the other party is, the fact that you took from them against their will doesn't change.

Actually, you're not taking ownership of someone else's possession. You're breaching a legal right they have, but you're not actually taking possession of anything they own, nor are you depriving them of anything they own.

The potential legal repercussions are irrelevant, as legal weight and ethical weight are decidedly different. Still, however light the ethical weight may be, the fact that it's wrong doesn't change.

Actually, I'd say it's more legally wrong than ethically wrong.

The principle governing copyright, and originally intellectual property generally, is to incentivize creation and innovation. In patent law, the innovation is one of practical utility, driving growth in technology and so forth. Copyright, however, was intended to give incentives to artists to create their works. It was thought that if you did not give such rights to artists, then they would be unable to produce their artistry and thus the society would be deprived of a cultural asset.

Originally, copyright was set up to last for the life of the author plus fifty years, but the USA essentially forced a change to seventy years when it was realised that the copyright over Mickey Mouse was due to lapse. This retroactive restriction to keep Mickey Mouse out of the public domain has NO ethical justification. It cannot act as an incentive because it applies to works that were already created.

Furthermore, there was not a shortage of cultural work production when the change was made. It's not like potential artists everywhere were saying "Wow, I would spend my time making this new song, but it's only economically exclusively exploitable for fifty years; I need at least another twenty years to make it worth my while to make it.". This was simply the US Government pandering to Disney Ltd., and subsequently the rest of the recording/digital media industries.

As a further erosion, it is now extremely rare for the authors themselves to actually get more than a pittance from sales of their work to consumers. Almost all the time, the bulk of the money is paid to a record company or large conglomerate, who acquire the copyrights from the artist in the first place for a lump sum. Once that lump sum is paid, the impact of piracy on the artist is negligible.

Finally, the empirical evidence shows that the economic copyrights are NOT essential to incentivise people to create. People put their garage band music on YouTube with no commercial prospects all the time. Artists create typically because they are passionate about what they do, not because they see it as a good value proposition. This is emphasised further by the separate legal protection for non-alienable so-called 'moral rights', distinct from the economic rights of 'copyright' which relate to attribution, no false-attribution, no substantial altering (although this one causes problems with the concepts of property; you're not allowed to buy a painting, then alter it yourself, but there's no rule against you destroying your own property so setting fire to the painting would be fine).

So ultimately: these days, particularly with how various governments have expanded it to cover things it shouldn't (computer code, for instance, is protected as a literary work even though that contradicts numerous fundamental principles about copyright) and pandered to special interest groups, typically ones who have failed to protect their intellectual property in the proper means (registered designs, patents), copyright is not only not a particularly strong moral requirement, but can actually be reasonably argued as immoral due to it's widespread use to deprive society access to what it would ordinarily have.
 
@ownership--If you have music on your computer, on your iPod, as a consumer, you own the music. You have unarguably made it your possession, against the will of the creator/owner/distributor. Don't bend my words, you're just dodging the point. It's still "wrong."

@Legal-v-ethical-- It's DEFINITELY more legally wrong than ethically wrong. Ethically, like I'd said I'd put in on a similar level as cookie jar theft.
 
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@Legal-v-ethical-- It's DEFINITELY more legally wrong than ethically wrong. Ethically, like I'd said I'd put in on a similar level as cookie jar theft.

that's a stupid analogy because it's not the same type of theft: you're not removing the original. Also, how many artists actually care if their music gets pirated? The ONLY opinions against music piracy I've ever heard are from the some of the consumers, RIAA et al and Lars Ulrich. Because if they don't, then it's not "ethically wrong". In fact, two examples that spring to mind are Weird Al and System of a Down, whom I get the impression from that they actually don't care (the former has already been mentioned and the latter's third studio released was titled "Steal This Album"). The idea that pirating music is wrong because it's against the artists' wishes is a frivolous assumption.

Artists care about three things at most: making money, making music and getting people to listen to their music. Of the three only the last one might be affected by piracy, but guess what? More piracy=more people listening. There's the issue that piracy reducing sales deters record companies from giving contracts to bands but is that a problem? All that does it provide an expensive way of getting music into the mainstream, when all this shit can be done a lot more cheaply over the internet these days. The internet may have destroyed buying music, but it replaced it with something even better.

Record companies are running scared because the internet has removed their influence on the music industry, and they were too stupid to see this coming or do something before it was too late. Time and again people try to quash illegal activity (like they tried when they sued Napster) but it just doesn't work. What the fuck happened? KaZaA sprung up, Limewire, torrenting etc. If the music industry had embraced file downloads they *might* have been able to get a shoe-in by offering mp3 downloads in a time when people when paying for music was still the norm. Now? Forget it. It's like trying to ban alcohol when we've been drinking it since the dawn of agriculture, even if it is more damaging than half the stuff that's illegal.
 
benn jordan is a noted musician who's stated he would much rather people torrent his music than buy it on itunes. he's uploaded all of his own albums to the pirate bay iirc.

i don't really pirate music, although i could i suppose. i think it's just that i've got plenty of paid-for music as it is; it's not very common for me to go "oh i wish i had x".

i don't pirate software because i only use the free kind to begin with!

i will admit to pirating movies, especially older ones, because they tend to be difficult to get. and, even if i were to rent them, none of my money would go to the producer anyway...
 
I used to pirate a lot from software, music, movies, to Wii ISO's, but now I cut down on pirating. I still pirate music, movies, and sometimes software but I don't pirate games anymore since getting a PS3 (back then there were no PS3 homebrew; don't know how effective it is now). I even bought a legit copy of Pokemon Black.
 
that's a stupid analogy because it's not the same type of theft.

Did I say it was an analogy? No. Did I even use it as an analogy? No.

I was just speaking of degrees of ethical weight (triviality), and used it as an example of an act I think has similar ethical weight. Type doesn't matter-- I also used "white lying" in the same light.

Also, it doesn't matter what you personally think the overall financial analysis/marketing strategy is/should be: if you're taking the product against the will of the supplier without permission, it's definitely wrong. What makes it ethically wrong is not the loss (or lack of loss) of the money-- but the act of taking without permission.
 
Also, it doesn't matter what you personally think the overall financial analysis/marketing strategy is/should be: if you're taking the product against the will of the supplier without permission, it's definitely wrong. What makes it ethically wrong is not the loss (or lack of loss) of the money-- but the act of taking without permission.

Fair enough, at which point I will say that wrong or right are completely arbitrary and meaningless concepts once the consequences of the actions are removed from consideration, which is what you do if you remove the financial analysis and just look at the morality of the act itself. What I might consider right carries no more or less weight than anyone else's views.

Also, is the supplier the artist or the record company here? I don't know how buying rights works, because my initial assumption was that you were pirating from artists, which I've already debunked.
 
I don't really think that most piracy is hurting the market for music and books. If you couldn't torrent 10000 songs would you buy them instead? No way, not even at 99 cents per song, or even 10 cents per song would you pay for them. What would end up happening is that you would borrow CDs from your friends (because someone would buy it) and then burn them or store the song files in itunes or w.e. Books are free at the library, but you don't see people getting sued for checking out contemporary fiction, or for borrowing their friends CDs. The law is blatantly hypocritical. How do files get put on bittorrent? Originally someone paid for the content (bought the CD or audio book) bittorrent is a file sharing program, I feel like there is this misconception that bittorrents are stolen or like hacked off of someone's computer and then put on the internet.
 
i pirate everything music, movies, shows, games, programs and porn, or rather i did until i ran out of room. working on a new external harddrive.

iv used all the arguments on this page. songs are expensive. they support an obsolete distribution system that cuts out the artists. iv become more cultured, more learned. cds have drms that suck. the distributions companies are nameless faceless entities that are kind of stupid. im poor and i want to experience this content. i want to see this movie, and i want to listen to that song, and i am but a poor student.

but the main point is that i dont consider it stealing if there is essentially an infinite supply of it. if i "steal" a song, it isnt like i have it and no one else does. the song is still there infinitely, for EVERYONE else in the world to enjoy for free as well. So yeah, i dont feel bad.
 
I'm not pirating to prove a point, I'm pirating so I can listen to the music I like in good quality. I pirate music all the time, I have several hundred GB (and that's nothing on what some people here have T_T I need an ext. HDD though) of pirated stuff, most of which is music and the rest of which is games, movies, manga, software, anime/Western TV shows, and books. Mostly just books and games and music, though I guess I'm building up a lot of software, price-wise. The only TV show (other than anime, and most dubs suck, if the anime you want to watch is even dubbed...) I watch is available in good quality on the Fox site anyway, I think. The others don't even show here. Hmm... I do pirate books very often, but that's because I can't get them in the library :p. I don't know a single person who would prefer an ebook if they could have a good physical copy.

I pirate handheld games a lot, particularly ones I'd have to pay a lot to import, but I still buy them every now and then, especially if something nice comes with the game (e.g. figurines). I don't play console games very often anymore anyway.

I'm not gonna justify it as fighting the power or anything. Piracy is way more convenient for me and, like Kinneas, I don't really care about execs, but I do care about the things I am culturally exposed to. I just wanna listen to the music I like, read the books I like, play the games I like, partake in the things my friends are partaking /shrug. As a note, I live in Australia, so a lot of it is only available via the internet.

I do share Cory Doctorow's opinion on piracy (he summed it up as: better a circus tent full of non-paying viewers than an empty one!), but I'm not even going to pretend I'm doing it to rebel. I know all the arguments, I'm just not going to try to justify it as some kind of crusade when mostly it is based out of pure selfishness (and a bit of spite in some cases) lol. I do think the online music industry is bullshit though (screws over both the artists and the consumers) and if I was going to spend my valuable money, it sure wouldn't be on that. Mediocre-quality songs with DRM at a ridiculous price, when I can get it in good quality, free, and unrestricted? No, thank you. I would rather buy the CD than that and physically own it so I can do whatever I like with it (+ liner notes and miscellanea). In fact, I do own a decent amount of CDs, though most of those I picked up when I had dialup xD

I actually might have paid for Spotify because I thought it was a really good endeavour, but it's never coming out in Australia anyway and it's going to die eventually now there's a listening restriction on free accounts. Thanks a lot, major record labels.

I don't see it as morally wrong, just legally wrong, and don't get me started on that. I am not taking anyone's possession, I'm just copying it for myself (since I'm a fan of torrenting, other people too. Sharing is caring!). I'm not even trying to justify it to myself, I just... don't see how it's wrong, morally? If I was taking the music from someone's house and distributing it, that would be wrong. Legally, however, it does have some pretty severe implications if you actually get caught and punished (I don't mean 'cease or desist' letters). The RIAA is the main culprit. I'm sure we've heard all about those people who were made an example of and told to pay what equated to basically a few hundred thousand a song, so I won't bother linking articles.

cookie's post about pirating from the artists was pretty good, +1 on that.

Oh, and it's not like I'd be buying music if I couldn't pirate it; I'd just be listening to less music (or just doing on YT). An illegal download isn't a legal purchase in a parallel universe. I think a lot of hardcore music pirates (this is my experience on private torrenting sites anyway /anecdotal) are fans who will go to concerts, buy merchandise, etc. though that might just be the case for the people I've run into. If I lived nearer to a metro area I'd be going to concerts too, so I'd be able to cite myself as an example of someone who doesn't just 'take' from the music industry.
 
@ your last point, Jumpluff: My copyright lecturer informs me that the sector of the public that pirates the most also contributes the most towards music purchases, tours, etc.
 
@ownership--If you have music on your computer, on your iPod, as a consumer, you own the music. You have unarguably made it your possession, against the will of the creator/owner/distributor. Don't bend my words, you're just dodging the point. It's still "wrong."

@Legal-v-ethical-- It's DEFINITELY more legally wrong than ethically wrong. Ethically, like I'd said I'd put in on a similar level as cookie jar theft.

My point wasn't that you don't own it. My point was what you own is not their possession. Copyright is a separate piece of property to the music itself; it's an intangible bundle of rights. You can infringe those rights, which may or may not be morally or legally wrong, but the actual digital object, the piece of music you now own did not exist before and so it was not something in their possession.
 
@ your last point, Jumpluff: My copyright lecturer informs me that the sector of the public that pirates the most also contributes the most towards music purchases, tours, etc.

that's very interesting, not to say it was unexpected. I frequent a lot of concerts that visit and I must say Shanghai has a surprisingly decent music scene. When I hear that a band is coming I usually go torrent (if I don't know them already) some of their music, perhaps an album or two and take a listen, if I like what I hear, I go.
 
I'll add a +1 to the piracy increases revenue for artists crowd. I've been to a ton of concerts which is where the bands I listen to have said themselves they make their money from. Streetlight Manifesto has a particularly bad relationship with their label Victory Records. They've gone so far as to beg fans to only buy their albums off of their personal website or at shows because they make absolutely nothing off sales from iTunes, Amazon and like sites, and brick-and-mortar stores. But if that is true that artists don't make their money from CD sales and make it from concerts and merch sales I can say that in a world without piracy the artists I like would be screwed. If I had to choose between spending my money on their CDs and their concerts I'd pick the CD. How am I to know if I like the artist enough to go to their show without owning the CD?

As far as more anecdotal evidence goes and a funny story: I went to a Mustard Plug concert a few years back and some shitty opening act called Left Alone gave a big rant about "Don't Pirate! Support your scene!" Like anyone would pay to listen to them suck. Then the Voodoo Glow Skulls, a much better band, come out and at the end of their set the front man says, "Man, I love you guys. This is what we do this for. To have you guys come out and party with us. So if you'd all go buy our CDs at our merch table and come back next year we'd be thankful. In fact, if just one of you bought it, and gave a copy to everyone you know so that more people would be back next year, that'd be even better!"
 
I'm not really with it when it comes to popular music, but a friend of mine was telling me a band (Radiohead, maybe?) put their last album for sale on their website at a price of 'big whatever you feel like' and made more money per-sale (or per-download, or whatever the relevant metric was) than they did with each of their previous albums.
 
Actually since then they released another album online and charged 4 pounds for it.. So it seems like maybe the results were exaggerated, and this time they felt they needed more.

Have a nice day.
 
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